Kirby Character Matchup Discussion

[Sushiman]

Direct orders from Gimpy, the new Kirby Forum Overlord. You can close the other one.

To start things off: I've only played a few characters with Kirby, and I just couldn't get rid of Samus. Once she spams her bombs everywhere, it's hard to land a hit. . . and that dtilt of her's really packs a punch.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

well..... meh, i suppose this works, i dont like the other thread so bye bye old thread. discuss yoru matchups here guys. yeayuhhz

 

[nitro-blazer]

Samus is a pain. It's safe to say that most Kirby's have troubles with her. Even once you get past the wall of missiles, you need to deal with those boots. Also, the screw attack can throw you off as well. Samus is ready to defend herself at close range and afar. She's also floaty, meaning aerial hammer and Down throw lose effectiveness. She also has a mean crouch cancel.

However, there are SOME things you can use. See that Back air of yours? It eats missiles (But nothings stopping her from using Charge beam or a physical attack, so stay on your toes). Also, while Samus has an amazing recovery, it's also predictable. If you have her power, you can eat her, if not her bombs, with the charge beam. You also have the ability to jump out and, personally Back air her. Be warned, she's not completely defenseless. The N-air will send you back with a good amount of damage. But, if you're good at predicting, you can get her while she can't do squat. Now, when the Samus is close to the edge, about grapple range, here's how to position yourself. Face into the edge, close enough to it so you can easily sweetspot the D-smash on the non-sweetspotted jump, grapple, or screw attack. However, if they shoot the grapple, hit the ledge, wavedash back onto it, ledgehop D-air (Without moving back onto the stage.) Do this so it hit's them I'd say a ledge drop would work better, but be careful not to fastfall it.

I always copy her power. While she still has missiles and bombs over you, at least you have one projectile to alleviate the pressure. It's also a decent kill move, and an okay edgeguard. It's one of my favourites alongside the lasers (Falco), and pills (<3 Floating pill spam). Oh, and Ness' PK Flash is the best move to copy, no doubt.

This is from my expirience, and I'm not sure how well it will work on most expirienced Samus', though.

 

[Sushiman]

Kirby should be very defensive when it comes to Samus, because every one of her moves is essentially a "counter" attack. The best way to advance on Samus is to crouch slide (wavedash while crouching). When she starts unsmashing her missile, shield or dodge it. Make her advance. You have to be careful when you try to swallow her, too. If you miss, you'll eat her missiles or her nair. Nairs really hurt if they get you at the foot. Never ever dthrow her if the Samus is experienced against Kirbys.

A problem I have against Samus is while im hanging off the edge. Dtilt kills if I stay there too long, so if the Samus is experienced at edgeguarding, it'll be a tough fight to get back up. (Swallow only works the first few times before they catch on)

Basically, you'll have a better chance of winning if you stay on the defensive side if you're up against an experienced Samus. (Well, according to my experiences agaisnt my best friend's Samus)

 

[nitro-blazer]

Getting up from the edge? If all else fails, ledgehopped airdodge is an okay maneuver. She's too floaty for aerial hammer from the edge... You could try a ledgehopped aerial every once in awhile.

 

[Nashun]

Make her advance.

Almost impossible. If Samus doesn't want to approach, she won't approach. There's nothing Kirby can really do about it other than approach her himself. How do you make her advance if you have pretty much nothing in your disposal to do so? She has missiles and charge beams, you have an uber-laggy final cutter. Unfortunately, Kirby's going to be doing most of the approaching in this matchup unless you're playing against a really aggressive Samus.

If not, you're going to be dodging missiles forever and she has 8 minutes to hit you just once. Once you have that disadvantage, you're going to have to approach yourself because you need to be able to hit her.

 

[nitro-blazer]

She has missiles and charge beams, you have an uber-laggy final cutter.

If you already have it, you do have the charge beam. However, this should NEVER be used to force an approach. Samus still out spams you in every way. It shuld only be used to help alleviate spamming.

 

[Sushiman]

Almost impossible. If Samus doesn't want to approach, she won't approach.

If you're facing a relatively newb Samus, she will get impatient while you dodge the missles. . .?



Upthrow works very well on her. Maybe it's just me (since I play my friend's Samus way too much), but I'm able to time and go in for a grab more than usual.

 

[t!MmY]

Kirby vs Samus (SSBM)

Mention this match-up to any Kirby main (all six of them, lol j/k) and you'll pretty much get the same jaded response (*groan*). Samus has been voted as Kirby's biggest counter by the majority of Kirby players out there, and for good reasons.

First of all, any character who has a projectile automatically has an advantage on Kirby. This being because the only pseudo-projectile Kirby always has access to is his Final Cutter, which does diddly-squat when facing Short-Hopped Lasers, Needle Storms, or even Luigi Fireballs. If Kirby attempts to use Final Cutter (Up+B) as a projectile, it has a terrible start-up; a predictable path; and, perhaps the worst part, if Kirby gets hit he'll lose all his jumps.

Now, without a reliable projectile to hide behind, advance with, or otherwise spam, Kirby pretty much is forced to move in close. And looking at all the long-range options Samus has, missile-cancelling, two varieties of missiles, and even morphball bombs, it's a wonder that Kirby can get close at all. Since he's slow, he has to rely on his ability to duck under projectiles, jump, or otherwise dodge until he can make his way close enough to become a threat.

You might think that since Kirby is lacking in the long-ranged department that he would be a great close-quarters fighter, or at least have some tricks or advantages while up close to help out. Well, forget that; Samus has far more options and better attacks than Kirby could ever compete with. The bane of Kirby is simply Samus' power in relation to Kirby's light weight and easy-to-combo marshmellow body. Practically anything Samus hits Kirby with will send him off the stage, launch him into an aerial, or out-right KO him. Combine this with Samus' outrageous crouch-cancel (usually into d-smash), and you've got yourself a bona fide Kirby Counter.

So how is Kirby suppose to fight against Samus? Well, there are a few things Kirby's got up his non-existant sleeves. For one, he can be hard to hit with missiles while ducking - though this is only an on-the-spot remedy since good Samus players can send smash-missiles along the ground close enough to hit Kirby and not-so-good Samus players can just switch to homing-missiles. This can, however, open up opportunies to move within striking range of a missile-blasting Samus.

From there, you need to know thy enemy. If you expect your opponent to go offensive, prepare yourself for your counter attack. If you expect your opponent to go defensive, move in as appropriate with feints, draws, or the proper attack at the proper time. For instance, if you expect Samus to slide back, you could dash-dance to give the allure that you're moving in for an attack, and then back out of harms way (if you expect a F-smash). If you're facing a crouch-canceller, dash in for a grab (Short-Hopping into D-air can also work if you've got L-cancelling down pat).

Kirby has a few more saving graces that keep him from being completely helpless at the hands of Samus. For one, if you can get a Copy off on Samus, Kirby will then have access to a useful KOing move. Samus' charge beam will give him that much-needed long-ranged attack with the addition that when fully charged it can cut its way through missiles and still hit with enough oomph to KO. Also, Samus is sort of slow in the air, which at least gives Kirby time to go offensive. The Up-tilt combos into B-air and U-air nicely on Samus which can get her off the stage where she has to focus on recover rather than firing off missiles. In fact, KOing Samus is so much easier when she's off the stage because one Kirby d-air can spike her far enough down that even a Meteor Cancel won't get her back up.

So, even though it's debatable whether or not Samus is Kirby's Number One counter, it's guarenteed that Samus has enough advantages to be high on his list.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

horay for good discussion! *hands out gold stars*

 

[t!MmY]

*blasts off to Dreamland on his gold star*

 

[Sushiman]

That's a nice mini-guide, t!mmy. If everyone contributes, we could make a Samus guide for Kirby!

Quick question: If you shuffle your aerials while the Samus is cc-ing, will you be able to grab her/dtilt fast enough before she dtilts you? And does this mean that if you don't L-cancel, will you get punished?

 

[Yokoson]

Smash = RPS (Rock, Paper, Scisors)
Attack -> Grab
Grab -> Shield
Shield -> Attack

Samus' bane is in her weak grab. Either they don't do it at all, only do it situationally (out of the "sure bet" combo), or they mind game it on conservation.
Her weaken Grab greatly weakens the trifecta of "whose better than who, we're equall thanks to everyone else". Because of this you gain strength in Shielding.

Long range - You assure you're worth by dodging the linear attacks
Close range - Not a terribly good place to be thanks the new "Bail Out" (Up-B) action button. Unless the attack is on til the break of dawn don't get stuck up this Muddle.

Mid rage - GOLDEN TIME! Just far enough away that you can take an advantage if Samus should decide to launch a projectile. This position also lies right outside of Samus' good MELEE attacks. Sure Kirby can't exactly wail out damage at this position either but one of two things will happen

1. The Samus will foolishly still feel safe from this position and will do something to compromise her position. From which you counter.
2. The Samus will wisely re-position herself elsewhere. From which you negotiate/mindgame space.

Oh and own the zone. Super attacks, blah blah blah.

 

[Samochan]

That's a nice mini-guide, t!mmy. If everyone contributes, we could make a Samus guide for Kirby!

Quick question: If you shuffle your aerials while the Samus is cc-ing, will you be able to grab her/dtilt fast enough before she dtilts you? And does this mean that if you don't L-cancel, will you get punished?

Nah, you don't have any time to land a grab before she can dsmash or dtilt you away. Good samus will immediately dsmash you and kirby can't even shield that in time. ._. The best thing against samus would be the dair flip, where you negate the opponents cc via cancelling the extra hit from kirby's dair with proper spacing and DI back from your part.

 

[t!MmY]

It's been my experience that if you L-cancel you will be safe from a CCing Samus, but not to the point that you're guarenteed to land a hit/grab on someone who can CCC well. What I do instead is counter the counter by shielding Dsmash/Dtilts, or if I want to be especially safe I'll roll/sidestep to the frame (using the C-stick).

Against players that don't have scary CCC timing, I can land anything from a jab to a tilt on them (maybe even a d-smash). So, it's mostly figuring out the timing of your opponent and responding appropriately.

(CC = Crouch Cancel, and CCC = Crouch Cancel Counter, in case anyone is unfamiliar with those acronyms)

 

[Samochan]

It's been my experience that if you L-cancel you will be safe from a CCing Samus, but not to the point that you're guarenteed to land a hit/grab on someone who can CCC well. What I do instead is counter the counter by shielding Dsmash/Dtilts, or if I want to be especially safe I'll roll/sidestep to the frame (using the C-stick).

Against players that don't have scary CCC timing, I can land anything from a jab to a tilt on them (maybe even a d-smash). So, it's mostly figuring out the timing of your opponent and responding appropriately.

(CC = Crouch Cancel, and CCC = Crouch Cancel Counter, in case anyone is unfamiliar with those acronyms)

Good samus players can and should have scary ccc'ing timing, at least coco has, so I don't really bother with dair anymore unless I learn the dair flip trick. ._.

 

[kirbykid]

Smash = RPS (Rock, Paper, Scisors)
Attack -> Grab
Grab -> Shield
Shield -> Attack

Samus' bane is in her weak grab. Either they don't do it at all, only do it situationally (out of the "sure bet" combo), or they mind game it on conservation.
Her weaken Grab greatly weakens the trifecta of "whose better than who, we're equall thanks to everyone else". Because of this you gain strength in Shielding.

Long range - You assure you're worth by dodging the linear attacks
Close range - Not a terribly good place to be thanks the new "Bail Out" (Up-B) action button. Unless the attack is on til the break of dawn don't get stuck up this Muddle.

Mid rage - GOLDEN TIME! Just far enough away that you can take an advantage if Samus should decide to launch a projectile. This position also lies right outside of Samus' good MELEE attacks. Sure Kirby can't exactly wail out damage at this position either but one of two things will happen

1. The Samus will foolishly still feel safe from this position and will do something to compromise her position. From which you counter.
2. The Samus will wisely re-position herself elsewhere. From which you negotiate/mindgame space.

Oh and own the zone. Super attacks, blah blah blah.

Yokosan is exactly right.

For some reason, every hater in this thread thinks kirby is outmatched because of possibilities. I doubt you guys know samus or kirby that well.

For the same reason people think playing noobs is hard because you can't tell what they're going to do, you've lost the ability to adapt to the current situation.

Every weakness can be a mind game. It's up to you to stay flexible.

When you try to force the moves you worked so hard figuring out in a situation that doen't call for it, you lose and lose big.

 

[t!MmY]

Samus is actually quite easy to beat if you grab the Smash Emblem before she does. Cooking her in pot of stew is practically a guarenteed KO.

<_<
>_>

 

[Sushiman]

Too bad competitive people don't set items on. If they were on and we could play on Big Blue, we'd be at the top of the tier list!

What is the best way to eat away at Samus' bombs?

 

[Samochan]

Too bad competitive people don't set items on. If they were on and we could play on Big Blue, we'd be at the top of the tier list!

What is the best way to eat away at Samus' bombs?

Bair, otherwise you just get hit. I recommend avoiding those alltogether, dangerous stuff you know. ;<

 

[Sushiman]

Bair, otherwise you just get hit. I recommend avoiding those alltogether, dangerous stuff you know. ;<

Hmm, Final Cutter seems to work just fine. The problem is that Samus will run away using bombs in order to stop me in my tracks. Me, being the aggressive Kirby I am, will usually run in the bombs trying to hit him. This happens when he's bomb-hopping back to the stage. I attempt to airguard, but sometimes I get hit due to the bombs.

 

[t!MmY]

Final Cutter can take a Samus player by suprise especially if they drop more than one bomb and the projectile hits them while they're busy. Avoiding them altogether is, of course, the safest way of handling them, but Samus usually spams them when ahead in stock/dmg and has turned coward, so staying away is what she wants.

Running right into the bombs as she bomb-jumps during recovery is effective. Make sure to make Pac-Man noises as you gobble them up. "Wakka-wakka-wakka" or "Puk-puk-puk" depending on Language settings. Lol.

 

[QERB]

The only advice i would give is to NOT play against samus on FD or a stage with no platforms since it gives samus more room to "run" and spam crap. It also makes it hard to u-air her which I think is probably the easiest way to kill her.

 

[Sushiman]

Ahh, I hate this! I played Samus again today, and he kept cc -> dtilt-ing me when I try to land an aeriel. I don't even land, so I can't L-cancel and do anything. I get him sometimes, but he usually succeeds.

In the end, I usually get 2-stocked.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

gimpy's a mod for like half a day and the most useful topic on the kirby boards springs up due to his demand. man i'm good.

since this is a character discussion topic, anyone have any questions regarding the NON samus matchup? XD

 

[nitro-blazer]

Kirby/Falco. Even with my lasers he outspams me, and he ***** my close game with shines.

 

[Sushiman]

I hate falco as well. Doesn't Kirby's utilt have more priority than his Dair?

 

[Nashun]

I think you have to time the utilt perfectly for it to beat out the Dair. try to make the tip of Kirby's toe hit falco.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

to be perfectly honest relying on your up tilt to take on falco's dair is ridiculous, falco is to fast and approaches with lasers, you intend on dropping your shield into an up tilt against falcos ridiculously fast down air out of the blaster than be my guest, even if you are just trying to do it while he is above you its really hard to do lol

keep yourself low with ducking wavedashes try to get some random dtilts in, you've got a good grab if you can get them get them, DONT WASTE YOUR JUMPS in an attempt to approach falco lol it just seems obvious but some people dont really know. anyways, i dont really play kirby very much anymore just throwing stuff out there haha

 

[Nashun]

=O who said anything about relying on utilt? XD I was just answering his priority question.

keep yourself low with ducking wavedashes try to get some random dtilts in, you've got a good grab if you can get them get them, DONT WASTE YOUR JUMPS in an attempt to approach falco lol it just seems obvious but some people dont really know. anyways, i dont really play kirby very much anymore just throwing stuff out there haha

Ftilt would be better in stopping Falco's approach since it covers a lot more area and because there's a bit more knockback. Just keep on moving and dodging the lasers with wavedashes and when you can finally get close you can throw in an ftilt. Crouching only gets rid of the lasers and IIRC Falco can grab crouching Kirby. It's much better to stay moving rather than trying to get in a D-tilt. If Kirby REALLY has to keep still, IMO it's still bad to crouch since shielding is much better in a lot of situations.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Copying the lasers is a good idea, in my expirience.

Fortunately, Falco is relatively easy to edgeguard. Not as predictable as some people, but his bad recovery often means he doesn't have the ability to mess around. One off-stage Back air and he's dead. Just be wary of the phantasm spike. It's extremely easy to avoid, and It's not hard to cancel, especially with Kirby. However, If he does hit it with you, he gets to do the edgeguarding, so place you're attack well.

Down-air can't hit him out of illusion, and often trades blows with Firefalco. I'd suggest sticking to the Back-air when possible.

Onstage, one D-smash should do him in if he doesn't tech it.

It's on the stage that I've got the problems. His D-tilt and his shine wreck your crouch cancel,

 

[t!MmY]

If you're playing against Falco, it's either going to be a good Falco - which pwns Kirby - or a not good Falco - which can be a lot of fun.

Against the not good Falco, approach by sliding under his laser spam (the Not Good Falco loves to laser spam). Don't rush in for an attack once you're close because the NG Falco will go for his "unbeatable pillar combo".

It shouldn't be too hard to entice him into a D-air, it being "unbeatable" and all. When he does, he may or may not short-hop it. Either way, evade by sliding back, rolling forward, or whatever you think works best, and hit him with an aerial attack. The most obvious attack to land would be a SHFFL'd F-air, which you can usually combo into a grab, d-throw, tech-chase.

You'll get him off the stage eventually. From there, B-air his Up-B or Forward-B recovery and he's pretty much KO'd. D-air and Swallowcide can work too, but are more flashy than utilitarian. D-smash works great since Kirby's feet are invincible during some of the attack.

Copy his laser if you want, it's pretty fun to use. The Triple Laser is pretty useful, as is fast-falling a Laser blast into a jab, tilt, smash, or grab. The trick is catching Falco in a Swallow - and even then a Swallowcide may be more beneficial.

If you're playing against a good Falco, you just have to do one thing: make sure you're a hundred times better than he is.

Kirby vs Falco (Singles)
Kirby vs Falco (Doubles)

 

[Winston]

Er, is your opponent in those videos supposed to be a "good falco" or "bad falco"?

 

[t!MmY]

Well, seeing as Kirby came out the victor, the answer should be obvious.

 

[QERB]

Dunno if this is the right time to move to a different character matchup, but the falco matchup seems to be dying out so....

Marth! He completely outranges kirby and the tipper makes quick use of him too. At least he cant juggle kirby very well, and it's not too difficult for kirby to edgeguard marth with things like the "death to marth manuever (copyright t!mmy) or disrupting marth's over-b slashes when he's recovering.

Recovering against marth isn't the easiest task either. With his d-tilt pokes and f-smash (of course), kirby has to be pretty creative with air-dodging to get around it.

Too bad when you copy marth's power all you get is a little pocketknife.....any thoughts?

 

[t!MmY]

The Death to Marth Maneuver hasn't a thing to do with edgeguarding. You must be thinking of The Marth Trick, by Kirbyofnurgle.

The real problem in this match up is that Marth can kill Kirby really easily, and Kirby has to work to take out a Marth stock. At least, Kirby has a few things to use in this fight. These include using spacing/timing to foil Marth's insane reach and disrupting his recovery to kill him as soon as possible.

Recovering against Marth shouldn't be too hard. If he doesn't sweetspot you, Kirby will likely go in an upward direction since Marth doesn't "pseudo-spike" with attacks (like Sheik's f-air). This is advantageous when recovering as it gives you the option to go over his head, fake him out and go for the ledge, recover low, etc. Going for the ledge is pretty risky due to Marth's nasty edge guarding (f-smashes, d-tilts, d-air, etc). If you're observant, you can tell what you might expect from him. Use Kirby's jumps to stall and fake him out until you see a safe timing to get back to the stage.

Marth's shield breaker - in Kirby's hands - is really pathetic. -.-

 

[psykoplympton]

Useing crouch can go a long way on marth especially because he cant grab you and if your right next to him and crouchoing his moves will miss you. I find marth one of my easiest matchups because i know his one kill move, f-smash. so i know which move to look out for.

 

[Sushiman]

Why aren't there any t!mmy (Kirby) VS t0mmy (Pichu) videos? Now that would be a real fight.

 

[t!MmY]

Hm, I don't play Kirby vs t0mmy's Pichu very much, but I've always felt they were sort of lugubrious fights. Kirby is slow and weak, and Pichu is easy to kill. But I've had people asking, so maybe we'll take a few matches and upload them soon. Money Matches even!

 

[rm88]

This thread is very useful ^_^ Thanks guys! my friends use mostly Samus and Falco and now I can beat them most of the times, now my BIG problem is Sheik... any suggestions?