Hello Samus players, fans, enthusiast alike. Some of you may remember me from brawl some may not know me at all. I just wanted to let you all know I just picked up project M and fell in love with Samus all over again! This to me is the most perfect she's ever been and I plan on repping her at some tourny's this year in Project M with my brother Shugo. I have read many of the threads on here already on. Samus' tricks and techs and believe I picked it up all very quick seeing as I am a very seasoned melee and brawl Samus player this is just the right mix I think for me to pick her up quick on Project M. I am open to any Samus mains advice on anything regarding her in Project M. This is my most beloved smash character and wish to represent her the best I can when I do my first tourny's in years. I believe I got a good grasp on her now just need to practice her advance techs a Little more to get it down more naturally. One big worry I have is match up practice. I only have a few friends to play with regularly. Is wifi a good match up practice option or is it too laggy? If wifi is a good option perhaps we can play a few rounds so you guys can critique my playing and let me know where I'm going to run into trouble. Thanks for reading and all input welcome I look forward to it! Let us band together to show everyone that Samus is a formidable smash contender!
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KingChaos' return!
- Thread starter KingChaos
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Personally, I would never recommend anyone play on wifi because it is too laggy to get a good idea of another characters potential, also it gives you more time to think because it does lag, so its not a good representation of the faster paced game when you play it against someone else in person. While yes her moves are more similar to the brawl version of samus, her movement for the most part resembles melee samus. So when you are developing your metagame, you should base it largely around how melee samus moves, but do not forget to incorporate the zair for zoning, and morph ball crawl for those tougher match ups that seem unwinable, (kirby, MK, Mario, Ivysaur, deedeedee, and zelda are all really tough). Personally, I have not been able to find a practice use for the ice moveset unless its to get a quick kill with the ice fair off a down throw, or just spaming ice fair/upsmash in doubles. Have fun with the character, learn your missile spams, and mastering movement and shield are your best friends in improving.
Playing on wifi has its positives and negatives. The biggest negative is that light trigger presses do not put up your shield, so combined with lag, you're going to have a lot of trouble timing your powershields. The lag itself is something of another negative, since your muscle memory is going to be thrown off. But on the plus side, not being able to rely on your technical ability will force you to learn two things that are valuable to have for tournament play. First off, you will learn to think ahead further than you would be if you were playing offline. When you come into offline play, you don't need to develop your situational awareness as much because it's really the only viable tool you have if you want to win online. Second, you will learn to be aware of what you can do, and be able to suppress what you want to do. Since oftentimes if you can consistently pivot fsmash offline, you might struggle to do it offline, you will need to be aware of this limitation offline, and not go for pivot fsmashes in that situation. When you take this awareness into the offline sphere, you'll be able to adapt to technical underperformance better, since you will be able to recognize when certain things aren't working like they should, and you'll be more prepared to change up your gameplan.
Practicing online will not help you to become a more technical player. If you have no other way to practice consistently against real people, then it is not so bad for practicing the mental side of playing the game, but you will absolutely have to supplement this with some dark room sessions to learn things like shield drops, pivot jabs/ftilts/fsmashes/dsmashes, cc jabs, etc.
Practicing online will not help you to become a more technical player. If you have no other way to practice consistently against real people, then it is not so bad for practicing the mental side of playing the game, but you will absolutely have to supplement this with some dark room sessions to learn things like shield drops, pivot jabs/ftilts/fsmashes/dsmashes, cc jabs, etc.
Sorry ph00t, but pivots are a non essential part of samuses game, and cc jabs? why would you ever want to intentionally do that cc jab when you can cc dsmash... cc bomb into dair, cc dtitl... Working on a mental part of your game can be achieved though wifi play... agreed, but it will not transition into regular situational awareness because the majority of players will be more technical irl. If anything, just watch videos of the pros to see what they are doing when and think about why, and then implement it when you can play someone offline.
By not using pivot smashes, you're cutting off an entire meta.
Pivots can be performed at any point after the backwards motion of Samus's initial dash has begun. Add to that the fact that Samus leans forward as her initial dash begins, and it's pretty clear dashing away quickly is by almost every metric a better dodging option than wavedashing. Since you can do anything out of a pivot at any point, there's often no reason not to use a pivot to dodge and punish undercommitments on attacks outside of not being able to do them. I know HugS uses pivots to much success in Melee.
It is precisely because of the uselessness of jab out of a crouch parry that most Sami use "cc jab" to refer to the use of crouch to cancel the buffer on the second hit of jab, allowing one to perform a second jab1 much sooner after one jab1. This tactic is pretty darn essential to Samus play, as it provides a very fast and safe frame trap to dissuade going on the offensive out of shield when used on block.
Watching videos will not give you practice in the fundamental real time situational awareness that you need to be able to play online. It will teach you about tactics your opponent may use and allow you to thing about possible counters, but you will not learn about applying those counters in real time. Online allows you to practice them, not just in play against a human opponent, but while also forcing you to think those couple fractions of a second ahead. It's because of this quality that online really is a crucible for developing strong yomi in those that use it properly.
I'm not suggesting that it's the best way to learn how to play this game. But if there's no one nearby to play you in person, then online play can provide a highly educational experience when used to practice a very specific skill set.
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I see I see. Just to be clear explain what you mean by pivot smashing? I probably do it just don't know that technical term. As far as wifi goes I think as long as I can find some people to play in my region It should be really good practice for me for those reasons you guys stated. That's how I developed my brawl Samus and my 1st tourny I got like 3rd out of 37 I think; after so many told me my wifi skill wouldn't transfer well lol. Proved them wrong 
. I feel like playing online so much got me familiar all the match ups and get the general feel for them, so offline I didn't get too many suprises. Where's a good way to even find people to play? Allisbrawl?
. I feel like playing online so much got me familiar all the match ups and get the general feel for them, so offline I didn't get too many suprises. Where's a good way to even find people to play? Allisbrawl?first off, the way Hugs used pivots was mid dash dance, not standing still, running backwards then immediately doing a ftilt or smash, also I don't think you understand the purpose of CCing... you take a hit to give a hit, if you take 2 damage and give 2 jabs, you come off on the worse end, and what you talked about next was just jab canceling... which you use to pressure sheilds. Honestly, it sounds like you have to clue how to properly play samus, and I'm not trying to be mean, its just you are wrong with the majority of what you said, another thing is you use frame traps to describe something.... that is not a frame trap.... Yes you can improve from online play with basics, and just understanding what goes on between moves, priority, hit range, ect... but a real opponent playing at a face pace with more tech skill is going to be a different game entirely. We both care to help this guy, which is why we are posting here, so really just leave it up to him to decide who listens instead of getting into another petty argument of... no you are stupid... no you are stupid.
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Serris
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Hey, I remember you from back in '08. Nice to see you've made the transition! Wi-Fi is a terrible place to try and learn how to play because the game's networking code is absolute garbage. However, emulating the game and playing it online through Dolphin is an extremely handy way to practice that anyone with a good enough computer should look into. It's leaps and bounds better than the game's built-in online options.
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Well, I don't think you've been watching the same HugS as I do, but even that's still a pivot, bro.
It's not a difficult concept, actually, and I understand it perfectly: You cancel a jab. With the crouch animation. Crouch cancel. I recognize that the overlapping terminology is confusing, but that's what it was called when I started reading the Melee Samus boards back in '06 (I lurked for a good year before I registered and started posting). Some people who can't deal with nuance did start calling it jab canceling, but hey, I'm just kinda old-school.
Well, all you've really managed to do is quibble about technicalities, but you haven't shown anything I've said to be false, so I'm going to just assume this is you blowing smoke. Thanks for the thinly veiled insult and moreover for the lackluster attempt at conciliation, though.
You limit your opponents options by having an attack out before they can possibly perform certain actions, even with frame perfect reactions (which they won't have because they're waiting to see what you'll do out of the first jab). How is that not a frame trap?
They still have to think about the large-scale space control and neutral yomi games, which are what you learn the most about when playing online, and thinking about those things so far ahead is always a good plan. Make no mistake, I'm not explicitly disagreeing with you, here; there's really no substitute for playing people in person if you want to be exposed to the whole game, but many online warriors have a much better macro-level understanding of the game than a lot of players who spend a lot of time developing their tech skill.
I agree. Maybe in the future, if you disagree with my posts and still aren't able to cogently articulate why you think they're wrong, you'll leave well enough alone.
Serris
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Honestly, I'm getting sick of both of you, so could you please take your debate about the Samus meta-game out of this thread?
Well to address the only one point you made, that is not a frame trap, because a frame trap by definition is A TRAP, a situation where your opponent will be hit by 1 of 2-4 possible attack that are GUARANTEED, just claiming someone will not have perfect reaction or wont be lucky, stops it from being a frame trap........... meaning no matter what frame they are in, they are trapped by the set up you have created...... Onto your pivots which you dont seem to understand practical application, the way hugs uses that is the same way in which you can use run away crouch --> reverse ftilt or fsmash, which may be 2-5 frames slower, but it is a lot safer of an option and most of the time is very difficult to distinguish between the two options. Also there is a big difference between crouch cancel, crouching, and jab cancels. Crouch cancels is when you take a hit from your opponent to then immediately counter attack, crouching can be used for other purposes besides CCing, like stopping a full speed run, and jab cancels do use crouching, but crouching has more applications than just the tech of jab cancels.
You see, when I talk about what you're talking about, I use the word, matrix. Matrices are sequences of moves that line up to cover every escape option an opponent has, and are inescapable. They're a lot like option selects in TFGs, where the same input covers every follow-up option the opponent has. It's because of option selects that T. Hawk is considered top tier now in ST. But smash doesn't really have many option selects since its input mechanics are less context-dependent, so we usually rely on the more technically demanding matrix. Falco's edgeguard on Fox where he ftilts to beat illusion, dairs to beat firefox to the ledge, then dsmashes to beat firefox upward is a matrix. Frame traps, as I use the term, and have always seen it used, are gaps in blockstrings or combos where you give your opponent the impression they can punish the opening, but because you have a fast enough follow-up, you can beat their options of retaliation. They're typically used to make opponents afraid of attempting to counter your stronger follow-ups.
I know full well the difference between pivoting and crouch canceling. Just about every Samus I've seen uses both.
I've already said: when I started on these boards, CC referred to all three of those things. Lots of people who dislike ambiguity complained back then, and so now you have terms like dash canceling and jab canceling. It wasn't always like that, though. I'm just trying to explain why I use the terms I do. You know what they mean now, so the initial misunderstanding is cleared up, by my count. I don't get why you're now so hell bent on proving me wrong when you weren't around back then, and I was.
I know full well the difference between pivoting and crouch canceling. Just about every Samus I've seen uses both.
I've already said: when I started on these boards, CC referred to all three of those things. Lots of people who dislike ambiguity complained back then, and so now you have terms like dash canceling and jab canceling. It wasn't always like that, though. I'm just trying to explain why I use the terms I do. You know what they mean now, so the initial misunderstanding is cleared up, by my count. I don't get why you're now so hell bent on proving me wrong when you weren't around back then, and I was.
I played my brother who has recently started playing quite a bit and did pretty good against his Roy. His grab reach and edge guard game on her makes the match pretty tough from what I could tell. I won about half of the time then I went sheik and had an easier time winning against him. So I definitely think it's just the match up that made it so difficult. That and I'm still adjusting to the new Samus tactics. He was impressed with how she is now though. One other thing that makes Samus vs him so tough is he has been playing against it and watching it for like 10 years. So a win at all vs him with her is a good sign to me. Most people aren't so immune to missle barrages and Samus' shield pressure like he is.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
It is called that now. When I first learned about it, it was called crouch cancel. I still call it that. I've already explained this. It's actually not difficult to understand what I mean.@ph00tbag I thought crouching after a jab was just called jab canceling, much like crouching during a run is dash canceling
jus' sayin', maybe it's not the most used but it makes the most sense since CC really refers to crouching/ASDI to reduce knockback/hitstun
Well ph00t, when giving advice to other people using outdated terms, gives the impression your info is out of date and you are misinformed. You seem like a smart enough guy though, but there is a reason things have become more specific with regard to terms used.
GeZ
Smash Lord
I don't know if the terminology differs in smash than in other fighting games in this instance, as it does in a lot of instances, but in other fighting games a frame trap is a specific link in a series of attacks that your opponent has the time to act out of, but leaves them insufficient frames to have their move do anything but get beat out. So if frame traps are the same in Smash as they are in other games, it's only a frame trap if it puts you at frame advantage but leaves enough of an opening for your opponent to act.
I'm not necessarily too tired of the butting of heads in all these threads, as I was subject to be a part of one of them, but it stops being useful when it devolves from actual input, to nitpicking each others input. I think both you guys know a lot about the character, and it might benefit these boards, and would more than likely benefit you guys, if you posted as if you didn't see each others comments, or did your best to only clash when you're in very direct conflict with each other. That way we still get both your guys knowledge and input, and still get to see opposing sides of the argument, without it overtaking the original argument itself.
I'm not necessarily too tired of the butting of heads in all these threads, as I was subject to be a part of one of them, but it stops being useful when it devolves from actual input, to nitpicking each others input. I think both you guys know a lot about the character, and it might benefit these boards, and would more than likely benefit you guys, if you posted as if you didn't see each others comments, or did your best to only clash when you're in very direct conflict with each other. That way we still get both your guys knowledge and input, and still get to see opposing sides of the argument, without it overtaking the original argument itself.
Ok so I see it is critical to incorporate Samus' new Zair and crawl tactics. I managed to land a few nice Zair to charge shots that were pretty sexy. I'm still thinking too much about how to do my stuff though and getting my techs committed to muscle memory the reverse charge shot is a pretty quirky and effective tactic I found hits pretty often. Crawl does wonders in preventing an opponents approach as well as dodge projectile spam. I'm liking what she can do my only complaint so far is I feel like people fall out of Uair too early often. It's hard to get the whole move to hit. And how do you guys get past swords men edge guards like Marth? I find it tough to get back on against them. Oh and take out the sound for her second jump! I find my opponent acting on the noise of the jump which is really annoying. What you guys think that sound about right?
GeZ
Smash Lord
As long as you're mixing up Up B with Air Dodge to Tether, you shouldn't be getting consistently edgeguarded too hard.
That's not my issue. It's getting from the ledge to the stage. Getting to the ledge is simple now. It is probably just that my brother is too good against my Samus after all these years. I even try to wave land back on into dash or shield and I just get smacked with fsmash before I can do anything as I'm sliding. I think it's the sound of her double jump that's tipping him of at my attempt. Because when I do this with sheik he doesn't react as fast and I can get off the fsmash or shield grab 1st.
GeZ
Smash Lord
Are you mixing in jumping up from the ledge, rolling from the ledge, and ledge hop aerials?
Best I can. Ledge hop aerials are a no no against this Roy i get punished every single time. My best bet is to Zair stall for a bit then keep him guessing with the jump from the ledge and the roll or just get up without anything special and immediately boost ball behind him. The Thing I don't like is being over Roy and Marth is bad but I find it the safer option against him. Tends to be too far back I guess since he is trying to punish the hop to fair. Hopping back on with missles work well when they haven't establish there spot for edge guarding quite yet.
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Getting back onstage against just about anyone is, and always has been, tough for Samus. We do still have the no-impact land/regrab mixup to throw off the timing, and maybe eke in a dsmash. Technically, there's ledgehop fair, wavelanding, and the different get-up options. Ledgejumping (pressing x on the ledge) is a new option we have, and you could probably use bombs to change your momentum and dissuade edgeguard attempts, and ledgejumping into AD zairs may also be novel ways to punish overzealous dtilts. You may also be able to use it to get to a platform and waveland on it.
It'll all be a mix-up, though. I don't think it's in the cards for Samus to have anything solid from that position.
It'll all be a mix-up, though. I don't think it's in the cards for Samus to have anything solid from that position.
Yea I have noticed that playing someone who knows this game well. Alright I found a new tactic that may be viable as a very odd mix up. It's ledge hop with X or Y then immediately go into down b and go backwards then double jump back to the stage right behind the bomb with a zair, super missile, or charged up charge shot. Works on my roommate but he is just an average joe. Thought of this one in training and looks like it would be a pretty good tactic and very unexpected.
It sounds like a nice way to punish overzealous edgeguarders. It also sounds like it might be potentially unsafe. I'd have to look at it myself.
It could also make for a neat grapple cancel trick if grapple canceling were properly implemented (HINT HINT).
*cough* sorry, don't know where that came from.
It could also make for a neat grapple cancel trick if grapple canceling were properly implemented (HINT HINT).
*cough* sorry, don't know where that came from.
I've been finding it good on people with swords that like to kind of hang back to edge guard, people who try to edge guard too close you can do double jump fair or even Uair for the super close guarders. Worked on my brother Shugo a few times. I used my head to come up with that one. He said..well that's new haha. That's what I love about Samus. She has an answer for anything the opponent can throw at her, it's just a matter of implementing the right tactic at the right time. Ended a couple matches with a 2 stock on his Roy just cuz I found a viable way of returning to the stage 
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Sorry dude, but I actually invented this option a while back in melee, as well as the option of rising grapple to cancel it, and I have used it on stream before to punish Cactar as an overzealous edge guard. This isn't new tech, but its uses are more practical in melee.
I wasn't saying I invented anything new. Just that I figured out how to deal with this type of edge guard that was causing me issues on my own. No one suggested this tactic to me nor have I ever seen it. I had to think hard about my move set, tried it out and found it to be effective. That is all.
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..... yet finding something means creating and or discovering what wasn't already known. You may have have meant the way you said it, but you did try to claim you invented this tactic not but 2 posts ago.just cuz I found a viable way of returning to the stage
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Hey guys. Just wanted to give you an update on how I've been doing. Been getting really comfortable with her techs to the point I don't gotta think about which one to implement at any one time. Been using the rising grapple on that edge guard that was giving me trouble and now he is forced to mix up his edge guard attempt which makes me happy again. Been trying to go into morph ball mode whenever they try an aerial approach and that usually either discourages there attempt so they retreat back into range of my camp game or they miss me and get punished. Really liking her many options at any given moment. Of course besides trying to get back to the ground from being aerial juggled. Any tips on this besides down b mind games?
Hmm. ok. Do you only use the drop from ledge to double jump and fair on floaters only? It seems less effective then ever in this game to me. but it might be because everyone I play against just falls to fast. I'm going to try to get my butt to a tourny in the next month or so. just kinda hard since im like north east ohio and the closest tourny's are like 2-3 hours from me.
Yeah dude you dont want the last hit of the fair to make contact, you need to fast fall and l cancel it before that last hit, otherwise it knocks them too far away for a d smash. Also if you read my post "The KLittle things", I list all options I use for samus returning from the ledge
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Ok thanks for all the advice I have really been implementing it the best I can and it all seems pretty legit. I'm in training mode right now just like I am almost everyday trying to perfect everything about her such as movement options and techs.
Best of luck dude, I spent like the last two weeks learning samus, and it ruined my melee samus tech skill, so no more practicing PM for me, but ill still play it at a tourney or if there are no melee tournies going on the same day