Just read the Kotaku interview.....

[Viceversa96]

I want to shove this down Sakurai's throat. Melee gameplay + tons of content + a balanced cast + GOOD online= Best smash game. Sakurai will never get that. It's nice to have a basic layer for newbies and for the people who want to explore more there are advanced techniques and characters who are hard to master. Brawl is a better game overall because of the amount of **** you can do. But I can't deny that Melee's gameplay was just more deep and polished. I feel the speed increase is a good step forward but hearing things like "Melee is to hard" isn't justification for not adding advanced techniques or deeper gameplay in general. Did you guys hear this?
Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?

​

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that.
It's sad hearing this because the ONLY reason Brawl and Melee are alive is because of the competitive community. Melee was chosen OVER Brawl @ EVO and rose a BUNCH of money to get in EVO. That's how passionate us, the smash community are. Nintendo didn't want to stream Melee @ Evo but US, the community made a petition to MAKE Nintendo stream Evo and it worked. I LOVE THIS COMMUNITY. I WANT THIS COMMUNITY TO KEEP EVOLVING! I hope one day Sakuraii will get it. I'm still buying Smash 4 but the fact that it's still not going to be my dream smash game is sad. Maybe I can find a way to reach out to Sakuraii idk. But I just wanted to post this because I feel this strongly about it.





Edit: The point of this post is to bring up the fact the Sakurai is afraid to add back ATs because he doesn't to scare anybody off. But it won't. It adds to the game because you can find more things. When I mean "advanced techniques" I don't just mean L-canceling, Wavedashing, etc. I want some new advanced techniques as well. I would like an option at least but he's to afraid to scare casuals. Coming from me. There is nothing more satisfying then mastering every technique and doing well. It encourages us to get better at the game. You don't have to play competitive but the option is there in Melee. The option to go deeper.
Edit #2: DO NOT BRING UP THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS A COMBINATION OF MELEE AND BRAWL BECAUSE IT ISN'T. IT'S BRAWL'S ENGINE WITH NO TRIPPING AND FASTER FALLING SPEEDS.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

........we really didn't need another thread like this....

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think that we needed a thread like this. While the competitive community is important and crucial, I don't think that it has been the main focus for Sakurai when it comes to Smash Bros. But, I'm pretty sure that they will please the community somehow. Just don't expect things like L-Cancelling, DACUS, or Wavedashing.

 

[8-peacock-8]

The main focus should be finding a great way to please everyone. Not just the one side of the fan base.

Hence why a combination of Brawl and Melee is being done for this game.

 

[Berserker.]

I'd rather wait for the final output and see for myself whether this game will be well tuned or ****ed up.

Melee had a um.... a cast with a bunch of clones but ey, the gameplay was tight and overwhelming

Brawl had the perfect roster with a few holes left but the gameplay was meh for most people. For me, I liked the game because.... I love zoners

 

[Viceversa96]

The main focus should be finding a great way to please everyone. Not just the one side of the fan base.

Hence why a combination of Brawl and Melee is being done for this game.

That isn't the point. He CAN put advanced techniques back in. It's not like won't appeal to all crowds if he did. The point is that you have the basic formula which is easy for players but the extra depth for the crazy technical players. Sakuraii makes it sound like it ruins the game and it doesn't in fact it ADDS more value to the game because you can find a lot of new things to apply those techniques to. That's what matters. I don't feel that increasing the speed is enough. It's good but not enough. I want this game to replace Melee and Brawl in the competitive community but that will never happen because he seems to be afraid. Sad to hear about his injury though. Poor guy.

Double post oops

I'd rather wait for the final output and see for myself whether this game will be well tuned or ****ed up.

Melee had a um.... a cast with a bunch of clones but ey, the gameplay was tight and overwhelming

Brawl had the perfect roster with a few holes left but the gameplay was meh for most people. For me, I liked the game because.... I love zoners

That's why I believe the speed being in the middle ground is a good choice for the slower players with bad reaction time. But I like having the option to go deeper. Which Sakurai is against.

 

[Pyra]

I vote we change it so that Smash 4 is like Brawl, but more floaty and with more prat falling.

Punishment for all the wieners who feel its necessary to make threads like this more often than they should be made.
(Which is very rarely.)

 

[Moon Monkey]

So, Sakurai tries to avoid such things while he can
While the Tekken Producer who is helping to make the game recognizes the competitive scene and acknowledges smash as 'serious fighter'
http://gamerant.com/tekken-producer-smash-bros/

 

[Jaedrik]

The main focus should be finding a great way to please everyone. Not just the one side of the fan base.
Hence why a combination of Brawl and Melee is being done for this game.

Melee was very pleasing to casuals. Brawl was pleasing only to casuals.
I'm simplifying it a bit much, but yeah. Casuals do matter, but high skill ceiling does not affect them in the day-to-day enjoyment of the game.
The notion that Brawl is somehow more catered towards the casual is a faulty one, and I don't mean that by Sakurai's intention, I mean it by the fact that Melee and Brawl essentially had the same exact skill floor.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Melee was very pleasing to casuals. Brawl was pleasing only to casuals.
I'm simplifying it a bit much, but yeah. Casuals do matter, but high skill ceiling does not affect them in the day-to-day enjoyment of the game.
The notion that Brawl is somehow more catered towards the casual is a faulty one, and I don't mean that by Sakurai's intention, I mean it by the fact that Melee and Brawl essentially had the same exact skill floor.

When did i say anything you're trying to argue against? I only said that Sakurai is trying to make both sides happy.

 

[Jaedrik]

When did i say anything you're trying to argue against? I only said that Sakurai is trying to make both sides happy.

Woah, I wasn't arguing with you, jeeze, don't be so confrontational~ . I was trying to make the point that he's going about it the wrong way. :3

 

[8-peacock-8]

Woah, I wasn't arguing with you, jeeze, don't be so confrontational~ . I was trying to make the point that he's going about it the wrong way. :3

Oh i see. lol

 

[Big-Cat]

That isn't the point. He CAN put advanced techniques back in. It's not like won't appeal to all crowds if he did. The point is that you have the basic formula which is easy for players but the extra depth for the crazy technical players. Sakuraii makes it sound like it ruins the game and it doesn't in fact it ADDS more value to the game because you can find a lot of new things to apply those techniques to. That's what matters. I don't feel that increasing the speed is enough. It's good but not enough. I want this game to replace Melee and Brawl in the competitive community but that will never happen because he seems to be afraid. Sad to hear about his injury though. Poor guy.

The thing is that higher execution does not inherently mean more of any actual depth. L-Canceling adds skill execution, but it doesn't add any kind of strategic value as 99% of the time you should do it. Depth has to do with tactics more than anything else. You can have plenty of depth without anything super technical being required.

To give you a good idea of how to combine tactical depth with execution, look at Guilty Gear. All the attack inputs are actually very basic, but the pace of doing things like zoning with Dizzy, doing yoyo mixups with Bridget, deciding to get cards or something else with Jam etc. is what makes Guilty Gear a very execution heavy game. It's a mix of reflexes and fast thinking.

Smash can do that sort of thing without having to do anything stupid like L-Canceling. Have you seen Zelda's Din's Fire in Project M? That's a basic example right there.

 

[Networker1]

Have you seen Zelda's Din's Fire in Project M? That's a basic example right there.

The short synopsis please?

 

[Snakeyes]

Honestly, **** advanced techniques for the sake of complexity. Brawl has tons of advanced techniques and it's still utter garbage.

You could take Melee, remove the need for l-canceling, give the wavedash an easier input and the game would be just as fun, rewarding and dynamic.

 

[Vkrm]

I vote we change it so that Smash 4 is like Brawl, but more floaty and with more prat falling.

Punishment for all the wieners who feel its necessary to make threads like this more often than they should be made.
(Which is very rarely.)

All the "wieners" would just keep playing melee and PM. This would only hurt people who aren't invested in competitive smash. Though I imagine this was sakurai's mindset when he made brawl. Tripping negatively affects everybody, to casuals it's a minor inconvenience but that's fine so long as it really screws with competitive players.

So, Sakurai tries to avoid such things while he can
While the Tekken Producer who is helping to make the game recognizes the competitive scene and acknowledges smash as 'serious fighter'
http://gamerant.com/tekken-producer-smash-bros/

It's a little late for that considering smash 4 can not be played at large tournaments.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

These threads aren't made that often.


And it's still too often for them to be made. These kinds of threads always go down the same path and they very rarely ever accomplish anything.

 

[Moon Monkey]

It's a little late for that considering smash 4 can not be played at large tournaments.

Don't you mean too early?
Anyway, unless SSB4 is DRASTICALLY different from it's previous installments (Which doesn't seem to be the case), I don't see how SSB4 won't be played at tournaments.

 

[Vkrm]

Don't you mean too early?
Anyway, unless SSB4 is DRASTICALLY different from it's previous installments (Which doesn't seem to be the case), I don't see how SSB4 won't be played at tournaments.

I meant to imply it was too late for Nintendo/Sakurai to start caring about the competitive scene because we literally can't play smash4 in a tournament setting. The wiiu doesn't support wire controllers.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I meant to imply it was too late for Nintendo/Sakurai to start caring about the competitive scene because we literally can't play smash4 in a tournament setting. The wiiu doesn't support wire controllers.

It's never too late. With that said I doubt they ever will.
Well, SSB4 as far as we know right now is incomplete, so what I was getting at is that it's far too early for the game to be released to the public let alone the competitive community.

Yeah, wireless controllers is unfortunate, i'm sure some third party company will develop a USB wiring cord for the system. But for now it is a bummer.

 

[Big-Cat]

The short synopsis please?

In Project M, Zelda has the ability to place up to three Din's Fires at a time. After a second, they all explode. There is also another property of releasing a Din's Fire out resets the timer on the already active Din's Fires.

I meant to imply it was too late for Nintendo/Sakurai to start caring about the competitive scene because we literally can't play smash4 in a tournament setting. The wiiu doesn't support wire controllers.

That's actually something that can be remedied later on. The last WiiU update included the ability to support USB Keyboards. Therefore, it would be of no surprise if they install a driver that supports wired controllers. If that's the case, then our problem is solved.

 

[Conviction]

People have already made USB ports for the GCC, so kindly shut the hell up.

Thank god for that Tekken article, all the FGC drama is played out.

 

[Vkrm]

That's actually something that can be remedied later on. The last WiiU update included the ability to support USB Keyboards. Therefore, it would be of no surprise if they install a driver that supports wired controllers. If that's the case, then our problem is solved.

I was not aware of that. Although the problem is none of the current wiiu controllers can broadcast their inputs through wires. If Nintendo sells a separate controller just for smash then maybe.

It's never too late. With that said I doubt they ever will.
Well, SSB4 as far as we know right now is incomplete, so what I was getting at is that it's far too early for the game to be released to the public let alone the competitive community.

Yeah, wireless controllers is unfortunate, i'm sure some third party company will develop a USB wiring cord for the system. But for now it is a bummer.

Well then I just misunderstood your post. Sorry bout that.

People have already made USB ports for the GCC, so kindly shut the hell up.

Get one, plug it into your wiiu, and see if it works. If it does well then forget what I said.

 

[Big-Cat]

I was not aware of that. Although the problem is none of the current wiiu controllers can broadcast their inputs through wires. If Nintendo sells a separate controller just for smash then maybe.

It wouldn't be just for Smash, but it would likely be motivated by it. There's also the fact that wired controllers are cheaper than their wireless counterparts. Considering that they made the 2DS as a cheaper alternative, it's a good possibility.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Get one, plug it into your wiiu, and see if it works. If it does well then forget what I said.

They usually work well. According to people on Youtube who try them out.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I am going to keep this thread open for now and please remember that Melee vs Brawl are sensitive subjects and usually incite flame wars. If this thread just turns into another petty flame war. it will be closed.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Wireless controllers are not a real problem with modern wireless controller tech. The biggest problem is syncing since having two consoles syncing at once in range is going to cause confusion, but good coordination can overcome that.

The biggest problem with these kinds of topics is that they only work if you assume that Brawl is somehow some terrible game lacking depth... which it really isn't. I mean, it has had a thriving tournament scene for years. That just couldn't have happened if there weren't an overwhelming abundance of depth to be had with Brawl. Melee at EVO was about the smash community coming together to support smash, not about Melee vs Brawl (Brawl players stopped supporting Brawl early because they wanted a smash game at all to beat Skullgirls etc.). The "problem" that is design similar to Brawl isn't a problem, and that kinda throws a wrench in the whole concern.

When you step back and think about that stuff, about the fact that both Melee and Brawl are deep, competitive games, everything Sakurai said about smash 4 makes so much sense. He's trying to take the best from both worlds: Melee's speed and Brawl's accessibility, and that's where you get this idea of a middle ground (of course, a little of each are sacrificed, but you get most of both). This could make the ultimate smash game, better than either Melee or Brawl as you have the elements that make each great and hopefully strip away the elements that held each back. Even more, a competitive scene thrives when it draws as many people as possible; it's the players who drive the community to dive deep into these games, and having more players just means more chances to realize the true potential of these games so yeah mass appeal is hugely important to the competitive success of these games too. So far literally everything Sakurai has said about this game makes perfect sense to me, and it's incredibly encouraging. Obviously we don't know the fine details yet, and in a competitive game, the details really dictate a lot about how the game plays at a high level. The direction though really sounds spot-on to me though, I really trust Sakurai's competence as a designer already, and I'm eagerly awaiting my chance to play.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Am I the only person who, when I was a new player, had absolutely no trouble L-Cancelling? It's not difficult at all, and I often hear it compared to wavedashing, which is LEAGUES more tricky to do right.

 

[Ulti-Bman]

DID YOU NOT SEE DAT SONIC GAMEPLAY?!! COMBOS ARE IN! I don't know how "advanced" you want this to be. So far, the gameplay certainly seems better than Melee's, but we'll have to wait until the official release to judge ultimately of course.

 

[nLiM8d]

Get one, plug it into your wiiu, and see if it works. If it does well then forget what I said.

Actually, I think Vkrm has a point on this note, hardware and more notably software non congruence is a real challenge to work around- even for the tech gurus.

What other reason could there be in the minimal flow of virtual console ports? Its not as easy as copy-paste of some code.

The best solution is to set pairing as function of USB which can translate reception over to bluetooth, which would be on standby until the cord is unplugged.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Is this guy talkin bout the interview from way back in July, or has there been a more recent one?

DID YOU NOT SEE DAT SONIC GAMEPLAY?!! COMBOS ARE IN! I don't know how "advanced" you want this to be. So far, the gameplay certainly seems better than Melee's, but we'll have to wait until the official release to judge ultimately of course.

You could do that in Brawl too. Its just that in the Sonic trailer the opponents didn't try air dodging or moving the joystick or attacking back...

 

[Vkrm]

They usually work well. According to people on Youtube who try them out.

Now are they playing with wireless may flash adaptor or plugging their controller directly into the wii u? Kuma's post about Nintendo's patch gives me hope, but at the same time they're not going to patch the wii u when it only benefits A) a small minority of players and B)the company that manufactures USB gcn controllers/ USB adapters.

Stuff

Serious question: if weren't for melee's success as a competitive game would anyone have even thought to play it seriously? There are a lot of factors that contribute to brawls success as a competitive game. You can build a scene around a bad game.

DID YOU NOT SEE DAT SONIC GAMEPLAY?!! COMBOS ARE IN! I don't know how "advanced" you want this to be. So far, the gameplay certainly seems better than Melee's, but we'll have to wait until the official release to judge ultimately of course.

Just because they didn't cancel the hitstun doesn't mean they couldn't. Also re watch the sonic trailer. After sonic hits megaman and Mario, they fall heeeellllllaaaaaa slow.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Like someone previously mentioned in a thread similar to this one. I personally believe that advanced techniques, super high speed and the like aren't the things that players want out of smash, rather, they want the ability to differentiate skill from player to player. It doesn't matter whether or not aspects that make the game competitively viable are incorporated intentionally or by accident as long as we are capable to incline in skill with our characters and unique play-styles. It doesn't matter how fast or how technical the game is, as long as the skill a player has reflects his/her experience and time put into the game we will all be happy.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Serious question: if weren't for melee's success as a competitive game would anyone have even thought to play it seriously? There are a lot of factors that contribute to brawls success as a competitive game. You can build a scene around a bad game.

I'll ignore that that hypothetical breaks down if you analyze it too deeply (if Melee weren't as it were, Brawl wouldn't exist from a game development standpoint). If Brawl had come out in some sort of circumstance in which Melee wasn't a relevant factor, I think it would have succeeded much as Melee did. Things would be a lot different in a lot of ways, none of which really have to do with the particular quality of these games and most of which have to do with the maturity of the scenes, and overall the smash community would probably be about where we were in 2007 awaiting the new smash game then. It's possible to build a scene around a bad game, but I think in the long run it isn't possible to maintain one, and I think the sheer longevity of Brawl's scene proves it has what it takes as a competitive game all its own.

Now this is moving away from that strong evidence of tournament scenes, but just from my own opinion here, I'd suggest that what really has allowed Melee and Brawl to flourish from a game design standpoint is not what separates them but what unites them. The strong fundamental mechanics, the baseline styles of character designs, the simple and intuitive control scheme... These are the things that fuel the success of smash no matter which game you are talking about, and while talking about what's different between Melee and Brawl can lead to reasonable disagreements about what's better, I think the real place to look for competitive viability in terms of game design is the ground they've shared all along, ground that Sakurai seems to be pretty respectful of for smash 4 which is yet another reason to be optimistic.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because they didn't cancel the hitstun doesn't mean they couldn't. Also re watch the sonic trailer. After sonic hits megaman and Mario, they fall heeeellllllaaaaaa slow.

I think that was for dramatic effect.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Now are they playing with wireless may flash adaptor or plugging their controller directly into the wii u? Kuma's post about Nintendo's patch gives me hope, but at the same time they're not going to patch the wii u when it only benefits A) a small minority of players and B)the company that manufactures USB gcn controllers/ USB adapters.

They plug them into wii motes.

 

[Luco]

Wireless controllers are not a real problem with modern wireless controller tech. The biggest problem is syncing since having two consoles syncing at once in range is going to cause confusion, but good coordination can overcome that.

The biggest problem with these kinds of topics is that they only work if you assume that Brawl is somehow some terrible game lacking depth... which it really isn't. I mean, it has had a thriving tournament scene for years. That just couldn't have happened if there weren't an overwhelming abundance of depth to be had with Brawl. Melee at EVO was about the smash community coming together to support smash, not about Melee vs Brawl (Brawl players stopped supporting Brawl early because they wanted a smash game at all to beat Skullgirls etc.). The "problem" that is design similar to Brawl isn't a problem, and that kinda throws a wrench in the whole concern.

When you step back and think about that stuff, about the fact that both Melee and Brawl are deep, competitive games, everything Sakurai said about smash 4 makes so much sense. He's trying to take the best from both worlds: Melee's speed and Brawl's accessibility, and that's where you get this idea of a middle ground (of course, a little of each are sacrificed, but you get most of both). This could make the ultimate smash game, better than either Melee or Brawl as you have the elements that make each great and hopefully strip away the elements that held each back. Even more, a competitive scene thrives when it draws as many people as possible; it's the players who drive the community to dive deep into these games, and having more players just means more chances to realize the true potential of these games so yeah mass appeal is hugely important to the competitive success of these games too. So far literally everything Sakurai has said about this game makes perfect sense to me, and it's incredibly encouraging. Obviously we don't know the fine details yet, and in a competitive game, the details really dictate a lot about how the game plays at a high level. The direction though really sounds spot-on to me though, I really trust Sakurai's competence as a designer already, and I'm eagerly awaiting my chance to play.

Pretty much everything you've said I notice myself nodding in agreement with!

And sup Vkrm, it's been a while man.

To add my own 2 cents, in regards to how Sakurai is building it, whilst I notice he doesn't take in too much from competitive players, what IS important to notice is that he at the very least accepted help from a company that does and as a result, I think a lot of people will notice that a lot of our low tier characters look to have been redone.

The way in which the game is being made has looked really nice to me so far and if the wireless issue can be fixed up (I use wii-chuk anyway so meah ) then I can only see smash 4 as having as vibrant a community as its predecessors.

Anywho, in regards to these latest posts, you can build a scene around a bad game but eventually it stales or drops off, I think. Brawl has had some really large changes in its competition and I argue that its meta game is still constantly evolving (thus why really notable/top players often write full-scale essay discussions on the subject). But I think the biggest thing that goes in any smash game's favour is that the transition from casual to competitive play is surprisingly smooth. There's plenty of ATs but you can go without (plenty of top players are just using flawless fundamentals rather than ATs with great success), the actual original curve of play is a very small step in comparison to other games. Then what people realise is that that curve goes up way higher than they ever imagined and they have so much fun tracing it.

I really enjoyed reading that Harada feels the games are deep btw. ^^

 

[RODO]

I meant to imply it was too late for Nintendo/Sakurai to start caring about the competitive scene because we literally can't play smash4 in a tournament setting. The wiiu doesn't support wire controllers.

I'm pretty sure I can use whatever controller I want??

 

[Vkrm]

They plug them into wii motes.

The kind of wiimotes that have USB outputs?

I'll ignore that this hypothetically breaks down if you analyze it too deeply (if Melee weren't as it were, Brawl wouldn't exist from a game development standpoint).

I dont see how my argument collapses on itself. Just imagine both games are the same mechanically and that we went through melee's lifespan without building the scene.

If Brawl had come out in some sort of circumstance in which Melee wasn't a relevant factor, I think it would have succeeded much as Melee did.

I do not agree. There isn't enough love for brawl in the brawl community for it to survived long enough to establish its own rule set. Remember, we're talking hypotheticals. We're in an alternate universe where melee was never played competitively. There isn't a developed rule set for brawl to adopt and it isn't going to get a free ride into mlg, which is what convinced most casual brawl players at that time that tourney play was legit.

Things would be a lot different in a lot of ways, none of which really have to do with the particular quality of these games and most of which have to do with the maturity of the scenes, and overall the smash community would probably be about where we were in 2007 awaiting the new smash game then. It's possible to build a scene around a bad game, but
I think in the long run it isn't possible to maintain one, and I think the sheer longevity of Brawl's scene proves it has what it takes as a competitive game all its own.

I don't think brawl has done anything special in this regard. It hasn't been out that long, and its declined just as any game would despite its advantages. Like requiring next to no time investment to reach the mid level, massive sales, and the rabid Nintendo fan base who are a very dangerous mix. They are very vocal and often have very low expectations. Let me just point out that I find top level brawl exciting, I just think when you look at the whole package it come up short in strategic depth and gameplay that's not 100% deterministic. If weren't for melee's success nobody would've tried to take brawl to the next level.

And sup Vkrm, it's been a while man.

Hey man whats up? Its so nice to hear from you. Been awhile since I've seen a post from you.

 

[Viceversa96]

I vote we change it so that Smash 4 is like Brawl, but more floaty and with more prat falling.

Punishment for all the wieners who feel its necessary to make threads like this more often than they should be made.
(Which is very rarely.)

Lol you troll xD

I am going to keep this thread open for now and please remember that Melee vs Brawl are sensitive subjects and usually incite flame wars. If this thread just turns into another petty flame war. it will be closed.

I agree. I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just wanted to touch up on imaging the perfect Smash game that has tons of content like Brawl with crazy items and stages for the casuals. With deep rich gameplay like Melee's advanced techniques to explore along with the Brawl advanced techniques to deliver a Smash game for everyone but Sakuraii won't open his eyes to this gold that can make him even more famous. Imagine how popular Sm4sh can be with all that stuff. Maybe it would be the best fighting game ever.