Just read the Kotaku interview.....

[Frostwraith]

Oh look, another of these threads bashing a game that hasn't been released yet and turning into yet another Melee vs. Brawl debate flame war. It's classic! Like we NEVER had one of these before...

I wonder if I should add gasoline to the flames by defending Melee to death or add alcohol instead by defending Brawl to death?

Naw, I'll add both and state that both sides make themselves look like stupid zealots by defending games that are both good and enjoyable, implying that something is inherently bad just because it doesn't suit his/her "superior" tastes.

Seriously now, this has gotten old and it's beating the rotting corpse of a dead horse.

 

[Viceversa96]

Oh look, another of these threads bashing a game that hasn't been released yet and turning into yet another Melee vs. Brawl debate flame war. It's classic! Like we NEVER had one of these before...

I wonder if I should add gasoline to the flames by defending Melee to death or add alcohol instead by defending Brawl to death?

Naw, I'll add both and state that both sides make themselves look like stupid zealots by defending games that are both good and enjoyable, implying that something is inherently bad just because it doesn't suit his/her "superior" tastes.

Seriously now, this has gotten old and it's beating the rotting corpse of a dead horse.

Read the above post above yours dude. Not bashing the game. I'm still ****ing buying it. Read my original post again. Especially the edit.The point is Sakuraii is scared and he doesn't have to be scared. Hell he could add air dashing to the game if it adds more depth. All I want is the option to go deeper. How long did it take for Melee players to discover wavedashing? Someone tell me

 

[Frostwraith]

Read the above post above yours dude. Not bashing the game. I'm still ****ing buying it. Read my original post again. Especially the edit.The point is Sakuraii is scared and he doesn't have to be scared. Hell he could add air dashing to the game if it adds more depth. All I want is the option to go deeper. How long did it take for Melee players to discover wavedashing? Someone tell me

Why are you even bothering over stuff you can't control? If Sakurai wants the games his own way, he's in his total right to do so.

You may not agree with his philosophies, but you can't change them either. So, why even bother discussing something that has been discussed to death? Tell me, what's the point?

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Read the above post above yours dude. Not bashing the game. I'm still ****ing buying it. Read my original post again. Especially the edit.The point is Sakuraii is scared and he doesn't have to be scared. Hell he could add air dashing to the game if it adds more depth. All I want is the option to go deeper. How long did it take for Melee players to discover wavedashing? Someone tell me

How is Sakurai scared? What your saying is entirely conjecture and based on your own viewpoints. The man has an image on how he wants Smash to be and a few butt hurt fans aren't going to alter this opinion.

Lol you troll xD



I agree. I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just wanted to touch up on imaging the perfect Smash game that has tons of content like Brawl with crazy items and stages for the casuals. With deep rich gameplay like Melee's advanced techniques to explore along with the Brawl advanced techniques to deliver a Smash game for everyone but Sakuraii won't open his eyes to this gold that can make him even more famous. Imagine how popular Sm4sh can be with all that stuff. Maybe it would be the best fighting game ever.

Fair enough but as soon as this de-evolves into a Melee vs Brawl thread (which its dangerously close to becoming), the thread is going to be closed.

 

[Viceversa96]

Why are you even bothering over stuff you can't control? If Sakurai wants the games his own way, he's in his total right to do so.

You may not agree with his philosophies, but you can't change them either. So, why even bother discussing something that has been discussed to death? Tell me, what's the point?

To bring it to the community's attention. You know "what if" scenarios. It will never happen but you know what if it did.

 

[Frostwraith]

To bring it to the community's attention. You know "what if" scenarios. It will never happen but you know what if it did.

Do you know how many of this kind of threads have been made since SSB4 was unveiled? A ton of them, so everyone knows about this and the countless Melee vs. Brawl debates that have happened since Brawl's releases.

Everyone knows what Sakurai thinks and how the competitive community disagrees with him, so this is beating a dead horse and nothing more. What do you want to accomplish with this thread other than a possible flame war?

That interview isn't even recent news and people have discussed about that interview before.

 

[Viceversa96]

Do you know how many of this kind of threads have been made since SSB4 was unveiled? A ton of them, so everyone knows about this and the countless Melee vs. Brawl debates that have happened since Brawl's releases.

Everyone knows what Sakurai thinks and how the competitive community disagrees with him, so this is beating a dead horse and nothing more. What do you want to accomplish with this thread other than a possible flame war?

That interview isn't even recent news and people have discussed about that interview before.

I just wanted this game to end the war but I guess there will always be a war between Smash games

 

[Zonderion]

Sakuraii

Am I the only one bothered by this? There's only one "i" in his last name, not two.
Masahiro Sakurai

But besides all that, as others have stated, having complicated techniques doesn't necessarily translate to a deeper game. I for one love the advance techniques that are in Melee and Brawl. I can't do most of them, but I still enjoy trying. Sakurai has a vision of where he wants this game to go and the fact that Namco Bandai Games is working on it should give us a lot of relief as far as the competitive scene goes. We can produce another flame war for this game, but in all honesty, we aren't going to change Sakurai's mind.


Edit:

I just wanted this game to end the war but I guess there will always be a war between Smash games

I would love that too. But the fact will remain that there will be people who will have no other love in their life other than Melee.

 

[Frostwraith]

I just wanted this game to end the war but I guess there will always be a war between Smash games

As long as people have differing opinions, there will always be room for discussions, some more heated than others...

Thing is, we can't change Sakurai's mind, so this kind of discussions are useless and unproductive. Sakurai is the director of the game and will make it so as he wants, whether some like it or not.

 

[8-peacock-8]

The kind of wiimotes that have USB outputs?

There's an attachment that has the same output as the nunchuck and Classic Controller. You can then plug the controller into the attachment.

 

[Renji64]

I agree with the op. I played melee casually only for years i never felt there it was too hard sakurai pretty much took everything that people liked about melee away and made a game for casuals he doesn't care about competive players your just a extra sell. NO matter how people will try to spin it brawl isn't a good or great game just because people keep playing it despite it's huge flaws. Nothing great about tripping slow gameplay and a game that only pleases one audience no amount of content is gonna fix that. Smash 4 will be a decent game if your on the fence about it wait till some reviews or feedback​

 

[Zubyyyy]

This is gonna turn into another flame war. And having another thread like this to 'Bring it to the community's attention' is NOT a viable excuse to start this debate once again. This doesn't need to be brought to attention anymore, simply because this is the same battle the Smash Community has been having since Brawl's release.

How about this. Rather than Sakurai having a game that includes Brawl's Characters and Items, with Melee's Gameplay and Depth, why don't we have a game that has Smash 4's Characters and Items, while also having Smash 4's Gameplay and Depth? Leave it be. It will be what it's gonna be, and we have to wait to see what that is. #inb4FLAME #inb4flawedreasoning

 

[Viceversa96]

This is gonna turn into another flame war. And having another thread like this to 'Bring it to the community's attention' is NOT a viable excuse to start this debate once again. This doesn't need to be brought to attention anymore, simply because this is the same battle the Smash Community has been having since Brawl's release.

How about this. Rather than Sakurai having a game that includes Brawl's Characters and Items, with Melee's Gameplay and Depth, why don't we have a game that has Smash 4's Characters and Items, while also having Smash 4's Gameplay and Depth? Leave it be. It will be what it's gonna be, and we have to wait to see what that is. #inb4FLAME #inb4flawedreasoning

It's only going to be a flame war if people start flaming. haven't seen that yet thankfully because that's not the point of the post. What is your thoughts on Sakuraii's choices? Do you feel like he's actually trying to appeal to both crowds or is he still trying to target casuals only? I don't buy his "Melee is too hard argument" because it really isn't. It's hard to fight top level players because...they're top level players. But playing the game normally wasn't hard. L-canceling isn't hard, SHFFLing is but that only takes a couple hours to get it down, wavedashing isn't hard to get down either, but you didn't have to play with these techniques to have fun (especially with items).

 

[Yobolight]

Melee was incredible for both casual and competitive play, which is a beautiful thing.

Sakurai seems to not believe that those two things can live side by side, that a game could be instantly accessible, while simultaneously being incredibly deep as you venture further into it.

Sakurai thinks you have to chose between the casuals and hardcore, and the sad thing is that he doesn't, but as long as he doesn't know that, I can't help but be pessimistic about Smash 4 after reading this interview.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm still certain that Sakurai was referring to the EXECUTION aspect of the game. You look at a lot of the things that were taken out in Brawl, they were considered "hard" by casuals and then some. Things like L-Canceling, Wavedashing (which was an exploit, mind you), and momentum when running and then jumping would be considered as such (not that I agree). Then you had things added in like random tripping (which no one liked at all), floaty physics, hitstun canceling, and infinite air dodges which would make the game easier and more "equal" amongst players of different skill levels.

That being all said, pure fighting game fundamentals remained intact. You still had your spacing, neutral game/footsies, zoning, etc. though one can easily say that the balance of the game affected that greatly.

 

[Smur]

I used to be a brawl die-hard, but after recently being converted to Project M and Melee, and then trying brawl again...it just felt so weird. I don't know why people think melee is hard..L-cancelling and Wavedashing took me a a day or two to get comfortable with. And I kind of agree with the OP . The game is looking like a faster brawl (not even much faster), just with different characters and it's killing my hype.

 

[Snakeyes]

As long as people have differing opinions, there will always be room for discussions, some more heated than others...

Thing is, we can't change Sakurai's mind, so this kind of discussions are useless and unproductive. Sakurai is the director of the game and will make it so as he wants, whether some like it or not.

That depends. You guys forward $4000 to my Paypal account and I'll go harass him about competitive Smash in Japan for a month. Deal?

I'm also willing to do it while wearing a pink Captain Falcon getup for an extra grand.

 

[Zonderion]

That depends. You guys forward $4000 to my Paypal account and I'll go harass him about competitive Smash in Japan for a month. Deal?

I'm also willing to do it while wearing a pink Captain Falcon getup for an extra grand.

I might have to get behind this idea...

Spoiler

 

[obeymalleo]

I think Sakurai should add an option that contains techniques from Melee's engine, and one that does not contain many techniques. This would probably make us, the competitive Smash community happy, alongside casual players.

 

[Luco]

I think Sakurai should add an option that contains techniques from Melee's engine, and one that does not contain many techniques. This would probably make us, the competitive Smash community happy, alongside casual players.

This would be impractical to code and very geared towards competitive players for no reason though.

@Vkrm: Yeah studies have been taking up my time lol. D=

Anywho, at those who think Sakurai doesn't care about competitive play, it seems pretty obvious to me he does because (lol, big surprise) he was the person who made the series and all the good and bad that came with it. So IMO he knows how to make a game catered to both and as far as I can see, whether or not he's considered us, the game actually looks really well balanced. So take it as you will but I find it hard to believe everyone's so pessimistic against the game when virtually all other evidence points towards it being a really great game. lol.

Not even gonna answer to the Brawl/Melee thing up there. I've said my part many a time, plenty know that.

I will say that i'm loving how smash 4 is looking so I wouldn't be worried hehe. :-)

 

[Orngeblu]

I really don't see a problem with wavedashing in Smash. It's not hard to do, and it's not necessary to spam it for mobility, but maybe you'll want to do some tricky movement here and there, but it's not necessary, you don't have to play super technical. Take Marth for example, or Ganondorf, or maybe even Squirtle from Project: M. Marth isn't a very combo-heavy character, and doesn't require a lot of technical skill like Fox would. Not to mention this won't affect casual players in any way, why would they care about these mechanics unless they like playing competitively?

I also wonder if people mistake dash dancing with wave dashing.

 

[greenluigiman2]

Sakurai seems to not believe that those two things can live side by side, that a game could be instantly accessible, while simultaneously being incredibly deep as you venture further into it.

Sakurai thinks you have to chose between the casuals and hardcore, and the sad thing is that he doesn't, but as long as he doesn't know that, I can't help but be pessimistic about Smash 4 after reading this interview.

Ummm, Smash 4 is pretty much the epitome of casual/hardcore living side by side based on what I've seen and read. Just because Sakurai doesn't "incorporate feedback" directly from the competitive players doesn't mean he doesn't care about them/us. He doesn't incorporate feedback from casuals either. The only feedback he incorporates into the game are things like characters and stages and such.

 

[Viceversa96]

That depends. You guys forward $4000 to my Paypal account and I'll go harass him about competitive Smash in Japan for a month. Deal?

I'm also willing to do it while wearing a pink Captain Falcon getup for an extra grand.

LMFAO

 

[Viceversa96]

This would be impractical to code and very geared towards competitive players for no reason though.

@Vkrm: Yeah studies have been taking up my time lol. D=

Anywho, at those who think Sakurai doesn't care about competitive play, it seems pretty obvious to me he does because (lol, big surprise) he was the person who made the series and all the good and bad that came with it. So IMO he knows how to make a game catered to both and as far as I can see, whether or not he's considered us, the game actually looks really well balanced. So take it as you will but I find it hard to believe everyone's so pessimistic against the game when virtually all other evidence points towards it being a really great game. lol.

Not even gonna answer to the Brawl/Melee thing up there. I've said my part many a time, plenty know that.

I will say that i'm loving how smash 4 is looking so I wouldn't be worried hehe. :-)

Keyword. It LOOKS balanced. I thought brawl looked balanced and look what we got http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_nerfs_(SSBB)

 

[Luco]

Keyword. It LOOKS balanced. I thought brawl looked balanced and look what we got http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_nerfs_(SSBB)

Sure.

But Brawl didn't have Namco working on it. :-)

 

[Viceversa96]

Sure.

But Brawl didn't have Namco working on it. :-)

I really hope Namco really is good at balancing

 

[Luco]

I really hope Namco really is good at balancing

Tekken has long been one of the largest competitive fighting games ever. Its fanbase used to rival that of Starcraft - I doubt there'll be a problem in that regard. :-)

 

[Morbi]

I really hope Namco really is good at balancing

Tekken has long been one of the largest competitive fighting games ever. Its fanbase used to rival that of Starcraft - I doubt there'll be a problem in that regard. :-)

This. It is the answer I would have given. Tekken is one of the most balanced fighting games out there. It rivals Street Fighter (in my opinion, it is more balanced than Street Fighter). I am actually a little worried that Sakurai will not give Namco the benefit of the doubt and let them balance. I have said it before, I will say it again. Sakurai couldn't balance the game if there were only two characters... and they were clones!

It is just a joke, but Jigglypuff dropping from Top to Bottom just shows me his incompetence in regards to balancing. Characters like Ganon also substantially dropped while characters like Link and Samus are perpetually stuck in/near bottom. Not to mention the horror that is Metaknight. Does he even play-test the game?

Back to the main focus, if Namco balances the game, we could be seeing a better game than Melee. If he just uses them for developmental support and that is it... we might have a Brawl 2.0 on our hands.

 

[mimgrim]

Keyword. It LOOKS balanced. I thought brawl looked balanced and look what we got http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_nerfs_(SSBB)

I just want to point out the first nerf listed;

The significant reduction of hitstun and ability to act during it make true combos rare.

The first part of that is utterly 100% false. Brawl actually has the same hitstun as Melee. That second part is what makes the hitstun seem less then what it actually is, because a programming error made it to where hitstun could be canceled. But still the actual hitstun when not canceled is the same, or at the very least very close, as Melee's.

Now I didn't read everything on that list but a lot of what I read was true but that thing about hitstun always bugs me when people say Brawl has less then Melee when in truth it doesn't, a programming error just made able to cancel the hitstun.

Just something I get tired of seeing over and over again e_e.

 

[Morbi]

I just want to point out the first nerf listed;



The first part of that is utterly 100% false. Brawl actually has the same hitstun as Melee. That second part is what makes the hitstun seem less then what it actually is, because a programming error made it to where hitstun could be canceled. But still the actual hitstun when not canceled is the same, or at the very least very close, as Melee's.

Now I didn't read everything on that list but a lot of what I read was true but that thing about hitstun always bugs me when people say Brawl has less then Melee when in truth it doesn't, a programming error just made able to cancel the hitstun.

Just something I get tired of seeing over and over again e_e.

The programming error inherently causes less hitstun based on the notion that it CAN/WILL be canceled. It is correct to use the phrase this way. They just skip the technical aspects that would make the statement more literal.

 

[mimgrim]

The programming error inherently causes less hitstun based on the notion that it CAN/WILL be canceled. It is correct to use the phrase this way. They just skip the technical aspects that would make the statement more literal.

The problem with that is that they continued to add "and ability to act during it make true combos rare." Which makes it seem like both hitstun itself was physically reduced AND able to be canceled at the same time, when it is truly just the latter which makes the hitstun seem less. Word choice man, it is important.

 

[Morbi]

The problem with that is that they continued to add "and ability to act during it make true combos rare." Which makes it seem like both hitstun itself was physically reduced AND able to be canceled at the same time, when it is truly just the latter which makes the hitstun seem less. Word choice man, it is important.

That is true, I certainty love to argue semantics from time to time. Not to mention it (the statement in question) actually incites and advocates ignorance based on its implications. However, I find it difficult to blame whoever typed it, it was an honest mistake.

 

[mimgrim]

That is true, I certainty love to argue semantics from time to time. Not to mention it (the statement in question) actually incites and advocates ignorance based on its implications. However, I find it difficult to blame whoever typed it, it was an honest mistake.

An honest mistake it seems like I see made almost every day e_e.

 

[Big-Cat]

I just want to point out the first nerf listed;



The first part of that is utterly 100% false. Brawl actually has the same hitstun as Melee. That second part is what makes the hitstun seem less then what it actually is, because a programming error made it to where hitstun could be canceled. But still the actual hitstun when not canceled is the same, or at the very least very close, as Melee's.

Now I didn't read everything on that list but a lot of what I read was true but that thing about hitstun always bugs me when people say Brawl has less then Melee when in truth it doesn't, a programming error just made able to cancel the hitstun.

Just something I get tired of seeing over and over again e_e.

So you mean to tell me that air dodging out of hitstun was a glitch?

 

[Viceversa96]

So you mean to tell me that air dodging out of hitstun was a glitch?

O___o

 

[ckap]

I know this is one of my first posts and all, but the only reason I ever picked up the controller to try melee was because watching people fly across the screen comboing people at lightning speed was an incredible sight to behold. When I watched people play Brawl, I was disappointed to see a far slower and a, in my opinion, less entertaining to spectate game. If SSB4 turns out the same way Brawl did and is just as slow, I can't see it ever grabbing audiences the way melee grabbed me.

I mean, I'm still a trashcan at melee, but the only reason I'm even trying to get better is because I want to do the same ultra-technical tricks that I saw people like Ken do in tournaments.

 

[Viceversa96]

Tekken has long been one of the largest competitive fighting games ever. Its fanbase used to rival that of Starcraft - I doubt there'll be a problem in that regard. :-)

Luco is there a interview or something that confirms they are balancing the game. I really want to see it. Maybe Mario will be top tier

 

[SmashChu]

I don't think that we needed a thread like this. While the competitive community is important and crucial, I don't think that it has been the main focus for Sakurai when it comes to Smash Bros. But, I'm pretty sure that they will please the community somehow. Just don't expect things like L-Cancelling, DACUS, or Wavedashing.

My sentiments exactly. To expand....

Smash Brothers is a multi-million dollar franchise. Melee sold 7 million and Brawl sold 11 million. Sakurai has a lot of people to consider when making these games. So he can't put a lot of focus into a far smaller community. You may not like it but that is the way it is. He notices and he will make some changes the community will favor. Fox was nerfed in Brawl likely because of his standings in competitive Smash.

 

[Viceversa96]

My sentiments exactly. To expand....

Smash Brothers is a multi-million dollar franchise. Melee sold 7 million and Brawl sold 11 million. Sakurai has a lot of people to consider when making these games. So he can't put a lot of focus into a far smaller community. You may not like it but that is the way it is. He notices and he will make some changes the community will favor. Fox was nerfed in Brawl likely because of his standings in competitive Smash.

I'm saying I want him to acknowledge the competitive community a little more since we are keeping his games alive. Melee was the most viewed fighting game at EVO. Nintendo almost stopped that.

 

[Morbi]

I'm saying I want him to acknowledge the competitive community a little more since we are keeping his games alive. Melee was the most viewed fighting game at EVO. Nintendo almost stopped that.

I actually never thought about it until I read your original post. I honestly think it is a good point that Sora Ltd. overlooks. I would hate to say that they don't appreciate what the competitive community does for the game, but I will go ahead and say it. Sakurai takes them for granted.