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Juggling With Marth (Work in Progress, More Valid Information being added)

3xSwords

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,193
Location
Bergen County
But the fact is, if you DO mess up, even a little, you're eating something that hits hard, fast, and has a **** ton of knockback. You have to perfectly tip that uair, and God forbid if you were trying to do something else, because I've had Snakes go THROUGH, or so it seems, my utilts and usmashes hardly ever work.

If Snake was a 7 or 8 to juggle, we wouldn't have a negative matchup with him. And I fully agree with fear's statement about nades, because Snake is heavy and never dies and has wtftilts. He could care less if he takes damage, because he will kill you quicker, even if he takes nade and uair.
T_T

Do I have to go at such great lengths?

I just tested with my friend.

FF bair: I could hit through this with even an untipper uair. Pffft... Perfectly spaced? No. The only way he can do so is if he catches you while you are jumping into the air. This is easily solved if you utilt and u-smash. Snake will NEVER go through those moves unless he catches you in the pre lag which is very unlikely.

Nades: Ok so the you both take damage and Snake will kill you quicker argument makes sense. BUT.... Nades deal 12% and tipper uair deals 13%. So let's do some math. If Marth hits Snake while he has a nade out then Snake takes tipper uair and nade so that's 25% while Marth takes 12%..... Hmmmm.... I don't know how much longer Snake lives than Marth but I sure as hell know that he won't live long if in 4 hits he is at 100% and Marth is at 48%.

Juggling is not why Marth doesn't have a better matchup. That's just stupid.

Are we done yet or can we finally say that Snake is like 7-8 juggling wise?
 

Punishment Divine

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
2,863
Location
Long Island, NY
T_T

Do I have to go at such great lengths?

I just tested with my friend.

FF bair: I could hit through this with even an untipper uair. Pffft... Perfectly spaced? No. The only way he can do so is if he catches you while you are jumping into the air. This is easily solved if you utilt and u-smash. Snake will NEVER go through those moves unless he catches you in the pre lag which is very unlikely.

Nades: Ok so the you both take damage and Snake will kill you quicker argument makes sense. BUT.... Nades deal 12% and tipper uair deals 13%. So let's do some math. If Marth hits Snake while he has a nade out then Snake takes tipper uair and nade so that's 25% while Marth takes 12%..... Hmmmm.... I don't know how much longer Snake lives than Marth but I sure as hell know that he won't live long if in 4 hits he is at 100% and Marth is at 48%.

Juggling is not why Marth doesn't have a better matchup. That's just stupid.

Are we done yet or can we finally say that Snake is like 7-8 juggling wise?
But you're taking everything as one at a time. If Snake mixes things up he can make it very difficult for you to juggle him, as he has many options of what to do, all of which are logical. Other characters are very one dimensional while you juggle them. Characters like Ganon and Falcon probably wish they had all the tools Snake has against juggle traps.

Also, I'm not sure on this seeing as I never do either, but can someone tell me if when Snake AD's while holding a nade, it drops, and if Snake shield drops and picks one up he can Z drop it in the air?

And I'm not saying that's why the matchup is bad. I'm saying if Marth were able to juggle Snake THAT WELL we wouldn't have as significant a problem against him.

I refuse to give up!
 

feardragon64

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
2,154
Location
San Francisco
I vote 7. I figure assume high level play from both players. If you're messing up with the spacing and stuff that's your own fault. Snake has more trouble getting out of it than Marth has doing it. Period.
 

3xSwords

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,193
Location
Bergen County
But you're taking everything as one at a time. If Snake mixes things up he can make it very difficult for you to juggle him, as he has many options of what to do, all of which are logical. Other characters are very one dimensional while you juggle them. Characters like Ganon and Falcon probably wish they had all the tools Snake has against juggle traps.

Also, I'm not sure on this seeing as I never do either, but can someone tell me if when Snake AD's while holding a nade, it drops, and if Snake shield drops and picks one up he can Z drop it in the air?

And I'm not saying that's why the matchup is bad. I'm saying if Marth were able to juggle Snake THAT WELL we wouldn't have as significant a problem against him.

I refuse to give up!
Really you should. If he pulls a nade out in the air the only thing he can do with it is throw it. Snake will rarely have a nade in his hands that he can do the normal throw animation with. If he does, his options are virtually the same. If he z drops he has to wait or else his AD will recatch and then he takes double the damage Marth does.

In my previous post I just showed you why FF bair and nades were not effective or smart options. Mixing up only applies when there are different answers to their actions. For example shielding blocks DB against Marth but if Marth goes for a grab then the opponent must do something other than shield in order to avoid being grabbed. Mixing up is simply punishing an opponent for using the same defense or move. But in this case, if the same move solves all his options it doesn't matter how many he has unless he can make Marth use something different in order to juggle then it is not truly mixing up and is therefore unqualified.

In order to really get out of juggle trap effectively the person trapped must not be put into the same situation and have a lesser or equal end of the overall damage. For this Snake has two viable options. That is momentum shifting nade or C4 (sideB is not good IMO) or Air dodging. Both can adequately fulfill both conditions successfully and require Marth to do something different if he is to counter either of them. However these options are not hard to counter for Marth if he expects them. Stuff like FF bair and nades are worries put on the back burner because even an untipper uair proves to result in unfavorable results for Snake.

As you can see Snake is really not different from the rest of the cast in terms of viable options. He has the AD option like everybody else and he has a momentum shift option that provides better aerial mobility. However he lacks a reliable option that will damage Marth favorably. If you go to SOLID's definition being towards a 1 means you are hard to juggle and can effectively punish you for doing so. But Snake? Look at his viable options. He lacks anything that will reliably punish Marth for attempting to juggle him. Therefore.... he is like 7-8 because at least he can deal some damage to Marth in some instances.

-This is over.

Edit: Thank you Fear.
 

Punishment Divine

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
2,863
Location
Long Island, NY
Really you should. If he pulls a nade out in the air the only thing he can do with it is throw it. Snake will rarely have a nade in his hands that he can do the normal throw animation with. If he does, his options are virtually the same. If he z drops he has to wait or else his AD will recatch and then he takes double the damage Marth does.

In my previous post I just showed you why FF bair and nades were not effective or smart options. Mixing up only applies when there are different answers to their actions. For example shielding blocks DB against Marth but if Marth goes for a grab then the opponent must do something other than shield in order to avoid being grabbed. Mixing up is simply punishing an opponent for using the same defense or move. But in this case, if the same move solves all his options it doesn't matter how many he has unless he can make Marth use something different in order to juggle then it is not truly mixing up and is therefore unqualified.

In order to really get out of juggle trap effectively the person trapped must not be put into the same situation and have a lesser or equal end of the overall damage. For this Snake has two viable options. That is momentum shifting nade or C4 (sideB is not good IMO) or Air dodging. Both can adequately fulfill both conditions successfully and require Marth to do something different if he is to counter either of them. However these options are not hard to counter for Marth if he expects them. Stuff like FF bair and nades are worries put on the back burner because even an untipper uair proves to result in unfavorable results for Snake.

As you can see Snake is really not different from the rest of the cast in terms of viable options. He has the AD option like everybody else and he has a momentum shift option that provides better aerial mobility. However he lacks a reliable option that will damage Marth favorably. If you go to SOLID's definition being towards a 1 means you are hard to juggle and can effectively punish you for doing so. But Snake? Look at his viable options. He lacks anything that will reliably punish Marth for attempting to juggle him. Therefore.... he is like 7-8 because at least he can deal some damage to Marth in some instances.

-This is over.

Edit: Thank you Fear.
Okay.

If you think you can juggle Snake that easy, I'll give it to you
 

∫unk

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
4,952
Location
more than one place
Who cares whether you think he's ridiculously easy to juggle or just easy to juggle. It doesn't really change how you play.
 

jmanup85

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
382
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Orlando,FL
NNID
jmanup85
3DS FC
1633-4569-8126
truth be told juggling Snake isnt all that hard and while he can use his FF bair its quite the risk if the Marth player sees it coming and reacts accordingly.I main Marth and my brother mains Snake and he knows full well that while hes above its usually in my favor (btw thanks for this thread it has helped me tenfold in dealing with Snake and many other chars)...anyways just as Marth has problems above Snake the same can be said when positions are reversed.

just my 2 cents
 
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