Joe Bushman(ganon) vs. Rob$(falco/fox)

[DippnDots]

One time for a physics project, I had to bull**** an interview I had with someone, and I told my teacher that the guy we interviewed was named Joe Bushman... I got an A on the project


Thanks Joe

(true story)

 

[soap]

joe bushman can still kick my sheik's *** on a regular basis

too good

how does his ganon do against your marth? im just curious cuz joe never pulls out ganon whenever we are just playing, he's either workin on his fox or playin bowzer or some ****

 

[linkmastersword]

ganon v marth is a good match, pretty **** even.

 

[technomancer]

Rob$ spammed lasers and then punished Bushman when he got predictable with his approaches, if anyone is wondering why he's so good, look at the amount of Joe's stuff in stocks three and four of match 1 that either completely whiffed or was preempted with a laser approach or nair.

I also request the vs. Caveman vids. I always thought Ganon had it in for Sheik in his heart, except for her butt needles.

 

[ToP CaT]

very nice, the beginning of three WAS indeed ownage seriously and wtf at rob$ being tech chased like 3/4 times in a row on multiple stages. This bushman guy can read minds apparently..anyhoo cool matches

 

[theFiend123]

I've always had trouble understanding Rob$'s style. He doesnt do anything creative, has average tech skill and seemingly standard mindgames.

rofl you're clueless. No, you certainly don't always "see" mindgames. What an amateurish thing to say.

I havent played Ken, but I can clearly see all the mindgames he uses in all of his videos.

you have no clue what you're talking about.

wow, Rob money is a ******, he gayed joe with fox like three times and still got his *** kicked.

amazing tech chasing, most crisp ganon ive seen.

you're a scrub and would get *** ***** by rob$. money match him $1000.

Rob$ is so generic and unoriginal. I don't seem to get why you guys love to watch a falco or a fox keeping on SHFFL over someone's shield while he could just grab and start a combo. People respect Rob because he's been around for ages, but fact is he fails at edgeguarding and changing his style.

scrub.

read sirlin's "play to win." This game is not about aesthetically pleasing your audience.

I just said that Rob$ didn't impressed me like when I watch PcChris or Forward combo Marth and being original (read : mindgaming his opponent)

rofl, you're hilarious.

i like how all these scrubs think they can see every single "trick" that's going on. I didn't know people could read minds just by watching a video.



everyone says KM has great mindgames and is aesthetically pleasing, right? Rob$ beat him at FC6. In fact videos are somewhere on youtube. Point? All you scrubs who claim to see all the "mindagmes" in a match...lol is all I can say.

Second - everyone who is whining about Rob$'s lackluster style: you guys will never win tournaments with your attitude for smash. If you're actually worried about "looking good" for the audience...you're not going to win vs the great players.

I have played against Rob$, at FC6. I got him down to one stock, Captain Falcon vs. his Sheik.

I don't understand it either. He's just..... solid.

Pools or tournament bracket? Well it's not the latter because you didn't make it into the bracket.

If you're talking about a friendly...then it's kind of sad to bring it up without explicitly mentioning the fact that it's a friendly.

Why? Because here at smashboards when people say "I beat him 3-2" it's always implied that it's a serious match (money match or tournament set).

If you're talking about a legit pool match, then disregard what I said. Then it's ok to cite it as an "accomplishment."

seriously and wtf at rob$ being tech chased like 3/4 times in a row on multiple stages. This bushman guy can read minds apparently..anyhoo cool matches

You don't need to guess to tech chase, although it makes the job much easier. But, all you need is really good reflexes.


Edit:

Some of the same arguments apply for Drephen. Everyone says Drephen's sheik is "boring" and that all he does is grab. Those are all scrubbish opinions. Drephen wins matches. If he uses grab majority of the time, so what? The point is to win, you do whatever it takes and you don't give a **** about how you look for your audience.

It's this mentality that separates the great players from the average, mediocre smash community.

I mean come on, when Bushman crouched on PKM stadium, he kept lasering without leaving the ground, it's not the way to get your laser lower !

rofl wow. you clearly have no idea what it's like playing in a high stakes game vs a top level player when big money is on the line. You're exactly like the "scrub" in sirlin's article, the one who sits back scrubbishly pointing out trivial mistakes in videos that you watch in the leisure of your home.

"oh man leik rob$ is so stooopid he dont kno how to shoot lazurs lo lololol" -Cf (scrub)

 

[XZalla]

Rob$'s laser was scary stuff..

Reps to Joe for nice attacks! ;>

 

[cF=)]

"oh man leik rob$ is so stooopid he dont kno how to shoot lazurs lo lololol" -Cf (scrub)

Ahah man you need to calm down, you don't know me, I don't know you, so how can you judge what I say when you clearly don't know what experience I have in this game. Over quoting Sirlin's guide makes you look outstandingly dumb, since you can't argue by yourself about why I'm not right.

Please, DIACF (die in a car fire).

 

[Drephen]

BACH has the vids of Joe vs Caveman, good luck getting them outta him.

 

[linkmastersword]

i'll do what I've gotta do. is that his user name?

 

[Bass.]

Joe is pretty **** gully. His style reminds me of my brothers. I don't know why Rob$ didn't stay Falco. It wasn't like he was getting blown out...

 

[theFiend123]

Ahah man you need to calm down, you don't know me, I don't know you, so how can you judge what I say when you clearly don't know what experience I have in this game. Over quoting Sirlin's guide makes you look outstandingly dumb, since you can't argue by yourself about why I'm not right.

Please, DIACF (die in a car fire).

Yes, quoting people who actually know about the "philosophical" aspects of fighting game theory is "dumb."

People quote credible sources all the time. It's a basic tenet of debate.

I quoted Sirlin twice, and both quotes were for the same purpose. The second instance was simply a review of the primary point of my post - the fact that you are a scrub because you criticized a very trivial aspect of Rob$'s gameplay as you sat back in your chair watching the match from a 3rd person point of view.

Please, kill yourself.

I don't need to know anything about your level of tournament experience to decide whether or not you are a scrub. I can make this decision solely based on your attitudes online and statements made previously in this topic.

Please, kill yourself...again. How are you in debate? You're probably one of the many awful debaters in there anyway.

 

[pdk]

stopped reading at "standard mindgames"

good lord

 

[Blademaster]

wow, here is a lot of material to learn about how fight against falco, personally, mi ganon have a lot of preoblems vs falco, hoe was so precising, he ataks in the right moment, good ****

 

[CopyCat]

great matches there

 

[ToP CaT]

wow fiend you made yourself seem like an idiot like 13 times right there...gg

 

[theFiend123]

wow fiend you made yourself seem like an idiot like 13 times right there...gg

You know, I'll be fair and certainly admit that I'm not totally infallible. Would it be alright if you pointed out the 13 times I acted like an "idiot" so I can at least attempt to make a rebuttal.

Let me carefully go over each and every point I made thus far in the topic and explain why I think my opinion is correct.

1. "I've always had trouble understanding Rob$'s style. He doesnt do anything creative, has average tech skill and seemingly standard mindgames." -Some person in this topic

My response: "rofl you're clueless. No, you certainly don't always "see" mindgames. What an amateurish thing to say. "

Explanation: I decided to brand this indivudal as "clueless" for one primary reason: it's the fact that he implied that he could "see" all of the mindgames in a match. He implied this when he portrayed Rob$'s game as having "seemingly standard mindgames." This is an invalid implication. Nobody is able to see all of the mindgames going on in a match because mindgames occur in a realm that you can't peer into. The result of "tricking" someone is not necessarily apparent in the match from a third person point of view.

Just because somebody does a "tricky" maneuver that leads to successful hits doesn't mean it was the result of a "mindgame." Likewise, just because someone lands a seemingly "simple" hit doesn't mean that there was no trickery associated with landing that hit. Therefore, I conclude that it is impossible to see all "mindgames" in a match and therefore the individual's assertion that Rob$ had "seemingly standard mingames" is invalid.


2. "I havent played Ken, but I can clearly see all the mindgames he uses in all of his videos" -Some individual who posted in this topic

My response: "you have no clue what you're talking about. "

Explanation - The above explanation fits perfectly in this scenario as well. The topic is the same. It's another individual who claims that he "clearly see all the mindgames [ken] uses in all of his videos." That assertion is false by virtue of the logic I described above.

3. "wow, Rob money is a ******, he gayed joe with fox like three times and still got his *** kicked.

amazing tech chasing, most crisp ganon ive seen." -Some individual who posted in this topic

My response: "you're a scrub and would get *** ***** by rob$. money match him $1000. "

Explanation: I argue that Rob$'s tournament record is more impressive than the tournament record of the individual who claimied that "Rob money is a ******" who "gayed joe with fox..."

Rob$ has been on the smash power rankings whereas the individual who made the fallacious claim about Rob$ has not. Furthermore, Rob$ has a number of high profile wins under his belt, and I think it's reasonable to assume that the collective skill level that comprises this group of "high profile individuals" is higher than the collective skill level of all significant people that soap has beaten throughout his tournament career.


4. "Rob$ is so generic and unoriginal. I don't seem to get why you guys love to watch a falco or a fox keeping on SHFFL over someone's shield while he could just grab and start a combo. People respect Rob because he's been around for ages, but fact is he fails at edgeguarding and changing his style." -Cf

My response: "scrub.

read sirlin's "play to win." This game is not about aesthetically pleasing your audience. "

Explanation: Cf complains that Rob$'s style is "generic" and "unoriginal." So far, there is nothing wrong with this statement. Certainly many individuals enjoy watching matches where new, innovative techniques are used, and clearly Cf is one of these individuals. There's nothing "scrubbish" about that.

The problem begins when Cf makes the following assertion: " I don't seem to get why you guys love to watch a falco or a fox keeping on SHFFL over someone's shield while he could just grab and start a combo."

Is it possible that his alternative options are, indeed, stronger than what Rob$ chose during his gameplay with Bushman? Absolutely. It's certainly reasonable to say that Cf's alternative option of perhaps grabbing bushman to start a combo is better than what Rob$ did during his match.

But, here is the problem with Cf's assertion. He's making these criticisms after he has already watched the entire match.

David sirlin concludes the following regarding scrubs: "The typical scrub match-evaluation goes like this: You watch the video all the way through, then think back to all the places where someone seemed to blow an advantage, miss something, etc."

Sirlin's description of a "scrub match-evaluation" seems awfully similar to what Cf did. Cf watched the match and then cited an instance where Rob$ "should've" done something else. This is precisely where the "scrub" attitude begins.

David Sirlin describes this nicely in the following few sentences: "Because your scrubby motive is to always think the best of yourself, rather than understand the truth, a favorite evaluation trick is to pull some sequence entirely out of context. This works by ingeniously ignoring all the expectations, patterns, psychological advantages, and momentum that the other player had established, and just focusing on an isolated incident.

What this does is to let the scrub get away with thinking "Sheeeucks! I woulda DP’d that!", or whatever. Bzz. Not only do you fail to notice how much easier it is to think "I woulda DP’d it!" when you ALREADY KNOW WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN (this is the special, scrubs-only variant of the psychic DP: the hindsight DP!), but the obvious fact is that you COULDN’T have. If you could have, you’d be winning tournaments too..."

Cf's comment was similiar to the imaginary "scrub" described in Sirlin's idea.

By saying that Rob$ "could just grab and start a combo" and that " he fails at edgeguarding", Cf is engaging the "hindsight [grab]" as Sirlin calls it. His accusation that Rob$'s edge guarding is poor is highly inappropriate. Cf should not make a relatively harsh accusation like that when he himself cannot do better in tournament.

How do I know he cannot do better in tournament? Because his tournament record is not as strong as Rob$'s.


5. "I just said that Rob$ didn't impressed me like when I watch PcChris or Forward combo Marth and being original (read : mindgaming his opponent)" -Some individual in this topic

My response: "rofl, you're hilarious.

i like how all these scrubs think they can see every single "trick" that's going on. I didn't know people could read minds just by watching a video."

Explanation: The explanation given in point 1 of this post covers the "(read: mindgaming his opponent)" portion of the post. I've already explained why it's foolish to say that, so hopefully you won't mind if I don't go over it again. The fact that Rob$ "didn't impress him" is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that opinion.

The fact that he implicitly claims that he has the ability to "see the mindgames" in a match is foolish.

6. "seriously and wtf at rob$ being tech chased like 3/4 times in a row on multiple stages. This bushman guy can read minds apparently..anyhoo cool matches" - Top Cat

My response: "You don't need to guess to tech chase, although it makes the job much easier. But, all you need is really good reflexes."

Explanation: I feel that my original response was adequate. You can ask any top professional (Mew2king, Ken in particular) and they will tell you that tech chasing can be achieved purely on reflex if you focus well enough.


7. "I mean come on, when Bushman crouched on PKM stadium, he kept lasering without leaving the ground, it's not the way to get your laser lower !" -Cf

My response: rofl wow. you clearly have no idea what it's like playing in a high stakes game vs a top level player when big money is on the line. You're exactly like the "scrub" in sirlin's article, the one who sits back scrubbishly pointing out trivial mistakes in videos that you watch in the leisure of your home.

"oh man leik rob$ is so stooopid he dont kno how to shoot lazurs lo lololol" -Cf (scrub)

Explanation: I'll allow Sirlin to answer this one for me.

"Tournaments, even for seasoned pros, are tense environments. As such, you’ll often see MORE mistakes, not less, in actual tournament footage. It can also tend to be slightly conservative, because people don’t always trust themselves to go for the flashy stuff. Another thing outside observers will miss in watching is that these matches MATTER." -Sirlin

Cf needs to realize that there is big money on the line in these tournaments. Rob$ made a mistake, but the manner in which Cf discussed Rob$'s mistake is inappropriate. The exclamation in the phrase "it's not the way to get your lasers lower!" blatantly instills tactless satire within his assertion. A statement like that one is consistent with the typical "scrub" attitude as described by Sirlin, who describes the "scrub" as being one who judges top players' mistakes and then claiming (explicitly or implicitly) that he would've done things differently.

Needless to say, Cf's assertion is "implicit" in this case with regards to what I described above.


In my second post, stated that it's good practice to quote knowledgeable individuals when supporting your argument.

I included no additional novel points in my second post.

So, in total, I count 7 points, and not all of them are independent/unique either.

You claim that I made 13 "idiotic" points. I challenge you to sift through my logic and explain why each and every point was "idiotic." If you are unable to do so, then ironically, your seemingly baseless vilification rebounds squarely onto your shoulders. In lay-man's terms, you'd be the idiot in this case...gg

 

[Gimpyfish62]

shut up lol

tenchars

 

[Drephen]

is thefiend Rob$ in disguise?

 

[DoH]

lol no, rob can't type that well.

 

[Angrylobster]

wow, the fiend just owned hard. Thread over

 

[Frozenserpent]

At first, I thought thefiend as merely one of those people who blindly overuse/misuse the term "scrub" and such, but he has perfectly valid points, and I can't agree more.

 

[Miharu]

Wow. Good ****.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

so why are we saying "thread over" and stuff? lol

basically these vids are awesome, sounds like we dont even care about the vids anymore XD

 

[ToP CaT]

is thefiend Rob$ in disguise?

nah just a fanboy

and to fiend umm i didnt read that massive essay you wrote explaining yourself...but who the hell rights that much?? that was like a character guide and a half dude. Just let it go....

and wtf at thread over...i thought this was about those videos not fiend defending rob

edit because! : i went back and saw how much you typed again...jeeeez dude..it was even more lame the second time. Put your incessant typing to good use somewhere man.

 

[technomancer]

WTF kids

Fienddude: Sirlin isn't the end all be all, and from what I can tell he's never played smash at all. While it's true that Rob$ was doing alot of laser gay and doing a Sirlin-style "come fight me or I own you cuz of laz0r hax," it's stupid to say alot of the stuff you said about everyone bein all scrubby, because you haven't seen them play, and their "style" might be fun to watch and mad ownage too, like PC, KDJ, Kizzu, Wes and Bum. Also, it's true that Rob$ did not make these vids for our enjoyment, someone else made them and Rob$ was trying to score some phat tournament loot, so the rest of you stfu too.

Mindgames aren't that hard to see; SSBM is not a chess match, it's more of a game of spades, where you're limited to play in the suit lead by the other player. Once all the cards are down, it's easy to see the strategies used; maybe you don't get the whole gist of it, but for next time, you know.

Bump for more Bushman vids and more STFU from the peanut gallery.

 

[cF=)]

so why are we saying "thread over" and stuff? lol

basically these vids are awesome, sounds like we dont even care about the vids anymore XD

Rob$ fanboy fails at keeping this on topic

On second thought, theFiend, I'll stay with my Diet Pepsi. I guess you'r angry because debating alone doesn't make your wang bigger, but that's the way it is. Accept the fact son.

Joe Bushman best ganon (after Gimpy).

 

[Gimpyfish62]

coke > all other soda pop (yeah i said both, deal with it XD)

regardless, these videos are amazing

 

[Endless Nightmares]

This set taught me wayyyy too much on how to fight space animals, thanks drephen, and joe is a ****ing beast.

I agree. At least it gives me a slim hope that my Ganon can beat all these Falco players around here guess I'll have to continue ****** Falcos with G&W for now

Also, kudos Gimpy for trying to sway us back on topic. I was slightly tempted to respond to theFried's rambling.

 

[linkmastersword]

yeah dude, G&W is an alright falco counter. His crouch is so small, and can juggle the living bejesus out of Falco.

 

[CStick]

the actual feat of a Ganny taking down a pro-level space animals player is awesome. Too bad the vids are old as hell now

also. saying Rob$ doesnt have mindgames is ********. His style might look kinda boring and simple, but that doesnt mean he doesnt have tech skill or mindgames. Thats just the way he plays. Even then, he places in the top 16 of major tourneys for a good reason. I guess he needs more Ganon practice, though

 

[linkmastersword]

cstick, check out the first video, look where ganon was fighting the whole time. exactly one ftilt away. that way falco will have to do retreating lasers, or full hops. its completely genious.

How about this saturday we do a ton of friendlies, my falco vs your ganon, then your fox vs my ganon. so we can improve in that match up.

 

[mog87]

mindgames blah blah they dont exist you cant see them and you cant see ghosts, unless youre whoopi goldberg, or swayze gf at the end of the movie, anywhoo... lets hope the ganon vs sheik vids get released, and drephen do you have any vids of your sheik vs bushmans ganon?


hmm... interesting i forgot i posted in this thread and essentially made the exact same post but this time changing the movie reference...weird...

 

[linkmastersword]

i would like to see some more joe bushman against ??? he's too good. like Magus times 1

 

[mog87]

i would like to see some more joe bushman against ??? he's too good. like Magus times 1

uh magus times 1= magus...you know the multiplicative identity property of the number 1....yeah...

 

[Endless Nightmares]

uh magus times 1= magus...you know the multiplicative identity property of the number 1....yeah...

Maybe it was a typo and it was supposed to be Magus x 10

 

[linkmastersword]

yeah right, I said what I meant and meant what I said.

I still have a 5 page single-space word document he gave me on how to fight peach!

both are animals, possible ditto? (will never happen)

I'm just eagerly awaiting That purple stuff.

 

[SuicideDolls]

awesome vids and lol @ the fiend owning tc and cf

 

[ToP CaT]

whoa dude, first of all..no ownage i will beat fiend at the actually game of smash and im sure cf will too

 

[Ijuka]

Hmm that fiend person is really smart, but is quoting other people too much. I think he shouldn't always rely on that sirlin or whatever. And he shouldn't use his knowledge to flame others, but to make himself become a good player himself.

I focus quite a bit in flashy useless stuff <_< But well, blabla...

Joe Bushman owns O.o