[Jan 3, 2015] Cincinnati Smash Revival Biweekly (Mason, Ohio)

[Overswarm]

Fun event, did better than I thought in Melee and saw some promise in some of the up-and-comers.

Questions/comments for TO:

Can you make the payout 40/30/20/10? I got $90 for first place, even though it went to the last game! Payouts of:

60 - OS
45 - Tako
30 - Fumbles
15 - Village Mascot

Seem a bit more evenly split, and it'd give the guy in 4th some money back, plus 3rd doesn't get hosed as much and there's not such a big gap between 1st and 2nd. In Brawl we typically did a split like this:

• 1st - 48%
• 2nd - 22%
• 3rd - 14%
• 4th - 8%
• 5th - 4% each (2 players)

Which would have been:

$72 - OS
$33 - Tako
$21 - Fumbles
$12 - VMascot
$6 - Rizner
$6 - Dr. X


Either would have been fine for me, I've just always been of the mind of "less for first, more for others". The basic idea being "in a full bracket, 5th gets at least their money back, 4th typically makes their entry AND venue fee back, 3rd and 2nd and 1st all make a profit". Up to you though.


I'd also suggest having an even number of pools (less byes in bracket), getting pieces of paper with station numbers on them and calling them out for pools, and putting all Melee on one side and all PM on another so people didn't have to move back and forth.


Melee
1: Drephen (Sheik) $96

Sorry I didn't bring my 3DS. Sad I didn't get to play you in bracket.

2: Salt (Peach, Marth) $48

Close games, you better step it up! :B

3: Kel (Pichu, Marth, Fox) $16

Pichu

4: Overswarm (Marth, Fox)

CP Green Greens

5: Mathos (Falco, Fox)

First time I've beaten you in tournament! I'm proud of me. Only took a decade or so. :B

It'd be nice if we both had more practice and were up to snuff on tech skill. We were both still missing l-cancels at teh end of the tournament >_>

7: Brovurdose (Fox)

Get outplaced, kentucky! - Sincerely, guy who lives in KY.

7: Ragu (Sheik)

GGs. With practice and focus I think you can do well, although given that the four people placing directly above you all played space animals means it'll be a tough road for a Sheik. Learn the Sheik gimp game ASAP.

9: VillageMascot (Falco)

Stop jumping when I come back with invincibility! All the Falcos do it and I don't know why!

9: Rizner (Fox)

Way to not play Kirby :D

9: ToastBread (Falco)

Close games! It's easy to get nervous when you're in a close set, but that goes away with time and experience. Assuming I continue playing and attending these, this is the easiest you'll find our matchup so definitely get ready to practice more!

-Avoid the 2 short hop lasers followed by an approaching short hop laser. It's super common by impatient Falcos and can be easily read. It got me a lot of grabs and up+bs out of shield during our set, both of which helped me tremendously.

-Your followup game was good, but you failed to seal the deal on most of them. It took you at least two iterations to "get the stock", so to speak. Because your approach game wasn't nearly as strong as your followups, it gave me a lot of opportunities for damage. Worry less about "continuing the chain" and more about positioning. If you are going to be forced to "end a combo", do it with a move that knocks me off stage, then edgeguard in such a way that the chain continues.

You would end a combo a lot by hitting me in such a way that I'd land on stage and tech away and you'd have to approach with a laser. That's called "over extending" a combo and means that you're putting a vulnerable spot in your chain. If the combo ends, stop, and get a good neutral presence and start again. If possible, end the combo by hitting the opponent off stage so they're vulnerable.

-Approach less. Like 99% of all the grabs and hits vs. you were from failed and baited approaches. I was able to play patiently and wait for an opportunity. Many of the times in our friendlies I'd waveland off a platform 4 or 5 times in a row and on the 6th you'd approach and get baired in the face! Be patient. You don't have a lot of chances with Falco, so make each chance count.

-Try to get off autopilot. I was able to distract you via conversation and get you back on autopilot a few times. Think consciously about what you're doing so you don't get read and punished like a megaman boss

PM
1: Overswarm (Bowser, Peach, Diddy) $90

lol

2: SneakyTako (MK, Wario, Pit) $45

Good games, but you need a solution to small stages. The stage list helped you a lot with your CPs being near impossible for me due to my lack of preparation and no bans, but it shouldn't have hurt you with the small stages. Bowser is good on small stages but not unbeatable in the slightest. Edgeguarding is still your weakest aspect, but you did better this time than others. You should beat me handily as I don't play PM except in tournaments!

3: Fumbles (MK, Icees) $15

You lack experience and it shows pretty evidently when you're exposed to new matchups. I typically only play Bowser and Diddy in tournament, but I can actively play like half the cast. Peach isn't really one of them though, I just know she's good against ICs and figured you didn't have much experience in the MU. Being able to use my peach and abuse your habits is a big crack in your armor, especially given how hard ICs can be CPed. You're gonna have to learn a whole lotta matchups or be a bit more patient in unfamiliar matchups. You ran right into me a lot when I was Peach and one of Peach's biggest faults is that her approach is awful!

4: VillageMascot (Link, Wolf)

GJ at 4th, sorry you didn't get money.

5: Rizner (Zolda)

Good attempt in pools with Kirby. If you know Zelda is gonna be changed in the next update I'd look for a second character ASAP to plan ahead!

5: Dr. X (Lucas)

Lucas is not competitively viable

7: Half Jack (Squirtle Squirt)

Fun games with you :D

7: Drephen (Ness)

Ness is not competitively viable either, Earthbound characters suck

9: Mathos

I saw you implement the glide toss in tournament! GJ, although Diddy will probably end up getting nerfed next patch because PM.

13: Smash64 (Bowser)

I'll let you know when I do a PM smashfest :D

 

[sneakytako]

 

[PiBs]

Fun event, did better than I thought in Melee and saw some promise in some of the up-and-comers.

Questions/comments for TO:

Can you make the payout 40/30/20/10? I got $90 for first place, even though it went to the last game! Payouts of:

60 - OS
45 - Tako
30 - Fumbles
15 - Village Mascot

Seem a bit more evenly split, and it'd give the guy in 4th some money back, plus 3rd doesn't get hosed as much and there's not such a big gap between 1st and 2nd. In Brawl we typically did a split like this:

• 1st - 48%
• 2nd - 22%
• 3rd - 14%
• 4th - 8%
• 5th - 4% each (2 players)

Which would have been:

$72 - OS
$33 - Tako
$21 - Fumbles
$12 - VMascot
$6 - Rizner
$6 - Dr. X


Either would have been fine for me, I've just always been of the mind of "less for first, more for others". The basic idea being "in a full bracket, 5th gets at least their money back, 4th typically makes their entry AND venue fee back, 3rd and 2nd and 1st all make a profit". Up to you though.


I'd also suggest having an even number of pools (less byes in bracket), getting pieces of paper with station numbers on them and calling them out for pools, and putting all Melee on one side and all PM on another so people didn't have to move back and forth.

I'll definitely change the payout rates now that we have more people attending tournaments, I honestly should have done it this week but from now on I will probably do a payout of 40/30/20/10.
I also will try to get the setups and pools set up in a more organized fashion. I just had 6 pools in pm and 5 pools in melee because that is the number of setups we had available when I started making pools. I will definitely set them up in an organized fashion where one side is pm and the other melee next time. It all turned out okay, but I hope to always improve. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Overswarm]

I'll definitely change the payout rates now that we have more people attending tournaments, I honestly should have done it this week but from now on I will probably do a payout of 40/30/20/10.
I also will try to get the setups and pools set up in a more organized fashion. I just had 6 pools in pm and 5 pools in melee because that is the number of setups we had available when I started making pools. I will definitely set them up in an organized fashion where one side is pm and the other melee next time. It all turned out okay, but I hope to always improve. Thanks for all the advice.

The tournament was fun and ran fairly smoothly, so you did a good job. I've run a lot of Circuits and done the whole bracket seeding / pool making / set up placing thing before. I've made the mistake of using odd # of pools and the like long ago too. :B

If you're ever interested in trying new things, "all pools" tournaments are the best. They finish faster and people get more matches. Plus its more representative of skill and less chance of being hurt by the bracket. Significantly less hype when it comes to finals though, and ditto to "big matches" in the tournament. I went to game 3 vs. Salt and almost had it and he came in clutch, but it was a heart pounder for both of us because our tournament life was on the line. In a pool it'd be tense, but not that tense.

You basically do it by basically cutting the pool in half each time, manipulating the numbers so your final pool has a small number of people fighting over money.

30 people = 5 pools of 6, top 3 advance

15 people = 3 pools of 5, top 2 advance

6 people = play out to determine who gets money

Initial pool gets 5 sets (as opposed to 6 sets with a 5 man pool [4 sets] and 0-2 bracket [2 sets])
Second pool gets 4 more sets for a total of 9 sets
Third pool gets 5 more sets for a total of 14 sets

It's pretty awesome. Setups are important though, so make sure you post in advance if you do want to try this and I'll bring some TVs.

I live somewhat near your work, all you'd have to do is be like "OS, I'm coming over and you tell me how to beat you" and I'll tell you. I tell everyone all the time forever 'this is how you beat me'. I am like 20 minutes from your work and am a walking hyperbolic time chamber for PM!

 

[sneakytako]

All pools is pretty legit, I remember OS ran them once and they were a blast.

We should actually try it out at fight night on Thursday. Can you explain how you figure out how to split pools and how many rounds we should play based on the number of entrants?

Honestly I CPed poorly in our later sets OS. I kinda wanted more data on bowser rather than force you to play diddy, I'm pretty confident in that MU. My wario needs some work still, but I might drop him completely.

Also, my pit will be ready soon.

We should talk about the ruleset. Can we all agree to take out dracs?

 

[Overswarm]

All pools is pretty legit, I remember OS ran them once and they were a blast.

We should actually try it out at fight night on Thursday.

Honestly I CPed poorly in our later sets OS. I kinda wanted more data on bowser rather than force you to play diddy, I'm pretty confident in that MU. My wario needs some work still, but I might drop him completely.

Also, my pit will be ready soon.

We should talk about the ruleset. Can we all agree to take out dracs?

You twice now have taken me to Green Hill Zone and expected to win!

Dracs is awesomeeeeee. It's a "hard counter", but so is Final Destination and Yoshi's Story. If you're going to have one hard counter you want to have as many as possible.

 

[sneakytako]

Yoshi's story wasn't legal. I wasn't confident I could beat your diddy on FD, and dracs is actually a really bad stage for MK.

And I CAN win on GHZ, I did it in the first set lol.

 

[PiBs]

Made a good survey to find out what people want for stagelist in PM. This will definitely not determine a balanced stagelist, but the community input will affect the final stagelist. Please respond so I can get a wide opinion!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SKCBYHG

 

[Overswarm]

We should actually try it out at fight night on Thursday. Can you explain how you figure out how to split pools and how many rounds we should play based on the number of entrants?

http://smashboards.com/threads/pool...aster-than-double-elimination-bracket.324691/

Here's a long, but shorter, version:

Managing tournaments that are all-pools:

1. No one plays more than one set in a row in their pool unless its at the end. No one gets up to "go get food" until their matches are done.
2. Be less lenient early on to prevent traffic jams. If someone leaves early in the pool, they'll have to play multiple sets in a row. This prevents using multiple TVs, which you WILL get when a pool finishes early.
3. Singles starts before Doubles ends. ALWAYS. Pools should be ready to go while doubles is being played.
4. Get their attention and tell them what they need to know before they know what they want to know. Station #s, pool #s, captains, pool sheets, pens, whatever.
5. Don't micromanage pools. Pick the top X people, where X is number of pools you have, and separate those people. Everyone is separated by location alone. This means some pools can be harder than others but that is okay. To do otherwise is bracket elimination.
6. After the first round of pools never under any circumstances switch people in randomized pool groupings unless it is to make players not play people they played in the previous round of pools. If me, Kel, Dr. X, and Tako all end up in a pool together in round two and didn't fight in round 1 that is fine. By that point we earned it.
7. Get setups, more setups = better. Optimum efficiency is # of players divided by 2 (since it takes 2 players to play a set). If you have a 32 man tournament you'd want 16 TVs. If you have only 8 you are working at half efficiency but will be at optimum efficiency after round 1 when you cut your playerlist in half!

To actually create pools:

1. Have more pools with less players for a faster tournament. 5 pools of 4 runs faster than 4 pools of 5. Ignore this rule when it makes the tournament better (3 pools of 4 > 4 pools of 3)
2. Attempt to limit the tournament to three iterations of pools, just three. It is tempting to do more but don't. Be brutal. People are going to get a lot of matches in no matter what and at most are going to lose out on 2 sets and that's if they'd go 0-2.
   
   EXAMPLE:
   
   

   Let's say there's 20 people. We want to do 3 rounds of pools, and are paying top 4.
   
   Let's do 5 pools of 4 and say top 2 get out to cut our player list in half.
   
   We then have 10 players left. We want to cut this in half again.
   
   We have two pools of 5, top 2 get out.
   
   We then have 4 players left.
   
   We have one pool of 4, and you pay out to those 4 players.
   
   That's a total of (4+3+2+1*5) + (5+4+3+2+1*2) + (4+3+2+1) = 90 sets.
   
   If we fell into the trap of "Wow, only top 2 get out? That's brutal man.... why not do more iterations of pools?" We would get this:
   
   20 players, want to do 4 rounds of pools, paying top 4.
   
   Let's do 5 pools of 4, top 3 get out.
   
   We have 15 players left.
   
   We have 3 pools of 5, top 3 get out.
   
   We have 9 players left.
   
   We have two pools of 4 (one extra tacked on to a pool), top 2 get out.
   
   We have 4 players left, they play for their placements.
   
   That's a total of (4+3+2+1*5) + (5+4+3+2+1*3) + (4+3+2+1*2) + (4+3+2+1) = 125 sets.
   
   Streeeeeeeetching that small amount of players makes your TWENTY man tournament have the same amount of sets as my THIRTY man tournament (31 players, 126 sets). That's the time difference between doing three iterations and being brutal and doing four iterations and saying "top 3 get out instead of top 2 in this round instead".

3. Cut your playerlist in half via round 1 pools. If you have 32 players, you have 16 left. If you have 30, 15. Do the math ahead of time and ask yourself "if I get 17 players, am I willing to do 4 pools of 4 with only one pool having 5?" so you don't get scared by odd numbers.
4. You want to end with only the amount of players you will be paying or close to it. This makes the final pool more exciting and better.
   
   EXAMPLE 2:
   
   

   I'll use my tournament as an example with 31 people.
   
   I want to cut it in half, so I want 15 people assuming I can easily cut this down to the amount of slots I'm paying out to (top 6).
   
   5 pools of 6 (one of 7)- top 3 advance
   3 pools of 5 - top 2 advance
   1 pool of 6 - play for placements
   
   See how clean that is? 5-3-1. 6-5-6. People get a lot of matches and the pool number shrinks by the same amount. Those are clean numbers.
   
   
   What if you have 24 people?
   
   (24) 4 pools of 6 - top 3 advance (notice this cuts your players by half; basic math here)
   (12) 3 pools of 4 - top 2 advance
   (6) 1 pool of 6 - play for placement
   
   Clean.

   EXAMPLE 3:
   
   

   What about a weird number, like 37?
   
   You want to cut it in half (18)
   
   6 pools of 6 (one of 7)- top 3 advance (notice that the number that advances if half the number of pools; this will always be the case to cut in half)
   
   18 left
   
   3 pools of 6 - top 2 advance
   
   6 left
   
   1 pool of 6 - play for placements

   
   
5. Number of pools multiplied by number of players advancing must = # you want (half the entrants).
   
   EXAMPLE 4:
   
   32 players / 2 = 16
   
   16 pools of 2 , top 1 advance
   
   8 pools of 4, top 2 advance
   
   4 pools of 8, top 4 advance
   
   2 pools of 16, top 8 advance
   
   Optimal scenario decided by how many setups and how many "1" seeds you have from previous iterations of pools (if any).
6. Always keep # of 1 seeds in mind.
   
   If you have 16 people and make 4 pools of 4 with top 2 advancing, you have 4 #1 seeds and 8 people left. If you have 2 pools of 4 with top 2 advancing in the next round you can easily place those 4 one seeds in those two pools evenly.
   
   If you have 21 entrants and make 5 pools of 4, top 2 advance (one pool has 5), you then have 5 #1 seeds and 10 people left.
   
   With 10 left, you have
   
   5 pools of 2, top 1 advance (5 remaining)
   3 pools of 3, top 2 advance (6 remaining, one pool o 4)
   2 pools of 5, top 2 or 3 advance (4 or 6 remaining)
   
   How do you divide up those #1 seeds? 5 pools of 2 is awful, 3 pools of 3 results in two pools having two one seeds and only two advance, and two pools of 5 results in two #1 seeds in one and three #1 seeds in another!
   
   The solution is to take your 21 entrants in round one and make 4 pools of 5, top 3 advance. You then have 12 players remaining with 4 #1 seeds.
   
   You will then get 3 pools of 4, with 4 #1 seeds distributed evenly, with top 2 advancing.
   
   You then get 1 pool of 6 with 3 #1 seeds and 3 #2 seeds.
   
   Way easier to fix problems prior to their start.

 

[Overswarm]

Yoshi's story wasn't legal. I wasn't confident I could beat your diddy on FD, and dracs is actually a really bad stage for MK.

And I CAN win on GHZ, I did it in the first set lol.

22 can win against AA all-in HU but it doesn't make it a good idea

 

[Kel]

It actually can be the correct play depending on stack sizes, blinds, and antes.......

 

[Overswarm]

It actually can be the correct play depending on stack sizes, blinds, and antes.......

I was speaking in abstract and you know it, mr. overextended metaphor parrot. >:[

 

[Drephen]

i most likely will be coming to this again, also bringing more new people. also pm teams or melee teams this time?

 

[PiBs]

i most likely will be coming to this again, also bringing more new people. also pm teams or melee teams this time?

PM teams this time, I switch the doubles events every month.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

is their always gonna be Melee & Project M only every month just saying

 

[Overswarm]

Kel doesn't play PM, so I'm gonna need a (good) PM teammate if someone wants to win doubles with me. :B

Fizzle are you going to this

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Kel doesn't play PM, so I'm gonna need a (good) PM teammate if someone wants to win doubles with me. :B

Fizzle are you going to this

I can team with you Sanic Power!

 

[SoulPech]

Kel doesn't play PM, so I'm gonna need a (good) PM teammate if someone wants to win doubles with me. :B

Fizzle are you going to this

I'm gonna be giving him a ride, so we'll most likely team.

 

[PiBs]

is their always gonna be Melee & Project M only every month just saying

Yeah, I only plan on support melee and pm right now. I can add more or different events in the future, but the community is geared towards these two games right now.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm gonna be giving him a ride, so we'll most likely team.

Ah, the ol' driver privilege. I've used that once or twice. That's unfortunate, I'd like Fizzle and I to continue our streak :B

I always wanted to do some sort of driver % system where I'd get X% of their winnings, potentially allowing me to win more by driving good players. "I'll drive, you give no gas money, but I get 15% of your winnings". They win $100, I get $15. They win nothing, I get nothing. Combined with my own winnings I'd get more in the long run!

But I'm lazy so I never did it

 

[Unit583]

Yeah, I only plan on support melee and pm right now. I can add more or different events in the future, but the community is geared towards these two games right now.

64. It's more popular than you'd think. Plus it's the only game I'm decent at.

 

[SoulPech]

Ah, the ol' driver privilege. I've used that once or twice. That's unfortunate, I'd like Fizzle and I to continue our streak :B

I always wanted to do some sort of driver % system where I'd get X% of their winnings, potentially allowing me to win more by driving good players. "I'll drive, you give no gas money, but I get 15% of your winnings". They win $100, I get $15. They win nothing, I get nothing. Combined with my own winnings I'd get more in the long run!

But I'm lazy so I never did it

I'm still not sure if he's still able to go yet.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut if you want to team and if he can't, then we should. Puff/Bowser is pretty dumb.

edit: fizzle is going.

 

[Russy]

I'm still not sure if he's still able to go yet.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut if you want to team and if he can't, then we should. Puff/Bowser is pretty dumb.

nobody wants to team with ol' Russydorf

 

[Overswarm]

I may or may not be able to go due to saturday being my wife's birthday, mostly depends on what plans she has

 

[PiBs]

Bump. Updated events, time schedule, payout, and PM stagelist.

 

[Overswarm]

This is still an awful, awful stage list.

Likely won't be attending, wif'es birthday on saturday.

 

[sneakytako]

Collin, can we add like one more small/medium stage? I guarantee you most people are just going to ban norfair and skyworld unless they have a very good reason not to.

Edit: Wait did you just spite me and take off norfair lmao.

 

[Overswarm]

Yes he did

 

[SoulPech]

Deconfirming this.

I forgot EVO is this weekend.

 

[PiBs]

I plan on streaming EVO at the event, probably on a big projector. If no projector, then at least 2 large TVs.

 

[mers]

Hey y'all. I'm not normally part of this region, but I'm visiting family in Kentucky, and I wanna come to this.

I'm pretty good (place reasonably high in Texas, top or near top in Kentucky, beat Jiano, etc). Does anyone else who's good wanna try and win Melee teams with me?

Also I'll bring a GC and Melee disc, but I don't have a TV here.

 

[sneakytako]

I keep checking this thread hoping that the OP stagelist has been changed.

To no avail.

Soooo I'm just gonna try asking: can we try putting castle siege in? Honestly I haven't played the stage very much and would like to see how this stage affects the meta.

 

[PiBs]

I keep checking this thread hoping that the OP stagelist has been changed.

To no avail.

Soooo I'm just gonna try asking: can we try putting castle siege in? Honestly I haven't played the stage very much and would like to see how this stage affects the meta.

Castle siege is awful dude.

 

[PiBs]

Hey y'all. I'm not normally part of this region, but I'm visiting family in Kentucky, and I wanna come to this.

I'm pretty good (place reasonably high in Texas, top or near top in Kentucky, beat Jiano, etc). Does anyone else who's good wanna try and win Melee teams with me?

Also I'll bring a GC and Melee disc, but I don't have a TV here.

Cool, hope to see you this Saturday. If you get there a bit early I'm sure you will be able to find a partner for doubles. However, we switch off between doubles events and are running PM doubles rather than Melee.

 

[Overswarm]

Castle siege is awful dude.

He didn't say you liked it, he said it should be added to make a balanced stage list. No one should care if someone 'likes' a stage.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Can we add Halberd to the stagelist?

 

[sneakytako]

Like seriously, how many times have you actually played on castle siege? Maybe once/twice?

 

[Russy]

I keep checking this thread hoping that the OP stagelist has been changed.

To no avail.

Soooo I'm just gonna try asking: can we try putting castle siege in? Honestly I haven't played the stage very much and would like to see how this stage affects the meta.

Seconded for Castle Siege

 

[PiBs]

Halberd and Castle Siege are some of the least liked stages of the community. Of 22 votes halberd and castle siege got 5 and 4 votes respectively, each falling in the less than 25% of the vote.

 

[Overswarm]

Halberd and Castle Siege are some of the least liked stages of the community. Of 22 votes halberd and castle siege got 5 and 4 votes respectively, each falling in the less than 25% of the vote.

He didn't say you liked it, he said it should be added to make a balanced stage list. No one should care if someone 'likes' a stage.