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Jab lock options--Possible INFINITE?

TheReflexWonder

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I think a thread that highlights the various options to start, continue, and end a jab lock for Squirtle (and Charizard, apparently) would be a good way to get an active thread in here. I don't quite understand Charizard's jab lock mechanics, so I'm hoping someone else will post something informative that I can quote into this post. In the meantime, I have lots to say about Squirtle.



Squirtle's Jab Lock setups

Jab Locks in general are hard to start, because they require your opponent to miss a ground tech, but when playing around with platforms, Squirtle has a sizeable amount of moves that help put the opponent into position. B-Air, F-Air, N-Air, and U-Air all have potential to hit a shielding opponent off of a platform when they are right next to the edge. Among those, I believe U-Air has the most "push". D-Air, while normally somewhat risky, hits multiple times, which means that it pushes the opponent more than usual when they shield, and it can shieldstab as well, so even if you don't push them off, you have a chance of damaging them, which is always good.

When you're on a platform with an opponent, F-Tilt sends the opponent straight across the ground, and will easily push them off in an unavoidable tumble animation where they will be forced to either tech or be a target for an easy jab lock. Also, when you and the opponent are both on the ground, if they don't DI a N-Air upwards, they'll pretty much have to tech, as well. A good option to keep in mind.



Squirtle's Jab Lock starters

In order to actually start a Jab Lock on a grounded opponent, Squirtle has the highest amount of options for any character in Brawl. Most commonly-known are his single jab, his second jab, and his F-Tilt. F-Tilt is not good if you want to keep the opponent next to you. Jab 1 and Jab 2 seem to have about the same amount of distance, but you can jab cancel Jab 1 more quickly, so I would recommend constantly jab-canceling the first jab and moving forward. However, with the discovery of unsweetspotted aerial locks, such as Peach's B-Air Lock, aerials were tried, and at least two of Squirtle's aerials are useful for that at some point: the unsweetspotted ("late") B-Air and the unsweetspotted ("late") N-Air. I don't know the percentage when these aerials no longer start a lock (testing would be good), but I know that they work at low percentages at least. Also, when fatigued, the aerials should work until higher percentages, which is a currently-miniscule boost to fatigued Squirtle's play. This gives you two possible options from the air and three possible options from the ground.

Now that I think about it, if the short-hop is fast enough, I think it may be possible to jab lock someone to the edge, do a short-hopped, unsweetspotted B-Air on the other side of the opponent, and repeat the jab lock to the other side. This would depend on two things: "Will the unsweetspotted B-Air hit the opponent before the lock ends?" and "Will the unsweetspotted B-Air be weak enough to continue a Jab Lock even after the damage from the first portion of the Jab Lock?"

Testing shows that what was said in the above text does not work, as Squirtle can't get the fastfalled B-Air quickly enough.



Squirtle's Jab Lock finishers

As for finishers, Squirtle has a couple of useful ones. Up-Smash is the most obvious; deals the most damage out of all of his grounded moves, and it will usually be your best killing option. Forward-Smash and Down-Smash both make for good alternatives, especially when the ceiling is somewhat high, like on Yoshi's Island or Jungle Japes. Forward-Smash deals more damage and knockback, but Down-Smash has a larger margin of error, since it has a larger hitbox and it stays out longer.

If you lock them at a low percentage, you can get an Up-Tilt, Down-Tilt or immediate U-Air and attempt to combo them from there. Keep in mind that the U-Air will only land on taller characters, though. You can grab and Up-Throw to attempt to combo as well, but that's best done from a hydrograb, as explained below.

Also, a Jab Lock sets up for a free hydrograb to the edge afterwards, which might give you an easy gimp or lots of pummels and a throw, depending on your opponent's response. However, basic psychology dictates that they'll be frustrated and attempt to get out as quickly as possible, which maximizes the chance of an easy gimp.



Squirtle's Jab Lock infinite...?

There is also the possibility of a Jab Lock infinite. I talked about this with a few people before, but it sort of faded into obscurity.

Watch 0:08-0:12 of this video.

As you can see, when I did my first and second jab, I went past Snake and I was able to continue the Jab Lock from the other side. If anything, this definitely shows that an infinite is possible. Since the effects of Squirtle's jab are the same no matter what part of the jab hits, it might be possible to simply single jab and walk forward more than normal before doing another hit each time; this might be enough to go through the opponent and start it from the other side.

It's not plausible, because Smash DI will push the opponent far enough to seemingly prevent you from getting far enough into them per hit to let you eventually get behind them.

However, if they do not Smash DI each hit, testing shows that this is fairly easy to do with the right timing. Even if they correctly Smash DI, we could do a late N-Air on the opposite side of them when we get to the end of the stage and hope that they miss the necessary tech so we can Jab Lock them a second time.

Maybe if we turn around mid-walk, a hit would send them in the opposite direction and counteract it? If so, a doop-walked single jab or F-Tilt backwards while on top of them might do the trick. Or, if there is an undiscovered shellshift -> jab, that could be an infinite in itself, and it would look cursed sexy.

Everyone, give this a look and help yourself by helping me with testing. Also, if you learned something from this, good for you.
 

tocador

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Reflex, your the reason i *second* PT seriously xP!

A question tho, wich of the "locks" send the opponent closer, F-tilt/Jab1 or jab2? Cause you know, i kinda wanted to know the best for jab locking.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Reflex, your the reason i *second* PT seriously xP!

A question tho, wich of the "locks" send the opponent closer, F-tilt/Jab1 or jab2? Cause you know, i kinda wanted to know the best for jab locking.
Always glad to hear that I'm an inspiration, heh...but, to answer your question...

F-Tilt is not good if you want to keep the opponent next to you. Jab 1 and Jab 2 seem to have about the same amount of distance, but you can jab cancel Jab 1 more quickly, so I would recommend constantly jab-canceling the first jab and moving forward.
 

TheReflexWonder

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So what do you know about Zard's jab lock Reflex? I've never heard of him having one, is there a vid of this?
I know very, very little. I do know that at least one single jab makes them "lock" and stand up, but I've never been able to get a second one to keep them in the "lock" stun. As a result, I know that you can at least get a single jab -> Rock Smash/F-Smash at low percentages.

I'll see if I can dig up information.
 

Miles.

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at around 50% is when aerials will start needing to be teched, i follow all aerials up with a jab when i land. that works sometimes. also you can jab lock out of a ftilt lock like against a wall but you can jab lock forever.
 

T-block

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Nice thread Reflex.

You might wanna add ceiling setups, like u-throw > jab. Situational, but it's something to keep in mind if you find yourself on Luigi's Mansion, Yoshi's Island Pipes, along with some parts of Pictochat. I've experienced the same thing with Charizard. The first jab seems to work, but the second always breaks the lock.
 

Toby.

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Charizard's jab lock is bizarre. I'm pretty sure that I've had the second hit maintain the lock, but I have no idea why. It's not that important for charizard to continue the lock because of the massive damage output he can generate from a forced standup, but still...its strange.
 

Bomber7

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Oh, I remember doing that. I made a thread months ago trying to describe it but I never was able to post a video to show it. Most commonly I found an f-tilt will start it up but then it's up to you to actually pull that off. I tried and tried but kept failing. I'm actually now thinking about trying again seeing as you pulled it back up. :)

I think I'll hit training mode and see if I can't get it this time around seeing as I have a tournament to go to tomorrow.

Edit: I think what mainly made it hard for me was the fact that I used Jab 1 and 2 in the jab lock, not jab 1 continuously.
 

Cracker1204

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I got 3 with charizard actually... I think it may have something to do with the different hitboxes of his a...or maybe the percentages...as far as I know his A has 3 different hitboxes.
 

Bomber7

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It's really hard. I have a clip on my Wii from when I first found out I could do it with squirtle. It's against sheik. I managed to pull it off with jab 1 and 2. I still have it somewhere I think. I'm not sure. If I remember, tomorrow, I'm going to hook up my wii and see if I can find it, if I do, then I'll record it via my webcam on my laptop because I have no other way of getting it posted unless I do it myself like this and I'll try to get it posted by tomorrow. The only reason why I gave up on it is because of the consistency issue. I know it's pretty lame. But seeing as I'm going to attempt to get better, I'm going to try and see if I can get consistent with that.
 

Steeler

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i'm thinking you need to delay the second jab as long as possible...but i have done a jab lock like twice with charizard so don't take me too seriously here.

great post reflex. you are showing me that i really need to work jab locks into my game. thanks.
 

Aposl

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If you up tilt lock, into up air, foot stool, then fast fall into a neutral air you can begin jab lock without worrying about the tech, then possibly continue into infinite! Mwahahaha. Discovered this a while ago but have not mastered it, I think reflex could though. Also, if the opponent D I's the jab why not just chase him down with the second jab?
 

Kith

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Actually, I'm pretty sure at very low percents nair will lock. I have to double check though, but I'm pretty sure it does.
 

Kith

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Yeah, but even if he wasn't DI'ing behind him, it is possible to pull that off. The only thing that might stop it is if the opponent smash DI's away perfectly, which is something that's already been said before.
 

GimR

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Nair doesnt lock unless they miss the tech.

And I know you cannot tech a footstool that wasnt what I was talking about.


Nair my be able to "Jab Reset" but it doesnt Jab Lock.

If you could show a vid of it Jab Locking I would be Impressed.



This is Miles.

ugh, you can use it to start a jab lock.



Also you said it would work if he missed the tech in responding to Aposl's combo.


Aposl's combo involved a footstool so what were you talking about?
 

PokemonMasterIRL

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ugh, you can use it to start a jab lock.



Also you said it would work if he missed the tech in responding to Aposl's combo.


Aposl's combo involved a footstool so what were you talking about?
I am talking about Nair.

Nair often hits them in a way that at around 40 to 60% you can set up a jab lock if they miss the tech.


Also pretty much any aerial/grab can set up a jab lock if they miss the tech.


Nair just happens to be the only kinda legit one.
 

saviorslegacy

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Doesn't anyone pay attention to my threads!?

A list on people who can get out of the platform fall- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245363

A list on EVERY move that ground locks- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245427


That said, that combo on Snake was more than escapable.
Just about the only way to make a jab lock combo legit is by a footstool and I already tried with Squirtle.
footstool combo- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_47ekfNt7lA

I have probably put more research into ground locks and footstools than anyone else in this site.
I have found many ways on how not to make a footstool combo and how TO make one. Sheik's Saltus combo is a perfect example.
Saltus combo- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUhS8RQrOU4

I even know the footstool... hit box (I will eventually release it).

Jab lock research only has ONE hope.
I call it footstool canceling.
It is basically where you reverse the momentum and fall right by the person who was footstooled.
Right now I only know of two characters that can do it. One of them is ZSS.
ZSS footstool combo- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCAaOhH6UUg&feature=related

If anything look into Zard's Rock Smash. It might be able to momentum shift. Other than that... I can't think of anything to help you right off of the top of my head......
 

saviorslegacy

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We kind've stopped awhile ago :]
You mean back when I was doing all that stuff with footstools?
That was kinda what led up to me ditching the idea and making a video that leads to lins about everything that you could ever want to know about footstool.
 

CoonTail

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Well honestly it looks more and more like only footstools and missed techs lead to jab locks. Like i said in earlier if you f-throw CG a character who can be(Only heavy's and fastfallers from 0-35 or 40%) if they DI back towards 30 they can get out but the must tech otherwise you have another jab lock options. So maybe we need to be more up on the real ways to jab lock and not the possible because honestly from this whole thread the only legit jab lock openings are missed techs and footstools.
 
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