Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[Onxy]

....People actually pay attention to my posts? This......I never thought I would live to see this day...

Also, how do you guys approach with Ivysaur? I find that a tipped full-hop-Fair from above seems to be better than a Bair approach, in most situations.

 

[Steeler]

fair, bair, and nair...basically.

 

[Onxy]

Nair isn't a good approach on most opponents. Only the fat ones can be affected by Nair as an appraoch. Even then, it's not too great.

 

[Steeler]

i ordered them that way for a reason.

usually razor leaf is a part of my approach. none of ivysaur's ground attacks really seem like good approachers to me though. :\ not easy to follow up on them.

 

[Onxy]

No, I mean it shouldn't even be on a list of approaches. It can work, but it's too dangerous. Ivysaur wants to safely approach by using ranged attacks so she doesn't get hit or grabbed. That's the last thing Ivysaur wants to do.

 

[popsofctown]

fair is safe to approach with? It doesn't have oodles of landing lag?

 

[Toby.]

fair is safe to approach with? It doesn't have oodles of landing lag?

You can autocancel it

 

[Onxy]

I don't get it. Are you talking about full-hopping it?

 

[Toby.]

Yes, its just giving ivysaur enough time to complete the animation before landing.

If you full hop the fair and retreat in at the end you can cover your landing with a ftilt or dtilt when they try and punish you.

its not really autocancelling, im just laaazzy

 

[Onxy]

Please, don't call it autocanceling, then. You had me excited

 

[Toby.]

lol. Its not much different to be honest. The application is the same, its just that you cant rush in and short hop it. you wouldn't want to do that with ivysaur anyway, so it doesn't matter much.

but because its you onxy, i promise not to say it again

 

[zeta]

does no one just walk up and ftilt?

 

[Onxy]

We need videos on what's a good way to approach with all pokemon, lol.

 

[choknater]

does no one just walk up and ftilt?

this is my favorite approach lol

in all honestly, i don't really approach with ivy. just camp with razor leaf/bair/dtilt/ftilt and wait for bullet seed opportunities. if i am really forced to approach i just walk up and ftilt, running shield grab, or nair in their face

 

[Itburns]

i like to FF bair as an approach, then if they start SHADing towards you i mix it up with a sh into a late nair.


Also I stopped using bulletseed. people do DI out of it to easily.
autocancel nair, dj nair is my new bulletseed.

 

[Onxy]

Well, someone tell me how well the Razor Leaf backwards to Bair to knock off hoggers, works. When you get to it, that is

 

[Itburns]

I tried it onyx.. Ill tell you its benefists and weaknesses.

The thing with this is that the razorleaf has a long animation and even if you b-stick it still has really bad recovery lag.

the benefit of this way of recovering is Bair is good at getting people off the ledge because of its 2 hits and its arc hits people who tether stall.

BUT keep in mind that to recover you have to hit u/b+b or sometimes he will vinewhip the other way.

 

[Icy_Eagle]

Yes, its just giving ivysaur enough time to complete the animation before landing.

If you full hop the fair and retreat in at the end you can cover your landing with a ftilt or dtilt when they try and punish you.

its not really autocancelling, im just laaazzy

Actually, if you perform the fair ASAP you can short hop it without landing lag, you can also full jump fast fall it without landing lag.

How much do you guys use b-seed? I hardly ever use/remember it

 

[Bestiarius]

How much do you guys use b-seed? I hardly ever use/remember it

Anytime I'm in close range with someone. It's one of the best, if not the best, punishing moves in the game. If you don't use it to punish, you aren't using Ivy even close to full potential.

 

[Steeler]

bullet seed is ivysaur's most important move.

 

[Onxy]

bullet seed is ivysaur's most important move.

Yeah, if you're horrible with her. Fair, Nair, and Bair are all more useful than Bulletseed. Bulletseed is great, still.

 

[Steeler]

i AM horrible with her. but good bullet seeders make ivy one of the best damage dealers in the game. one bullet seed makes a huuuuuge difference in a match against a mid to heavy weight.

no really though, bair is nice but doesn't do jack squat by itself. nair is really good. only weak is its range but you can get around shieldgrabs. fair is better than bair imho.

 

[Onxy]

i AM horrible with her. but good bullet seeders make ivy one of the best damage dealers in the game. one bullet seed makes a huuuuuge difference in a match against a mid to heavy weight.

no really though, bair is nice but doesn't do jack squat by itself. nair is really good. only weak is its range but you can get around shieldgrabs. fair is better than bair imho.

Yeah, I'm starting to think so, also. Bair is really good though, but it's hard to followup with a Ftilt, or anything due to the game's limited controling. Bair is just great for getting people off of you, and Fair makes a great approach. Do you know how much vertical range Fair has? It's like an Uair.


Edit: Fair might be better than it, but never ignore Bair. My last game I had recently, I lost some matches because I left Bair alone. I won some later because I started using it again, lol.

 

[Bestiarius]

I don't suck with Ivysaur, and Bullet Seed is a staple of her gameplay. I don't use bair as much as I should, though.

 

[Itburns]

I use to like bulletssed... but i honestly think reliance on it is a bad thing. Im starting to agree with how DI'able it is... I'd say use at your own disgretion, Ivysaur has way to much options to focus playstle on one move.

Bair is a whole lot better than fair. you can autocancel it, dj after for followups, chain it and you can delay it after an empty hop to get a single hit. you just dont have that many options with fair. Fair doesnt even kill till higher percentages and has terrible landing lag.

 

[Retro Gaming]

You can SH Fair and not lag. I do it a lot. I even do it from the ledge to clear my way onto it. Fair has no lag unless you start it too late or try to FF. Fair and Bair are moves with different purposes.

Ivysaur needs Bullet Seed, but you need to be smart about it. If you are getting punished for it more than you're punishing with it, then you're probably using it too much. The damage output is terrific, but the pop-up hit is very easy to DI out of and be punished for it. I've been looking for more ways to land Bullet Seed without the pop-up hit, as that's overall more reliable.

One thing I've been thinking about is the Nair spike. I haven't been able to try it in game yet, but when you Nair spike someone into the floor of the stage, don't they seem to lag for an unusually long amount of time? That seems like the perfect opportunity to fall into them with Bullet Seed.

 

[Itburns]

im aware that you can sh fair with no lag, but as you stated it does have lag if you start it late or FF it. to me that says alot, it means that your only options come after you land. even then the mix ups are only good when it is properly spaced and blocked.
It has is purposes but no way can it be as useful as bair to mix up and mindgame

The thing about nair spiking while on the ground is that you dont know which hit will spike them. If its the last couple of hits then maybe...

 

[Retro Gaming]

Well, I was reading the top of this page I think and people were debating Fair so I just decided to post that bit. I agree with you, though. I do not think Fair is as versatile as Bair. I wouldn't even spam it because if you ever want it to kill it has to be fresh.

Nair doesn't have spike frames on the entire move, does it? I thought it was in the later half of the move's duration. That seems like something useful to be frame tested.

 

[Itburns]

hmm Ive always though that it spikes from his belly. Ive spiked with nair midway through the move, infact I think one of those spikes is on the PT combo video

 

[CoonTail]

Yea I learned about n-air spiking a while ago and the move has spike animations throughout the entire motion it creates. AT all times where Ivy is spinning their are a couple live hitboxes, most just trapping and damage packing, but the ones on the bottom towards ivy's belly or butt are the spike frames. In order to spike you usually need to use ivy's n-air like squirtles d-air and what I mean is that based on which direction would DI while your excuting the move will cause the player to not only leave a move a certain way but also have them hit with different hitboxes of an attack. Just to keep everyone for example if I hang off the edge with squirtle on the right side of yoshi's waiting for a falco to recover vertically with his up b, I will drop jump d-air and DI to the right so that squirtles hitting the falco with the side of the attack so when falco gets hit by the knockback hitbox it will send him into the level for a level spike. Ivy's N-air is similar because in that same scenario if you switch ivy with squirlte instead of doing the D-air I would N-air and DI upwards just as I had started to hit with the N-Air once I see falco getting hit by the hitboxes on Ivy's belly I DI towards the stage and essentially let him out of the attack early, but since the attack was hitting with the spike hitboxes when I DI out of the n-air the last box to hit him before he is released is a spike hitbox thus resulting in controlled Ivy n-air spikes.

LOL a mouthful I know but its a surefire way to get n-air spikes. Overall you just need to experiment with Ivy and all the answers start to show themselves the spike hitboxes showed themselves real quick when experimenting with the n-air

 

[Onxy]

Is it me, or is the controlling for Ivysaur really bad? I can hardly pivot-grab, do a turn-around attack, or use a certain special attack, when I need it.

 

[CoonTail]

Is it me, or is the controlling for Ivysaur really bad? I can hardly pivot-grab, do a turn-around attack, or use a certain special attack, when I need it.

I dont find the controlling for ivy bad onyx I find it slow and to some slow may be bad but to me it was just alot harder to learn.

Second I posted this same thing in the Ivy moveset discussion but figured Id have it put in the tactical discussion too. I was playing recently and I managed to dodge DeDeDe's CG with Ivy's U-tilt and it was beyond luck because as I played a bit more when I predicted a grab I would U-tilt once or twice evading both grabs, then bulletseed resulting in a nice mindgame lock in for a good 50%. I have tested to see if you can just continuously U-tilt evading each grab as DeDeDe keeps attempting to grab you and I am doing the same for falco now and it seems you can do it with a small margin of prediction of the opponents grab.

I know this seems flashy and a little unnecesary due to spot dodging but in the situation where I pulled it off it was a great mind game because it made the DeDeDe think that once the U-tilt was over he could grab me. That was a mistake because I was able to U-tilt again faster than he could grab me, so now aggrivated and thinking his timing is off the DeDeDe plans to try and grab me one more time and boom eats a bulletseed for 50%. If I side stepped in that scenario there is more potential the DeDeDe would have backed up or stopped approaching as opposed to me using the U-tilt and making the player think I made a mistake and think they can punish a mistake.

Overall not the craziest find just a flashy secure way to block some nasty CG's from DeDeDe and falco both characters who give PT in my opinion a bit of trouble

 

[typh]

wtf who doesn't like controlling ivysaur !!! ivysaur is my favorite !!!

i love all my pokemon equally like a TRUE pokemon trainer

;___________;

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Just 2 quick questions, how often do you guys use Ivysaurs Dtilt? And in what way is his Dtilt superior over his Ftilt or Jab?

 

[Bestiarius]

I don't use it often enough, but it's a good move. I can occaisionally use it to edgeguard by crouching near the edge and popping people away. The ways it's better is it has way better knockback. Use it as a "get-away-from-me" move, or, at really high percentages, as a kill move.

 

[typh]

dtilt is ****, hit their shield with an upsmash and they'll run at you to try to punish, pop out a dtilt before they reach you :333

dtilt is amazing

 

[Miles.]

dtilt is amazing

this summarizes mine and AD's last convo.

he mentioned that he hardly uses ftilt anymore, dtilts soo good.

 

[typh]

ftilt does insaaane amount of damage though, i use that over bullet seed now if i know they know how to SDI out of it lol

 

[Miles.]

not saying its not good for punishing Ftilt is beefy damage, but in the spacing game id say dtilt wins.

so fast and good range, easy to follow up too!

btw typh i had the most **** Ivy combo today Upsmash to UP B Kill on Snake at like 90 or some **** for the kill.
i have it on vid ill up load maybe later.

 

[typh]

aw yeaaaaaaaah upsmash pro

upsmash is the best move in the game, literally

i hit someone with an instant tether -> cancel -> uair the other day LOL FUKKIN *****