Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[The Derrit]

Bullet seed to fsmash works some times... but it can b predictable, so mix it up

I would say use this rarely at best. If someone airdodges out of bullet seed without jumping then, well, they're not bright and then it might work, but othrewise its a great way to get effed up. I find the best time to use this is when someone puts themselves over the edge by airdodging out, then it can set up a good edgeguard. But people rarely do this because its not bright.

 

[Adriel]

I follow up with a d-tilt after using Bullet Seed to protect myself from getting hit during the ending lag.

 

[Gindler]

Anyone ever break Falco's chaingrab with bulletseed? at about 25-30 if you hit B alot you'll break out and deal like 50 to him (with good DI i think). Probably been mentioned before but I thought it was pretty nifty

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yeah it works pretty well as a combo/chaingrab breaker.. but i think that if your oponent has the perfect timing you wont be able to get out with it... but anyway its worth to give it a shot

 

[zeta]

ftilt beats meta's side b the little drill move he does which is the bane of my existance.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

looks im not the only one who has more problems with drill rush than with whorenado.... lol

 

[CoonTail]

Wow so ivy's f-tilt really beats out meta's side b is this a fact?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

ZOMG ivy counters metaknight!!!!
/sarcasm
lol... irl hates reading that... ... idk, why dont you try it?? anyway, not a lot of MK mains use drill rush

 

[PltnmNgl]

MK's use B moves other than shuttle loop and infinite cape?

 

[Kith]

Has anyone else ever tried this? I do it all the time and it generally...always works lol. Let's say you're on the ledge with Ivysaur, and your opponent is on the stage, just waiting for you to get up. What I do usually (A couple of times per match, not too much cause then it becomes predictable) is fast-fall, jump up and towards the stage, and while in the air (momentum moving towards the stage) bullet seed. Your bullet seed's initial pop-up hitbox is extended because you're in the air, so it scoops up at a good range. If your enemy doesn't see it coming, they get 30-40%. If they see it coming and shield, they'll avoid the pop-up, but you land right on them and eventually give them 15-20%. The only safe thing to do is roll away, but that's usually not their first instinct. But don't abuse it, cause they'll catch on and do it.

 

[Steeler]

good mks are only going to EVER use drill rush to recover if shuttle loop won't save them for some reason. on stage, tornado is a far superior move, especially against ivysaur.

 

[CoonTail]

Ok well I didnt mean to bug I just have a very rough time against mk and like steeler said thats what my problem is mk's coming back on the stage with the drill. So if the f-tilt counters the drill I could have a nice new answer to that mk bs

 

[Steeler]

lol mk is always going to try to sweetspot the ledge with drill rush. ftilt won't help you out much. zard's flamethrower clashes with the drill at first, and then hits through it, fyi.

 

[PltnmNgl]

Does anybody use the Dair while on the stage? I'm thinking I'll try it today.

 

[Itburns]

Interesting find with nair.

it will always hit past jigglypuffs normal shield.
if jigglypuff does a normal shield and you autocancel a nair it will always decrease her shield enough that the last couple of hits will connect.

didnt get to test out its deal on powershielding.

but I was thinking how would an autocancelled nair into a instant DJ bulletseed do aagaisnt a shield.

can someone plz test this out for me.

 

[Kris121]

did you guys know that ivysaurs forward smash could be angled

 

[PkTrainerCris]

i had no idea... do you have any videos??

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

I had no idea either, until I tried it out last night.
It may just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but it seems Ivy's F-smash has slightly more range when angled down.

 

[Bestiarius]

I know that I will probably get flamed for this, but that's ok.

I have never had any problems approaching with Ivysaur. In fact, I wasn't told originally that she is supposed to be defensive, so I played her, and still play her, very aggressively. Plus, and here's the weird part, that doesn't seem to cause me any problems. I can roll to approach with her, or dash into d-tilt, then go straight into Bullet Seed. Or, I can Razor Leaf spam until I get an opening to approach. I just play an aggressive Ivysaur, and that's not a problem for me. If I can get my opponent airborn, I try to get under them, right where Ivysaur truly shines. Plus, this gives me an opportunity for an u-air, which comes out faster than most opponents expect. Even the computer, which reads button inputs, can't dodge it! Does anybody else play Ivy like this?

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

I know that I will probably get flamed for this, but that's ok.

I have never had any problems approaching with Ivysaur. In fact, I wasn't told originally that she is supposed to be defensive, so I played her, and still play her, very aggressively. Plus, and here's the weird part, that doesn't seem to cause me any problems. I can roll to approach with her, or dash into d-tilt, then go straight into Bullet Seed. Or, I can Razor Leaf spam until I get an opening to approach. I just play an aggressive Ivysaur, and that's not a problem for me. If I can get my opponent airborn, I try to get under them, right where Ivysaur truly shines. Plus, this gives me an opportunity for an u-air, which comes out faster than most opponents expect. Even the computer, which reads button inputs, can't dodge it! Does anybody else play Ivy like this?

I can hardly even play Ivysaur defensively, let alone aggressively...
But hey, if that's what works for you, then by all means continue it.

 

[Bestiarius]

I have one thing that bugs me like nobody's business, though. My friend is a Kirby main, and no matter what I try, he almost always gets the better of me. He times his spotdodges perfectly, and then he spams smash attacks. All of Kirby's smash attacks have hitboxes that cancel out nearly anything Ivy does, and they have very little lag. Plus, Ivy's spotdodges, and I may be wrong on this and just a hair off on timing, don't last long enough and still get hit by smashes. Also, b-air doesn't really help me space because of the length of Kirby's smashes. Help!

 

[Bestiarius]

By the way, Rev, If you have problems playing with Ivysaur, try staying on a level with your opponent and using Razor Leaf and her Jab "combo." Btw, the first rule of playing against PT is: "NEVER get above Ivysaur." Therefore, if someone tries to approach you by jumping over you, Bullet Seed is the BEST punishing move in the game. Ivysaur is a BEAST!

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

...I already knew all that, but thanks anyways.

My problem is playing Ivysaur defensively. I keep trying to play him like I would Squitle, and it doesn't work. DX
I need to learn how to B-Air properly, seeing as I basically spam it until they're offstage. lol

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I SUCK at Back Air spacing. I'm like not even close most fo the time. Either way too close or way too far away. I've nailed the move at the tip of the hitbox like once, ever.

 

[Bestiarius]

Sorry I couldn't be more help, but, well, yeah, it's pretty much impossible to play Ivy like Squirtle . This might help, though. Ivysaur can cover pretty much every angle of entry an opponent might try to use from the front. Note: this list does not include aerials, because height is much more variable with them.

Low: d-tilt, jab combo, or d-smash
Mid-low: jab combo, Razor Leaf, f-smash, or f-tilt
Middle: u-smash (if you are good at timing it, which is very tricky) or Vine Whip
Mid-high: u-smash
High: u-tilt, BULLET SEED!!!!!!!

 

[Onxy]

Fair is great to hit people from below.

 

[Adriel]

D-smash may have a use; a fast-falled single-hit back-air to down-smash works well to keep your opponent away from you and will hit if they roll in front of you. This could help to prevent getting grabbed. Single-hit back-air to reverse f-tilt or bullet seed are also easy to land because they are so fast to come out.

I noticed that using f-tilt right next to your opponent sometimes causes them to end up right in back of you. You can follow up afterwards with up-tilt, n-air, or even bullet seed!

 

[Miles.]

D-smash may have a use; a fast-falled single-hit back-air to down-smash works well to keep your opponent away from you and will hit if they roll in front of you. This could help to prevent getting grabbed. Single-hit back-air to reverse f-tilt or bullet seed are also easy to land because they are so fast to come out.

I noticed that using f-tilt right next to your opponent sometimes causes them to end up right in back of you. You can follow up afterwards with up-tilt, n-air, or even bullet seed!

I find the timing to make single hit Bair to Ftilt very tight.

 

[Onxy]

Someone please tell me how this would work, stop ignoring me, lol.

If you are being zoned, or whatever, how effective would it be to use Razor Leaf backwards to use Bair to get them off of you?

Also, how effective would it be to use Razorleaf backwards to gain additional DI while recovering, also to turn backwards to Bair them off of the ledge? Trying to hit them with a Razor Leaf seems very ineffective whe you are somewhat near the stage while recovering.

 

[Caasi11]

If you are being zoned, or whatever, how effective would it be to use Razor Leaf backwards to use Bair to get them off of you?

Not very effective (Pokemon joke) to say the least. Razor Leaf is too slow by itself, and you leave yourself wide open to an attack if you use it in the opposite direction of your opponent. In the situation that you're talking about, an A-neutral should work.

Also, how effective would it be to use Razorleaf backwards to gain additional DI while recovering, also to turn backwards to Bair them off of the ledge? Trying to hit them with a Razor Leaf seems very ineffective while you are somewhat near the stage while recovering.

Again, this is not very effective. You're still falling while you use that Razor Leaf as well as receiving lag in between them. Plus, the additional DI you get is not in the direction of the stage but AWAY from the stage when you do this, so you'll have to be facing the stage to get any DI, which is not efficient anyway.

Hitting them with a Razor Leaf IS effective! Since you are not that far from the stage, you can Razor Leaf the edgehogging opponent. If that misses, use an aerial attack in conjunction with a double jump to get them off the ledge. The reason why using Razor Leaf is effective is because it doesn't need a double jump to hit your opponent; if you rely on double jumped aerials, and if you miss, you're done for.

 

[Onxy]

...

This board is void of anything interesting....

 

[CoonTail]

Ok so after serious amounts of time testing out razor leaf and studying it I have found the actual patterns of the leaves and have found certain ways to control the actual leaves. To start I must first explain the first thing I found while studying razor leaf.......razor leaf will on the regular throw "stray leaves" or leaves that drift away from the opponent. These leaves I am sure many of us have seen and if you were researching razor leaf this concept would have infuriated you due to that fact that it makes findings mean nothing all the time and overall can create counter arguments to all the work I have done. "Stray leaves" can happen up to 1 out of every 2 leaves you throw. Overall the average stray occurs once every 3 leaves, 3 out of ten leaves in most cases were stray leaves.

Now that stray leaves have been explained now its down to all the info about the path the leaves take. To start the leaves can travel two ways, first the leaf has a spin to it which will determine lifespan and the more circular and faster that leaf spins will cause the leaf not only to cover more distance but it will take longer due to the more distance covered. Second the leaf can angle upwards and downwards and due to this angle the overall lifespan of a leaf can be questioned. If it gets an upward angle the leaf will most likely miss the opponent and drift off, where as when you get a leaf to travel at a downwards angle it is almost promised that you will get perfect spin and speed on it. Overall the best outcome I have seen from this is having the leaf spin in full circles at a downward angle with full speed, these I will define as perfect leaves. This bears the best results will almost always hit the opponent and will always make it through shields.

Next if you are grounded throwing razor leaves you cut you possibilities of stray leaves quite and bit. Throwing razor leaves while on the ground for me seemed to have 8 to 9 out of 10 leaves travel in a straight path with the leaf spinning in perfect circles. If you throw the leaves in the air this is where research became tricker. So to start being in the air causes a higher chance of stray leaves, while in the air there were times where I threw up to 6 out of 10 stray leaves, obviously not good. It is not only being in the air that raises chances of stray leaves but it is actually being in the air without drifting that raises the chances of stray leaves. Crazy Im sure it seems but when drifting back or forward with the leaves you will have way higher chances of throwing perfect leaves as earlier stated. The big find I had to truely throw perfect leaves is to time your landing so that all 4 of ivy's paws hit the ground right as you throw the leaf, the timing is a bit of a pain but once I had it down I threw 10 perfect leaves in a row on at least 5 different occasions. The leaf has to start to travel right as ivy's paws are on the floor and the perfect leaves just start to happen.

I tested out holding directions and c stick directions but no 100% way to throw or control the leaves came from it. In short it seems that you can throw perfect leaves or stray leaves and there are difference is the only one I found which was having all four of ivy's paws hit the floor as you throw it. If anyone else has found ways to control the leaves I hope I am not being redundant, but I have put alot of effort into finding this all out and the timing is not easy at all but once you get it I promise at least 9 out of 10 perfect leaves on average.

 

[choknater]

wow very nice info, thank you

 

[Ishiey]

What Choknater said. I remember someone testing this a long time ago and they just said there was no way to control it... nice findings with the 'perfect leaf' timing though, sounds pretty useful.

Did you do any research on specific differences between the slow (tilt) and fast (smash) leaves?

 

[CoonTail]

I have always been unsure of what the exact difference between tilt and smash leaves were.... is it just the speed, because I have alot of findings on razor leaf at this point but I am a little confused as to exactly what the difference between the smash and tilt leaves are?

Once I know what the difference is Im sure I could explain the findings on those types of leaves.

 

[zeta]

so everyone knows about razor leaf and fair to knock people from the edge if they try to hog bout how many people nair to remove pesky hogs? i like it more and more everytime i do it.

 

[Steeler]

i use nair if i'm close enough because it's ivy's fastest aerial and can spike them to their dooms.

 

[Onxy]

I used to Razor Leaf them off, but it's just ineffective. Use Razor Leaf to turn around and Bair them off. Give it a try. Using the Razor Leaf backwards also increased your DI. But I obviously do try to Razor Leaf them off when I'm a little far.

 

[zeta]

I used to Razor Leaf them off, but it's just ineffective. Use Razor Leaf to turn around and Bair them off. Give it a try. Using the Razor Leaf backwards also increased your DI. But I obviously do try to Razor Leaf them off when I'm a little far.

thats pretty good imma try that out

 

[choknater]

wow nice imma try it too

thanks onxy

though you'd have to DI well after reversing urself cuz holding away from the ledge at that one moment could make it more difficult to recover as well

still, a very good option