Meta It's Time To Abandon 3 Starter Lists

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Stages are guilty until proven innocent in the Smash community. That's how we play this game,

Yeah, this is a pointless waste of time. If you think this is a legitimate way of looking at stages, then there's no bloody point. Especially when you go on to make statements like this:

I honestly think it is a waste of time to discuss FLSS because it will never happen outside of EVO and tournaments trying to use the EVO ruleset.

And this is just completely wrong. My region uses FLSS. I'm fairly sure you can find others that do as well. We use it because the starter/counterpick distinction makes no sense. As hard as you and L_P have tried to justify it, there is simply no valid reason why it's not okay to play game one of a set on a stage, but totally okay to win game 5 of grand finals there.

And don't try to take EVO using it as a point in favor because, well, it's not.

Yes, the largest Smash 4 tournament in history using FLSS is totally not a point in its favor. I have no idea how I missed that.

 

[Luigi player]

@ Illuminose Disregarding the majority of your post because I do not really feel like engaging in another arduous debate, it is not so much about top players being lazy as it is them being objectively wrong a lot of the time. I do not care how good you are; if you make a statement much like Zer0 did where you state that Smashville has a lower ceiling height as Final Destination, your credibility on that particular topic comes in to question. Saying something wrong is not going to suddenly take away your tournament winnings, but having those wins under your belt does not make you an authority figure, just a good player. Top players are valuable resources of information, but they need to be subject to scrutiny like everyone else. The word "jank" is just propaganda terminology much in the same way "quack" is. When someone wants to degrade or negatively associate something without having to objectively construct criticism against it, this is often the go-to tactic people used. The use of this tactic should be highly scrutinized because it forgoes logic in favour of catering to peoples personal feelings on a topic or problem, and anyone familiar with history, criminology, politics, et cetera will know how dangerous this is.

Can you explain why Fox KOs Mario on Smashville with an uncharged usmash at 103 % and on Omegas/a few other stages at 104 %? While you might get the same results for SV/Omegas with other moves likes Marios ftilt or something, it's a little weird and there might be a few more instances like that that made him think SV has a lower ceiling.

On that subject, he still got the Duck Hunt thing wrong (although he did say he wasn't completely sure and that it just "feels" smaller).
From the edges to the sideblastzones it's about the same as Omegas/FD, the overall stagesize is bigger though, so from the center it'll take longer to KO someone than it would be on an Omega. And to the top you also live longer than on Omegas.

I really don't get why people have the feeling you will die earlier on Duck Hunt. Every commentator always says it, and then they're always like "oh and now he dies (since it has a smaller blastzone)" ... but then they survive with their "ultimate godly DI" or whatever. People need to seriously learn this stuff, lol.

 

[Raijinken]

Doing something because it is the way it has always been done is not a good enough reason to continue to do something. It should be judged on its merit, not its length of establishment. ~40% of regular tournament goers want to switch to FLSS. Keep in mind, that's FULL FLSS, not even increasing the number of starters.

I'm not sure that challenging the status quo is ever not a valid prerogative. Shouldn't we encourage our methods to be questioned?

Quoting for truth. This sort of thinking is why I, as a supply chain analyst, have a job.

 

[Nintendrone]

@ Illuminose I'm sorry that our attitudes were not completely in check. I try to keep my cool when arguing, but I guess I lost it a bit when accusing top players. I used the term "lazy" in order to get my point across (I was probably a bit frustrated that people didn't get the point before); what I meant was "the starter-CP system encourages lazier play because you only have to practice the 3 starters, since they're so influential on the outcome".

 

[Octavium]

I support this guy 100% sierously, the rulesshould be like this:

first round:
port 1 choose character
port 2 choose character
Banning Stages from 5 starte list (port 1 ban first)
port 1 choose customs
port 2 choose customs

second round and from now on:
winner bans 2 stages
loser choose stage
winner choose character
loser choose character
winner picks customs
loser picks customs

5 starters is the only way to make this fair, unless you want to keep playing smash ville your whole life.

I honestly think a system like this would make for a much more enjoyable tournament experience. If I'm not wrong, the tilting of lylat cruise isn't random and is consistent, this supports taking advantage of it when zoning.

And now with the ledge fixes, its much less dangerous to attempt to sweetspot the ledge. Overall this sounds like a solid starter.... unless some characters suffer horribly playing on that stage, but I can't really think of anyone other than possibly projectile spammers.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Illuminose I'm sorry that our attitudes were not completely in check. I try to keep my cool when arguing, but I guess I lost it a bit when accusing top players. I used the term "lazy" in order to get my point across (I was probably a bit frustrated that people didn't get the point before); what I meant was "the starter-CP system encourages lazier play because you only have to practice the 3 starters, since they're so influential on the outcome".

@Amazing Ampharos explained the issue with starter/counterpick (aside from the illogic of a stage not being acceptable for round 1) pretty well a while back in another thread on the subject.

Even if your character doesn't love the starters, they're still the most important to practice. If you can win game 1, then no matter the result of game 2, you're almost guaranteed (unless you're against an apparently uncommon type of player who hates all the starters and will ban all of them) to be able to go back to your preferred stage for game 3. It depends on the ban count, but in many implementations of the system, you can basically botch game 2 as hard as you want and then take it back to your favorite afterwards (aside from Dave's Stupid Rule and whatnot).

I honestly think a system like this would make for a much more enjoyable tournament experience. If I'm not wrong, the tilting of lylat cruise isn't random and is consistent, this supports taking advantage of it when zoning.

And now with the ledge fixes, its much less dangerous to attempt to sweetspot the ledge. Overall this sounds like a solid starter.... unless some characters suffer horribly playing on that stage, but I can't really think of anyone other than possibly projectile spammers.

Lylat isn't really as terrible for zoners as people seem to think. The tilt is actually so extreme at points that larger projectiles (Samus and Lucario spring to mind, and I did this as Samus yesterday) can hit the side platforms from the ground. Much depends on the character and their projectiles (default fireballs will be weirder than fast fireball, and PacMan's fruit gets pretty crazy), but while it changes projectile play, I don't believe it impacts it negatively over-all.

 

[evmaxy54]

I think my last post left some things unclear, so I'll just make it very clear what my ideal legal stage list is:

Starter: Battlefield/Smashville/FD

CP: Town & City/Lylat/Duck Hunt/Omegas

Gurl

I don't know if you're from there, but if you aren't, I think you would like the UK/Ireland scene.

=3

 

[Corthos Fellrin]

I might be saying the same thing as maybe some others in this thread, but why do we have to argue this hard over using these stages. The way I see it we should use the custom stage feature and make some stage forms. We can have what is legal now (FD, Omegas, Smashville, Town and City, DP, Lylat Cruise, Halbird) and we can have the custom stuff with the layouts of PS2, Wario Ware, and maybe some others. I believe we can share stages and such. Why don't we try that? I know there is a thread with custom stages.

 

[Nintendrone]

This isn't the custom stages thread, this is the thread about expanding the starter list or jumping to FLSS. Custom stages are not as simple to share as we thought, and agreeing on the exact ones will lead to nearly endless arguing: arguing that can be mostly avoided if we just expanded the stagelist normally. The thing is that there are a number of stages that are banned for silly reasons that shouldn't be, as they are fine even with their hazards and other features (that includes PS2, so no reason to have a static version).

 

[Corthos Fellrin]

I know this isn't the customs thread I was just saying it is somewhere, but whatever. If we aren't going to bother with them. FD, Omegas, Smashville, Town and City, DP, Lylat Cruise, Halbird, Castle Siege. I think we should get rid of the starter I personally hate stages with too many hazards. If we use only use FD/BF/SV/T&C/LC then I don't see why not honestly with no banning.

 

[Nintendrone]

While I agree with the removal of the starter/CP distinction, your argument boils down to "I don't like hazards, so let's ban everything with hazards." This is arbitrarily trying to ban something that you don't like, which unfortunately is actually being used right now in order to limit the stagelist. The thing is that arbitrarily banning things is bad: for a diverse and healthy meta, we should use as many good things as possible and only ban things that are proven to highly detract from competition (something that's "broken" and heavily empowers degenerate play). Smash 4 has the highest number of good stages out of any Smash game, and many are getting ignored simply because TOs (looking at you, Apex) and some vocal players don't like them.

 

[Corthos Fellrin]

Bruh, everyone has different ideas for both sides. Some hazards, to me, ruins fights. I don't mind some transforming stages. I don't think "arbitrarily banning" is what I am doing. If we are agreeing on the same thing, lets just leave it at that. Don't like the idea of disagreeing with someone that agrees with you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bruh, everyone has different ideas for both sides. Some hazards, to me, ruins fights.

Why?

 

[Corthos Fellrin]

Why?

Why? Uh, what do you mean why? Why does everyone have different ideas on both sides of the argument (the argument of getting rid of the ban stages or naw)? Or why do I think some hazards ruin fights? If it is that then, I don't like the idea of being thrown into something like the lazer cannon on halbird. Even when stages transform and ceiling gets lowered can be called a hazard. Just saying "why" isn't much to go on, but hope one of those answered your question.

 

[Nintendrone]

The problem with your argument is that it is literally "I don't like it, so let's ban it" while ignoring the reasoning and opinions of the people that do like those stages. BPC asked you "why" because you didn't give any reason as to why Halberd's laser or any hazard "ruins fights". BPC and I are of the opinion that specific hazards are good for fights, and we have given reasons throughout the thread. Now it's your turn to give valid reasons as to how hazards "ruin fights".

 

[Illuminose]

Just wanted to share some examples of stage-related issues in Halberd and Delfino being shown in tournament...showing how hazards/low blastzones can be detrimental toward gameplay.

DVDA #10

~3:55:00: Here we see the hazards of Halberd and their extremely negative effect on gameplay. You can say ZeRo should have just been good and avoided that laser, but the bottom line is that it absolutely destroys the gameplay up until it comes out. Both players are essentially dancing around the laser and attempting to avoid it while trying to see if they can get the other player into it. This isn't really competitive because it leads to one of two scenarios. The first scenario is that the laser comes out and the player can't get out of pressure in time to avoid the laser, which is exactly what happened here. As a result of a standard Luigi combo beginning just before the laser came out, ConCon is given an excessive reward for a standard Luigi combo, bringing ZeRo up to a point where he's just about at kill percent. This isn't even a thing that only happens occassionally either; the laser regularly creates situations like this, and it's not really as simple as 'get good' and 'learn the stage'.

~4:02:00: And here we see what Delfino looks like when players want to win. Transformations like Shine Gate in particular and even the beach in this case become campfests. The temporary walkoff allows for a cheesy early kill. While yes, ConCon forcing ZeRo into that corner is good play on his part, the idea is that this option made getting a kill so easy. The match finishes in other display of the issues with Delfino, with Sheik getting an insanely simple down throw -> up air kill off the absurdly low ceiling on the transformation. Everyone loves to say 'don't get grabbed', but that's not always a practical reality...if 'don't get grabbed' was always a practical reality, Ness's back throw wouldn't be such a problem and Luigi's grab kill confirms wouldn't be such a problem. The difference here is that it's the stage turning these normal grabs in the neutral into insanely powerful kill options. Sure you can wait, but you have to get onto the platforms or you just die, the opponent can easily just wait to grab or whatever they have to do to get the grab. Even ignoring that, the fact that the reward and power of the particular move is so drastically increased whenever the stage transforms is detrimental.

~4:28:00: More Delfino temporary walk-off cheese. Here's the bottom line that I want to get across: just because the walk-offs are temporary doesn't mean they aren't problematic! Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME, especially with Sheik. It's different than Smashville because Smashville requires specific platform positioning and generally significantly more fairs that are easily DI'able in order to get a cheesy fair string kill like the two in this Delfino game.

 

[MajorMajora]

Just wanted to share some examples of stage-related issues in Halberd and Delfino being shown in tournament...showing how hazards/low blastzones can be detrimental toward gameplay.

DVDA #10

~3:55:00: Here we see the hazards of Halberd and their extremely negative effect on gameplay. You can say ZeRo should have just been good and avoided that laser, but the bottom line is that it absolutely destroys the gameplay up until it comes out. Both players are essentially dancing around the laser and attempting to avoid it while trying to see if they can get the other player into it. This isn't really competitive because it leads to one of two scenarios. The first scenario is that the laser comes out and the player can't get out of pressure in time to avoid the laser, which is exactly what happened here. As a result of a standard Luigi combo beginning just before the laser came out, ConCon is given an excessive reward for a standard Luigi combo, bringing ZeRo up to a point where he's just about at kill percent. This isn't even a thing that only happens occassionally either; the laser regularly creates situations like this, and it's not really as simple as 'get good' and 'learn the stage'.

~4:02:00: And here we see what Delfino looks like when players want to win. Transformations like Shine Gate in particular and even the beach in this case become campfests. The temporary walkoff allows for a cheesy early kill. While yes, ConCon forcing ZeRo into that corner is good play on his part, the idea is that this option made getting a kill so easy. The match finishes in other display of the issues with Delfino, with Sheik getting an insanely simple down throw -> up air kill off the absurdly low ceiling on the transformation. Everyone loves to say 'don't get grabbed', but that's not always a practical reality...if 'don't get grabbed' was always a practical reality, Ness's back throw wouldn't be such a problem and Luigi's grab kill confirms wouldn't be such a problem. The difference here is that it's the stage turning these normal grabs in the neutral into insanely powerful kill options. Sure you can wait, but you have to get onto the platforms or you just die, the opponent can easily just wait to grab or whatever they have to do to get the grab. Even ignoring that, the fact that the reward and power of the particular move is so drastically increased whenever the stage transforms is detrimental.

~4:28:00: More Delfino temporary walk-off cheese. Here's the bottom line that I want to get across: just because the walk-offs are temporary doesn't mean they aren't problematic! Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME, especially with Sheik. It's different than Smashville because Smashville requires specific platform positioning and generally significantly more fairs that are easily DI'able in order to get a cheesy fair string kill like the two in this Delfino game.

I won't talk about the Delfino ones right now because I'm planning on making a whole thread about walk-off cheese, but the first part is something I would like to touch on. Because, yes, I can just say that, because it's true. ZeRo got caught because of his own mistake. It is competitive because both players had something they wanted to accomplish and they both had a chance to react to it and play around each other. It's competitive. The rest of your rant is just you stating what happened and saying it was bad without giving any reason it was bad and ignoring the fact that ZeRo made a stupid mistake when he knew (or should've known" would result in % rack up and bad positioning. It seems like he needs to 'get good' and 'learn the stage', because otherwise that wouldn't have happened.

 

[Illuminose]

I won't talk about the Delfino ones right now because I'm planning on making a whole thread about walk-off cheese, but the first part is something I would like to touch on. Because, yes, I can just say that, because it's true. ZeRo got caught because of his own mistake. It is competitive because both players had something they wanted to accomplish and they both had a chance to react to it and play around each other. It's competitive. The rest of your rant is just you stating what happened and saying it was bad without giving any reason it was bad and ignoring the fact that ZeRo made a stupid mistake when he knew (or should've known" would result in % rack up and bad positioning. It seems like he needs to 'get good' and 'learn the stage', because otherwise that wouldn't have happened.

I actually did give a reason that it was bad: ZeRo got into one of Luigi's combos just before the laser became a threat. The laser made the reward of that combo disproportionate to the ease of achieving the combo and already exceptional damage of the combo. This excessive reward favors the situational appearance of the stage hazard in the midst of a combo as opposed to ConCon's actual skill in executing the combo and potentially continuing it. It's sort of ZeRo's fault but not entirely his by a longshot, and that's the point I was attempting to portray. The laser had too much of an impact on the gameplay. We ban stages for having hazards that are too impactful on gameplay. That's why it's a concern.

 

[MajorMajora]

I actually did give a reason that it was bad: ZeRo got into one of Luigi's combos just before the laser became a threat. The laser made the reward of that combo disproportionate to the ease of achieving the combo and already exceptional damage of the combo. This excessive reward favors the situational appearance of the stage hazard in the midst of a combo as opposed to ConCon's actual skill in executing the combo and potentially continuing it. It's sort of ZeRo's fault but not entirely his by a longshot, and that's the point I was attempting to portray. The laser had too much of an impact on the gameplay. We ban stages for having hazards that are too impactful on gameplay. That's why it's a concern.

Dude, the laser's reticle appeared way before the combo started. And I hesitate to call that a combo in the first place, it was like a 2 hit string that caused maybe a second's worth of hitstun. ZeRo got overaggressive when he knew it was about to fire. He got punished and faced the consequences. He played bad. He knew what was about to happen and made a poor decision anyways. I have no sympathy for him.

 

[Illuminose]

Dude, the laser's reticle appeared way before the combo started. And I hesitate to call that a combo in the first place, it was like a 2 hit string that caused maybe a second's worth of hitstun. ZeRo got overaggressive when he knew it was about to fire. He got punished and faced the consequences. He played bad. He knew what was about to happen and made a poor decision anyways. I have no sympathy for him.

I suppose I did sort of exaggerate about when the laser's reticle came into play, but I also don't really see how much of a choice ZeRo had. Before the laser's reticle came out, ZeRo was already being backed into a corner. If ZeRo had taken the defensive option and stayed away ConCon could have chased and set up the laser in an even worse position, potentially causing the laser to edgeguard ZeRo. The most viable option in that scenario was by far attempting to break out of the pressured scenario. On any other stage, he could potentially have achieved this, and certainly would at least not have been at 70% after taking the insane damage from the laser. The impact of the laser on the gameplay was too high, and that's the point I'm trying to get across, which is also something you didn't address. Stop nitpicking at my posts and address all of the points I make if you actually are trying to make a point.

 

[MajorMajora]

I suppose I did sort of exaggerate about when the laser's reticle came into play, but I also don't really see how much of a choice ZeRo had. Before the laser's reticle came out, ZeRo was already being backed into a corner. If ZeRo had taken the defensive option and stayed away ConCon could have chased and set up the laser in an even worse position, potentially causing the laser to edgeguard ZeRo. The most viable option in that scenario was by far attempting to break out of the pressured scenario. On any other stage, he could potentially have achieved this, and certainly would at least not have been at 70% after taking the insane damage from the laser. The impact of the laser on the gameplay was too high, and that's the point I'm trying to get across, which is also something you didn't address. Stop nitpicking at my posts and address all of the points I make if you actually are trying to make a point.

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that there was not better option he had. And even then, when he went to break the pressure, he failed to do so. I suppose that he was put into an unnecessarily risky 50/50, but ConCon was put int he same one. If ZeRo won the exchange? It could've happened in reverse, and that's a situation ConCOn initiated, and his gamble payed off. And once again, I find it hard to believe that there was no other way out. ConCon wouldn't have had time to put it into a perfect edge guard position that didn't also limit himself, and I'm pretty sure it's on an exact timer. Not to mention the laser limits ConCon's options as well, and ZeRo could've timed an aerial escape if he was more familiar with the situation, I believe.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why? Uh, what do you mean why?

You say that the hazards ruin fights. What is your justification for saying that? What do you mean by "ruined"? Does it have anything to do with competition? Or is it just personal preference? Because personal preference is not a good gauge of what is or is not competitively valuable.

Just wanted to share some examples of stage-related issues in Halberd and Delfino being shown in tournament...showing how hazards/low blastzones can be detrimental toward gameplay.

DVDA #10

~3:55:00: Here we see the hazards of Halberd and their extremely negative effect on gameplay. You can say ZeRo should have just been good and avoided that laser, but the bottom line is that it absolutely destroys the gameplay up until it comes out. Both players are essentially dancing around the laser and attempting to avoid it while trying to see if they can get the other player into it. This isn't really competitive because it leads to one of two scenarios. The first scenario is that the laser comes out and the player can't get out of pressure in time to avoid the laser, which is exactly what happened here. As a result of a standard Luigi combo beginning just before the laser came out, ConCon is given an excessive reward for a standard Luigi combo, bringing ZeRo up to a point where he's just about at kill percent. This isn't even a thing that only happens occassionally either; the laser regularly creates situations like this, and it's not really as simple as 'get good' and 'learn the stage'.

http://www.twitch.tv/newmetastream/b/664698550?t=3h55m21s

Yes, actually, it is. Both players were in neutral when the laser was announced. The amount of time before it fires is known. What could ZeRo have done? Well, he could have camped. Luigi does not have good approaches, least of all against Shiek. In fact, what got him hit was overextending on a combo that was not true. Concon DI'd correctly. Then, Concon made the smart decision to keep the combo right there, and kept Zero basically in place for a full second. Then he got hit by the laser, did not SDI well, and ate most of it. How is this a problem? Both players were basically warned for ages in advance, "Hey, this is going to happen, be careful". One player got outplayed and thrown into the laser. This is not a problem. This sort of high-risk high-reward is what makes Halberd good - or did you miss the segment directly beforehand where ZeRo killed off the top at 100 with Shiek's uair in a combo which simply would not kill on any other stage?

~4:02:00: And here we see what Delfino looks like when players want to win. Transformations like Shine Gate in particular and even the beach in this case become campfests.

Wow, really? The beach? This I gotta see.

*Watches video*

...You do realize that the only difference between that beach and FD is that the tiny curve meant that Shiek couldn't force an approach in that situation, right? That's it. There's no huge disadvantage to approaching below you, because "below you" barely registers; the slant is minuscule.

The temporary walkoff allows for a cheesy early kill. While yes, ConCon forcing ZeRo into that corner is good play on his part, the idea is that this option made getting a kill so easy.

Have you ever played or watched Street Fighter? This is a game where movement is almost infinitely limited - you can walk forward, or you can jump, and when you jump, you have no defensive options and very few characters have anything resembling movement options in the air. A few have some escapes; the point being that when your opponent corners you, you not only have very limited control over the spacing (which is so much more crucial there), you're often stuck, waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. And in the corner, getting knocked down can mean taking 40-50% damage on mixups. It's a big deal. By comparison, in this case, ZeRo willingly took the corner (instead of trying to get back to center stage like he could and probably should have), then went on offense with a really lousy read and got beat. Then ZeRo DI'd poorly (you can DI down and tech against the wall there) and died... At 110. Against Luigi. As a lightweight. And keep in mind, what he was going for probably would have led to a kill for him - Concon's position was really risky! He went in, got a good read, and reaped the reward. How, exactly, is this a problem?

The match finishes in other display of the issues with Delfino, with Sheik getting an insanely simple down throw -> up air kill off the absurdly low ceiling on the transformation. Everyone loves to say 'don't get grabbed', but that's not always a practical reality...if 'don't get grabbed' was always a practical reality, Ness's back throw wouldn't be such a problem and Luigi's grab kill confirms wouldn't be such a problem. The difference here is that it's the stage turning these normal grabs in the neutral into insanely powerful kill options. Sure you can wait, but you have to get onto the platforms or you just die, the opponent can easily just wait to grab or whatever they have to do to get the grab. Even ignoring that, the fact that the reward and power of the particular move is so drastically increased whenever the stage transforms is detrimental.

Yes, don't get grabbed at this specific time mentioned well in advance. If Concon had gotten the grab there, ZeRo would have died. It was a high-risk, high-reward situation. This is not a problem. You keep on trying to point to this as a problem, but I don't understand. What, exactly, is wrong here? What's uncompetitive about this? What is making the game less competitive here?

~4:28:00: More Delfino temporary walk-off cheese. Here's the bottom line that I want to get across: just because the walk-offs are temporary doesn't mean they aren't problematic! Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME, especially with Sheik. It's different than Smashville because Smashville requires specific platform positioning and generally significantly more fairs that are easily DI'able in order to get a cheesy fair string kill like the two in this Delfino game.

Stuff like this happens all the time. May I recommend:
A) DI better
B) Stop counterpicking Shieks to Delfino
C) Stop getting hit close to the blastzone

Any one of these might help.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's kind of hard to get into this conversation 8 pages later but has anyone brought up the point that norfair was originally banned because of circle camping and not because of hazards. But this is a different game with slightly different physics so I wonder if circle camping in norfair is as strong. I sure would love to see that stage come back as a counter pick. Counter picks should be different from starters, testing other aspects of the game.

 

[Corthos Fellrin]

The problem with your argument is that it is literally "I don't like it, so let's ban it" while ignoring the reasoning and opinions of the people that do like those stages. BPC asked you "why" because you didn't give any reason as to why Halberd's laser or any hazard "ruins fights". BPC and I are of the opinion that specific hazards are good for fights, and we have given reasons throughout the thread. Now it's your turn to give valid reasons as to how hazards "ruin fights".

Just wanted to share some examples of stage-related issues in Halberd and Delfino being shown in tournament...showing how hazards/low blastzones can be detrimental toward gameplay.

DVDA #10

~3:55:00: Here we see the hazards of Halberd and their extremely negative effect on gameplay. You can say ZeRo should have just been good and avoided that laser, but the bottom line is that it absolutely destroys the gameplay up until it comes out. Both players are essentially dancing around the laser and attempting to avoid it while trying to see if they can get the other player into it. This isn't really competitive because it leads to one of two scenarios. The first scenario is that the laser comes out and the player can't get out of pressure in time to avoid the laser, which is exactly what happened here. As a result of a standard Luigi combo beginning just before the laser came out, ConCon is given an excessive reward for a standard Luigi combo, bringing ZeRo up to a point where he's just about at kill percent. This isn't even a thing that only happens occassionally either; the laser regularly creates situations like this, and it's not really as simple as 'get good' and 'learn the stage'.

~4:02:00: And here we see what Delfino looks like when players want to win. Transformations like Shine Gate in particular and even the beach in this case become campfests. The temporary walkoff allows for a cheesy early kill. While yes, ConCon forcing ZeRo into that corner is good play on his part, the idea is that this option made getting a kill so easy. The match finishes in other display of the issues with Delfino, with Sheik getting an insanely simple down throw -> up air kill off the absurdly low ceiling on the transformation. Everyone loves to say 'don't get grabbed', but that's not always a practical reality...if 'don't get grabbed' was always a practical reality, Ness's back throw wouldn't be such a problem and Luigi's grab kill confirms wouldn't be such a problem. The difference here is that it's the stage turning these normal grabs in the neutral into insanely powerful kill options. Sure you can wait, but you have to get onto the platforms or you just die, the opponent can easily just wait to grab or whatever they have to do to get the grab. Even ignoring that, the fact that the reward and power of the particular move is so drastically increased whenever the stage transforms is detrimental.

~4:28:00: More Delfino temporary walk-off cheese. Here's the bottom line that I want to get across: just because the walk-offs are temporary doesn't mean they aren't problematic! Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME, especially with Sheik. It's different than Smashville because Smashville requires specific platform positioning and generally significantly more fairs that are easily DI'able in order to get a cheesy fair string kill like the two in this Delfino game.

Why?

I'd like to thank Illuminose for that post, but yea watching players getting cheesed isn't fun. I wouldn't have posted in this exact way, but this is better than what I would say it. Personally I'd never counter pick to those stages and if I had to I would simply gentlemen to smashville for all matches. Even smashville you have a chance to get cheesed, but from the matches that I have seen smashville platform did not see that as a problem compared to Halbird/DP transforming.

Side Note: Don't just say "why". State what I'm missing or anyone for that matter.

 

[Thor]

I read all these posts with @ Budget Player Cadet_ talking about how amazing Smashville is for Pikachu.

Then I go to ESAM's stage guide (http://smashboards.com/threads/stag...-stage-analysis-by-esam.399745/#post-19256480) and read it's arguably Pikachu's worst starter.

I don't even what

Pikachu confirmed broken

 

[PUK]

He wrote: worst starter, 8/10
I tell you, that's a very good argument against 3 starter.

@ Corthos Fellrin i don't know who you play, against who and What's your purpose when you go to tournament?
Because SV is the most abusable starter hands in the pockets. And i'm crying when i see someone gentleman SV and being circle camped, which is so easy on SV, or Fair to the death, which is so hype, or platform camped, which is the apex of fairness.
If you never encountered these strategies you're lucky or you never encountered a competitive asshole (it's luckiness too).

 

[MajorMajora]

He wrote: worst starter, 8/10
I tell you, that's a very good argument against 3 starter.

@ Corthos Fellrin i don't know who you play, against who and What's your purpose when you go to tournament?
Because SV is the most abusable starter hands in the pockets. And i'm crying when i see someone gentleman SV and being circle camped, which is so easy on SV, or Fair to the death, which is so hype, or platform camped, which is the apex of fairness.
If you never encountered these strategies you're lucky or you never encountered a competitive ******* (it's luckiness too).

I agree, and I really want to appreciate this accidental pun.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'd like to thank Illuminose for that post, but yea watching players getting cheesed isn't fun.

But what does that have to do with competition? This is why I ask "why". As in, "Why does this matter and why should we care about it?" I am sick to death of Smashville. The music there makes me want to smash my speakers. Does this give me a good reason to ban Smashville in tournaments I host? No, of course not. "I don't find something fun" is the worst possible reason to ban something.

I wouldn't have posted in this exact way, but this is better than what I would say it. Personally I'd never counter pick to those stages and if I had to I would simply gentlemen to smashville for all matches. Even smashville you have a chance to get cheesed, but from the matches that I have seen smashville platform did not see that as a problem compared to Halbird/DP transforming.

There's this double standard going on here. Someone approaches stupidly on the walkoff on Delfino, or doesn't get out of the way when it transforms and gets killed, that's "stage jank, ban plz". Someone approaches stupidly on the platform on Smashville, or gets comboed off the platform to the blastzone, and it's "Eh, whatever". It's a total double standard. Smashville jank is just as bad as Delfino jank. I died to a jab at under 20% on the Smashville platform today. Did I get outplayed? Oh, yeah. Would anyone else complain? I doubt it. Would anyone else complain if the same kind of crap happened on Delfino? Just take one little look upthread.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But what does that have to do with competition? This is why I ask "why". As in, "Why does this matter and why should we care about it?" I am sick to death of Smashville. The music there makes me want to smash my speakers. Does this give me a good reason to ban Smashville in tournaments I host? No, of course not. "I don't find something fun" is the worst possible reason to ban something.



There's this double standard going on here. Someone approaches stupidly on the walkoff on Delfino, or doesn't get out of the way when it transforms and gets killed, that's "stage jank, ban plz". Someone approaches stupidly on the platform on Smashville, or gets comboed off the platform to the blastzone, and it's "Eh, whatever". It's a total double standard. Smashville jank is just as bad as Delfino jank. I died to a jab at under 20% on the Smashville platform today. Did I get outplayed? Oh, yeah. Would anyone else complain? I doubt it. Would anyone else complain if the same kind of crap happened on Delfino? Just take one little look upthread.

...who can kill at 20% from a jab on the platform?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...who can kill at 20% from a jab on the platform?

Falcon's rapid jab has insane base knockback. It wasn't even 20%. I think when I died I was at like 13? It was about 3 seconds into the match.

 

[TheAnomaly]

Say what you want about BPC but he makes a valid point. There is an absolutely ridiculous double standard against certain topics in smash (customs and stages). People will willingly ignore evidence presented to them because they favour a particular side of the argument and humans in general hate saying these words "I was wrong".

I was a firm believer in the fact that customs would be banned at the start of the game and that the "starter" stages would remain so because they were the most fair. I took a step back and analysed the evidence presented to me and changed my opinion.Why is this so hard to do for some people? At the very least, take a step back, think about the subject rationally and then come to a decision instead of "I like it this way I will argue for it to remain this way despite having no solid evidence one way or another."

TLDR: Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't fair or good for the game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Say what you want about BPC

Please don't I have an amazingly fragile ego

 

[Malex]

studies show that people will actually be more inclined to dig in their heels and stick to their beliefs when presented with evidence that contradicts them

 

[MajorMajora]

studies show that people will actually be more inclined to dig in their heels and stick to their beliefs when presented with evidence that contradicts them

I'm not sure who that was pointed at, but "You are statistically more likely to be arguing your point in spite of evidence" is a pretty flimsy argument in and of itself.

 

[Malex]

I'm not sure who that was pointed at, but "You are statistically more likely to be arguing your point in spite of evidence" is a pretty flimsy argument in and of itself.

I was commenting on this.

Say what you want about BPC but he makes a valid point. There is an absolutely ridiculous double standard against certain topics in smash (customs and stages). People will willingly ignore evidence presented to them because they favour a particular side of the argument and humans in general hate saying these words "I was wrong".

I was a firm believer in the fact that customs would be banned at the start of the game and that the "starter" stages would remain so because they were the most fair. I took a step back and analysed the evidence presented to me and changed my opinion.Why is this so hard to do for some people? At the very least, take a step back, think about the subject rationally and then come to a decision instead of "I like it this way I will argue for it to remain this way despite having no solid evidence one way or another."

TLDR: Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't fair or good for the game.

The study was involving political issues, but I think it applies here, as we are debating a change in policy. I wasn't really making an argument for or against.

 

[MajorMajora]

I was commenting on this.






The study was involving political issues, but I think it applies here, as we are debating a change in policy. I wasn't really making an argument for or against.

Ah, I gotcha. Sorry.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just wanted to share some examples of stage-related issues in Halberd and Delfino being shown in tournament...showing how hazards/low blastzones can be detrimental toward gameplay.

DVDA #10

~3:55:00: Here we see the hazards of Halberd and their extremely negative effect on gameplay. You can say ZeRo should have just been good and avoided that laser, but the bottom line is that it absolutely destroys the gameplay up until it comes out. Both players are essentially dancing around the laser and attempting to avoid it while trying to see if they can get the other player into it. This isn't really competitive because it leads to one of two scenarios. The first scenario is that the laser comes out and the player can't get out of pressure in time to avoid the laser, which is exactly what happened here. As a result of a standard Luigi combo beginning just before the laser came out, ConCon is given an excessive reward for a standard Luigi combo, bringing ZeRo up to a point where he's just about at kill percent. This isn't even a thing that only happens occassionally either; the laser regularly creates situations like this, and it's not really as simple as 'get good' and 'learn the stage'.

~4:02:00: And here we see what Delfino looks like when players want to win. Transformations like Shine Gate in particular and even the beach in this case become campfests. The temporary walkoff allows for a cheesy early kill. While yes, ConCon forcing ZeRo into that corner is good play on his part, the idea is that this option made getting a kill so easy. The match finishes in other display of the issues with Delfino, with Sheik getting an insanely simple down throw -> up air kill off the absurdly low ceiling on the transformation. Everyone loves to say 'don't get grabbed', but that's not always a practical reality...if 'don't get grabbed' was always a practical reality, Ness's back throw wouldn't be such a problem and Luigi's grab kill confirms wouldn't be such a problem. The difference here is that it's the stage turning these normal grabs in the neutral into insanely powerful kill options. Sure you can wait, but you have to get onto the platforms or you just die, the opponent can easily just wait to grab or whatever they have to do to get the grab. Even ignoring that, the fact that the reward and power of the particular move is so drastically increased whenever the stage transforms is detrimental.

~4:28:00: More Delfino temporary walk-off cheese. Here's the bottom line that I want to get across: just because the walk-offs are temporary doesn't mean they aren't problematic! Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME, especially with Sheik. It's different than Smashville because Smashville requires specific platform positioning and generally significantly more fairs that are easily DI'able in order to get a cheesy fair string kill like the two in this Delfino game.

So, just to be clear, this is a knock against Smashville, right? Because I have a couple more like this one.

 

[evmaxy54]

So, just to be clear, this is a knock against Smashville, right? Because I have a couple more like this one.

Still better than the BS stages y'all want to legalise

 

[MajorMajora]

Still better than the BS stages y'all want to legalise

A circumstantial event on a stage with moving elements combined with one player getting severely outplayed by another player leads to an early kill. That's like, 70% of the complaints with stages we are trying to legalize.

 

[Infinite901]

Still better than the BS stages y'all want to legalise

So in other words, none of the stages are good and we should stop playing competitively?