Items: Why I believe some should be allowed in tournaments

[The Adder]

Alright, I hear the chants "Why do you care?! We'll play our way you play yours! Etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseum!" coming already. I care because I'm intrested in starting to enter tournaments. It's a new game, a fresh start for all of us, so I feel I have a better chance at starting without being curbstomped, well, without being curbstomped in 30 seconds. And, it is the very fact that this is a new game, that I feel items, some items, should be given a chance.

Now, some items are blatantly broken, and I can understand deciding that those ones just don't fly right off the bat. But there are some that I feel really should be considered. I have compiled a list of the items in Brawl and why I feel they should be turned on or off. I would really like to get a discussion going on this and not just a bunch of "NO U"s.

Criteria:
The criteria I used when compiling the list of items for consideration were as follows:

Off Criteria:
When the items appear, do they centralize the battle on them selves by causing the competitors to rush for it instead of Fighting?

Does the item gimp the opponent instead of buffing the user?

Does the item change the Battlefield?

Does the item have a random unexpected effect?

Will the item more often be used for it's primary function, or as a throwing object (if it wasn't one already).

Can the item OHKO?

Does it make you invulnerable?

If the answer to any of these questions was yes, they were put on the NO list.

Mitigating Circumstances:
Does the item have a non-random drawback?

Can the item be used right off the bat, or must it be used strategically?

Depending on the item, mitigating circumstances may have allowed an item on the off list to be put back

Setup
I will write the items name, and a bit on why I have placed it on the list I have. Anything not explained on "On", "Maybe", or "Off" is an "Off". It just means I felt they needed no explaination.

On List:

Food - They heal, but not enough to cause competitors to stop fighting just to get it. Nor enough to totally change who has the upper hand.

Metal Box - It increases launch resistance, but it also has the drawback of lessening your recovery. So much so, ibn fact, that MK and Pit can't gain height from jumping while metal. Competitors would have to think twice about whether or not they were willing to make the sacrifice for the reward. It certainly wouldn't be an item that would interupt the flow of battle.

Bunny Hood - See metal box. Replace launch resistance with speed and recovery with control.

Smoke Ball - It's a throwing item with only a little knockback, does little damage. It also has the use of obscuring vision, but nothing really game breaking (Like the nintendog).

Mr. Saturn - Very little damage, very little knockback. No reason not too.

Banana Peel - See Mr. Saturn plus the added effect of punishing opponent for not paying attention to surroundings.

Bumper, Spring, and Unira - They all pretty much do the same thing, stand still and effect those who come in contact with it.

Team Healer - Yes, it heals a considerable amount, but this is a strategic item if I ever saw one. It would not be something either side in a doubles match would rush for, unless they were abosolutely sure they could hit their partner and not their opponent.

Screw Attack - It can no longer be thrown, so now it just changes your jump into an attack. This is good in that it racks up damage and protects you from being attacked to an extent, but, if your character has a reliance on a SH'd aerial, you lose that option.

Maybe List:
Warp Stars - Powerful, but it must be aimed, has a limited range and can be avoided fairly easily if the opponent is paying attention.

Fireflower - Might be thrown, but is probably more effective when used.

Freezie - Not too much damage, but freezes opponent, if done when the opponent is falling it may spell their doom.

Soccer Ball - Pretty powerful, but it must be aimed correctly.

Off List
Carriers - Contrary to popular belief, they still explode. Plus this prevents party balls from dropping piles of food.

Beam Sword, Homerun Bat, Lip's Stick, Fan, Star Rod - They would all just be used as powerful throwing items instead of decent bludgeoning/slashing weapons.

Pitfall - Easy set up for a full (or almost full) charged Smash attack.

 

[Yuna]

Random crap.

Items are random. They spawn at random times and in random places (even though there are designated Spawn Points, but you can only stand at one point at a time). At any time, a random item might spawn right next to your opponent and give them an unfair advantage since you have no way of stopping him from getting it.

So what if we only use items that aren't that much of a big deal? If in a single game, 5 items spawn right next to a certain player, the tide might be changed... all because of randomness. And there's nothing the opponent can do to stop this from happening besides always somehow keeping the opponent busy (impossible).

You also have to remove all projectile weapons that do not launch the opponents upwards and that don't have very little knockback. Say Ike just knocked someone off the stage. Ike does not have projectiles, his character is not built for that. His metagame consists of slow but powerful attacks. But wow, look, a random projectile just spawned next to him. He can now use it to edgeguard (and for those not aware of this: You can pick it up, chuck it and then jump out and do a Fair. Even if the opponent dodges or catches the item, the Fair might hit them... unfair advantage!).

In Competitive Fighting, we like to limit the influence of luck as much as we can. Therefore, we must ban items. Characters whose moves are random must be banned if said randomness if imbalanced/broken (but we don't have any of those in Smash). We want the most skilled player to always win. We do not wish to see a Final set be decided through sheer dumb luck!

Items also now have the added feature of forcing you to pick them up. If you Dashattack or Aerial them, you are forced to pick them up. What if you're comboing someone when, suddenly, a random ****ty item spawns and forces you to grab it, ruining your combo and allowing your opponent to hit you back (the game has less hitstun)?! You can't prevent it from randomly happening because you're not psychic.

Solve the Random issue, then talk!

Food - They heal, but not enough to cause competitors to stop fighting just to get it. Nor enough to totally change who has the upper hand.

10 food items = 30-50% of damage. That's a lot. Say 10 food items spawn in a single match. And right next to a certain player while the others' far away. Even if it's not all during the same stock, every single % matters. That 3% might be the 3% that makes the difference between a KO and being able to recover. Or it might be the difference between getting comboed into a KO move and being able to esacpe it. And the longer you live, the more chances you have of inflicting damage on your opponent.

Metal Box - It increases launch resistance, but it also has the drawback of lessening your recovery. So much so, ibn fact, that MK and Pit can't gain height from jumping while metal. Competitors would have to think twice about whether or not they were willing to make the sacrifice for the reward. It certainly wouldn't be an item that would interupt the flow of battle.

King DeDeDe with a Metal Box. Case closed. As you said, the metal box is also imbalanced because of certain characters' recoveries. Pit and Meta-Knight will not gain as much as DeDeDe and Bowser.

Bunny Hood - See metal box. Replace launch resistance with speed and recovery with control.

Good players can control their characters even with the bunny hood. It's not a very good, item, no.

Smoke Ball - It's a throwing item with only a little knockback, does little damage. It also has the use of obscuring vision, but nothing really game breaking (Like the nintendog).

Fine, we have 2 items that are usable.

Mr. Saturn - Very little damage, very little knockback. No reason not too.

Breaks the shield in one hit. It's an unblockable projectile. I have a Mr. Saturn, I throw it at you, I jump after it with a Neutral Air. You have the following options:
* Rolling = Chance of me roll-chasing you
* Blocking = Shieldbreak
* Taking the hit = Getting comboed off of Mr. Saturn
* Dodging = Dodging Mr. Saturn but then getting hit by my Nair

And that's just one of the many tactics you can use with Mr. Saturn.

Banana Peel - See Mr. Saturn plus the added effect of punishing opponent for not paying attention to surroundings.

Or you chuck it on the ground and then combo them into it.

Bumper, Spring, and Unira - They all pretty much do the same thing, stand still and effect those who come in contact with it.

Throw a bumper right at the edge and people will be unable to recover unless they recover over it. I do not believe the bumper moves once you bump into it. It'll disappear after X number of bumps, though. If it's right at the ledge, if you sweetspot and try to get up, you'll get hit off again. If you roll up, you might get hit (I'm not sure) and if you aren't, I'll be standing behind it charging a forward-/down-/upsmash. Uniras can be utilized in the same way (guaranteed damage). Springs cannot, but springs are also projectiles (must be banned).

Team Healer - Yes, it heals a considerable amount, but this is a strategic item if I ever saw one. It would not be something either side in a doubles match would rush for, unless they were abosolutely sure they could hit their partner and not their opponent.

It heals way too much. Just because it's hard to use doesn't mean it cannot be banned. Wobbling isn't that easy to do, yet people wised up and banned it eventually. Because they are both overpowered.

Screw Attack - It can no longer be thrown, so now it just changes your jump into an attack. This is good in that it racks up damage and protects you from being attacked to an extent, but, if your character has a reliance on a SH'd aerial, you lose that option.

Screw attacks are OK, I guess.

Warp Stars - Powerful, but it must be aimed, has a limited range and can be avoided fairly easily if the opponent is paying attention.

Warp Star edgeguard.

Fireflower - Might be thrown, but is probably more effective when used.

Edgeguard fireflower. Also a projectile (must be banned).

Freezie - Not too much damage, but freezes opponent, if done when the opponent is falling it may spell their doom.

Exactly. Banned.

Soccer Ball - Pretty powerful, but it must be aimed correctly.

They also have the random ability to fly backwards and hit you or hit both people standing in front of them and behind them. Also clearly overpowered. I think I've seen it KO at, like, 60%.

So, even if you can solve the Randomness-problem, we're left with only the following items:
Bunny Hood, Smoke Ball, Screw Attack

 

[The Adder]

Bunny Hood, Smoke Ball, Screw Attack

That's still three more items than you were thinking about prior to this.

Now, I'm off to solve the randomness issue!

Also, did I ever mention that any time I see your avatar I see a landmaster instead of an inbverted Peach for a while?

 

[Yuna]

That's still three more items than you were thinking about prior to this.

Which three? I believe I replied to all of the things you listed as items you think should be on.

Now, I'm off to solve the randomness issue!

Cannot be solved. Hence, items will never be turned on.

Also, did I ever mention that any time I see your avatar I see a landmaster instead of an inbverted Peach for a while?

It's like the Magic Eye!

 

[Deleted member]

also like yuna said you are forced to pick these items up even when you attack.ive had it happen where i would be doing a string of moves with say mt and an item would fall on me i would grag it and keep going.

one time we forgot to turn off items and a laser blaster dropped when i was meta and i picked it up while f-airing my foe.i dropped it on my foe,n-aired to pick it up scoring 36 damage in that one motion 0.0

 

[verditude]

IMO, some items are fun. A match with Smoke Balls on, for instance, is more fun for me than a no-item match. So, if there is any way that we could turn on Smoke Balls in competitive matches, I'd be all for it.

So, Yuna, does the smoke ball give any discernable advantage if it spawns next to you? If not, I dont see why it shouldn't be on.

 

[Yuna]

IMO, some items are fun. A match with Smoke Balls on, for instance, is more fun for me than a no-item match. So, if there is any way that we could turn on Smoke Balls in competitive matches, I'd be all for it.

"More Fun =/= Competitive

Competitive Gaming does not allow things if they're "more fun" if the loss is Competitive viability. I'm sure there are lots of things we should turn on to make the game "more fun" depending on who you ask. Doesn't mean we will.

Some people want all stages on, for example. We don't want that, because some stages are just broken. Competitive Gaming is about measuring skill. We still have fun in doing it but we can forego a little bit of fun if it'll potentially ruin the skill-measuring aspect of tournaments.

 

[Umby]

Which three? I believe I replied to all of the things you listed as items you think should be on.

He was stating that the three items you basically said were OK for competitive smash was better than initially stating none.

 

[verditude]

"More Fun =/= Competitive

Competitive Gaming does not allow things if they're "more fun" if the loss is Competitive viability. I'm sure there are lots of things we should turn on to make the game "more fun" depending on who you ask. Doesn't mean we will.

Some people want all stages on, for example. We don't want that, because some stages are just broken. Competitive Gaming is about measuring skill. We still have fun in doing it but we can forego a little bit of fun if it'll potentially ruin the skill-measuring aspect of tournaments.

Of course, I'm no nub. I'm just saying if the smoke ball can be on without a discernable reduction of competitivity, why not put it on?

 

[Yuna]

He was stating that the three items you basically said were OK for competitive smash was better than initially stating none.

So we'll have three items which are kinda OK but are still random. So bother if we'll only get to play with three items and they really can't be used to tip the scales of balance? It's just introducing new obstacles into the game since you might randomly pick up a Bunny Hood without wanting to while comboing someone, totally ruining your combo. Or you might pick it up just in time to use your new Buffed 1st Jump to combo someone because you wouldn't have been able to without the Bunny Hood.

So I guess the Bunny Hood is a No-Go as well.

Two items. Yaaaay.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course, I'm no nub. I'm just saying if the smoke ball can be on without a discernable reduction of competitivity, why not put it on?

what about if your fighting a projectile char. against a non-projectile char. though >_>

 

[Yuna]

Of course, I'm no nub. I'm just saying if the smoke ball can be on without a discernable reduction of competitivity, why not put it on?

You're fighting Ike. He forces you to recover from below the stage somehow. Smoke Ball spawns, he throws it downwards at the ledge at you.

Or he just chucks it at you while you're recovering and then jumps out into a Fair. Either you eat the item, both in a combo (if he does it fast enough) dodge one but get hit by the other, grab the item and get hit by him or you somehow manage to hit both the item and him. Either way, the advantage he got from the item is far better than without it.

Hence, the Smoke Ball is a no go as well.

Which items remains now, again?

 

[Deleted member]

also if a player gets any tossable item in thier possesion they are also given the option to glide toss =0

 

[The Adder]

So basically, Yuna, your issue is not with the randomness, your issue is that it changes the charcaters moveset at all.

 

[Yuna]

So basically, Yuna, your issue is not with the randomness, your issue is that it changes the charcaters moveset at all.

It's not that it changes, it how it changes. The game becomes unbalanced.

Marth was not meant to have projectiles.

Also, my issue is still with the randomness of it all, I'm just pointing out additional reasons to ban certain items.

 

[The Adder]

It's not that it changes, it how it changes. The game becomes unbalanced.

Marth was not meant to have projectiles.

You can not tell me that they don't factor items in at least a little when balancing the game (well, we can't say for sure one way or the other with Brawl, but past experience...). You can't tell me this because it's a fact M2 was better with using items than anyone else and functioned better when using items than he did without them.

You can, however tell me that it was a stupid idea to factor items into balancing, because how the **** is M2 going to beat most other characters to said items. You could then parlay this into saying they didn't factor in items in Brawl because they realized this. And then I'd repeat the thing in parenthesis above.

Basically we'd have a circle.

Question, what time is it where you are?

 

[Yuna]

You can not tell me that they don't factor items in at least a little when balancing the game (well, we can't say for sure one way or the other with Brawl, but past experience...). You can't tell me this because it's a fact M2 was better with using items than anyone else and functioned better when using items than he did without them.

You can, however tell me that it was a stupid idea to factor items into balancing, because how the **** is M2 going to beat most other characters to said items. You could then parlay this into saying they didn't factor in items in Brawl because they realized this. And then I'd repeat the thing in parenthesis above.

Basically we'd have a circle.

Question, what time is it where you are?

Why are you arguing something that is irrelevant and which I never brought up? But since you brought it up:

Who cares what Sakurai and his minions intended to do? We are now stuck with an end product. And whether Sakurai likes it not, what he intended for the game does not hold true in all cases. He could've had the best intentions, but some things will turn out crap, anyway.

And items in tournament play is crap. Not that Sakurai seems to care much. He just wants Casual players to have fun. He didn't want to balance items out in tournament play. Because he just didn't care. And even if he tried to do it, he didn't manage to.

The fact remains, we do not need to give characters that do not have projectiles projectiles. So the Smoke Ball goes as well. So then we're left with one item.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Can you still throw the screw attack? Also, does the screw attack still work like Samus's up B (including giving you invincibility frames on start up?

 

[The Adder]

Why are you arguing something that is irrelevant and which I never brought up? But since you brought it up:

You, you are the one who brought up what Marth was "MEANT" to have. Meant means intended, and since we had nothing to do with making the game, the only thing I could assume you meant by saying Marth was never "MEANT" to have a projectile is that the creators of the game never "MEANT" for him to have one. At which point I pointed out the flaw in that line of thinking. Sorry if that wasn't what you meant, but that was really the only way to interpret it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yuna you forgot to tell him the time you have.

Indeed I would like to know as well so I can add you ^_^

 

[Yuna]

Can you still throw the screw attack? Also, does the screw attack still work like Samus's up B (including giving you invincibility frames on start up?

No, you cannot. And yes, you are indeed invincible, I believe. It's even better than Samus' screw attack out of shield since it cannot fail (you can't mistime the Up B since you all you have to do is jump). Shield something, anything and screw attack. Even better in Brawl because there's less blockstun. I didn't think of that. Thanks for pointing it out.

You, you are the one who brought up what Marth was "MEANT" to have. Meant means intended, and since we had nothing to do with making the game, the only thing I could assume you meant by saying Marth was never "MEANT" to have a projectile is that the creators of the game never "MEANT" for him to have one. At which point I pointed out the flaw in that line of thinking. Sorry if that wasn't what you meant, but that was really the only way to interpret it.

Do you really think they wanted to create a perfectly balanced fighting game? Then how come we have DeDeDe's 0-300%/death chaingrab? How come Marth and Toon Link are obvious Top Tier material?

How come so many items are so unbalanced even you don't dare to suggest using them in tournaments?! You really think they designed items according to balance of all things when faster characters are usually already among the best, yet they're also the best att getting items?!

Why do you think Sakurai is some kind of god who knows everything and does everything well? This is the man who thought that Melee Sheik should not only be as good as NTSC-Sheik with chaingrabs, downthrow combos and a way-too-good Upair. In the Beta, her Upair was even better and her needles exploded. The man is far from perfect. He makes mistakes. Even if he tried to balance items out, they aren't balanced.

And I personally don't think they factored in character balance when they made items. And the thing is that items clearly imbalance the roster. Certain characters were not meant to have projectiles (as in their game does not revolve around projectiles, some of them are already too good, given them projectiles and they'll be godly).

Yes, I personally believe Sakurai designed certain characters to not have projectiles. Explain why they don't all have them? They were not meant to have them. Their metagames do not have them.

Then again, that is all irrelevant. If items weren't random and balanced, we wouldn't have an issue with them. What's meant and what isn't meant by the game designers is irrelevant. My original "meant" however was "By the Competitive Community", since it's we that form the Competitive Community's rules.

What Sakurai wants and doesn't want is irrelevant.

And it all boils down to how you're unable to counter my arguments of imbalance and randomness. Why go on a rampage about "what is meant by Sakurai"? There are mor pressing issues at hand.

Namely, overpoweredness, imbalance and randomness. Solve all three. Then we'll talk.

Yuna you forgot to tell him the time you have.

Indeed I would like to know as well so I can add you ^_^

The what now?

 

[Deleted member]

adder i understand you want items but you cannot argue that there is a possibility to use items in a competitive scene just because you want to.

whether or not it seems or is meant this wouldnt do that it still in fact, does as it has been pointed out in several key examples for you to see =0

 

[Dogysamich]

hmm, so somebody new doesnt understand why items werent allowed in melee, lol.

Cause the same still applies in brawl.

Especially with all this slow, super long smash windups (ike, dedede).

 

[Akuryou]

Items are random. Therefore if they are to not be imbalanced, the only way to have them enabled is to only enable the ones that have very little impact on gameplay. So if only the items that have very little impact are enabled, then it would be better to avoid them entirely.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Yuna]

Items are random. Therefore if they are to not be imbalanced, the only way to have them enabled is to only enable the ones that have very little impact on gameplay. So if only the items that have very little impact are enabled, then it would be better to avoid them entirely.

Prove me wrong.

"But it's so much more fun!"

 

[sxiz]

Wow you guys would throw a fit trying to play competitive Pokemon battling. I don't see what's wrong with a little randomness. Something is banned because if someone is edgeguarding you and it spawns right next to them you might die? What? I don't think there are really any item respawn areas right next to any edges. Maybe one or two. And smoke ball, seriously, does not have that much of an effect. You get knocked a half inch back and get out of any fallspecial you were in. The item user would have a fraction of a second to figure out if throwing the item would just help you get your ^B back, then find correct angle to throw the item, then hope their range is good enough to avoid your special as you recover. Ike can do this, Marth can do this, Meta Knight can do this. But really, what are the chances?

 

[Yuna]

Wow you guys would throw a fit trying to play competitive Pokemon battling.

Smash is not Pokémon the Trading Card game. People also stack their cards to lessen randomness as much as the ycan.

I don't see what's wrong with a little randomness. Something is banned because if someone is edgeguarding you and it spawns right next to them you might die? What? I don't think there are really any item respawn areas right next to any edges. Maybe one or two.

Ever heard of picking an item up and then walking/running to the edge? Very helpless.

You don't see what's wrong with randomness dedicing the outcome of a very important final, but Competitive Community does.

And smoke ball, seriously, does not have that much of an effect. You get knocked a half inch back and get out of any fallspecial you were in.

Someone's recovering from below, you throw it down at them and then immediately edgehog. They get it by it and might not make it back. Or they're forced to Up B past it/into it and get edgehogged/aerialed by you. It's a projectile. All projectiles imbalance the game.

The item user would have a fraction of a second to figure out if throwing the item would just help you get your ^B back, then find correct angle to throw the item, then hope their range is good enough to avoid your special as you recover. Ike can do this, Marth can do this, Meta Knight can do this. But really, what are the chances?

Good players can do all of these things. The people in the hypotethtical Smash matches I speak of are always high level players, not Random Persons #256 and #5553.

 

[Umby]

Smash is not Pokémon the Trading Card game. People also stack their cards to lessen randomness as much as the ycan.

He's talking about actual link up battles and/or Netbattle, which I'd advise you not to bash, unless you refer to the 4th gen of Pokemon.

 

[Prince of Pain]

And smoke ball, seriously, does not have that much of an effect. You get knocked a half inch back and get out of any fallspecial you were in.

That "half an inch" is all that's needed to send a Pit during his Up B to his death. And if it were thrown by someone like Ike, then he just gained a stock out of an item that hardly changes gameplay at all.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think there are really any item respawn areas right next to any edges. Maybe one or two. And smoke ball, seriously, does not have that much of an effect.

im starting to think you guys dont even read the reasons a.k.a facts that we have been posting since all you guys keep saying is "i cant be that bad" all based on an assumption and not actual experience or examples instead of replying with at least a "well this does this because of this" type of thing either >_>.

 

[Invalid]

If the smoke ball really doesn't do that much so why even have it allowed? "All items are banned except...the smoke ball. Enjoy it as you may." I agree that all items should be banned and stay banned. You guys can't argue that certain items were meant to be in the game because their usage may vary from character to character.

Competitive gaming is and should be about balance. As far as I see it no items is as equal of a playing field as it's going to be. You're not the creators of the game so stop trying to argue this 'but maybe the game was made for these certain items'. No, we don't know that and until we do all items should be off.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Items are fun. They don't belong in a tournament match unless you play a character that can make items as part of their moveset. I have no problem with some randomness, which is why some moving stages are allowable as counterpicks. It's when the randomness will give too much of an edge to one player. Having items such as Pokeballs and Final Smash balls are obviously broken, but even something like the Mr. Saturn or Flipper can mean a stock for one player, for reasons already stated in this thread. Items generally will make good characters even better. Faster characters can get to the items faster. Characters with good projectile games will have an even better projectile game with items.

If you want to run a tournament with items and all the stages, go ahead. That doesn't mean that we will.

 

[Yuna]

He's talking about actual link up battles and/or Netbattle, which I'd advise you not to bash, unless you refer to the 4th gen of Pokemon.

No he's not. How are those link up battles random? Both players pick a number of Pokémon and then the game is on. You just don't know what characters they'll play or exactly what moves they'll have. But it's far from random.

He's talking about trading card games. And I bashed them when, exactly, anyway?

 

[Yuna]

Items are fun. They don't belong in a tournament match unless you play a character that can make items as part of their moveset. I have no problem with some randomness, which is why some moving stages are allowable as counterpicks.

Moving stage =/= Random, though.

Rainbow Cruise and Pokéfloats, for instance, follow set patterns that do not change in the slightest. As long as you know the stage, there'll be no surprises.

 

[Deleted member]

He's talking about trading card games. And I bashed them when, exactly, anyway?

i think he was warning you because he thinks were just saying this stuff for fun or something lol >_>

 

[Pizzaguylol]

I'm not even majorly competitive (ie, if my friends and I play "seriously" we'll still play a lot of banned stages and won't edgehog that much) but I still think items being off kind of goes without saying.

 

[Infamaz]

I don't play competitively, but I still prefer items off. I hate how someone who's worse than myself can beat me by camping with items. And I agree with Yuna about randomness, I've experienced ruined combos with items and I've had combos started on me with items and its a pain in the ***.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

No he's not. How are those link up battles random? Both players pick a number of Pokémon and then the game is on. You just don't know what characters they'll play or exactly what moves they'll have. But it's far from random.

lol, accuracy

lol, critical hits.

lol, added effects with 10% chance to land

 

[Yuna]

lol, accuracy

lol, critical hits.

lol, added effects with 10% chance to land

I believe you have stats to boost that. But it's been a while since I played Pokémon so all of those might just be completely random.

 

[thesage]

Screw attack can combo into rest = banned.

Why would anyone want to use smoke ball, it's completely useless. I would really like one situation where its helpful.

And if only bananas were left on then they'd still spawn like crazy on very low.