Items: Why I believe some should be allowed in tournaments

[k-masera]

i think i speak for anyone with a brain when i say

ewwwwwwww items >:3

 

[Enoch-Fox]

i was with you, Yuna, and still am, but the stuff in Pokemon, while not COMPLETELY random, is pretty random independent of your own choices... you can MODIFY the chances through your own actions but they're still very random (attacks relying on rolling against an accuracy stat, essentially, etc) and even then there's always the chance for a total flop regardless of what you've done.... like tripping in brawl, haha. The equivalent would be camping near item-spawns or something. Not that items are a good idea (no) but the level of randomness (with explosives/1-hit kills turned off) is somewhat similar in how likely a situation is and how you can play to avoid the potential.

 

[Umby]

I believe you have stats to boost that. But it's been a while since I played Pokémon so all of those might just be completely random.

As stated before, accuracy, critical hits, 10%+ chances of added effects, confusion, attraction, full paralysis, and not to mention damage jumps (if you did a damage calculation based on fixed stats, there would be a range of damage that could be inflicted, not just one set number). The only stats that boost/hinder any of these luck factors would be Evasion/Accuracy, in which evasion boosters are looked down upon and banned in standard tournament play, and lowering accuracy isn't as looked down upon, but is still silly.

But yeah, let's stay off of Pokemon to keep from going on a tangent.

 

[f4lc0_m0nk3y]

I dont know if this has been stated before but even with select items on the containers will still appear like the capsule and crates which somtimes just explode on impact

 

[nitnit]

This thread is pretty horrible on all counts.

First off, items create off balance because of their random spawning. Old argument is old.

@ pokemon - Being someone who heavily played D/P wifi/shoddy, you can rest assured that luck is one of the driving factors of a victory between 2 skilled players. Anyone who says that critical hits, 10% chance status effects, 15% miss rates and the such occurring is not luck (AKA Probability) is an idiot.


@ Yuna - while your points are pretty much all valid, you need to stop bolding every other word It makes you look like you're throwing a fit on a point that is very moot, and makes it difficult to read when used a lot.



/thread


new topic pl0x

 

[infernovia]

@pokemon: There is randomness involved, but its manageable. Until DP. Sandstorm and Garchomp pretty much makes any matchup against him a luckfest. What makes it even more luck oriented is that the shark will freaking kill anything in 2 moves so once your counter dies, most of your team will probably annihilated. And the metagame itself removes a lot of items that make it too luckfesty.

Items make it really easy for me to edgeguard. < my opinion on the subject.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

not even gonna read the post, just gonna say, no

 

[Deleted member]

qwertyuiop

 

[Mann]

Competition = made by communities. How many people in a community are willing to play competitively with items on?

 

[Psyflame]

@Tru: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot

 

[Yuna]

i was with you, Yuna, and still am, but the stuff in Pokemon, while not COMPLETELY random, is pretty random independent of your own choices... you can MODIFY the chances through your own actions but they're still very random (attacks relying on rolling against an accuracy stat, essentially, etc) and even then there's always the chance for a total flop regardless of what you've done.... like tripping in brawl, haha. The equivalent would be camping near item-spawns or something. Not that items are a good idea (no) but the level of randomness (with explosives/1-hit kills turned off) is somewhat similar in how likely a situation is and how you can play to avoid the potential.

I don't really care. As I said, I don't play Pokémon (especially not on a deeper level) and as usual, this is this and that is that.

Much like Chess, Pokémon is not the same as Smash.

 

[Umby]

Randomness creates balance? False. Once again, randomness creates too much of a luck factor, and on a deeper level of competition, no one wants their final round consisting of two scrubs that got lucky with items, nor do either of those two scrubs want money hanging in the balance based on a Blast Box appearing right in front of them during a smash.

 

[The Adder]

I bet you all thought I was gone. Well you were wrong, I'm like a cockroach, it takes a lot more than one assault to squash me! Now, I've been conducting research in regards to the arguments you presented, Yuna, (yes, that's what I've been doing this ENTIRE time. No, I don't have a life outside of games, they are my future profession [making them, not playing them]), and here are some counter-points:

Your argument against the Smokeball is invalid. Why? The Smoke Ball does 0 damage and causes 0 knockback if the person hit with it is in mid-air.

Your argument against Mr. Saturn is invalid. Why? Because, I don't know about Melee, but in brawl, the situation you described is impossible. There is too much lag after throwing an item. If you're close enough that the Mr. Saturn will hit, then by the time you're able to move after throwing it, it will already have hit or missed. If you try doing this while having already jumped, you will be severly punished.

This may also invalidate your argument against projectiles in general, but I haven't done enough research to say it has with 100% certainty.

Also, picking up items does not interupt your combo. Your animation continues when you pick it up. This includes standard A attack strings in their entirety. You can just drop the item afterwards with no interuption.

I've still got more research to do against your other arguments, but these are just the ones I've been testing the past few days and am absolutely sure of. I'll crack the randomness thing too, no doubt.

Question, if I mapped every spawn point on every stage, would it still be considered random?

@f4lc0_m0nk3y

No, they don't, since there is the option to turn containers off, and since that fact is the entire basis behind CD Factories.

@General Populace

I think it's pretty **** contradictory to say:

"Lol, it doesn't do anything really useful, turn it off!"

And then turn around and say

"Lol, it does something really useful, turn it off!"

 

[Yuna]

Your argument against the Smokeball is invalid. Why? The Smoke Ball does 0 damage and causes 0 knockback if the person hit with it is in mid-air.

Fine. The Smoke Ball will be allowed in tournaments, then.

Your argument against Mr. Saturn is invalid. Why? Because, I don't know about Melee, but in brawl, the situation you described is impossible. There is too much lag after throwing an item. If you're close enough that the Mr. Saturn will hit, then by the time you're able to move after throwing it, it will already have hit or missed. If you try doing this while having already jumped, you will be severly punished.

Funny, I've played with items. In fact, I've played as Peach (and pulled Mr. Saturns) and Toon Link (Bombs). No, you do not lag "too much" after throwing an item to jump, throw, aerial.

And Mr. Saturn still breaks the shield in one single hit.

This may also invalidate your argument against projectiles in general, but I haven't done enough research to say it has with 100% certainty.

Video or it didn't happen. Find me a video where you back up this claim that you lag way too much to do anything after an item throw... especially since no one's said anything like this before.

Also, picking up items does not interupt your combo. Your animation continues when you pick it up. This includes standard A attack strings in their entirety. You can just drop the item afterwards with no interuption.

Yes it does. Fair to Fair. I pick the item up while doing the 1st Fair, 2nd Fair becomes an item throw. For some, their combo will be enhanced depending on the item (but we're banning the majority of them, anyway), for others, their combos will be ruined.

I've still got more research to do against your other arguments, but these are just the ones I've been testing the past few days and am absolutely sure of. I'll crack the randomness thing too, no doubt.

There's not cracking the randomness factor.

Also, you utterly failed except for on the Smoke Ball, which I'll conceede. Fine, Smoke Balls on Very Low.

What game have you been playing anyway if you think that you lag way too much to do anything off an item throw (in the air)?

Question, if I mapped every spawn point on every stage, would it still be considered random?

Yes, because it'd randomly spawn at a randomly picked spot out of those spawn points. There will still be no way to know which item (if we have more than just the Smoke Ball) will spawn where (or even pinpoint exactly when).

 

[nitnit]

Reply to tru -

First, I'm not trolling, I was being serious. All of my points are completely valid, you managed to leave out 2/3 of my post, which were on topic and on the sub topic

Secondly, any replies worth reading will have read your entire post, so random bolding is unnecessary, unless you have a block of text and are trying to stress a certain sentence (or if you're creating a special thread and you want it to be eye pleasing)

Thirdly, Username Anonymous was unavailable. The word Moot is in the dictionary, and I was using it by its real definition, in all honesty I was not even thinking of the person you are referring to at the time of writing that post. Also, terms like "/thread" and "pl0x" aren't completely of the origin you think it is, placing the / in front of something to designate it's ending can be traced back to many coding languages. Not to mention this slang is a part of the internet lingo by now, thus making them completely valid for use in a forum. To further back this logic, your highly regarded member Yuna just said "Video or it didn't happen", that right there is a spin off of an internet meme. My point here is that using such terms, especially those that are widespread beyond the website you mentioned does not call for random judgment. In closing, rules 1 and 2.


Thank you for your time. My justification for such an off topic conversation to exist is because all this thread has managed to do is make smoke balls an item that is tournament acceptable. As stated earlier /thread.



Edited Addition: You can't crack the random factor Senor Adder. Just face it, a random spawn point means that the items will appear in random areas. Unless you mod the game so that items appear in designated areas in a set patterns, you can't "crack" the random factor.

 

[Wiseguy]

My advice to my fellow item fans: don't worry about trying to change the "official" back room certified tourney rules. Test all the items, find out which ones you think would work best in a tournament setting, and hold your own "Items-On Tournament". If there are enough people interested, it will get lots of attendance and it will be a success.

Hopefully, in the long run, all touramament organizers will get the hint and hold both item and non item tourneys so everyone can have what they want.

 

[fkacyan]

I haven't bothered to read this thread, nor will I.

Why?

The title of the thread is enough reason. This fails.

 

[-Ran]

If you want Items, then go and make your own tournaments. The Collective Hive Mind of Competitive Smashers much prefer character vs character, rather than character vs environmental objects that are dropped by some unknown god in the sky. There are other individuals that are far more casual that are going to want to play in Item tournaments, but by and large the populous of this board is going to keep Items off. You should instead place effort in finding like minded individuals and play the game as you wish, just as we have every intention of doing so. The following link should aid you:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

It all comes down to mentality. Even if the items were perfectly balanced, and predictable, there would still be a division of the community that would just want to to turn them off. The only thing that would have prevented this is if the developer of the game had removed the option to do so. Last Saturday, while at a popular gaming Cafe, there were two Wii's set up with Brawl. How the game was being played was completely different on both TVs. On the left, you had the tournament circle players in the region playing one verses one, with no items one, with only certain stages being allowed. On the right, the game was being player with items on, ranging from Smash balls to heart containers on any imaginable stage.

The players on the right would occasionally glance to watch the 1vs1s, and weren't shocked at how it was being played. They were used to the mentality of the players, because they had seen them play Melee many, many times while the casuals had played other games such as Counter Strike or WoW. Both parties never crossed over to play with one and other, because though it was the same game, and the same console, the methods that were being used to play weren't even close.

If you want items on, find like minded people. It's just that simple. The current tournament players -aren't- the people you're looking to convince.