Items vs. No Items

[Samus_2021]

Do you prefer to fight with items on or off? Do you feel that fighting with Items is "cheap" or "unfair"? Or do you feel that Items adds another layer of game play and challenge?

Reason I'm asking is because I got into a debate with a friend about this topic, and I wanted to know what others think. His reasoning was because he thinks Items require no skill to use and gives it's user an unfair advantage.

If playing Smash is so "skill based" why would it matter if there were items or not? If someone was skilled in the ways of knowing every aspect of the game like knowing each item, knowing what Items' advantages vs. their disadvantages, why would that matter?

I personally believe that Items add another challenge to game play. It keeps things different and always changing. One of Smash Bros.' shining quality is the fact that no two matches are ever the same. Items only bring out more of that element.

What do you think?

 

[Snaaaake!]

If you ask me, it's really fun either way, items or otherwise... and even more fun with only poke-balls (or in Brawl, assists trophies too). I'd say there's more skill is a itemless one and more fun it a full-item one. Also, why is this in the Brawl section?

 

[Florida]

As long as the crates and barrels don't explode randomly, I'll be playing with items more often than not.

 

[Klowne]

They aren't used in competitive play because they're too luck based, due to random spawns and exploding crates and barrels. There is no "cheap" or "unfair" point in the whole argument (at least not the one we have every other day)

 

[Xanderous]

Years late.

 

[Aeramis]

When I am really playing I enjoy playing with items off because most items are crap that is useless or just in the way. Crate, boxes, and anything else that could pop out at random that explodes cause more luck to be involved in a match which gets old after while. Healing items are luck involved as well. Also some characters that are already over powered as it is when played at higher levels of play get even more of an edge with their speed that allows them to get to a item before most other chars like Fox or Captain Falcon ect. Items are fun to play around with from time to time when you feel like it imo but still do not bring the joy you get from playing a hardcore mlg rule match against a rival where the best speed, mindgames, tech skill, and good tactics prevail. Playing to win is more fun all around imo but just do whatever you think is fun because that's one of the main reasons video games are played.

 

[Ryudragon29]

The items are there to increase your strategy. My main is roy which has no range attack so items are a good plus for me. The only thing that is annoying are dropping bombs (Also, in barrel or crate).

 

[Lumancer]

Hmm. Ya know, in Melee we've always played with items off because, like most tournament directors, we feel that many of the in game items provide an unfair advantage since they are distributed at random. If a hammer spawns right next to you on three consecutive matches, you're not a good player, you're just freakishly lucky. Yes, some items require a degree of skill to use and avoid. Others do not, and trying to decide which are which is much less convenient than turning items off altogether.

Now, that said, for the first few weeks or months I plan to play Brawl with items ON. Why? Because I want the new experience. We've already seen a lot of really cool new things, and I want to see what they can do and how they behave, how they glitch, and so on. Items are not a bad thing, they simply do not hold a place in tournament play.

 

[Samus_2021]

The reason why I decided to put this into the Brawl section is because even though the game hasn't been relased yet, the Item debate still applies. Plus I'm in the General Brawl Section.

As for the explanations given so far, I'd have to agree. Even to the users who prefer not to have items. I just wanted to have a more broad opinion of others too see what anyone else thought.

 

[Zevox]

Personally, I can enjoy either, though I favor having them on due to the extra set of options, scenarios, and challenges they allow. I don't see any point to being all competitive about a darn video game, so I don't understand why their arrival being luck is a problem, especially when most do take skill to use well or counter, but whatever. Its a game, its fun either way.

Zevox

 

[jambre]

I enjoy without food items on

 

[PIT_IS_BACK]

I can enjoy with any items, they were put in the game for a reason after all. It would be a waste to never play with them.

 

[Zantetsu]

Played a 99 stock match with my friend the other day with items. We said "Ehh lets top playing seriously and have some fun with this =D" CRAZY crap happened. One i remember was i got hit with a bat, got flung, got his with a bomb, got flung then got hit with a fire flower then died. Went all over the place. Yet when brawl comes out (I get excited when i say that XD) i dont know WHAT im going to do...Items probably.

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

*waits with bated breath for Dylan_Tnga to enter the discussion*
Hehe... but seriously, I don't mind items that much. The healing ones can bother me sometimes, along with anything that can explode, but the rest are kind of fun. It's nice to be able to pick up and throw items, since I play Marth and have no projectiles. I really hope they have some way to turn off the barrel/box/capsule explosions, because that was the main reason I completely stopped playing with items. I'll definitely play with items for at least a couple days after Brawl comes out, if only to just mess around with the new items.

 

[Conformal_Invariance]

I personally enjoy items.

I do turn some of them off though, like Heart Containers and Maxim Tomatoes... but I leave plain food on.

I like the random Party Ball buffets.

I like the random Bob-omb Parties even more!

Me and my friends play with our special little system, though... if it gets to a really close battle, we'll forego items and toss them off edges. We play with Low showups, though, so items aren't -too- common.

As for exploding barrels, boxes, and capsules... I laugh everytime I hit one. Nothing makes me smile more than an explosion.

 

[NES n00b]

I don't think they are unfair (depends on what items or what not but I really don't care). I just don't think they are fun especially when people turn pokeballs or bo-ombs really high. I am tired of those random kind of matches.

Also, they don't really add a layer of strategy. They replace certain strats and usually making it simpler. An example is edgeguarding. Chucking item at an opponent is much easier than a normal edgeguard. I won't go into it anymore, but you probably get the idea.

 

[Zantetsu]

I don't think they are unfair (depends on what items or what not but I really don't care)

the way they are unfair (In my oppinion) is they spawn at random places. Lets say its a close match, both players at 100% and you and your opponent are on opposite sides of the stage. Oh whats this? A bomb spawns where your opponent is. He throws it. You die. Fair? I dont think so >_>

 

[oxyborb]

I think items are good.

I hate healing/invincibility items though, but I think it's best to play with items are low so your friends who aren't as good as you can compete a little. Also items make things even more interesting.

Besides, items are being developed to be played with, meaning the game is balanced with items in mind. That means less characters can compete without items.

 

[GreenKirby]

 

[Caael]

Use them on Low and sometimes on medium. They add depth. If you didn't have items at all, it would make the game just like a dumbed down Soul Caliber or Tekken. Which is no fun.

 

[Demon Kirby]

On. Most definately. Off seems like I'm missing half the game.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Do you prefer to fight with items on or off? Do you feel that fighting with Items is "cheap" or "unfair"? Or do you feel that Items adds another layer of game play and challenge?

Reason I'm asking is because I got into a debate with a friend about this topic, and I wanted to know what others think. His reasoning was because he thinks Items require no skill to use and gives it's user an unfair advantage.

If playing Smash is so "skill based" why would it matter if there were items or not? If someone was skilled in the ways of knowing every aspect of the game like knowing each item, knowing what Items' advantages vs. their disadvantages, why would that matter?

I personally believe that Items add another challenge to game play. It keeps things different and always changing. One of Smash Bros.' shining quality is the fact that no two matches are ever the same. Items only bring out more of that element.

What do you think?

Q. Do You prefer items on or off?
A. Off for competitive. Indifferent for fun.

Q. Do you feel that fighting with items is "cheap" or "unfair"?
A. This is a difficult question to answer. First, you have to understand that "cheap" and "unfairness" are not part of the game. It only recognizes winners. So, to directly answer your question, No. Items are not cheap or unfair because those things don't exist for them to be. (Words like "cheap", "unfair", and "honor" are used by scrubs for excuses to lose)

Q. Do items add another layer to the game?
A. Yes. Honestly, they do. However, in a tournament match, they bring in a random element. So, let me bring up a hypothetical situation. It is possible for items to spawn at any time. If you have ANY item turned on, you can have explosive capsules. So, my hypothetical situation is....

What if every time only YOU attacked an exploding capsule landed on you?

It is completely possible. Would you want that to happen? No skill is involved if as soon as you attack, an item spawns in your hit frames and explodes. The entire match. That is why items are currently not in tournaments. The random quality in which they introduce is solely because of the exploding containers. I'm sorry, but when there's money on the line, I don't want the match to be determined by a random boolean variable.

However, in SSBB, if containers can be turned off, or do not explode. There may be sanctioned item tournaments. (Though, however, if the tiers are anything like melee, then the good characters will be better and the bad characters will be worse. )




And as for your comment about no two matches being the same......

Even if two players play the same game over again, it will not play out the same. Every match is a new match, because previous experiences are taken into account. So the Ken that plays in round 1 is not the same ken that plays in round 2.

 

[Adi]

They serve their purpose well, which is to please people who enjoy watching pretty colors =D.

 

[Revven]

Here are my thoughts on it.

I will turn on items if my opponent wants them on. If they do not or don't care, I keep them off simply because there's more reasons to keep them off than there are reasons to keep them on. During a match, a number of things can be done with items. I shall list them:

1. Crate/Barrel/Capsule explodes on you and kills you.

2. Bomb-Omb randomly starts running and you don't jump out of the way quick enough and get hit and die (simply because you didn't know about it before-hand).

3. Pokéballs are completely random and can favor or not favor you.

4. The randomization of where the items spawn, luck based.

5. The throwing of items to lead into an edgeguard or to rank up damage. Three to four items do this and are better used by being thrown: Homerun Bat, Star Rod, Beam Sword (to an extent), and Ray Gun (to an extent). Homerun Bat does ridiciulous damage and has rather ridiculous physics allowing you to catch it before it lands and disappears allowing you to throw it again at any interval of an opening. Same with the Star Rod, except, you can use it strategically because it bounces once on the ground when thrown at or on a certain plane or angle of the stage, thereby hitting the opponent and bouncing off of them giving a chance to throw it again. Both of these lead into edgeguards/edgehogs or rank up damage.

Ray Gun and Beam Sword are thrown to rank up damage and can't really lead into edgeguards or edgehogs well enough. At least, until you get your opponent up to 100%.

These 5 things are mostly why I believe items are off and should favorably be off. Unless, otherwise said by my opponent I will keep them off. If they're on, I use these strategies and in which case is fair. But, since I keep them off unless otherwise told to turn them on I believe that they give an edge to those higher tier characters, including ones who don't have range.

 

[SirroMinus1]

no! items dont take an ounce of skill. there are pokeballs that ko in 1 hit, hammer 2 or 3 hits bombomb. enough said

 

[Druggedfox]

Brawl will not have items allowed imo. This is mostly because in "item tournaments" (People have those in serious play, but there are rules) items that affect how u can approach some1 are banned. Example, if some1 has a bomb-omb its much harder to approach them in fear of getting hit. While on the other hand ray gun is allowed because it doesnt pose much of a threat. So if in serious brawl tournies they allowed items for some reason, very few would be allowed because from the looks of them, things like gooey bomb and cracker barrel DEFINITELY affect how you approach and your play style. Thats the main reason why items are banned besides random explosions etc. Btw, unless it was deleted there was an actual items tourney with people like Ken and Dope entering, but it was a REALLY long time ago.

 

[Twin Dreams]

1. Hammer is the WORST item in the game. Picking that up is ensuring your own death. Why? You pick up the hammer.... Oh noez. I run to the edge of the stage. You come at me, I shield. Now what? I'm shielding. If you hit me with hammer, I shield grab and instantly kill you. If not, then you stand there like an idiot with the hammer.


2. Item spawns aren't really based on luck. If you consider the spawns random, they have an equally likely chance of spawning anywhere.... So, eventually, on average, item drops will be distributed evenly between characters.

 

[Jackal478]

I enjoy it either way.

My preference is no items though.

And items dont nessescarily take skill nor do they add much depth to techniques.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Brawl will not have items allowed imo. This is mostly because in "item tournaments" (People have those in serious play, but there are rules) items that affect how u can approach some1 are banned. Example, if some1 has a bomb-omb its much harder to approach them in fear of getting hit. While on the other hand ray gun is allowed because it doesnt pose much of a threat. So if in serious brawl tournies they allowed items for some reason, very few would be allowed because from the looks of them, things like gooey bomb and cracker barrel DEFINITELY affect how you approach and your play style. Thats the main reason why items are banned besides random explosions etc. Btw, unless it was deleted there was an actual items tourney with people like Ken and Dope entering, but it was a REALLY long time ago.

.............


this is assuming that exploding containers are taken out.

Uh.. The only items that shouldn't be allowed in tournaments are powerful items. Bomb-omb. food, heart, tomato, and star. A sticky bomb would be allowed. Suggesting you can't have things that affect approach or play style is ridiculous. You'd be banning bumper. Because your approach is now changed to an aerial one. Every item is affected and changes your play style. Christ, even the mood you are in affects your play style.

 

[Takeshi245]

They serve their purpose well, which is to please people who enjoy watching pretty colors =D.

LOL! For me, I prefer no items since the random explosion of capsules and crates are annoying and add more chaos. They don't add that much depth to the game as advanced techniques do, and that's a fact. Though I'll play with items in Brawl, most of my matches will be no items. I like skill-based matches more.

 

[Conker1]

I always play with them on. There's still plenty of skill involved, and I usually beat the people I play with whether they're on or not. I don't plan on joining any online matches that have them off.

 

[Adi]

Because your friends are a good representation of the entire smash community right?

 

[Spellman]

My Thoughts On Topic

I think items are good.

I hate healing/invincibility items though, but I think it's best to play with items are low so your friends who aren't as good as you can compete a little. Also items make things even more interesting.

Besides, items are being developed to be played with, meaning the game is balanced with items in mind. That means less characters can compete without items.

Yeah, I've already recited my thoughts on items in the Final Smash topic, but I'll say it again here, seems to be the thing to do. Actually I don't have to, that quote pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue. But it's like if you were able to turn off items in Mario Kart. That would suck. The only thing that would even out the match then is mostly driving skill, and if you're a pro, then you'd pretty much have to pick the same character and kart (or speed/weight class/handling/acceleration) to make it even, which seriously eliminates the variety factor that it's so popular for.

To be fair, if some of the more exploited items were nerfed just a bit, maybe they wouldn't be so frowned upon.

But yeah, as powerful as items can be right now, none of them are REALLY impossible to dodge. Exploding crates are slow striker's and smasher's weaknesses. A quick attacker rarely has to worry about exploding crates, barrels or capsules unless they're smash-crazy.

However, I don't mind playing no items here and there, but that's mostly because my main character is Marth (and sometimes Link), and he's loaded with no item advantages.

 

[Ryudragon29]

I don't think they are unfair (depends on what items or what not but I really don't care). I just don't think they are fun especially when people turn pokeballs or bo-ombs really high. I am tired of those random kind of matches.

Also, they don't really add a layer of strategy. They replace certain strats and usually making it simpler. An example is edgeguarding. Chucking item at an opponent is much easier than a normal edgeguard. I won't go into it anymore, but you probably get the idea.

Why try something complicated when you can do it simple?

 

[dk64]

item's for "juz 4 fun" battles, and no items "serious battles", nuff said.

 

[Birdie]

Personally I am indifferent whether or not I play with items. All the nonsense about the random spawning locations and intervals making items unfair is quite lame though; Although it does suck if it doesn't spawn in your favor, in a one-on-one match in theory half the time it will be in your favor, half in the favor of your opponent.

 

[Sprigginz_Caldo]

IMO, items are a pain in the butt. They are annoying, they are luck based....sure they require SOME skill to use (throwing?), but really, I'd prefer a fight without them any day of the week.

 

[Red Exodus]

Depends on my mood. I have friends that like to talk **** when they win a match, the last thing I want is to be brought down by some random bomb-omb walking on a ledge when I recover or throwing off my combos by stretching the screen. It's ****ing ********. It's bad enough that i'm stuck in FFA [long story, don't ask] all the time anyway.


Sometimes I play with items just to screw around, nothing like throwing a noob into his only motion censor.

To me, items are an alternative. People can have item tournaments and no item tournaments if they want, that way everyone is happy.

 

[Ness Earthbound Genius]

I can understand no items in competitive play, but I'm here for the fun factor, so items always. Unless I'm at my friend's house. He goes to tournaments, so we never play with items on.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Items = luck = gay

Words to live by.

Items are fun, but they get boring fast, and no items is infinatly better if you want to see who's better than who at the actual game, ie : fighting.