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Item Standard Play Ruleset

Kalierdarke

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The special flag takes -about- as long as jigglypuff waking from a rest. The fact that jigglypuff can wake before being revenge hit means the flag can be accessed following a KO. Or in some cases even while the opponent is recovering from off stage.
 

popsofctown

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The special flag takes -about- as long as jigglypuff waking from a rest. The fact that jigglypuff can wake before being revenge hit means the flag can be accessed following a KO. Or in some cases even while the opponent is recovering from off stage.
Jigglypuff always awakens from a rest where she is, the flag is positional. You could strategically avoid the special flag area if you know you are vulnerable to getting killed, so that your opponent isn't close enough to it when you die to pull off the stock gain. Needs testing IMO.
 

Kalierdarke

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Jigglypuff always awakens from a rest where she is, the flag is positional. You could strategically avoid the special flag area if you know you are vulnerable to getting killed, so that your opponent isn't close enough to it when you die to pull off the stock gain. Needs testing IMO.
the flag can be picked up and thrown, so player A can position it where they want while player B is off stage, KO player B, then use the flag.
 

Kalierdarke

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How does that work? I've never thrown it in the 3ds game.
It has the same properties as a smoke ball when thrown, with the exception that it doesn't have collision with other players. But it can still be thrown down, where it will bounce a few times before coming to rest right where you want it.


Aka, when thrown, it flies in the direction you pointed and bounces.
 
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LiteralGrill

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So an update here, after getting all the feedback and doing more testing I agree that items on Low honestly spawns TOO little so I've upped it to Medium. I've also moved (Ore Club) and (Super Scope) to the banned area for now as they do seem a bit overpowered for items play. I'd like to hear feedback on these changes for sure!
 

LiteralGrill

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I HATE double posting but never thought about this, did items get any sorts of changes from recent patches that anyone noticed or knows about?
 

Lavani

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I HATE double posting but never thought about this, did items get any sorts of changes from recent patches that anyone noticed or knows about?
I wouldn't know about any of the items legal for this ruleset, but I do know that Smart Bombs changed in 3DS 1.0.5 to suck characters toward the center of the explosion as opposed to repeatedly hitting them in the same spot (very noticeable when practicing SDI with them, SDIing out horizontally went from trivial to impossible). So at least one item has been touched in patches.
 

Kalierdarke

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playing around for fun the other day after the patch, I managed to get a super scope kill at sub 100% with a charge of "held the button just long enough to not rapid fire" so that might be a little more dangerous, I didn't think to test it but if it's true it certainly pushes the weapon further into the banned side.

The flag -might- be a very small amount faster. I don't remember the exact time it took to activate before, but I certainly recall them not being this easy to activate.

Steel diver may need to be looked at. I don't think it was significantly changed but it feels different.

I didn't notice any possible changes to anything else, and I was playing with all items but hammers and starman on.
 
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webbedspace

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So an update here, after getting all the feedback and doing more testing I agree that items on Low honestly spawns TOO little so I've upped it to Medium. I've also moved (Ore Club) and (Super Scope) to the banned area for now as they do seem a bit overpowered for items play. I'd like to hear feedback on these changes for sure!
Just a note, you need to update the Item Impressions section in the OP as well, as it still lists Ore Club etc. in the "okay" category.
 

LiteralGrill

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Just a note, you need to update the Item Impressions section in the OP as well, as it still lists Ore Club etc. in the "okay" category.
Huh, could have swore I fixed that, nice catch! I got it all right now.

I wouldn't know about any of the items legal for this ruleset, but I do know that Smart Bombs changed in 3DS 1.0.5 to suck characters toward the center of the explosion as opposed to repeatedly hitting them in the same spot (very noticeable when practicing SDI with them, SDIing out horizontally went from trivial to impossible). So at least one item has been touched in patches.
Which means I'd better do a quick double check of all the items today just in case! I'll be back if I find anything else noticable :D
 

MechPasta

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You didn't think of Rosalina first? :p

Villager has some cool things he can do with his pocket, but nothing really broken by any means that I have seen.
I forgot about Rosalina, but Villager is still so fun with items.
 

Lavani

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Reading through the item impressions in the OP, I noticed you mention the Drill isn't easy to DI out of. It's a character dependent thing, but some characters can't get out at all with regular DI. HOWEVER, if you SDI toward the drill you can actually pop out of it quite quickly and easily regardless of character.

Comparison on 40% Greninja:

I don't know if I'd argue it should be legal, though. The handle itself is practically a stitchface (thrown by Greninja, does 25% and KOs Meta Knight around 80%), though the opponent can catch it as well so it isn't necessarily a free win button with no counterplay. Just wanted to clear up that the drill itself is quite escapable.
 
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clydeaker

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I don't see why some characters can use Items is tournament play and other can't.
For example:
Mega Man - Metal Blade
Peach - Turnup, Bomb, Mr Saturn
Diddy Kong - Banana Peal
Link - Bomb
Toon Link - Bomb

Also some characters move sets are designed with Items in mind for example:
Villager - Pocket

As long as extremely unfair items aren't used I am completely fine with this idea and fully support it. :)

EDIT: Here's a neat video I found on the subject of Items in competitive Smash:
 
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LiteralGrill

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I don't see why some characters can use Items is tournament play and other can't.
For example:
Mega Man - Metal Blade
Peach - Turnup, Bomb, Mr Saturn
Diddy Kong - Banana Peal
Link - Bomb
Toon Link - Bomb

Also some characters move sets are designed with Items in mind for example:
Villager - Pocket

As long as extremely unfair items aren't used I am completely fine with this idea and fully support it. :)

EDIT: Here's a neat video I found on the subject of Items in competitive Smash:
I actually covered that video for the front page of Smashboards! :D

Yes, I know this ruleset would have some folks who sincerely enjoyed it, and some characters really get to do some cool things with items on. I know it's not for everyone though.
 

Prometheus16

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One thing I've noticed, is that I've used every item available in the games, so I'm willing to let them be used...

I think the longer you go with playing them, the better you get at dealing with the items. The star-man is actually really easy to deal with, since all you need to do is play keep away...
 

clydeaker

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I'm sure we can all agree the banana peal should be allowed untill diddy kong is banned from using his banana peals. Ha ha! That goes for peach with mr Saturn and turnips too.
 

CrzyIvnXLII

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Hey SmashCapps! I ran across this thread while doing a Google search the other day. I was just wondering if this project is still ongoing. It sounds like a cool idea to try out in a competitive environment, and I've been trying out these settings for the past few days now. The balance feels pretty good to me.

I've also been trying out using Smash Balls on 5-minute matches like that one person suggested previously. They're spawning about 2-3 times a match on average for me.
 

Prometheus16

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Hey SmashCapps! I ran across this thread while doing a Google search the other day. I was just wondering if this project is still ongoing. It sounds like a cool idea to try out in a competitive environment, and I've been trying out these settings for the past few days now. The balance feels pretty good to me.

I've also been trying out using Smash Balls on 5-minute matches like that one person suggested previously. They're spawning about 2-3 times a match on average for me.
Is it 2-stock matches?
 

CrzyIvnXLII

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Is it 2-stock matches?
I actually tried it as both a 2-stock match and the default timed scoring match. 2-stock matches usually only last around 2-3 minutes, so the SB doesn't always appear, but when it does, it could definitely affect the outcome of the match significantly since there will usually only be one during the entire match, and having only 2 stocks from the start is already low insurance. However, the SB spawns about twice in 5-minute scoring matches, so it will appear at least once in most matches, and in case someone gets hit with a Final Smash in the first minute or two of the match, there's still time and opportunity to make a comeback because it is likely to appear again. If its first appearance is later in a close match, it's more of a tiebreaker than a gamebreaker.

I'd say not to allow SBs for stock matches, but if in the off chance that any tournament decides to play scoring matches instead, they should be allowed.
 

LiteralGrill

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Currently I agree that SmashBalls don't work well in ISP but I do enjoy that two players could gentleman to have them on like I have now. The few ISP events I hosted didn't have almost anyone do so but the few who did had fun :)
 

CrzyIvnXLII

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Speaking of ISP events, I'd be down to play online with these rules sometime if anyone else is.
 

Prometheus16

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One thing I immediately noticed was that it is EXTREMELY easy to punish someone for going after the SB. Unless the character has a strong areal game or strong attacks like Ike's B-air, DK's U-air, or all of Jigglypuff's (how the heck is this word spelt?), it could be quite difficult for you to guarentee that you get the Final Smash.

I always went after it first, and usually lost it.
 

CrzyIvnXLII

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One thing I immediately noticed was that it is EXTREMELY easy to punish someone for going after the SB. Unless the character has a strong areal game or strong attacks like Ike's B-air, DK's U-air, or all of Jigglypuff's (how the heck is this word spelt?), it could be quite difficult for you to guarentee that you get the Final Smash.

I always went after it first, and usually lost it.
Same here, actually. The only time anyone was able to really get it was if they already had control of the stage and their opponent was trying to recover.
 

DiscoCokkroach

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Did you guys test for the odd knockback angle of a thrown Star Rod? In Brawl, the Star Rod was banned in ISP because of it's gimp potential when thrown, and from what I can gather from testing it out in Training, it seems to be very similar.
 

LancerStaff

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Hey LiteralGrill LiteralGrill you might want to fix the opening post... Collaspe stopped working with a Smashboards update, though spoiler still works.

Also, I remember the Motion Sensor Bomb being legal in Brawl because it doesn't explode on contact with an attack. It can explode if dropped after getting hit though.
 

LiteralGrill

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Hey LiteralGrill LiteralGrill you might want to fix the opening post... Collaspe stopped working with a Smashboards update, though spoiler still works.

Also, I remember the Motion Sensor Bomb being legal in Brawl because it doesn't explode on contact with an attack. It can explode if dropped after getting hit though.
I'll fix that! But several bomb weapons had being hit making them explode in this game for some reason o-o
 

Megamang

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Did you guys test for the odd knockback angle of a thrown Star Rod? In Brawl, the Star Rod was banned in ISP because of it's gimp potential when thrown, and from what I can gather from testing it out in Training, it seems to be very similar.

I'm impartial because I don't play with ISP, but I will say that in smash 4 you have a better chance of living a low KB angle since your opponent cannot ledgehog you, your airdodges are insane and can catch the item,and most recoveries in general are stronger.
 

Jamurai

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I think the X bomb would be fine. It gives fair warning about where its hitboxes will be and they don't last very long (compared to some items). It's also not as absurdly powerful as other bombs. Even if it is triggered accidentally when spawned, you've got a good couple of seconds to react. Fair item in my book, unless I'm missing something.
 

b2jammer

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While I'm not as optimistic about seeing this kind of tournament between human players, I see TONS of potential for amiibo ISP. Item-based equipment like Item Pitcher and item-granting badges could finally see actual use (especially the Final Smash based ones if Smash Balls were allowed too), which would potentially increase the amount of viable strategies for each character - want to be a battering ram, strive for stage control, or simply try to rid the field of items so they don't get used against you? It feels like a natural combination to me IMO.
--To avoid double posting...--
I think the X bomb would be fine. It gives fair warning about where its hitboxes will be and they don't last very long (compared to some items). It's also not as absurdly powerful as other bombs. Even if it is triggered accidentally when spawned, you've got a good couple of seconds to react. Fair item in my book, unless I'm missing something.
For the most part I agree, but the major problems with it are the fact you can trigger it prematurely at all, its orientation is random IIRC which can make it very hard to plan around, and it spans the entire stage which can make it almost impossible to avoid if positioned correctly, not to mention it also doesn't affect the user if it's thrown and not hit. So I can see why it's banned, but you do bring up good points.
 
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