Item Standard Play Ruleset

[LiteralGrill]

Welcome everyone to the Item Standard Play Ruleset thread! What is Item Standard Play you ask? Well back in the days of Brawl a user named @Jack Kieser sat down and with the work and testing of many people made an official ruleset for Brawl that included items. If you are interested in seeing the history of Item Standard Play you can find that thread here.

In order to keep this legacy alive and in order to create a good ruleset for those who enjoy items I have taken up the cause.

NOTE: This thread concerns official rulesets and playstyle discussion for the creation of a unified approved item listing for item-based tournament play. This thread is NOT for:

• Flaming
• Discussion of whether items (in general) are tournament viable
• Discussion concerning the 'randomness' of items
• Trying to replace any form or facet of current, established tournament play
• etc.

All of the above will not be tolerated. If you are looking to discuss whether items should be allowed in tournaments, you have come to the wrong place.

ISP Mission Statement ​

Spoiler

• To experiment to find a unified list of items that are 'approved' for item-based tournament play, as well as 'approved' playstyles and rulesets for the creation of item-based tournaments. As in any tournament format, final discretion is always in the hands of the tournament organizer.
• To create a scene that can/will act as a stepping stone for the introduction of casual players into the traditional tournament scene without forcing them to 'abandon' all of the conventions of casual play.
• To create a scene that current tournament players can go to, if they so choose, that has an alternate style of play than what they are used to.
• To create a unified place that tournament organizers can come to discuss, create, and advertise item-based tournament events.

ISP Recommended Items List​

Spoiler

Item Spawn Set To: Medium

LEGAL: (Food) (Warp Star) (Beam Sword) (Lip's Stick) (Star Rod) (Fire Bar) (Ray Gun) (Fire Flower) (Steel Diver) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Mr. Saturn) (Banana Peel) (Boomerang) (Killer Eye) (Franklin Badge) (Super Leaf) (Rocket Belt)

BANNED: (Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Masterball) (Dragoon Parts) (Daybreak Parts) (Barrel) (Crate) (Capsule) (Rolling Crate) (Party Ball) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Fairy Bottle) (Super Mushroom) (Poison Mushroom) (Super Star) (Metal Box) (Superspicy Curry) (Timer) (Lightnight) (Hammer) (Golden Hammer) (Gust Bellows) (Bob-omb) (Gooey Bomb) (Smart Bomb) (Bombchu) (X Bomb) (Hocotate Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Hot Head) (Green Shell) (Bumper) (Spring) (Unira) (Soccer Ball) (POW Block) (Cucco) (Beehive) (Boss Galaga) (Special Flag) (Home-Run Bat) (Drill) (Freezie) (Screw Attack) (Spiny Shell) (Bunny Hood) (Bullet Bill) (Back Shield) (Motion-Sensor Bomb) (Sandbag) (Ore Club) (Super Scope)

Questionable: (Smash Ball)*

*Note: I know a lot of the reason people even want to play with items is to use the Smash Ball. This item does not really fit our ISP Criteria. However, since it is such a popular item I have deemed it questionable and do not outright discourage tournament use. If people want to have it on let them and let's test it.

ISP Criteria​

Spoiler

When developing this list of items of ISP I followed the criteria of our predecessor to decide which items would be appropriate for tournament play. I have listed these criteria below for the sake of understanding and to help promote discussion based on these items.

Preservation of Risk/Reward: The basic concept of 'punishment' in a fighting game. Every move has a risk/reward value that affects its usefulness and effectiveness in any given situation, and acceptable items must preserve this vital relationship. If an item has too little risk for too much of a reward, then the item is to be deemed 'broken' and must be disabled from play; conversely, if an item has too much risk for a very small amount of reward, then the item shall be deemed 'redundant' and should be removed from play in an attempt to condense item listings (this is not as important as removing 'broken' items, however).

Acceptable Counter Systems in Place: Every move must have a counter; if there is no counter, than strategically there is no reason not to use it at all times. For an item to be considered 'balanced' it must always have at least one counter at all times. If an item does not have at least one global strategic counter, then it shall be deemed 'broken' and banned from play.

Acceptable Level of Effect on Match Outcome: Applicable to both items and stages. If an item has a dramatic effect on battle to the extent that an entire match can ride on the item's use, then the item should be considered 'broken' and banned from play. This criterion has the most grey area because items in and of themselves are designed to effect the outcome of a match. Thus, acceptable levels of interference must be maintained; small changes in match dynamics are acceptable, while items promoting 'spawn camping' and like strategies should be banned. As a corollary to this, we must also take into account if an item forces its effects on a player (for instance, by spawning on top of a player); items of lower effect can have more leeway on this rule, while items with vast effects must only be usable by player decision.

Item Impressions​

Spoiler

This section is for our current impressions on every item explaining why they are legal or banned. These may change over time as we have more information about items and any possible exploits or strategies these items may promote. This is incredibly open to discussion, and any good discussion in this thread may be added here.

We are doing something different then the original ISP thread however. We will not be having counterpick items. We deem if an item is not safe enough for game one, we do not think is is good for the entire set.

Now, for an explanation on each item:

(Grass) This one is very simple. You see the patch of Grass, pull it up and get another item. Players could negotiate stage control over the possibility of a random item from the items turned on, and the item even takes a second to be usable. This is a very tame item as is good for ISP

(Food) An item that can replenish a tiny bit of health. While there is no traditional "counter" to food, food at most can only heal maybe one hits worth of health, so just getting hit by the opponent negates its effect. This item is very tame and unlikely to sway the match drastically. It also adds one item to the possibility of all items being spawned effectively diluting the item pool and reducing the effect other items have on the outcome of a fight. Food is good for ISP.

(Warp Star) The Warp Star has a limited range of aiming, which means that many times a player can simply run out of range of the star, but even if this is not an option, all it takes is a simple well-timed air dodge for a player to completely negate the Warp Star. A great pressure item that is well balanced, the Warp Star is highly recommended for item play.

(Beam Sword) The sword is not incredibly strong and some of it's attacks are slow, but it is made up for slightly with it's nice range. This item could help those without good disjoints get in on certain characters while still being punishable if they miss. A good ISP candidate.

(Lip's Stick) This item definitely fits the criteria. It is well restricted by it's range, and although the contact with the flower can drain health it is proportionate to the strengths of the attack. This makes it so skilled players can avoid the long charged hits or be prepared for the short ones. It's not going to KO at most percentages either. Lip's Stick is approve3d for ISP.

(Star Rod) A unique item in that it is the only item in the game capable of acting as both a projectile and a bludgeon (without having to be thrown), the Star Rod opens up a lot of interesting strategies. The item isn't overpowered and adds in a good way to strategic value for an item. Approved for ISP.

(Fire Bar) An interesting item, it slowly gets smaller and smaller with each major hit you get the opponent with. When you are down to one fireball the item doesn't seem to die either. Though by that point your range is severely reduced. This item isn't overly strong as a bludgeon and as the range lowers over time this breaks none of our criteria and is good for ISP.

(Ray Gun) The shots the gun has itself are not very powerful and provide very little knockback. The biggest potential this weapon may have is to chain together attacks for a low percentage kill if you can trap an opponent offstage. It is very possible to DI out f this however. This item is approved for ISP for now, but we'll be watching to see if these low percentage kills become an issue.

(Fire Flower) A simple power similar to the flame breath of Boswer or Charizard but much weaker. It has its strategic uses but removes so of the possible moves from your repertoire while you have it. A tame item breaking no criteria, it's good for ISP.

(Steel Diver) Reminiscent of the Ray Gun but this projectile takes a bit of tile before it really gets moving and can fly. This item is also capable of a chain to try and kill off stage players but because of the delayed timing it is incredibly difficult to make happen. With good strength but slow start up to compensate this item is good for ISP

(Smoke Ball) An extremely tame item, Smoke Ball can be used to obscure your movements slightly. It only lasts a short time and is very tame doing no damage. It can stick to you if you're hit with it as well. Approved for ISP

(Pitfall) This item can be used in two ways. You can throw it down to set a trap similar to the motion censor bomb, or throw it directly at your opponent hoping to catch them or spike them. When opponents are in the air or on certain platforms, Pitfalls with smash them down into the ground. An item that can be caught and dodged or just avoided if it's set up as a trap, it is approved for ISP.

(Mr. Saturn) A simple projecile that walks around the stage. Mr. Saturn is known for eating shields up for breakfast. He can also absorb certain moves so he can be used strategically for that purpose. A solid item for ISP.

(Banana Peel) Functionally Diddy Kong's Banana Peel. If it's okay for a character to have it, it's okay as an item. Approved for ISP.

(Boomerang) A cool item, it acts as a normal projectile but increases in damage each time you catch it. Catching it is not always easy however, and a simple hit after throwing it can usually lose the item for you. A projectile with cool strategic value, it is approved for ISP.

(Killer Eye) Set this baby down and get yourself some lasers shot out to bug your opponents. The opponent can knock this over with a decent hit however making it only so useful for stage control. An item with a basic counter, it is approved for ISP.

(Franklin Badge) Immunity to projectiles! This may seem overly strong at first, but the Franklin Badge can be knocked off with a strong hit giving it a reasonable counter, plus it vanishes over time. Approved for ISP.

(Super Leaf) (Rocket Belt) These two items can do some awesome things in terms of recovery and giving you more options. Recently banned, it was pointed out that these can be knocked off just like the Franklin Badge that is currently legal. Having a possible counter they are currently approved for ISP.

(Metal Box) (Lightning) (Bob-omb) (Gooey Bomb) (Smart Bomb) (Bombchu) (X Bomb) (Hocotate Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Green Shell) (Unira) (Soccer Ball) (POW Block) (Cucco) (Beehive) (Freezie) (Super Star) (Super Mushroom) (Poison Mushroom) (Motion-Sensor Bomb) (Sandbag) Let's start with the biggest group of all of the items. All of these are banned because they can be used by simply hitting them. If they spawn in midair or in the middle of any attack this is an issue as the player themselves is not consciously attempting to use them. These easily break our criteria and are banned from ISP.

(Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Masterball) Each of these is capable of being used then just enjoying what happens. Maybe you get a weak Pokemon or Assist, maybe you get an incredibly amazing one. These items are just not well balanced and break our ISP criteria, so much be banned from ISP

(Barrel) (Crate) (Capsule) (Rolling Crate) (Party Ball) (Blast Box) Containers. Some of these can explode at random and spawn in the middle of an attack causing issues. On top of this when on these items are more likely to spawn and they bring in large amounts of items in at once which can cause abuse problems. These break our criteria and must be banned from ISP.

(Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Fairy Bottle) Getting one of these can seriously swing the match. These are just too powerful for healing, and must be banned from ISP.

(Hammer) (Golden Hammer) (Home-Run Bat) (Daybreak Parts) (Ore Club) These items just have too much power if they get in your hands. They could easily sway a match quite quickly and are just too unbalanced for ISP.

(Boss Galaga) (Spiny Shell) These items have no real strategy. You throw them and get a free chance to put massive pressure on your opponent. These items are unbalanced and thus banned in ISP.

(Dragoon Parts) while it takes a while to get the parts and they can be knocked away this item has a major issue. Once they are collected the reticule will perfectly target the player for a split second. All it takes is mashing the A button and you will unavoidably hit the opponent. This item is therefore too unbalanced and banned from ISP.

(Superspicy Curry) This item gives you a strong free pressure tool as long as you keep moving. There is no decent counter to this. It's unbalanced nature and lack of strategic value make it banned in ISP.

(Timer) To start this item can either slow your opponent, slow yourself, or slow you both. This wild nature makes the item unsafe to really use. On trop of this, players in the slow state can be abused by some ridiculous combos. This item is unfit for ISP.

(Gust Bellows) The GIMP potential this item has is just too strong. So many characters will die without much to be able to even do against it if they are offstage. This item is too unbalanced for ISP.

(Hot Head) This item does not attack the person who threw it making it nice for them as a free pressure tool to just throw away and enjoy. However some characters can reflect the move and change its master too. Any electric/fire/explosive moves power up the item significantly as well. In the fast there were some crazy shinanigans with reflecters that could make this item a OHKO killing machine. Either way this item can become very power and unbalanced in matches especially if the opponent can reflect it or has these types of moves. Being so questionable, it is currently banned from ISP.

(Bumper) This item can make getting back to the edge a serious difficultly. This item is undiscriminating and hits everyone, but it is simply too strong an edgeguarding tool to be allowed in ISP.

(Spring) This item was able to be abused in the past to be able to spam moves repeatedly in complete safety. I have done some testing and it still seems possible to abuse the spring too much. Creating degenerate play, this item is banned in ISP.

(Special Flag) This item is much too powerful. While it takes a long time to complete, gaining an entire stock in a match is simply too unbalanced, so this item must be banned in ISP.

(Drill) The Drill once launched is not super easy to DI out of. But even if you escape it, the opponent can throw the extra part of the drill to retrap you again. This item could results in a lot of easy kills offstage at very early percents. Being so unbalanced, it must be banned from ISP.

(Screw Attack) This item is simply too strong. If done properly, you can string two jumps together and finish off characters with an up air at incredibly low percents. It's even easier to do once they are at higher percents. This item is unbalanced and must be removed from ISP.

(Bunny Hood) An item that is great for some but bad for other, Bunny Hood gives the character a drastic boost in speed and jumping ability. For slow characters this can be amazing, while for fast characters it can make them almost uncontrollable. So it has some risk but only for some characters, and rewards for only some characters. This item lack an honest true counter as well. The possible skewed balance of the item in a matchup and breaking criteria mean Bunny Hood is banned in ISP.

(Bullet Bill) This one was a more difficult call. This item is decently powerful, but it can send you very far off the side of a stage making you vulnerable (or even kill you offstage) if you aren't careful where you use it. If the opponent avoids you there is a moment to punish after you stop being the bullet as well. However it really is powerful and can kill very early. Plus Villager can pocket the item so he is not restricted by normal attack options then whip this out when he wants the kill. The item is just not balanced enough for ISP.

(Back Shield) While this item can be destroyed enough when hit (a reasonable coun ter) this item is also a bit buggy and like to block some attacks that hit from the front as well. Having that kind of invinsibility just ins't fair, so this item is banned in ISP.

(Super Scope) While it would seem this item isn't that bad on the surface it does have some issues in use. Being able to move while shooting is a nice thing but not too terrible since it takes away your attacks. However, the real issue is you don't need to charge to have a VERY long reaching repeatable kill move. This item is currently banned for having power issues after testing in events.

(Smash Ball) With most items, regardless of the character you are using, the effect of the item remains the same; Smash Balls were not designed with this in mind, however, and as such are not balanced in such a way as to give each character an equally powerful or effective Final Smash. This, in combination with frames of varying invincibility, wildly differing ranges, and the ability to change the outcome of a match in a single fell swoop makes Smash Balls break ISP criteria. However, with their pure popularity as an item and interest in Smash Balls being used in tournaments they have been deemed questionable for now as players will likely enjoy trying them. I don't personally recommend Smash Balls but will not condemn anyone using them in event.

​

I made a promise to @Jack Kieser that I would continue his legacy and make an Item Standard Play Ruleset for Smash 4. Here it is Jack, I hope I did well. I seriously encourage discussion on this ruleset as well as for people to give this a try for fun at home, at tournaments, or as a side event. Let's learn all about the items in this game and create a ruleset for those who enjoy items!

 

[Kofu]

Can you explain why something like the Ore Club would be allowed but not stuff like the Green Shell or Unira? Both aren't too intrusive IMO, unless you're banning them because they can be triggered passively (actually read parts of your post and I guess that's why, haha).

This seems interesting, I like playing with items sometimes even if they're not usually considered competitive by the usual standards.

 

[Conda]

Sounds fun as a less competitive tournament ruleset, kinda like LoL's alternative game modes and starcraft mods - the players of those games embrace those as enjoyable fun modes of play, while understanding that the true competitive mode is separate and not being threatened.


The issue is that spectators generally don't enjoy watching item play, and the value of skill as an entertaining aspect of a match to viewers becomes understated in the light of items and chaos. Smash becomes fun to watch for chaos, rather than control. And control - controlled skill-based gameplay - is the thing that has caused pro gaming to explode in the past few years.

There's a large spectator base that would be interested in high level competitive smash play, which is yet to be tapped in to fully. What i mean is the competitive scene as it is has so much growth potential with the current ruleset. Esports is growing at an alarming rate and Smash has the potential to be one of the big boys if we continue to put our best foot forward.

Item based play can potentially make onlookers decide Smash is, in fact, a party game and not a competitive controlled game like the other top esports games. This is a stigma that we have only recently eradicated. Thus, we should always make it clear this is a side event 'for fun' unwind-based event.

Just my thoughts.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can you explain why something like the Ore Club would be allowed but not stuff like the Green Shell or Unira? Both aren't too intrusive IMO, unless you're banning them because they can be triggered passively (actually read parts of your post and I guess that's why, haha).

This seems interesting, I like playing with items sometimes even if they're not usually considered competitive by the usual standards.

Unira and Green Shell specifically can be hit on item spawn to be used. In other words, they can be used accidentally. It's almost like hitting a Bob-omb in midair then being blown up, just that you might get a strong hit on your opponent for no fair reason instead. So yes, banning them for being triggered passively.

 

[san.]

How about the possibility of a minimalist item ruleset?

Grass
Sandbag
Food
Franklin Badge
Back Shield
Mr. Saturn

 

[LiteralGrill]

How about the possibility of a minimalist item ruleset?

Grass
Sandbag
Food
Franklin Badge
Back Shield
Mr. Saturn

Why would you want to minimize it that much? And what's the reasoning behind just those items?

 

[popsofctown]

How about the possibility of a minimalist item ruleset?

Grass
Sandbag
Food
Franklin Badge
Back Shield
Mr. Saturn

a minimalist ruleset overlaps with non-item play the most in its nature.

 

[squaminator]

I like it. But what does freezie do if you hit it? Just break right? I think it could be legal.

 

[san.]

a minimalist ruleset overlaps with non-item play the most in its nature.

Yeah, it'll feel like normal with a light twist. I think there's a pretty large gap with allowing bunny hoods and ray gun with a few things here and there. I was a fan of food on low in Brawl for instance.

 

[popsofctown]

If you went minimalist I'd want to strike items and loser counterpicks items lol

 

[LiteralGrill]

I like it. But what does freezie do if you hit it? Just break right? I think it could be legal.

It actually can freeze the person who breaks it. It surprised me honestly.

Yeah, it'll feel like normal with a light twist. I think there's a pretty large gap with allowing bunny hoods and ray gun with a few things here and there. I was a fan of food on low in Brawl for instance.

If I was going to as little impact as possible sure. However the idea here is to allow items into a ruleset with the same kind of consideration for stages and such. Something so positive if items actually were the standard format it would be as fair as possible.

 

[cardboardowl]

I was just thinking today about how items in smaller quantities make for an interesting change that could be competetive if done right. This would be fun for a side tourny, but i always feel like if items are in it should be 4 man FFA.

Any seeing this makes me happy.

Also what frequency is this for? medium?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I was just thinking today about how items in smaller quantities make for an interesting change that could be competetive if done right. This would be fun for a side tourny, but i always feel like if items are in it should be 4 man FFA.

Any seeing this makes me happy.

Also what frequency is this for? medium?

I would set them on low. The previous ISP in Brawl did this as well to try and reduce some of the item interference without taking out the soul of items too much.

 

[Asdioh]

If an item has too little risk for too much of a reward, then the item is to be deemed 'broken' and must be disabled from play

A lot of these break this criteria, namely bunny hood, franklin badge, super leaf, back shield, rocket belt... well, practically everything :x
Just thought I'd point that out, you may want to reword that or something.

 

[Nobie]

Though likely not a majority, I often wonder if there are plenty of competitive players who would like to play with some items on, but make the concession to play without items because that's what a ton of competitive players want, regardless of what items might potentially contribute to testing skills (managing unpredictable situations is a kind of skill).

 

[LiteralGrill]

A lot of these break this criteria, namely bunny hood, franklin badge, super leaf, back shield, rocket belt... well, practically everything :x
Just thought I'd point that out, you may want to reword that or something.

It also mentions each item should have a reasonable counter though. Which most do though a few admittedly may not. This is the VERY first draft though. Which means some will move and some will stay. I probably should move Super Lear, Rocket Belt, and Maybe even Bunny Hood though. Thanks man!

Edit: Just edited those up even. I shouldn't have overlooked those so easy. But first drafts are first drafts.

Though likely not a majority, I often wonder if there are plenty of competitive players who would like to play with some items on, but make the concession to play without items because that's what a ton of competitive players want, regardless of what items might potentially contribute to testing skills (managing unpredictable situations is a kind of skill).

I bet at the very least, some competitive players might like to do it for FUN. I think we sometimes do lose sight a bit and forget we can just pop things on and have good fun with the game sometimes and that it doesn't always need to be hyper-competitive. That's part of why I suggest this a bit as a side event too. It can be fun to try new things or have some variety.

 

[Conda]

It also mentions each item should have a reasonable counter though. Which most do though a few admittedly may not. This is the VERY first draft though. Which means some will move and some will stay. I probably should move Super Lear, Rocket Belt, and Maybe even Bunny Hood though. Thanks man!

Edit: Just edited those up even. I shouldn't have overlooked those so easy. But first drafts are first drafts.



I bet at the very least, some competitive players might like to do it for FUN. I think we sometimes do lose sight a bit and forget we can just pop things on and have good fun with the game sometimes and that it doesn't always need to be hyper-competitive. That's part of why I suggest this a bit as a side event too. It can be fun to try new things or have some variety.

Honestly, there's truth in medium-amounts of Mr. Saturns dropping in on the battlefield would make for interesting gameplay elements. In the same way adding a map boss to LoL-type games adds a very welcome bit of chaos to the mix.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Honestly, there's truth in medium-amounts of Mr. Saturns dropping in on the battlefield would make for interesting gameplay elements. In the same way adding a map boss to LoL-type games adds a very welcome bit of chaos to the mix.

A lot of the items can honestly do this. Not everything is just pick it up and throw it, there are intricate strategies behind some of these that can make a match really cool when one spawns.

 

[DunnoBro]

How about the possibility of a minimalist item ruleset?

Grass
Sandbag
Food
Franklin Badge
Back Shield
Mr. Saturn

I also vote for a minimalist set. We never had such a large array of low-impact, skill-intensive items and the really broken stuff is about the same level it's always been so I don't know why that would work all of a sudden.

I'd imagine Rosalina would be top tier in this meta though lol.

Additional potential ideas for minimal:

Boomerang
Gust Bellows
Soccer Ball
Super Leaf
Rocket Belt
Parasol
(MAYBE) Beehive

The only reusable items are saturn, boomerang, and parasol. I feel like items that can be thrown like laser sword, lip's stick, etc, are pretty powerful and very broken. (Especially on heavily specials/aerial based characters who can hold onto it)
And they're also not very fun to watch or skill intensive. They're just different smash attacks/tilts to get used to.

I feel like the scale of which we should measure items should be allowed in is with a type of flow chart.

Generally, if it can be worth it for players to ignore a spawned item completely to just go after their opponent or punish them for going after it, that's a good item. There shouldn't be a huge scramble for an item imo.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I also vote for a minimalist set. We never had such a large array of low-impact, skill-intensive items and the really broken stuff is about the same level it's always been so I don't know why that would work all of a sudden.

I'd imagine Rosalina would be top tier in this meta though lol.

Additional potential ideas for minimal:

Boomerang
Gust Bellows
Soccer Ball
Super Leaf
Rocket Belt
Parasol
(MAYBE) Beehive

The only reusable items are saturn, boomerang, and parasol. I feel like items that can be thrown like laser sword, lip's stick, etc, are pretty powerful and very broken. (Especially on heavily specials/aerial based characters who can hold onto it)
And they're also not very fun to watch or skill intensive. They're just different smash attacks/tilts to get used to.

I feel like the scale of which we should measure items should be allowed in is with a type of flow chart.

Generally, if it can be worth it for players to ignore a spawned item completely to just go after their opponent or punish them for going after it, that's a good item. There shouldn't be a huge scramble for an item imo.

Item throwing/catching can actually be quite interesting. The bludgeoning items may not look super pretty, but they open up approach options and sometimes gives characters without out disjoints to use as well.

If you read the post above, there's a reason why I have a ban on any item that can have an effect if hit on spawn. A Beehive or Soccer Ball could spawn right in front of an attack and cause issues unfairly because of it.

With literally no reason to not grab a Super Leaf or Rocket Belt and no real counter for players who do so the items aren't honestly balanced enough.

Gust Bellows have insane gimping capability. Whoever gets this is pretty much guaranteed a kill off the side of a stage.

Parasol isn't even in the game :|

 

[DunnoBro]

Parasol was brought back iirc. http://www.ign.com/wikis/super-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/Items
Pretty sure I saw it but can't check atm

Also gust bellows locks them out of a lot of options. Unless the opponent is already in the air/recovering it's rather useless in my experience.

And for the most part, items in general have "literally no reason not to be grabbed and no real counter" so I'm not sure your argument against super leaf and rocket belt are sufficient.

I don't really think it's worth addressing a lack of missing disjoints while also delivering ridiculous projectile damage and pressure as well. They offer huge advantage in 1v1 and are worth scrambling about for, can single-handedly decide a match with only minimum player skill level. I always felt this was why items never took off.

Edit: Good point on soccer ball though. It's not even that helpful, but definitely pretty ridiculous and random. My mindset was ideal usage of it but i didn't weight it against the possibility of it hindering. Not really worth it.

 

[Terotrous]

I definitely think Bullet Bill is too strong to be allowed. It kills absurdly low.

It's also worth noting that the Ore Club's smash attacks have armor. I also think Killer Eye may be too strong, even though it can be knocked over. Gust Bellows is literally the most OP item in the entire game (it's like 5 free kills in FFA every time you pick it up), so I'm glad to see you recognized that item had to go.


I still think the game is way more interesting with items off, though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Doesn't it get kills in FFA because people aren't focused on you and extend themselves in the air against other players to get gimped? Haven't been able to test just theorizing here.

 

[Terotrous]

Doesn't it get kills in FFA because people aren't focused on you and extend themselves in the air against other players to get gimped? Haven't been able to test just theorizing here.

Not really. Almost no characters can survive a stream of wind, it pushes you off stage and prevents you from coming back with virtually zero effort from the person using the item. The reason it can get so many kills is that it lasts a long time and you can push everyone off at once.

 

[DunnoBro]

Not really. Almost no characters can survive a stream of wind, it pushes you off stage and prevents you from coming back with virtually zero effort from the person using the item. The reason it can get so many kills is that it lasts a long time and you can push everyone off at once.

Alright, i guess the few times I've used it I did it wrong then. So nix that.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Parasol was brought back iirc. http://www.ign.com/wikis/super-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/Items
Pretty sure I saw it but can't check atm

Well from turning on the game and looking I don't see it anywhere.

And for the most part, items in general have "literally no reason not to be grabbed and no real counter" so I'm not sure your argument against super leaf and rocket belt are sufficient.

Any time an item is thrown, you can catch it, dodge it, avoid it, etc. Most items have some way you can just plain not get hit by them, which is a "counter" of sorts. When I mentioned counters in the OP I wanted to make sure every character had a universal way of dealing with an item, which most items do have. Bludgeon items also tend to have a decent cool down, so if you go to just swing them at somebody and miss you're going to get punished pretty hard.

I don't really think it's worth addressing a lack of missing disjoints while also delivering ridiculous projectile damage and pressure as well. They offer huge advantage in 1v1 and are worth scrambling about for, can single-handedly decide a match with only minimum player skill level. I always felt this was why items never took off.

Any item can show up at any time and have an influence on the match. The randomness of that is why most competitive players are turned off by items. Some randomness in an inherent part of ISP. It doesn't mean it is not competitive, many other competitive games have random elements. People just don't prefer it in our scene. Most of these items don't really give that much damage as a projectile nor do that much knockback unless you are already highly damaged (the most dangerous one in the Home-Run Bat is banned). So an item spawn COULD decide a match. But playing with items on this is something you can expect. The best we can do is keep the items toned down to a reasonable level and not let any crazy OP ones into the mix.

I definitely think Bullet Bill is too strong to be allowed. It kills absurdly low.

It's also worth noting that the Ore Club's smash attacks have armor. I also think Killer Eye may be too strong, even though it can be knocked over.

I thought because if it missed it was such a free punish it might not be too bad but you may be right. Let me test kill percents on that and if Bullet Bill is going to far I can move it. For Ore Club it does have armor but if you shield it the punishes tend to come really free. I was iffy on it slightly though so I'll keep a close eye on it. Killer Eye was also on my watch list. I haven't gotten to play too many matches yet, just a solid night of gaming with it. Maybe I can host an /r/smashbros tournament with it this on a spare day and get more feedback

I still think the game is way more interesting with items off, though.

Which is totally cool. I liked using ISP in Brawl sometimes for the variety. I can personally say I don't want them on all the time but on occasion I enjoy them. I do know there are folks out there who are especially interested in them though, so I figured I'd put the work in for them here.

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah, I used to play with items on, at least when we did FFAs. It's definitely possible to create a list that doesn't totally break the game and I think you're pretty much on the right track.

Personally, I would also definitely turn on Pokeballs (while it can be really strong, it's also one of the funnest of all items), and I think that the special flag might maybe be workable. It's certainly one of the more interesting items, even though it can be really strong. ATs, while also kind of cool, likely have to stay off, almost all of them are super powerful.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Personally, I would also definitely turn on Pokeballs (while it can be really strong, it's also one of the funnest of all items), and I think that the special flag might maybe be workable. It's certainly one of the more interesting items, even though it can be really strong. ATs, while also kind of cool, likely have to stay off, almost all of them are super powerful.

Pokeballs really are fun, but they really are too strong for what this ruleset aims for. An entire stock with Special Flag is just crazy difficult. It really does take a long time to charge but getting one off would swing the match like crazy.

 

[Terotrous]

Pokeballs really are fun, but they really are too strong for what this ruleset aims for. An entire stock with Special Flag is just crazy difficult. It really does take a long time to charge but getting one off would swing the match like crazy.

What about FFA? One point isn't that big of a deal there.

 

[LiteralGrill]

What about FFA? One point isn't that big of a deal there.

In FFA? It may not be as big a deal. i was more focusing on 1v1 here, I hadn't thought of making one of these more for FFA.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think the smash ball should be banned because it promotes running away. i mean, if i am sonic vs an ike that go an smash ball, ike needs to get close. i'd just ran away until i could get an item and get the ball out from far. i think this is bad

 

[LiteralGrill]

i think the smash ball should be banned because it promotes running away. i mean, if i am sonic vs an ike that go an smash ball, ike needs to get close. i'd just ran away until i could get an item and get the ball out from far. i think this is bad

I did note that it honestly breaks the criteria. I just also recognize a lot of people would want this to be the only item on if any really were on as well. I personally don't recommend it but I wont stop people from trying.

 

[John12346]

I'd like to mention that the Back Shield is kind of cruddy for items matches simply because it can protect the wearer from attacks from the FRONT sometimes if the move is large/close enough to reach the wearer's back. It's kinda randomish.

Edit: Also Daybreak isn't on this list. I think it's a good fit for ISP considering it has to be collected AND it has an inherent risk/reward deal going on.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd like to mention that the Back Shield is kind of cruddy for items matches simply because it can protect the wearer from attacks from the FRONT sometimes if the move is large/close enough to reach the wearer's back. It's kinda randomish.

Edit: Also Daybreak isn't on this list. I think it's a good fit for ISP considering it has to be collected AND it has an inherent risk/reward deal going on.

Daybreak is actually on the list! It is very difficult to get all of the pieces for it, and players can knock them out of people true, but whoever gets the item just has such a strong weapon in their hands I was worrried it would be too powerful.

I did not know this about back shield, so I'll probably have to test it out a bit. It may very well be worth removing for that reason, total (accidental) invincibility from being hit in some ways just isn't fair.

Since it was noted earlier, on Bullet Bill Villager can pocket him and get all of the benefits of him without having restricted moves. That feels like it's unfair, and since it also kills early I plan to move it to the banned section.

Also on the note of Villager, he can pocket the warp star and then use it as a strong recovery tool off stage. I'm not sure this is broken and degenerate enough to ban it entirely, but I just wanted to mention it here.

(Thanks to @ Kalierdarke for those.)

 

[Kofu]

It'sworth noting that Pocketed items only last for 30 seconds before disappearing. For most items he can use the move again to take out the item to reset the timer. This works for the Bullet Bill but not the Warp Star. In some matchups he's going to want to have his Pocket open anyway for opposing projectiles.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It'sworth noting that Pocketed items only last for 30 seconds before disappearing. For most items he can use the move again to take out the item to reset the timer. This works for the Bullet Bill but not the Warp Star. In some matchups he's going to want to have his Pocket open anyway for opposing projectiles.

That point on the Warp Star is excellent. If he can only keep it so long that's much better. Being able to refresh Bullet bill though makes it more worrisome too. thanks for the info :D

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sorry for the double post, but I needed to list some changes.

First, Sandbag and Motion-Sensor Bomb have been moved to the ban list. They both can have an effect when being hit on spawn which breaks criteris. Mr. Saturn can also do things when hit on spawn, which I am concerned about but not nearly as much as the most it does is get hit an eat an attack unlike the bomb which can explode and Sandbag which can drop out more items and is big enough to block most attacks. Still, Mr. Saturn is on the worry list.

Back Shield did turn out to eat attacks that came from the front as well, so I moved that to the ban area as well.

 

[Kalierdarke]

While I do somewhat agree with your reasoning of having the super leaf in the banned section, I also don't think it's that big a deal, as Peach has the exact same effect by default. In most cases, having access to a hover is not going to help you recover better, as you're going to be KOd without recovery, or hit below the stage where horizontal recovery doesn't matter as much.

The only character it would have a major impact on recovery for is Little Mac, as all of the others have good enough recoveries to make it back easily without interference. In most cases it will have a bigger impact on offensive options than on recovery options.

 

[LiteralGrill]

While I do somewhat agree with your reasoning of having the super leaf in the banned section, I also don't think it's that big a deal, as Peach has the exact same effect by default. In most cases, having access to a hover is not going to help you recover better, as you're going to be KOd without recovery, or hit below the stage where horizontal recovery doesn't matter as much.

The only character it would have a major impact on recovery for is Little Mac, as all of the others have good enough recoveries to make it back easily without interference. In most cases it will have a bigger impact on offensive options than on recovery options.

I'm not sure it's just above recovery, it does present characters with new attack options as well. I don't think there is a technical counter to it either, and that's been a big part of what made ISP work in the past.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I'm not sure it's just above recovery, it does present characters with new attack options as well. I don't think there is a technical counter to it either, and that's been a big part of what made ISP work in the past.

True enough. I can see good reasons for it being banned and also not being banned. I do think it deserves some heavy testing just to see which side it deserves to be on, but until then I agree it should sit in banned, just in case. As I said, Peach has been able to do that since melee, so it's not like people can't deal with it, but there hasn't been enough testing to see if any character can heavily abuse being able to perform easy aerials without dealing with landing lag.