Item Standard Play Ruleset

[Kofu]

That point on the Warp Star is excellent. If he can only keep it so long that's much better. Being able to refresh Bullet bill though makes it more worrisome too. thanks for the info :D

I'm assuming you understood this, but to be more specific, he can Pocket the Warp Star when it's on the ground, but he uses it immediately when he pulls it out. The Bullet Bill requires him to use an input after picking it up, which is why he can refresh it.

Also, in case you didn't know, if Villager has a Pocketed item and is already holding another, using Pocket switches the two (the one he was holding goes into the pocket, and the one in reserve goes to his hand). Not sure what happens if he has a standard projectile Pocketed (I assume he uses it like normal since he doesn't have to hold anything else).

 

[popsofctown]

Doesn't Super Leaf make you lose the ability to fastfall? or is that just jetpack? Downsides are good.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm assuming you understood this, but to be more specific, he can Pocket the Warp Star when it's on the ground, but he uses it immediately when he pulls it out. The Bullet Bill requires him to use an input after picking it up, which is why he can refresh it.

I did understand that. Him having to have a limited time to use the Warp Star is good. I have a feeling ISP and Villager are going to come together in discussion a LOT. (Maybe even Rosalina and Olimar).

Also, in case you didn't know, if Villager has a Pocketed item and is already holding another, using Pocket switches the two (the one he was holding goes into the pocket, and the one in reserve goes to his hand). Not sure what happens if he has a standard projectile Pocketed (I assume he uses it like normal since he doesn't have to hold anything else).

I'll have to mess around with him pocketing other items to see how they go and what he might be able to do with them. Just go through each one and see how it reacts.

Doesn't Super Leaf make you lose the ability to fastfall? or is that just jetpack? Downsides are good.

I need to test that! If that's the case these items may have a worthwhile weakness to counter them in the strength you get getting them in the risk/reward category.

 

[popsofctown]

I play lots of Smash Run and remember inability to fastfall or some other clunkiness when i pick mobility items up.

 

[DiscoCokkroach]

Wait, is the Parasol not in Smash 4? I don't see it anywhere on the item list

 

[LiteralGrill]

Wait, is the Parasol not in Smash 4? I don't see it anywhere on the item list

No it's not in Smash 4.

 

[DiscoCokkroach]

No it's not in Smash 4.

Wow, very interesting design choice. I can see why it was removed, though, what with the new SMB3 Raccoon Leaf taking it's place as the "gives you more horizontal recovery" item.

However, it was a much more balanced item compared to the Raccoon Leaf, since...

A) It could be knocked out of your hands
B) You gave up your jab, ftilt, dashing attack, and fsmash by holding it, and the attacks it gave you weren't the best
C) As a throwable item, it was bad because it's trajectory would stop a few feet after it left your hands, even with a smash throw

And you had to trade/risk/whatever ALL of that for the upgraded horizontal recovery. Raccoon Leaf? Just pick it up and mash jump, no worries. I do like the leaf a lot (I've played a ton of SMB3), but as a balanced item? Eh, not so much.

Now, to discuss something a bit more relevant: Have people been trying rulesets that allow the Smash Ball? I'd really like to see just how much it effects match outcomes. In fact, I have a group I play with on Fridays that might be open to trying ISP (it's mostly casual/non-competitive players), if you want me to test stuff out.

Actually, I have a bit of a crazy idea for ISP that allow Smash Balls (and maybe for ISP rulesets in general): What about using Time matches? It might solve issues of SBs being unbalanced by giving players more leeway when they get KO'd by a Final Smash at lower percents. In Stock matches, it's very difficult to mount comebacks in general. With Time matches, the idea is more, "Hey, I still got X left on the clock, maybe I can still win." The idea most definitely needs testing to see if it's a viable option for 1v1/2v2 matches, but I think it might have some merit.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Smash Balls really depend on which characters are in the battle. if people are using, say, Robin, Villager, etc.., the final smash is probably fatal if it connects, but easy to avoid. On the other hand, Fox, Bowser Jr, pac-man, etc.., the final smash is much harder to avoid, and will almost always get a KO if it is used.

But really, you have to worry about your opponent still while you try and get the smash ball, so it's relatively easy to punish them if they try and ignore you to go get it. On top of that, it doesn't seem to want to spawn very often. And you have to remember there's a risk of getting it knocked away from you if you try and save it for when the opponent has a fresh stock to maximize its effectiveness, as if you use it at higher %s they would be just as likely to get KOd by a beam saber. Really, it's a flashy KO that requires some effort to use.

I personally prefer a "If both players agree to it, use it" rule after characters are selected. This keeps people from whining that the only reason they lost is because the opponent picked someone with a hard to avoid FS.

And when you think about it, they really aren't much different than someone using Dark Phoenix on UMVC3.


As a side note I do believe you can still knock the leaf out of someone once they pick it up, as I recall seeing it happen once. Won't happen often though if that is correct.

 

[Nu-13]

The list is looking interesting. There's some items I think are being banned a little early but that's more philosophy differences. Warp star has historically been powerful but manageable. (It may be less balanced now though) The main challenge I've run into is advertising item events well.

The main thing with smash 4 with beamsword wars (that's the event series I run) that I'm working on is the new tournament format so the item switch is more specific than what I've got around to working out so far. If there's any isp events in the area I'll try to attend. Because beamsword wars may be implementing swiss format, coming up with a rating system and a rating conversion formula (for compatibility with other tournaments) is something I'd like to tackle at some point. I certainly think ISP results should be allowed to be imported to a player's rating for beamsword wars. I really hope ISP is successful and will certainly look at this thread quite a bit when I start the ruleset experimentation.

 

[LiteralGrill]

well @ N Nu-13 I'm glad you like the project. I've seriously considered hosting an online items tournament with these rules in the future once we have some time. Hopefully people like it enough to come. I'd love to hear more about the items events you've been running.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Doesn't Super Leaf make you lose the ability to fastfall? or is that just jetpack? Downsides are good.

I forgot to ever get back to you on this, you can still fastfall it seems. Sadness...

 

[MissingNumbers]

I forgot to ever get back to you on this, you can still fastfall it seems. Sadness...

On the other hand, it can drop off if you're smacked hard enough, a la the currently-legal Franklin Badge.

 

[Machii]

Why not allow only items that cannot be thrown. Since thats all those items are good for anyway. Just allow items like Smash Orb, Jetpack, Mushrooms, Samus Ball, etc. They'll allow a different dynamic and secondary objectives without cluttering the technical play. Remember that items also interrupt A attacks while being picked up, effectively creating uneven terrain. The less laying around the better, IMO

 

[LiteralGrill]

On the other hand, it can drop off if you're smacked hard enough, a la the currently-legal Franklin Badge.

You raise a pretty darn good point. Let me hit the lab and see more on how these items work a bit more.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I hate to double post... But I've been considering running an online ISP tournament, think anyone would come out to play?

 

[Lavani]

I meant to post this forever ago about Super Leaf and completely forgot, and honestly it'd be extremely rare that this ever managed to happen anyway, but it has some glitches that can burn a lot of time off the clock.

 

[Rajikaru]

I meant to post this forever ago about Super Leaf and completely forgot, and honestly it'd be extremely rare that this ever managed to happen anyway, but it has some glitches that can burn a lot of time off the clock.

It's honestly not hard to pull off (you just have to be floating as Bowser and perform a side-b mid-flight), I could see it being exploited by Bowser players.

 

[Lavani]

It's honestly not hard to pull off (you just have to be floating as Bowser and perform a side-b mid-flight), I could see it being exploited by Bowser players.

Not hard in the sense that Bowser with the item just has to do a floating sideB, I meant more that "the item has to spawn, Bowser has to get the leaf, then he has to manage the grab while doing a float, and then to really run the clock down he has to have the percent lead so he can take the opponent offstage". Lots of variables and a small grabbox on the attack in question make me think it's less likely to happen in legitimate play, though "extremely rare" was likely an exaggeration on my part.

 

[LiteralGrill]

On the other hand, it can drop off if you're smacked hard enough, a la the currently-legal Franklin Badge.

You are correct, I've updated the OP to place them as legal again for that reason.

AN ONLINE ISP TOURNAMENT!​

That's right, an actual opportunity to try out the ruleset. any items fans or those just curious should come and play!

 

[Kalierdarke]

Not hard in the sense that Bowser with the item just has to do a floating sideB, I meant more that "the item has to spawn, Bowser has to get the leaf, then he has to manage the grab while doing a float, and then to really run the clock down he has to have the percent lead so he can take the opponent offstage". Lots of variables and a small grabbox on the attack in question make me think it's less likely to happen in legitimate play, though "extremely rare" was likely an exaggeration on my part.

At least in favor of the leaf, stalling techniques generally result in a DQ so a bower using the leaf to run down the clock in this way would cause them to lose.

 

[Piford]

So I played in the online tourney and wanted to give my thoughts on items. They are much better than most people give them credit for. The items allow in the tourney are definitely fair, in fact, I found them almost too fair. Almost very time I picked up an item I regretted it because I lost so many options while holding them. I think it would've been better if it wasn't for lag because getting rid of an item was too much of an commitment at some times, and I didn't want to throw the item at my opponent because they might catch it. I do think items do present some cool offensive options, as it makes jump-cancel glide toss an option for every character.

Even if the community would be willing to accept them, I still probably wouldn't want them legal in tournaments (outside of side events or events like this) just because I felt like it wasn't as fun as without items. I figure most of the fun I had playing with items were when pokeballs and smashballs came up everything got insane. Also it would require every tournament to be at least swiss, but preferably round robin as you can't a lucky spawn determine the winner of a tournament.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Yeah, that's the big problem with items. the ones that are really enjoyable are also the ones that disrupt gameplay too much(pokeballs and ATs for example). And what hurts so much, is only a handful of the ATs or pokemon are disruptive. But it's those few that slap a "nope" stamp on them.

Mind you, I do still enjoy items.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Oh yeah! I forgot to get back in here and discuss the results and some of the stuff discussed from the online ISP tournament!

One of the most mentioned items was the Super Scope. You don't need to really fully charge it to get the gun to have some serious kill power, most people seemed to get it to a bit near half charge and were using it quite powerfully. I'm not sure if it should be put into the "overpowered" kind of ban, since it's a powerful tool to just shoot rapidly as well and you can move while shooting. I'd love to hear thoughts about it.

I was expecting a lot of things about Ore Club and it was one of the most worrisome items legal but didn't really hear much for issues. I'd love to see more people's thoughts on it as well.

Other then that, I might consider doing something else like that in an online setting in the future, so keep an eye out if you are a fan of items or just want to try it out!

 

[Kalierdarke]

The Ore Club can KO at somewhat low %s, but you have to charge the smash up and hit them with the club itself. the tornado is a nuisance and good at piling up damage, but can be easily avoided. the delay on a swing means that it's pretty easy to punish. In general it's often better to just throw it if you aren't edge guarding, or fire a tornado from across stage and chase behind it to catch the dodge.

The super scope I would kind of agree on, it maintains its kill power in Smash 4, which is a slight problem when everything else has been scaled to kill at higher %s, but most of its strength is just the rapidfire. It's a bit easier to avoid, honestly, than samus's charge shot because you can't hold the charge. At this time I don't feel it needs to be banned, but it should continue to be watched, as long as it doesn't become a huge problem.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Thanks for the feedback @ Kalierdarke

I forgot something else to mention too which makes me feel like an idiot. A lot of people suggested actually setting the spawn setting on the game to Medium as the items on low come so infrequently it's difficult to use them to mitigate your opponent getting an item earlier (it seems the low setting in Smash 4 might be all too low). I'd love to see what people thought on that as well!

 

[Piford]

Thanks for the feedback @ Kalierdarke

I forgot something else to mention too which makes me feel like an idiot. A lot of people suggested actually setting the spawn setting on the game to Medium as the items on low come so infrequently it's difficult to use them to mitigate your opponent getting an item earlier (it seems the low setting in Smash 4 might be all too low). I'd love to see what people thought on that as well!

Low was definitely too low. The more chances items fall, the more likely it is to balance out luck in the long run. With low, if a good item spawns next to my opponent I'm screwed, but with medium there's much more of a chance that for a good item to spawn next to both of us.

 

[I_Fight_For_My_Friends]

My opinion on items is mixed. Sometimes, I like the randomness that it adds, but most of the time, I just want to play a good old fashion game on a legal stage with no items.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but the ore club has super armor during some of the attack. I think during the swing.
It may be laggy but not always punishable.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

This looks like this could be used as a fun side tournament for those that want a more casual experience.

And I am with those that think the Smash Ball should be allowed for as long as both players agree to using it.

 

[Kalierdarke]

This looks like this could be used as a fun side tournament for those that want a more casual experience.

And I am with those that think the Smash Ball should be allowed for as long as both players agree to using it.

Items can be just as competitive as no items, it just requires quite a lot more balancing on what is and isn't used. Just remember, items were originally only banned because in melee, you could not disable exploding containers, and people just got used to them being banned.

I sort of agree, item play should not really replace standard tournaments, but they also shouldn't be dropped off to a side event, just as Customs should have their own spot and not be a side event. Chances are, you'll end up getting more people interested in tournaments, as you'll appeal to a larger crowd.

 

[Sleek Media]

I can understand not wanting Heart or Smash Ball, but Green Shell and the various Bombs? What's the point of only having items that can't turn a match around? You're mistaken if you think flying the banner of "skillz" will make it easier to advance item play. Embrace the craziness and you'll get more players like me who aren't interested in half measures.

 

[thehard]

I can understand not wanting Heart or Smash Ball, but Green Shell and the various Bombs? What's the point of only having items that can't turn a match around? You're mistaken if you think flying the banner of "skillz" will make it easier to advance item play. Embrace the craziness and you'll get more players like me who aren't interested in half measures.

I mostly agree with this. I think ISP could afford to let loose with some items.

 

[digiholic]

Explosives are bad because they can cause a non-counterable death sentence. Suppose, for example, that you are Marth. You've just landed a fully charged shield breaker on your opponent, and they are completely vulnerable. You line yourself up perfectly for a tipper and charge your Fsmash. However, while charging, a Bob-Omb spawns just between you two.

You can't stop charging without attacking, you can't re-position yourself to avoid the hit, your only option is death. You hit the bomb, the opponent takes the explosion instead of the much-more-damaging tipper Fsmash, you both fly off in different directions, and, depeding on percentage, you are potentially killed for shield-breaking your opponent.

Green Shell and the bombs are removed because of the same reason, they can interrupt play without either player having to actually use them. All of the allowed items require the players to intend to use them. A sudden Beam Sword spawning will not affect the current state of the game. Everything currently happening will continue to happening, and it's position might affect future game states, but the current state of the game is not in jeopardy. A bomb of any kind or a shell spawning can affect the current game state, well after any player can possibly alter their gameplay around it.

TL;DR:
Beam Sword spawning, both players analyzing the game state, deciding on positional advantages and deciding to go for it or maintain position = interesting technical play

Bob-Omb spawning, killing someone instantly with no intention or planning on either player's part = not a test of player's adaptability, victory by lottery

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't care if an unlucky bob-omb spawn is often deadly. It's funny and interesting. You will never make items tournament standard, so trying to achieve some kind of "balance" is pointless. The people who want to play with items want crazy. Crazy is not watching a sheik out-skill a diddy with a beam sword. Crazy is getting 3-stocked in a 2-stock match because everything possible was horrible and hilarious.

 

[digiholic]

I don't care if an unlucky bob-omb spawn is often deadly. It's funny and interesting. You will never make items tournament standard, so trying to achieve some kind of "balance" is pointless. The people who want to play with items want crazy. Crazy is not watching a sheik out-skill a diddy with a beam sword. Crazy is getting 3-stocked in a 2-stock match because everything possible was horrible and hilarious.

That's not what this project is about. This project is about making a competitive item set. No one will want to play in a tournament that isn't competitive. Would you put $20 into entering a tournament that you know you could very well lose due to random happenstance? It won't matter how flashy and hilarious a bob-omb death is if there's no one playing the game to have one.

Compare Chess and Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can watch Chess. You can see the wheels turning in the player's heads. There's drama, there's intensity, there's intrigue. You as a viewer are wondering how they're going to adapt to this new situation, and they'll either succeed or fail. It has a narrative in every move. This is a competitive game. Contrast Rock-Paper-Scissors. Sure there's some strategy, but at a sufficiently high level, games are decided by random chance. There's no narrative, there's no drama, it just happens, then it's over. A player can say "I shoulda picked rock" and we'd know with absolute certainty how that would have played out. In Chess, you can say "I should have traded my Queen for that Rook." and you still woudln't know if that would make a difference.

With non-committal, zero-counterplay items, you can have situations of "I would have won if there wasn't a bob-omb." and know at times that that's an absolute irrefutable truth. However, "I would have won if he didn't go for the beam sword" is not 100%. There's counterplay to the items that are legal. None of them are single-handedly a game decider.

You say you want crazy, I counter you with "you want interesting". Bob-Ombs and other non-committal items can have interesting situations, but they can also remove interesting situations, and they are just as likely to do either. If you were to watch a tournament of highly skilled, highly trained players in both item sets, I can almost guarantee that you would enjoy the smaller list more, whatever you may think you want. If you want complete and utter chaos, why not watch a match where the characters are controlled by a random number generator? RNG comes up 1, player 1 inputs a forward smash. RNG comes up 17, player 2 does a dash-grab. It would be boring. Things would just happen with no rhyme or reason, and there's not a satisfying narrative there.

 

[popsofctown]

The logic for banning the point flag seems inadequate. Yeah, it's an inverse OHKO, but it's possible for a risk to meet that kind of reward, and I think the risk can in Smash 4. I can backthrow fair at 0 as Mario and go for a footstool after, but that doesn't mean it's not so risky I don't try it.
Many characters get custom moves that can help them be sure they can threaten the flag, like Fast Fireball or Wizard's Foot. That becomes part of the strategy, to what extent are you willing to change your character choice or character's moves to guarantee you can threaten the point flag? Whatabout in this matchup, or that matchup? To me it seems like the flag should be legal.

Then again I'm not gonna play this stuff anyway so maybe I'm not the target market. I'd rather play with equipment before this.

 

[Sleek Media]

That's not what this project is about. This project is about making a competitive item set. No one will want to play in a tournament that isn't competitive. Would you put $20 into entering a tournament that you know you could very well lose due to random happenstance? It won't matter how flashy and hilarious a bob-omb death is if there's no one playing the game to have one.

Compare Chess and Rock-Paper-Scissors. You can watch Chess. You can see the wheels turning in the player's heads. There's drama, there's intensity, there's intrigue. You as a viewer are wondering how they're going to adapt to this new situation, and they'll either succeed or fail. It has a narrative in every move. This is a competitive game. Contrast Rock-Paper-Scissors. Sure there's some strategy, but at a sufficiently high level, games are decided by random chance. There's no narrative, there's no drama, it just happens, then it's over. A player can say "I shoulda picked rock" and we'd know with absolute certainty how that would have played out. In Chess, you can say "I should have traded my Queen for that Rook." and you still woudln't know if that would make a difference.

With non-committal, zero-counterplay items, you can have situations of "I would have won if there wasn't a bob-omb." and know at times that that's an absolute irrefutable truth. However, "I would have won if he didn't go for the beam sword" is not 100%. There's counterplay to the items that are legal. None of them are single-handedly a game decider.

You say you want crazy, I counter you with "you want interesting". Bob-Ombs and other non-committal items can have interesting situations, but they can also remove interesting situations, and they are just as likely to do either. If you were to watch a tournament of highly skilled, highly trained players in both item sets, I can almost guarantee that you would enjoy the smaller list more, whatever you may think you want. If you want complete and utter chaos, why not watch a match where the characters are controlled by a random number generator? RNG comes up 1, player 1 inputs a forward smash. RNG comes up 17, player 2 does a dash-grab. It would be boring. Things would just happen with no rhyme or reason, and there's not a satisfying narrative there.

Remember all the competitive item tournaments that were based off the Brawl version of this project? How many people entered those again?

Oh.

 

[digiholic]

The logic for banning the point flag seems inadequate. Yeah, it's an inverse OHKO, but it's possible for a risk to meet that kind of reward, and I think the risk can in Smash 4. I can backthrow fair at 0 as Mario and go for a footstool after, but that doesn't mean it's not so risky I don't try it.
Many characters get custom moves that can help them be sure they can threaten the flag, like Fast Fireball or Wizard's Foot. That becomes part of the strategy, to what extent are you willing to change your character choice or character's moves to guarantee you can threaten the point flag? Whatabout in this matchup, or that matchup? To me it seems like the flag should be legal.

Then again I'm not gonna play this stuff anyway so maybe I'm not the target market. I'd rather play with equipment before this.

I think the problem with the flag isn't that the flag is overpowered, it's that the flag is basically poison and no one in a decently close match would ever even go near it for fear of accidentally picking it up and giving the opponent a free hit. It's too risky.

Remember all the competitive item tournaments that were based off the Brawl version of this project? How many people entered those again?

Oh.

Brawl didn't have online tournaments for people to try it out. Also, I'm pretty sure the reason people didn't enter the tournaments because they disliked the idea of items entirely, and adding in zero-counterplay items would make even less people willing to give it a try. That's pretty much exactly my point in the above post (which I'm not entirely sure you read all of, since you're only responding to the first paragraph.)

 

[popsofctown]

(Special Flag) This item is much too powerful. While it takes a long time to complete, gaining an entire stock in a match is simply too unbalanced, so this item must be banned in ISP.

 

[digiholic]

(Special Flag) This item is much too powerful. While it takes a long time to complete, gaining an entire stock in a match is simply too unbalanced, so this item must be banned in ISP.

Huh. Nevermind then. I always found the thing to be a death sentence, honestly.