Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

[Scoliosis Jones]

I really don't see how Isaac and Shulk are competing with one another.

One uses a sword, the other can use Magic. Two completely different movesets.

Sakurai being a personal fan doesn't matter, because if that's a bad thing or Shulk, then it's just as bad for Isaac. Sakurai didn't see Isaac being worthy of a playable role in Brawl, and it doesn't seem like anything has drastically changed in Isaac's side of things either.

Your argument against Shulk is very clearly biased if you ask me. Isaac isn't much better if that's how you're going to look at it. Really, X not having Shulk hardly matters. It's basically like Fire Emblem. Shulk is the Marth of the series. X is retaining similar gameplay to Xenoblade, so it's at the very least a spiritual successor.

Sakurai also acknowledged the Monado at the concert he was at, which he thought was pretty cool if I remember that Tweet correctly. I don't think a legacy has much to do with anything if you really think about it. Olimar got in after 2 games. Roy got in before he even had one. Legacy hardly matters. What matters now is being unique. Both Isaac and Shulk can be unique.

 

[N3ON]

Again, why do people think there is some imaginary criteria that you need forty trillion games in order to be even considered.

No, you don't need multiple games in a series to be considered, but considering with the exception of retros Sakurai has gone for the relatively biggest (feasible) series so far, it's just that most one-shot series can't really match series that have had a few games to their name in terms of impact or audience size. More than one game obviously isn't a prerequisite, I agree, but it's probably a benefit.

Personally I feel legacy will win out over promotion, at least for Sakurai. I want both of them but if it comes down to it I think Isaac would claim the spot.

When has promotion ever won out for Sakurai? (And not Sakurai + other developer, just Sakurai).

 

[jaytalks]

No one said anything about forty trillion games, but having more than one surely helps a character stand out.

As far as roster selection goes, we can surmise that characters need to meet some combination of criteria.
1) Are they a major Nintendo character or represent a significant part of Nintendo history?
2) Is Sakurai a personal fan (or friends with that character's creator)?
3) Is the character unique or interesting in its own right?

How does Shulk fare?
1) Shulk's the star of a single, moderately successful game that's most notable in the North American market for being a pain to get. He doesn't have a legacy yet. Xenoblade's a cult success and Nintendo's clearly trying to build on it with X, but who knows if there was anything about the game that stood out to Sakurai when he was building the roster.
2) Probably not, which works against point 3.
3) Maybe? But if Sakurai's not a fan, he might not see what makes the character special and unique.

Could Shulk make it in? Maybe, but his lack of a legacy may prevent him from standing out.

No, you don't need multiple games in a series to be considered, but considering with the exception of retros Sakurai has gone for the relatively biggest (feasible) series so far, it's just that most one-shot series can't really match series that have had a few games to their name in terms of impact or audience size. More than one game obviously isn't a prerequisite, I agree, but it's probably a benefit.



When has promotion ever won out for Sakurai? (And not Sakurai + other developer, just Sakurai).

These are very good points. There's a reason why we talk about series in Smash, as opposed what games characters are from. Aside from the retro additions (who are retro precisely because they aren't series), every character in Smash is from a series. Xenoblade currently isnt a series right now. It's not connected in anyway to the previous Xeno games (which Nintendo has no claim to) and it isn't official tied to X yet (I hope Nintendo announces this soon). I hope it becomes a series, but for right now it's not. And that hurts Shulk's chances. It doesn't nullify them, but it does hurt them.

I do think there is an upper limit to how many swordfighters you can have in the game overall. It's not about creativity or movesets. Or whether the character stands out. It's about what I think Sakurai will do, and just how he operates. It's hard to explain. I almost want to say it's balance, but it's a bit more complex than that. I'm not sure what this limit is, but I would not expect to see more than two swordfighters. If we were to get an FE newcomer with a sword as well as Ike, I imagine that Isaac and Shulk compete against each other because of that last spot.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

No one said anything about forty trillion games, but having more than one surely helps a character stand out.

As far as roster selection goes, we can surmise that characters need to meet some combination of criteria.
1) Are they a major Nintendo character or represent a significant part of Nintendo history?
2) Is Sakurai a personal fan (or friends with that character's creator)?
3) Is the character unique or interesting in its own right?

1.) Wolf
2.) Villager
3.) Young Link

There are no rules other than being a video game character

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There are no rules other than being a video game character

Master Chief confirmed.

 

[Arteen]

1.) Wolf
2.) Villager
3.) Young Link

There are no rules other than being a video game character

There are no rules, but Sakurai has his own biases and preferences, and it's ultimately his call.

Wolf got in because Sakurai liked Wolf. Supposedly Sakurai wanted Wolf in Melee instead of Falco, but went with Falco because he had a more distinct appearance. Regardless, Wolf is an additional character to the already-represented Star Fox series, so he's not in the same position as Isaac or Shulk.

Villager meets all of the criteria. The Animal Crossing games are huge. AC even got a stage in Brawl and only missed the roster that time because Sakurai couldn't come up with a good moveset for him.

Young Link, like Wolf, is an additional character in an already-represented franchise. I also suspect Sakurai's a fan of the younger Link.

As far as Shulk vs Isaac goes, I'll admit I'm biased because I love the Golden Sun games, but I'm not confident in his chances either.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Master Chief confirmed.

geno holding bandana dee confirmed

 

[FlareHabanero]

No one said anything about forty trillion games, but having more than one surely helps a character stand out.

No, I'm pretty sure a character stands out from a character standing out.

It's not about the numbers, it's about the style. If you have the charisma, the audacity, the tenacity, you've got the most golden thing. The desire to pick up and play. We simply don't play as pie graphs, we play as characters we would want.

Sakurai being a personal fan doesn't matter, because if that's a bad thing or Shulk, then it's just as bad for Isaac. Sakurai didn't see Isaac being worthy of a playable role in Brawl, and it doesn't seem like anything has drastically changed in Isaac's side of things either.

It's a trade up, but basically the same situation.

Less competition, but less relevance and shrinking fanbase (especially in Japan).

 

[Raetah]

I do think there is an upper limit to how many swordfighters you can have in the game overall. It's not about creativity or movesets. Or whether the character stands out. It's about what I think Sakurai will do, and just how he operates. It's hard to explain. I almost want to say it's balance, but it's a bit more complex than that. I'm not sure what this limit is, but I would not expect to see more than two swordfighters. If we were to get an FE newcomer with a sword as well as Ike, I imagine that Isaac and Shulk compete against each other because of that last spot.

Melee have 4 Swordmans: Link, Young Link, Marth, Roy. Brawl have 6: Link, Toon Link (replacing YLink), Marth, Ike (replacing Roy), Metaknight and Pit (with that double sword-magic bow). 4 of Brawl Swordmans are already confirmed, Metaknight is not confirmed but he is going to be in the game. So basically we are going to have another Fire Emblem character replacing Ike. But actually, I think that more than 6 characters are possible. Rosalina proof that they dont care to add even more characters to already well-represented series, So I can see characters like Ghirahim or Demise or Toon Ganondorf being part of the game. We maybe see Fire Emblem with 3 characters and Masked Man being included. Random.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I see Isaac as a character that mostly would focus on his Psynergy attacks, not so much his sword. I don't see how this is something that holds anything back against him...

 

[N3ON]

People really shouldn't assume Sakurai's opinion over series he's never specifically commented on, including GS and Xenoblade.

No, I'm pretty sure a character stands out from a character standing out.

It's not about the numbers, it's about the style. If you have the charisma, the audacity, the tenacity, you've got the most golden thing. The desire to pick up and play. We simply don't play as pie graphs, we play as characters we would want.

Yes, that is all important, but companies usually don't bother making follow-ups to games that don't evoke a desire-to-pick-up-and-play response from at least a commercially viable chunk of people. If a series does have a lot of games to its name, chances are it is a stand-out series, or at very least some of its titles have been, whether a standalone game... that could go either way. A company isn't going to continue pushing a product that can't gain traction, they push games people want, and if the characters in said game remain largely unchanged, or can hold on to their enduring popularity, evidently people want those characters too. Obviously a game with multiple titles has an install base acceptable enough by the company's standards to have even got it that far, and characters/series with comparatively larger install bases are going to stand out to more people.

One could claim their series has the essential qualities to make it stand-out, but the best way to see if a game stands out to people is to measure how many people bothered to invest in it. Because even if a game is great, even if deserves to stand out, that doesn't necessarily mean it actually does to very many.

Though marketing does aid in helping things stand out, obviously. Unfortunately niche series don't really get too much in the way of marketing.

 

[jaytalks]

Yeah, we definitely shouldnt assume. Sakurai has posted a picture of the Monado on twitter so he is very aware of the series.

 

[N3ON]

I think a safe assumption is Sakurai is aware of pretty much all the Nintendo series. He obviously does some sort of review of Nintendo before creating his rosters to see what's out there. Plus he's been called an "Encyclopedia" before. That said, just because he directly acknowledges a series, like when he tweeted that Monado pic, people think that means he's automatically a fan.

I think the only series he actually said he was a fan of are FE and rail-shooters (but there could be more I'm forgetting or don't know). I do know he's never commented specifically about his opinion on GS or Xenoblade.

 

[Mishudo]

I still don't see why people assume only one or the other can get in. Anyone one whose played both games knows that the only similarity is their hair...that's it. Isaac doesn't even have to constantly use a sword in the game (axes), let alone one at all! Ganon has a sword but doesn't use it, why should Isaac? (to thwart the "omgnuuu not another sword user wah" complaints).
Of course I want both in, but this being in the Isaac thread, I'm gonna root for his choices for now. With the theme of uniqueness, he by far excels in moveset potential with his array of weapons, earth/hand/plant psynergy, and even the various djinn you find the games.
People may think he is too lesser of a franchise then other competing characters, but Sakurai's already given him notice in Brawl, and utilizing one of his unique characteristics. The reason why I even began to play Golden Sun was because of Brawl, and the brilliant exposure it gives to characters. Besides, handheld games need love too

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Sakurai did say he would be implementing less newcomers than in brawl I believe (well I've heard people mention that).....but not counting actual slots he introduced 18 newcomers in brawl so that isn't saying much.

We could be talking anywhere from 10 to 13 newcomers....which is plenty for Isaac to get a spot. Especially considering he's already achieved assist trophy status so it's not like he has to come from nowhere.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Either way, all we can do at this point is wait, though the emphasis on unique newcomers definitely bodes well for him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think so yes. With the movesets of all the new characters, I see Isaac working extremely well! Djinni could even be used similary to how Rosalina uses her Lumas, in a way. It at least opens up the possibility for Djinni, hell even Summons. How awesome would that really be... Psynergy could be used like MegaMan's abilities. Through Smash attacks, Specials and even some tilts? Imagine Spires and Quakes for Smashes, Growth variations for Tilts, Ragnarok, Gaia, Retreat and 'Weapon Unleash' for Specials? Or instead of Weapon Unleash, use Djinni?

I think if Isaac will be in, his moveset will blow away all our expectations easily. Hence am more and more excited about him!

 

[FlareHabanero]

People really shouldn't assume Sakurai's opinion over series he's never specifically commented on, including GS and Xenoblade.


Yes, that is all important, but companies usually don't bother making follow-ups to games that don't evoke a desire-to-pick-up-and-play response from at least a commercially viable chunk of people. If a series does have a lot of games to its name, chances are it is a stand-out series, or at very least some of its titles have been, whether a standalone game... that could go either way. A company isn't going to continue pushing a product that can't gain traction, they push games people want, and if the characters in said game remain largely unchanged, or can hold on to their enduring popularity, evidently people want those characters too. Obviously a game with multiple titles has an install base acceptable enough by the company's standards to have even got it that far, and characters/series with comparatively larger install bases are going to stand out to more people.

One could claim their series has the essential qualities to make it stand-out, but the best way to see if a game stands out to people is to measure how many people bothered to invest in it. Because even if a game is great, even if deserves to stand out, that doesn't necessarily mean it actually does to very many.

Though marketing does aid in helping things stand out, obviously. Unfortunately niche series don't really get too much in the way of marketing.

So what you're saying is that something needs to be heavily promoted to be even considered to be included. Despite that factor being heavily ignored and never even mentioned at all.

Also a bit of irony considering Golden Sun is rarely acknowledged and those games are not promoted heavily. Hell, The Legendary Starfy series is more pushed in that regard.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How is Golden Sun rarely acknowlegded? It was the biggest RPG game on the GBA after Pokémon, and perhaps Fire Emblem. That's saying quite a lot.

Also, unlike Starfy, all games actually got international releases.

 

[N3ON]

So what you're saying is that something needs to be heavily promoted to be even considered to be included. Despite that factor being heavily ignored and never even mentioned at all.

What? I mention marketing helps things stand out (which is common knowledge) and you take from that marketing is not only a prerequisite for standing out, where I only said it aided, but it's a necessity for inclusion? I wasn't even talking about promotion in the majority of my post. No, promotion isn't a necessity for something to be successful by the company's standards. If they don't bother promoting it, they are going to have adjusted expectations of what it can accomplish commercially, and by those expectations, it can still be successful. They aren't going to throw a game out there without promotion and expect it to sell the same as one they plan to give commercials and plenty of marketing attention.

And then, should that game meet or exceed the company's expectations, whatever that may be (usually something profitable), they're much more likely to let the series continue, it obviously stood out to enough people by the company's standards. Companies just expect more out of something they're going to heavily promote. Not all the series in Smash so far have been "heavily promoted" when they get releases, or at very least not every game in every series, so no, it's obviously not a necessity.

Also a bit of irony considering Golden Sun is rarely acknowledged and those games are not promoted heavily. Hell, The Legendary Starfy series is more pushed in that regard.

Really? I remember a little event called E3 2009, where they revealed three games (amongst others): Golden Sun DS, the Legendary Starfy, and Monado: Beginning of the World. Of these three games, only one was given attention at the actual conference, with a trailer and a lead-in from Reggie himself. And it wasn't Starfy or Xenoblade. Not to mention they gave it another trailer the following year.

How exactly has a series relegated to Japan with only one exception been more pushed? The one that made it outside Japan was pushed, sure, because Nintendo wanted to make sure it could thrive in a market they were always wary about releasing it in, but as a whole series? Not as much as a series that has always been international, even if you don't remember the days of GS1 & 2.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Psynergy is still standing out to whatever the Monado can do. It's probably just Habanero being a grumpy ******* again and leashing out at us for having better chances now.

Cause this is basically just him going around in a way by saying he thinks Shulk is a better choice than Isaac. However, this new 'X' game, even IF it starred Shulk, has a drastic different setting. You want Shulk to combine automatic guns with swords or something?

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Psynergy is still standing out to whatever the Monado can do. It's probably just Habanero being a grumpy ******* again and leashing out at us for having better chances now.

Cause this is basically just him going around in a way by saying he thinks Shulk is a better choice than Isaac. However, this new 'X' game, even IF it starred Shulk, has a drastic different setting. You want Shulk to combine automatic guns with swords or something?

The Monado can allow Shulk to see the future, manipulate ether (ether is "the building block of all life on the universe of Xenoblade Chronicles"), can cut through mechons (not sure how that would translate to smash), and can use various Monado arts such as Monado buster (in which the Monado extends an incredibly long beam of purple light (probably ether) to hit enemies.

There's a few other things the Monado does but they're not something Shulk can control. It attracts an ancient race of beasts called the "Telethia" but their sole purpose is to destroy all lifeforms....so I'm not sure how Shulk could make use of that in smash Bros...

It pains me to see people are arguing about whether Isaac or Shulk are more worthy, since they're my two favourite candidates.....both of them have qualities that make them unique and exciting. Both of them have aspects that make them worthy of being playable.

 

[N3ON]

Yeah, Shulk has a lot of potential, he'd make a good character. I don't think potential is really a problem for either him or Isaac.

And I agree, it's unfortunate people see is as a "vs." situation, Isaac is my most wanted and Shulk is in my top 3, so I'd be very happy getting both, but personally at this point I don't see both ending up being included (even though I did at one point), nor do many others on both "sides", so it has kinda turned into some sort of feud... which is silly, considering it won't be one specifically that keeps the other out, it'll just be Sakurai prioritizing one higher. If we even get either of them.

 

[Diddy Kong]

N3ON also likes both Shulk and Isaac, but Habanero / Xenoblaze only likes Shulk. I myself, only like Isaac. Which kinda explains what's going on right here...

All I'm saying is that even though Shulk probably has unique properties, I see Isaac as far less of a 'generic RPG character with sword' because of his Psynergy. Even though it appears to be 'nothing but magic' to some, Isaac's Earth element easily changes that around. For a casual, a blonde guy with a sword using Earth magic stands out more than a blonde guy with a red futuristic sword that... does stuff. Especially compared to the Fire Emblem cast. Which everyone and their dog are gonna compare them with.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Yeah, Shulk has a lot of potential, he'd make a good character. I don't think potential is really a problem for either him or Isaac.

And I agree, it's unfortunate people see is as a "vs." situation, Isaac is my most wanted and Shulk is in my top 3, so I'd be very happy getting both, but personally at this point I don't see both ending up being included (even though I did at one point), nor do many others on both "sides", so it has kinda turned into some sort of feud... which is silly, considering it won't be one specifically that keeps the other out, it'll just be Sakurai prioritizing one higher. If we even get either of them.

I don't think Isaac and Shulk clash that much with each other moveset wise. So I'm sure if Sakurai felt they both deserved to be included he could use that creative flair to make them operate differently. Don't forget what Sakurai has done with newcomer moveset so far.

I don't see Isaac and Shulk being in competition with each other all that much either, which is why all the arguing baffles me. The two most obvious points would be:

1. Sword wielders, which is silly because the fact that Isaac and Shulk both wield swords is beside the point and ignores what they're really capable of, what really makes them special.

2. Both from RPGs, again this is a bit silly since the earthbound and fire emblem series already have representation. If anything we need more RPG representatives. There's nothing stopping two RPG franchises from getting a rep in the same smash Bros.

In the end we can't really predict Sakurai, even if Isaac and Shulk were in direct competition Sakurai could still add both of them and shock us.

 

[N3ON]

I, uh, didn't mean to insinuate their movesets would be a factor in one getting in while the other doesn't, or that they'd function at all similarly, I was just saying that saying Shulk doesn't have anything to work with is as fallacious as saying Isaac doesn't have anything to work with.

 

[Arteen]

Isaac would have a kick-ass moveset causing earthquakes, launching boulders, summoning thorny vines, tossing around opponents with his telekinetic powers and summoning the embodiment of Judgment to smite his foes. He's just dripping with potential.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What actually would be cool if Isaac's Final Smash was the Boulder. You know, the one coming down at the beginning of the game to crash Vale, kill Felix, Isaac's dad and Jenna's parents?

Still rather would see Judgement, but this would also be a cool thing.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I, uh, didn't mean to insinuate their movesets would be a factor in one getting in while the other doesn't, or that they'd function at all similarly, I was just saying that saying Shulk doesn't have anything to work with is as fallacious as saying Isaac doesn't have anything to work with.

I never thought you were saying that. I was just agreeing with your sentiments, adding some of my own thoughts.

 

[Mishudo]

If the Djinn and earth based psynergy are incorporated into his normal moveset such as tilts and smashes, then Im definitely down for Judgement as a FS. Although, people have offered Oddessy as one too, or even Ragnarok

 

[Arteen]

What actually would be cool if Isaac's Final Smash was the Boulder. You know, the one coming down at the beginning of the game to crash Vale, kill Felix, Isaac's dad and Jenna's parents?

Still rather would see Judgement, but this would also be a cool thing.

Patricide is a bit dark for a final smash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Aww c'mon Arteen you know that

Spoiler

the Boulder didn't kill anyone in the end right?

Otherwise, Judgement, Eclipse (my favorite Summon probably), or better yet: different Summons put togheter would work for me to!

Oddesey is also an option of course.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Isaac doesn't even have to constantly use a sword in the game (axes)

Well, Ike can use axes too. But I would want Isaac even more if he brought an axe to SSB. I do doubt that he would have his axe at all if he were playable (It feels like Swords are more his thing, but you never know).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sol Blade and Gaia Blade are the most iconic and logical weapons for Isaac though. I doubt it's gonna be an axe that Isaac will use as a weapon. His sheet also especially suggests it's made for a sword, and Isaac used a sword in his appearance in Dark Dawn.

 

[Ultinarok]

I agree with a lot of these statements. How amazing would it be to have both Shulk and Isaac and have a Shulk/Isaac/Link/Marth swordsman showdown? We should be more optimistic. We could see two new franchises represented, both of which have had new games since Brawl.

 

[TimeSmash]

I still don't see why people assume only one or the other can get in. Anyone one whose played both games knows that the only similarity is their hair...that's it. Isaac doesn't even have to constantly use a sword in the game (axes), let alone one at all! Ganon has a sword but doesn't use it, why should Isaac? (to thwart the "omgnuuu not another sword user wah" complaints).
Of course I want both in, but this being in the Isaac thread, I'm gonna root for his choices for now. With the theme of uniqueness, he by far excels in moveset potential with his array of weapons, earth/hand/plant psynergy, and even the various djinn you find the games.
People may think he is too lesser of a franchise then other competing characters, but Sakurai's already given him notice in Brawl, and utilizing one of his unique characteristics. The reason why I even began to play Golden Sun was because of Brawl, and the brilliant exposure it gives to characters. Besides, handheld games need love too

To add onto this, let's not forget the various classes he could take by combining different Djinn (or however you spell it), so his moveset could be based off a number of those moves as well (like Plume Edge, Helm Spiltter, etc.)

And let's not count out the Sol Blade's "unleash" ability, Megiddo. That in itself looked awesome. There are also several AMAZING summons to choose from n the Lost Age, and those might be included as well. Personally, I could see Isaac split between Psyenergy and sword moves, the standard "Move" hand could be a neutral B or something and be great for edgegaurding, albeit a bit tweaked.

This is making me hypernostalgic

 

[Raetah]

Earth Energy, Earth Energy, Earth Energy...
In bored of reading that in the post. Isaac can use Fire, Wind and Water psynergy with the correct combination of djinns. Also...
Did you know that move was featured as a fire psynergy in GBA?
Swords are the strongest weapon in GS and 6/8 can use swords.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Earth is the most interessting out of all though. And I don't want Isaac to go Ness / Lucas route. Isaac being mostly a ground-based character is just an awesome idea in general, and makes him stand out more. We also don't want people to think of Isaac as the new Avatar right?

 

[Arteen]

Isaac could have an awesome moveset if he incorporated his full psynergy potential, but I'd prefer that he sticks to the earth element.

Lots of RPG characters end up learning a variety of generic elemental spells, so focusing on just earth would help Isaac not feel generic. Earth magic is also significantly underutilized compared to other elements in Smash (SSB has a fair amount of fire, ice, wind and electricity already). Isaac with his thorns and vines and stalagmites and stalactites and ripping the earth asunder would stand out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In the Golden Sun games, Mars and Jupiter Psynergy (fire and wind) are probably my favorite types. Yet, for Smash I can't help being really excited for Isaac to mostly use Venus / Earth Psynergy.