Is this a brawl or melee like air dodge?

[Shudouken]

This is an extract from the latest Rosalina reveal trailer
Is Pit using a directional air dodge like in melee or just a brawl air dodge with momentum from his jump (haven't played brawl all that much, so I'm asking here)

 

[NintendoKnight]

This is an extract from the latest Rosalina reveal trailer
Is Pit using a directional air dodge like in melee or just a brawl air dodge with momentum from his jump (haven't played brawl all that much, so I'm asking here)

Brawl's airdodge. It allows more defense than Melee's airdodge, which is used more as a last resort instead of an option of approach.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That's Brawl's airdodge, but how many frames did that last if you're doing video analysis? Pit's airdodge only had 39 frames of commitment in Brawl, and my casual inspection of that makes it look longer than that.

 

[Shudouken]

Thanks guys, the whole gif had 24 frames, I just slowed them down in the playback

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hmm, what was the framerate of the source video? If it's 30 fps, that would suggest that Pit's airdodge is probably about the same (48 total frames but the first and last several are not a part of the airdodge, probably works out to around 39 frames airdodging).

 

[Shudouken]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, 29fps is the source video's frame rate
Can't find anything in that trailer, but from this gif you can also see that rosalina has so much post move lag

 

[the_suicide_fox]

Yea I just saw the trailer rewind thingy on IGN and saw this and immediately came here. Kinda sad to find out it's not the Melee airdodge, but then again I pretty much expected it not to be.

And I wouldn't try to pull frame data from this. The video was probably at 24fps, the game will either be 30 or 60 fps. You would need the actual game to measure that.

Rosalina looks pretty cool if you ask me. She's Ice Climbers-ish, definitely and interesting design.

 

[pitthekit]

i want air dodge directional or not to put you into a helpless state # frame traps

 

[TimeSmash]

I was really hoping we'd get Melee air dodges back...but who knows, maybe there's a way you can alter it. You never know. If Brawl's return, it's not great, bt there are worse things

 

[Deleted member]

It's Brawl's air dodge. If it was Melee's, then Pit would lose all momentum in the air and stop dead in his tracks.

 

[Kel]

Make L Brawl airdodge and R Melee airdodge.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

It's brawl's airdodge.

But if it doesn't cancel combos, there shouldn't be a problem. since sakurai is probably never going to the melee airdodge ever again....

 

[TimeSmash]

It's brawl's airdodge.

But if it doesn't cancel combos, there shouldn't be a problem. since sakurai is probably never going to the melee airdodge ever again....

You're ruining my optimism for this... hopefully it doesn't cancel combos haha

 

[Caryslan]

Make L Brawl airdodge and R Melee airdodge.

I would say give the player an option when they choose their character, like the old Capcom fighters which let you pick either Manual or Auto when you choose your character.

Also, give both styles of air dodges advantages and disadvantages that are clear to the player.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

You're ruining my optimism for this... hopefully it doesn't cancel combos haha

Don't worry I doubt this is a brawl 2.0 with more speed, sakurai used the word COMBOS in his developer direct, so I doubt it can cancel hitstun. Plus the magnet ledges are gone and of course its faster and less floaty.

What i'm worried about is if we can DI or not since characters fly out of the stage crazy fast.... tho they were probably at higher percents.

Anyway you shouldn't be worried about it, it shaping up to be a good game.

 

[TimeSmash]

Don't worry I doubt this is a brawl 2.0 with more speed, sakurai used the word COMBOS in his developer direct, so I doubt it can cancel hitstun. Plus the magnet ledges are gone and of course its faster and less floaty.

What i'm worried about is if we can DI or not since characters fly out of the stage crazy fast.... tho they were probably at higher percents.

Anyway you shouldn't be worried about it, it shaping up to be a good game.

Oh definitely. After seeing Rosalina and some of her playstyle, I know this will be a good game. I think Brawl is even good, in its own right. But I want this Smash to be more technical like Melee.

Edit: Didn't even see the DI part. I feel like we still will be able to in general, but when there's high percentage knockback like that I'm not too sure. Wouldn't it be great if Sakurai told us about hidden things like that?

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Oh definitely. After seeing Rosalina and some of her playstyle, I know this will be a good game. I think Brawl is even good, in its own right. But I want this Smash to be more technical like Melee

Well wavedashing isn't coming back bro, but L-canceling might, or they might reduce aerial attack lag.

What will return is DD'ing, since there's no triping. and i'm pretty sure Dacus, Out of shield options, etc. should be back, so again you shouldn't be worried, it'll be somewhat technical. but not at melee's level, but there's PM for that. You should enjoy smash 4 for what it is, and if the game has combos it should be pretty good.

 

[TimeSmash]

Well wavedashing isn't coming back bro, but L-canceling might, or they might reduce aerial attack lag.

What will return is DD'ing, since there's no triping. and i'm pretty sure Dacus, Out of shield options, etc. should be back, so again you shouldn't be worried, it'll be somewhat technical. but not at melee's level, but there's PM for that. You should enjoy smash 4 for what it is, and if the game has combos it should be pretty good.

THIS^.

Yes, I don't expect a Melee clone or anything, nor would I want one. I just started Project M, and forget to wavedash (though I mainly use Peach and Zelda, so that makes sense). I like the different feel each game has, and I think Smash 4 will be just as good as any of them. I know a lot of the theory, but it's hard to execute, but I think Smash 4 is when I'll really start playing competitively.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ugh. I really wish people would stop hoping / wishing / clamoring / looking for Melee's air dodge to return. It was nonsense and it should stay gone; the fact that we lucked into it having favorable secondary effects doesn't make it any less ridiculous. It's not coming back, wave dashing isn't coming back, now everyone let it drop. The best you should hope for is a quick step / back step with either double tap stick or forward / back + jump, a quick movement option with no invincibility to compliment rolls that MAYBE can be interrupted with attacks. Something with a non-idiotic input that's not totally anti-new-player and anti-anyone without Starcraft levels of APM. >_>

And even THAT'S a massive maybe. It's seriously time to move on and stop with this. It's just looking foolish now. :/

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The thing about Melee's air dodge is that it was used for much more than simply air dodging, it's that it gave you momentum to help you in various situations, like avoiding an obvious set up at a ledge or mid air at the second, the momentum also helped you avoid lame frame traps that basically give you free damage. While it's possible to air dodge these things in Brawl occasionally, but it doesn't give you the ability to space yourself away from it. Melee's air dodge was fairly balanced and gave players a great deal of offensive and defensive choices and emphasized on players playing smarter mid air.

I don't understand why you're so aggressive towards melee Jack, especially when no one even mentioned wave dashing, and even if it were to return its input is far from non sense, quite the contrary, it's fairly logical. It's simply a combination of two things you do normally except you do them faster; you jump and air dodge in a direction. The thing about high level playing in smash in General is just doing things in quick succession. By that logic optimizing any technical barrier in the game is nonsense. Melee's game engine was simply much more polished and superior, it's hard to see why people wouldn't want that back. I understand you are entitled to your own opinion, but it would help if you didn't approach the topic with an elitist attitude.

Also, as for DI in Smash 4, I'm sure it's going to return, as well as hitstun. The special effects when you are sent flying are also indicators of how much stun you are in. I believe it was made this way so players who want to go from casual to hardcore can physically see the hit stun and perhaps the DI, so when you get sent flying the effects on the tail of the fireball you can see if you DI'd correctly. And the thing about Brawl's hitstun was that it was there; it was the same as Melee's, the glitch in the game that allowed you to cancel hitstun with an air dodge or an aerial. When the glitch is removed, combos will return.

 

[Snakeyes]

I just want combos back

 

[The Real Gamer]

I just want combos back

I said once and I'll say it again...

1) Faster falling speeds cause nobody enjoys the slow, floaty bull ****
2) Decreased landing lag after aerials to compensate for the lack of L-Cancelling and enable newbies to follow up their attacks easier
3) More hitstun to allow for extended combos

With those 3 simple changes Smash 4 would be perfect in my eyes. The game would be fast enough to cater to the more hardcore while still maintaining enough causal elements from Brawl to allow casuals to enjoy the game all the same. The perfect Melee/Brawl hybrid.

 

[mygamecube]

Definitely Brawl's airdodge. I'm sure it was already confirmed before the Rosalina trailer.

However since Smash 4's pace is increased, it's not going to be the same floaty mess it was in Brawl. You could airdodge countless times in Brawl. Since the speed has increased in this one, the number of times you can dodge in the air is probably cut in half.

Melee's airdodge won't ever return in a Smash game, that's clear. It's no big deal though.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The thing about Melee's air dodge is that it was used for much more than simply air dodging, it's that it gave you momentum to help you in various situations, like avoiding an obvious set up at a ledge or mid air at the second, the momentum also helped you avoid lame frame traps that basically give you free damage. While it's possible to air dodge these things in Brawl occasionally, but it doesn't give you the ability to space yourself away from it. Melee's air dodge was fairly balanced and gave players a great deal of offensive and defensive choices and emphasized on players playing smarter mid air.

I disagree. Melee's air dodge allowed players to get out of situations where they probably should have been punished. If a player, for instance, was knocked off stage in such a way that even the "obvious" edgeguards would result in a KO, she should be KO'ed. I don't see that as a problem, and sure, letting the player get out of that may extend the match or give the opportunity for a turnaround, but that certainly isn't necessary design. Brawl may be slow, but in many cases, as you yourself noted, when you make a mistake, you're punished for it, especially if you're only possible defense from punishment is an airdodge.

Melee's airdodge gave players a ton of defensive choices that, frankly, weren't needed, and offensive choices were granted primarily through wave dashing. In a game where the most aerial control any given character could have is multijumping, maybe Melee's air dodge was fairly balanced. In a game where characters can glide, or even straight up FLY? No. That's too much aerial control, and if we already think Brawl is too defensive, good luck trying to out zone a flyer with a glide, multijumps, and a directional air dodge.

I don't understand why you're so aggressive towards melee Jack, especially when no one even mentioned wave dashing...

No one needs to. Since day one, Melee's air dodge was the number one thing people have been looking for in trailers, aside from maybe combos, and it ain't because the animations are so darn pretty.

...and even if it were to return its input is far from non sense, quite the contrary, it's fairly logical. It's simply a combination of two things you do normally except you do them faster; you jump and air dodge in a direction.

Explain to me how it makes sense that, if I want to dash forwards, I should, of course, jump in the air, dodge into the ground, and then slide forward. Yes, to someone who knows the physics engine of the game already, that may make sense. As an action, in and of itself, that is nonsense. Not a single person here, were they designing a game from scratch, would make jump->dodge + diagonal analog down the native input for a quick step, unless that person was insane. Dashing makes sense: it's the walk command, but faster. Short hopping makes sense: it's jumping, but while pressing the button for less time. Wave dashing made NO sense.

The thing about high level playing in smash in General is just doing things in quick succession. By that logic optimizing any technical barrier in the game is nonsense. Melee's game engine was simply much more polished and superior, it's hard to see why people wouldn't want that back. I understand you are entitled to your own opinion, but it would help if you didn't approach the topic with an elitist attitude.

Hardly. 64 was quick, but not prohibitively so. Brawl is as far from quick as you can get. Only Melee requires inputs faster than, say, Marvel. So, I highly doubt "Smash", as a series, is about doing things quickly. And, you have it backwards: optimizing technical barriers, that is to say, making technical barriers exist only when necessary and simplifying mechanics when possible and applicable, is always the goal of good game design. Wave dashing wasn't a problem because it let you dash and attack at the same time (even though it could have been designed better, had it been an intentional mechanic), it was a problem because the inputs were stupid and prohibitively hard for many people to use during matches. And, Smash is not a series designed around ridiculous inputs.

And, you're not going to bait me into a M vs. B quality debate. It's not elitism to call out flaws where they exist. And wavedashing was flawed. Because Melee Air Dodge was flawed. Hence, I'm glad it's not coming back. And, we should move on, because frankly, as I said, it's getting embarrassing that people are clinging to hope about the return of a broken, poorly implemented, 12 year old mechanic when we're about to have a brand new game.

Also, as for DI in Smash 4, I'm sure it's going to return, as well as hitstun. The special effects when you are sent flying are also indicators of how much stun you are in. I believe it was made this way so players who want to go from casual to hardcore can physically see the hit stun and perhaps the DI, so when you get sent flying the effects on the tail of the fireball you can see if you DI'd correctly. And the thing about Brawl's hitstun was that it was there; it was the same as Melee's, the glitch in the game that allowed you to cancel hitstun with an air dodge or an aerial. When the glitch is removed, combos will return.

I'm actually hoping that DI won't be quite as pronounced as it was in Brawl. I'm not exactly sure which special effects you're referring to, but I haven't seen any reason to suggest that there are special graphical effects that show you're in hitstun, aside from animations, which were always the case. Impacts have a shiny new coat of paint, sure, but I don't think that has anything to do with hitstun.

 

[Renji64]

and my hype has been decreased even more seeing brawl's airdoge i pray this game isn't brawl 1.5 I just want to combo and have great/free movement brawl made me feel like i was playing ballonfighter...

 

[CroonerMike]

It's sad that some of you guys are upset about this. Stop living in the past. You can't always get what you want.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

We've known that it's Brawl's air-dodge since E3. I actually prefer Brawl's air-dodge, as long as it can be made so that it isn't just a cheap way to get out of combos.

I wouldn't put too much weight into the gameplay we're seeing currently though. The Brawl E for All demos apparently had quite different gameplay from the final product, and the demos were in October, while the game was released in January in Japan, so finishing up the gameplay elements is apparently of less priority than making all the characters function.

 

[Tweezer Salad]

This is an extract from the latest Rosalina reveal trailer
Is Pit using a directional air dodge like in melee or just a brawl air dodge with momentum from his jump (haven't played brawl all that much, so I'm asking here)

whoa there partner! Put some spoilers and a warning on that thing next time.
I thought this was a family friendly site and I just about puked when I opened this thread.



but seriously though......Yeah...starting loose a lot of hype after I saw this. Brawl's airdoge just screams mediocrity and shallowness.

 

[Niko Mar]

We've known that it's Brawl's air-dodge since E3. I actually prefer Brawl's air-dodge, as long as it can be made so that it isn't just a cheap way to get out of combos.

Yeah seriously man, some people are way too obsessed with having the Melee air-dodge. They know Sakurai won't bring it back, so if they like it so much why don't they just go play some Melee or Project M lol.

 

[Caryslan]

Yeah seriously man, some people are way too obsessed with having the Melee air-dodge. They know Sakurai won't bring it back, so if they like it so much why don't they just go play some Melee or Project M lol.

Honestly, I consider Brawl's air dodge the least of its problems. Brawl had much bigger problems such as a lack of shield stun, less hit stun, slower gameplay, tripping, a lack of any real combos, and the pointless nerfing of certain characters like Samus and Link.

My point is this, people may not like Brawl's air dodge, but its the least of that game's problems. I kinda wonder if people dislike Brawl's air dodge more because it prevented Wave Dashing than because it had any real issues.

I'm not saying Brawl's air dodge is perfect, but Melee's air dodge has its share of problems too. Namely the fact that it took away all options in the air once you used it, and pretty much left you helpless. Brawl's air dodge is not as broken as people think. There is still some strict timing involved, and you can still bait an air dodge out of someone and then punish them. Both types of air dodges have their pros and cons.

I like Brawl's air dodge alot more than Melee's version since I have more options after I use it, and it does not feel like a last resort where I have to trade in my attacks and third jump(If I still have one) just for the privilege of using a basic defensive option..

But as I said before, I think the air dodge in Brawl is the least of that game's problems. There are several other notable problems that need to be addressed before we even talk about the air dodge.

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

Melee airdodge is not going to return, if you want to slide along the ground and proclaim your technical skills , either play melee until the game finally dies, or play Project M.

A clever thought for the airdodge spam: what if you airdodge and you cannot air dodge again for like a second and a half? o.O

 

[TimeSmash]

The loss of Melee air dodges does kind of mess with some character's recovery options, though. I THINK in Brawl Yoshi gets a boost up as he throws his first egg, but when I played with him in Melee I used an air dodge as his third jump. Same for Solo Popo

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Melee airdodge is not going to return, if you want to slide along the ground and proclaim your technical skills , either play melee until the game finally dies, or play Project M.

A clever thought for the airdodge spam: what if you airdodge and you cannot air dodge again for like a second and a half? o.O

Me lee ain't gonna die hater .

 

[grizby2]

Spoiler

I dunno why the idea of "combos" exist here.
this isn't a traditional fighting game. in THOSE games, combos are pretty much inescapable, usually performed while juggling your opponent in the air. in most traditional fighters, you're pretty helpless in the air, and you can only wait until the person performing a combo on you ends the combo. these combos aren't just 2-3 moves at best, they might get into pretty high numbers. you still need execution, timing and spacing for both smash and normal fighters, but for traditional fighters, its a bit more focused on execution than it is spacing and timing. ... anyway, this is how MOST traditional fighters are like.

smash bros though... theres simple button commands, you get knocked back further the higher your % is, theres no "health bar", the list goes on.
but the freedom you have on the ground and in the air in smash is what I think sets it apart from other fighters that makes itself an animal of its own. the idea is to "let them run around and hit each other"
double jumping, air dodging and just the all around freedom of movement is what puts the nail in the coffin when it comes to achieving TRUE combos in smash, because now you have an option to do something after being launched in the air. yes, you can link certain attacks on people that puts them in hitstun for the whole duration, but since movement is so sensitive in smash and % changes the power of knockback, even if you know how to execute the "combo", you're no longer guaranteed to ...just do it again. ya know?
instead of perfect execution of inputs, move inputs are made simple so that the main focus can be curved around spacing and timing.

I mean.. sure theres a couple of inescapable tricks like falco's down throw + Down B, but I wouldn't deem them "combos," and we don't really know if we'll have something like that again.

yes, its a brawl airdodge
all I know is that combo's or not, i'll still pull out fakie-smashes ~

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

Every game dies, please do not assume my clever online name as a melee hater. Melee isnt going to last forever. Gamecube discs break, Gamecube controllers break and stop getting made, People get older.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Something tells me that you won't be able to do an aerial dodge if you're in the middle of a damage animation now. Pit could've easily air dodged the f-air after taking the Luma's attack, but he never did, which may mean that the aerial dodge in Smash 4 is a mix between Melee's and Brawl's.

 

[BSP]

^You don't know if he tried to or not, which is the main question. Nothing is confirmed unless they tell us you can't attack/dodge out of hitstun, or we find out for ourselves.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Every game dies, please do not assume my clever online name as a melee hater. Melee isnt going to last forever. Gamecube discs break, Gamecube controllers break and stop getting made, People get older.

Good thing we have computers.

 

[ChickenWing13]

It has already been stated that they are keeping BRAWL'S airdodge.

Sheesh, you guys need to do some research. Not speaking about everybody though

 

[StarshipGroove]

It's kind of lame that the Brawl dodge is getting rehashed.

Every other game in the series had different air dodges (or not at all ahueahue). This will be the first Smash Bros with the same air dodge as its predecessor. Screams 'been there, done that', really