Is this a brawl or melee like air dodge?

[Rodriguez5]

How about directional airdodge after first jump and after second jump brawls air doge. I feel like it seems right but wont happen. We are going to be stuck with brawls air dodge again.

 

[Dravidian]

IMO the only real problem with Brawls air dodge is that it can be done during hitstun....which was a glitch, so I dont know why people expect it to function the same as in brawl.

Brawl dodge(sans glitch):

• harder to escape pressure since it doesnt move you
• not as easily punished if used right
• doesnt remove other options after use

Melee dodge:

• easier to escape pressure when on or near ground
• easier to punish since it leaves you helpless
• removes most options after use

The glitchless Brawl version just sounds better to me. That being said I understand that many want to use it for a wave dash. But here's an idea. Instead of using a ridiculous input for a often used and relatively simple mechanic, why not just make one of the triggers a dash? You'd still get wavedashing, but people wouldnt have to wear down controllers just to do an unnecessarily complicated input.

 

[Boo Mansion]

I think it would be cool if there was an option to choose between the air dodges. Though this is pretty unlikely because Sakurai, but I think it would be a good way to appeal to both sides. Personally, I would prefer to see the Melee air dodge return; Brawl's air dodge was just far too safe.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I think it would be cool if there was an option to choose between the air dodges. Though this is pretty unlikely because Sakurai, but I think it would be a good way to appeal to both sides. Personally, I would prefer to see the Melee air dodge return; Brawl's air dodge was just far too safe.

People keep saying this, and it's SUCH a bad idea. It's just dumb. So, what, now we have to have separate brackets for Melee Air Dodge events and SSB4 Air Dodge events? Great, let's split the community even more. Besides, such a feature would serve .0001% of the community: the 12 year old children who love Melee so much that they are incapable of playing anything that isn't exactly like it. It wouldn't serve the casuals; they don't care. It wouldn't serve any player who didn't play Melee, and since it's a 12 year old game on a now dead system, most of the new players this generation will never have played Melee. Hell, it won't even serve Melee fans who have even a shred of maturity and are capable of playing a Smash game without wavedashing.

Why do people keep bringing this up like it's a good idea? You know what's a good idea? MAD fans growing up, shutting up, and either joining us in the future, or staying on the Melee boards where we don't have to listen to their drivel.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

People keep saying this, and it's SUCH a bad idea. It's just dumb. So, what, now we have to have separate brackets for Melee Air Dodge events and SSB4 Air Dodge events? Great, let's split the community even more. Besides, such a feature would serve .0001% of the community: the 12 year old children who love Melee so much that they are incapable of playing anything that isn't exactly like it. It wouldn't serve the casuals; they don't care. It wouldn't serve any player who didn't play Melee, and since it's a 12 year old game on a now dead system, most of the new players this generation will never have played Melee. Hell, it won't even serve Melee fans who have even a shred of maturity and are capable of playing a Smash game without wavedashing.

Why do people keep bringing this up like it's a good idea? You know what's a good idea? MAD fans growing up, shutting up, and either joining us in the future, or staying on the Melee boards where we don't have to listen to their drivel.

Two things.

First, having two air dodges wouldn't ruin the game. I guess you have never played Capcom vs SNK, which gave you two styles of super meter that functioned completely differently but still worked well, and in Capcom vs SNK 2 you had 6 different types of meter you could use that also gave players a myriad of functions and possible team combinations. Both air dodges work well, having both wouldn't kill anyone

Second, the only one here mad is you . If people keep bringing up clearly that means it's a solid idea. You, more than anyone else, needs to move on. You're yelling at people off of the assumption that these players are just melee players who just want to wave dash, and even if they were what's wrong with that? You don't need to make such rude condescending remarks because someone happens to have an opinion different than yours. All I see from you is some angry person who feels like his words should carry the most weight. You want people to listen? Then be polite, punctual and provide information instead of making personal attacks, because opinions aren't drivel, and if you represent the "future" for smash players you'll be the thing that continues to drive our community apart. Grow up, man.

 

[Daftatt]

if Sakurai brought back the wavedash the sheer hype-splosion would bump the WiiU sales considerably.

Every game dies, please do not assume my clever online name as a melee hater. Melee isnt going to last forever. Gamecube discs break, Gamecube controllers break and stop getting made, People get older.

project M yo.

 

[Black Mantis]

Melee's airdodge is terrible.

 

[Bean Yak]

It's kind of lame that the Brawl dodge is getting rehashed.

Every other game in the series had different air dodges (or not at all ahueahue). This will be the first Smash Bros with the same air dodge as its predecessor. Screams 'been there, done that', really

Well they're obviously trying to find the right way, in their minds, to implement air dodges. It seems they found what they want.

 

[PWN3]

Although it seems pretty clear that we're getting the Brawl dodge -- or at least something closer to it than Melee's -- I wouldn't mind both of them being included somehow. Maybe a faster, shorter press for Brawl's dodge, and an extended press for Melee?

 

[J1NG]

I don't know how often this has been suggested, and I'm sure lots of people have at least thought of this: what if there were different air dodges distributed to characters? Yes, I am not only suggesting that some characters would have Melee air dodge and others have Brawl's, but maybe a third option could be introduced, such as the oft-mentioned air dash. Maybe some characters wouldn't have an air dodge, assuming that they were properly compensated. I don't think Sakurai would adopt the conventions of traditional fighting games by having air dodges selectable via "groove", "ism", or other switch. At the same time, I don't think he's open to revisit an aspect of a game that he probably feels is made obsolete by the new direction of Smash 4.
Just an idea I had. I'd implement it if I were Sakurai.

 

[ZelDan]

Although it seems pretty clear that we're getting the Brawl dodge -- or at least something closer to it than Melee's -- I wouldn't mind both of them being included somehow. Maybe a faster, shorter press for Brawl's dodge, and an extended press for Melee?

I wonder if having neutral air dodges similar to that of brawl dodges, while still allowing for directional dodges (like in melee), would work? They may have to tweek how the brawl air dodge works though to not make the system broken though, I dunno.

 

[PWN3]

I wonder if having neutral air dodges similar to that of brawl dodges, while still allowing for directional dodges (like in melee), would work? They may have to tweek how the brawl air dodge works though to not make the system broken though, I dunno.

The game seems to be a bit faster overall, and the characters might fall faster... I suppose that sort of thing could make the Brawl-styled dodge less broken. Even still, they'd both inevitably need to be tweaked in one way or another to ever be in the game together.

 

[Hong]

I like Melee's air dodge more, but I'd prefer neither.

I like SSB64, because there is no air dodge. ( 〞▽ 〝)

 

[StarshipGroove]

IMO the only real problem with Brawls air dodge is that it can be done during hitstun....which was a glitch, so I dont know why people expect it to function the same as in brawl.

The ability to air dodge during hitstun was present in Brawl since the E FOR ALL demos. Do you really think no one, especially Sakurai, would notice such an egregious glitch? It was a deliberate gameplay choice.

EDIT: man I should calm down.

 

[CardiganBoy]

Definitely Smash 64.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

if Sakurai brought back the wavedash the sheer hype-splosion would bump the WiiU sales considerably.

The competitive Smash scene isn't big enough to really make such an impact. Even then the majority of competitive Smash players will buy Smash 4 either way.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Two things.

First, having two air dodges wouldn't ruin the game. I guess you have never played Capcom vs SNK, which gave you two styles of super meter that functioned completely differently but still worked well, and in Capcom vs SNK 2 you had 6 different types of meter you could use that also gave players a myriad of functions and possible team combinations. Both air dodges work well, having both wouldn't kill anyone

I have indeed played Capcom vs SNK, which is why I know that this is such a horrible comparison. CvSNK had a groove system in the GDD from day one; each character was designed and balanced with it in mind. Sakurai, obviously, would not do that with Smash. Hell, we already see how many corners he has to cut and how many blind spots he has with his current method of "I will do everything myself". Yes, having selectable air dodges will fail, because if added, I guarantee you it wouldn't be part of the design from the beginning, and even if it was, there's NO way it would be balanced properly and we'd end up with MK and a Melee air dodge, which would be hell on earth.

MAYBE the only possible way it could work that I've seen presented is J1ng'a suggestion of every character having a tailored dodge mechanic, because at least THAT requires that both Sakurai intended it from the beginning and that each one would, by necessity, need at least a degree of balancing, although I do think that it would still suffer from under-balancing. Either way, wave dashing, which if you remember, is what I asserted was the reason people are so fervent about MAD in the first place, cannot ever come back. Ever.

Second, the only one here mad is you . If people keep bringing up clearly that means it's a solid idea. You, more than anyone else, needs to move on. You're yelling at people off of the assumption that these players are just melee players who just want to wave dash, and even if they were what's wrong with that? You don't need to make such rude condescending remarks because someone happens to have an opinion different than yours. All I see from you is some angry person who feels like his words should carry the most weight. You want people to listen? Then be polite, punctual and provide information instead of making personal attacks, because opinions aren't drivel, and if you represent the "future" for smash players you'll be the thing that continues to drive our community apart. Grow up, man.

Yes, I am indeed mad. In fact, I'm furious. I was here for Melee AND Brawl, and I saw what happened to Brawl because of players like the ones clamoring for MAD in SSB4. It ruined the game. Well, not even that, it ruined the community, because the game always was and still is just fine, MK not included. We've already seen first hand what happens to a game when you try to force it to be Melee when it's not, and it ruins everything. And, this board in particular has been filled from day 1 with posts and threads and people who are hell bent on repeating every possible mistake we can. I am furious because I don't want for SSB4 what happened to Brawl, which was a bunch of spoiled children making snap judgments that ruined the competitive community for a good game, and that's what I see with crap like this clamor for MAD and wave dashing and this pathological inability to move on from the past.

I don't condescend because people think differently, I condescend because people have opinions which are demonstratively destructive. I know people won't listen, because they didn't listen during Brawl's lifespan, when I was saying the exact same things from the beginning, and look how THAT turned out. People bringing up stupid ideas over and over doesn't make the idea any less stupid: look at the Tea Party. You should know full well that argument ad populum is dumb. And so, I'm going to say what I want when I want on the off chance that maybe it will have some sort of effect because that's better than sitting by while you all destroy the game the day it comes out by going "well, it doesn't have wave dashing, better ruin everything" the way we did with Brawl.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I have indeed played Capcom vs SNK, which is why I know that this is such a horrible comparison. CvSNK had a groove system in the GDD from day one; each character was designed and balanced with it in mind. Sakurai, obviously, would not do that with Smash. Hell, we already see how many corners he has to cut and how many blind spots he has with his current method of "I will do everything myself". Yes, having selectable air dodges will fail, because if added, I guarantee you it wouldn't be part of the design from the beginning, and even if it was, there's NO way it would be balanced properly and we'd end up with MK and a Melee air dodge, which would be hell on earth.

MAYBE the only possible way it could work that I've seen presented is J1ng'a suggestion of every character having a tailored dodge mechanic, because at least THAT requires that both Sakurai intended it from the beginning and that each one would, by necessity, need at least a degree of balancing, although I do think that it would still suffer from under-balancing. Either way, wave dashing, which if you remember, is what I asserted was the reason people are so fervent about MAD in the first place, cannot ever come back. Ever.



Yes, I am indeed mad. In fact, I'm furious. I was here for Melee AND Brawl, and I saw what happened to Brawl because of players like the ones clamoring for MAD in SSB4. It ruined the game. Well, not even that, it ruined the community, because the game always was and still is just fine, MK not included. We've already seen first hand what happens to a game when you try to force it to be Melee when it's not, and it ruins everything. And, this board in particular has been filled from day 1 with posts and threads and people who are hell bent on repeating every possible mistake we can. I am furious because I don't want for SSB4 what happened to Brawl, which was a bunch of spoiled children making snap judgments that ruined the competitive community for a good game, and that's what I see with crap like this clamor for MAD and wave dashing and this pathological inability to move on from the past.

I don't condescend because people think differently, I condescend because people have opinions which are demonstratively destructive. I know people won't listen, because they didn't listen during Brawl's lifespan, when I was saying the exact same things from the beginning, and look how THAT turned out. People bringing up stupid ideas over and over doesn't make the idea any less stupid: look at the Tea Party. You should know full well that argument ad populum is dumb. And so, I'm going to say what I want when I want on the off chance that maybe it will have some sort of effect because that's better than sitting by while you all destroy the game the day it comes out by going "well, it doesn't have wave dashing, better ruin everything" the way we did with Brawl.

Well jack, I can see why you are irritated, but one technique in a game isn't going to ruin the game, especially if it is impossible to do in the first place. But the things that concerned many players during the launch of Brawl was the deliberate removal of functionality in game play that Melee had done so well with. Mobility options like Dash Dancing (Which was in the Brawl Demo, along with wave landing) which is arguably much more important, was removed from the game as well as many other things.

Also, who is "we"? How can we even possibly destroy something that isn't our own creation. Sure, designers were able to modify Brawl in various ways but it's by no means permanent, and it isn't forced upon you; smash is great because you can play it whatever way you want. Of course there is going to be some jerk who rips on a game for no reason but that exist in every gaming community, and it's unfair that you target the players who like to play Melee and view them as some inferior beings while you clamor yourself as an individual that can't do wrong because of personal beliefs. You can't let one bad apple spoil the bunch. I love Melee to death, but I love smash more than anything, that's why we keep coming back here. Melee players aren't as*holes; as*holes are as*holes.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well jack, I can see why you are irritated, but one technique in a game isn't going to ruin the game, especially if it is impossible to do in the first place. But the things that concerned many players during the launch of Brawl was the deliberate removal of functionality in game play that Melee had done so well with. Mobility options like Dash Dancing (Which was in the Brawl Demo, along with wave landing) which is arguably much more important, was removed from the game as well as many other things.

And you know what? Be concerned. Fine. But, don't respond with concern over removed features by removing everything in the game. That's irrational, and it ruined Brawl. Reduced stage lists crushed character balance. Removing all items introduced strategic balance issues and overcentralized defensive strategies. When we should have removed a character, we didn't, and when we tried, it was too late and most of the players left because the game wasn't fun anymore and all the damage had already been done. The response by people who saw Melee elements removed and actually responded to that removal was entirely irrational, and it carried heavy consequences with it. Consequences that I do not, under any circumstances, want to see repeated.

Also, who is "we"? How can we even possibly destroy something that isn't our own creation. Sure, designers were able to modify Brawl in various ways but it's by no means permanent, and it isn't forced upon you; smash is great because you can play it whatever way you want. Of course there is going to be some jerk who rips on a game for no reason but that exist in every gaming community, and it's unfair that you target the players who like to play Melee and view them as some inferior beings while you clamor yourself as an individual that can't do wrong because of personal beliefs. You can't let one bad apple spoil the bunch. I love Melee to death, but I love smash more than anything, that's why we keep coming back here. Melee players are as*holes; as*holes are as*holes.

The game isn't our creation, but the competitive community IS, as is the ruleset we use. Smash, in general, and Brawl, in particular, are fine, as games in and of themselves, regardless of our machinations on SWF, sure. But, I'm not interested in any of that crap. I'm on SWF because I want to run tournaments and see players having the times of their lives. Competition outside of what the game does out-of-the-box, serious, money-on-the-line, players playing their hearts out competition is what interests me, and most of the people here (aside from the usual influx of casual enthusiasts that come with the release of every game, accounts that will get 100 posts and then never come back after release) agree, I'm sure. THAT is something we create ourselves and totally have to power to destroy: the community, the metagame, the brick-and-mortar events.

Do I think every single Melee player is an idiot? Of course not, and I've said that many, many times. The problem isn't people who have a preference, the problem is people who think that their preference is literally the only good competitive game in the series and that any other game is an affront to competition. Melee is a fine competitive game. It's also firmly in the past. Which is why I'm frustrated by players who refuse to move on and accept that other designs can have strong, healthy communities around them, designs like Brawl, for instance. I want to be clear: I don't target Melee players, as a group. I target Melee players who are also hyper judgmental of Brawl and who show clear desire that SSB4 be as close to Melee as possible using the rationale that Melee was, is, and always will be the greatest.

As we saw with Brawl, yes, a few bad apples entirely can spoil the whole bunch, especially when those bad apples are in the back room and are TOs. Those bad apples RUINED Brawl's community and scene. And, if it's the last thing I do, I want those bad apples as far away from positions of power in the community has humanly possible when SSB4 releases. And, I want as few of those bad apples in the masses as possible, because that means less of a chance of them supporting the bad apples in positions of influence.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

And you know what? Be concerned. Fine. But, don't respond with concern over removed features by removing everything in the game. That's irrational, and it ruined Brawl. Reduced stage lists crushed character balance. Removing all items introduced strategic balance issues and overcentralized defensive strategies. When we should have removed a character, we didn't, and when we tried, it was too late and most of the players left because the game wasn't fun anymore and all the damage had already been done. The response by people who saw Melee elements removed and actually responded to that removal was entirely irrational, and it carried heavy consequences with it. Consequences that I do not, under any circumstances, want to see repeated.



The game isn't our creation, but the competitive community IS, as is the ruleset we use. Smash, in general, and Brawl, in particular, are fine, as games in and of themselves, regardless of our machinations on SWF, sure. But, I'm not interested in any of that crap. I'm on SWF because I want to run tournaments and see players having the times of their lives. Competition outside of what the game does out-of-the-box, serious, money-on-the-line, players playing their hearts out competition is what interests me, and most of the people here (aside from the usual influx of casual enthusiasts that come with the release of every game, accounts that will get 100 posts and then never come back after release) agree, I'm sure. THAT is something we create ourselves and totally have to power to destroy: the community, the metagame, the brick-and-mortar events.

Do I think every single Melee player is an idiot? Of course not, and I've said that many, many times. The problem isn't people who have a preference, the problem is people who think that their preference is literally the only good competitive game in the series and that any other game is an affront to competition. Melee is a fine competitive game. It's also firmly in the past. Which is why I'm frustrated by players who refuse to move on and accept that other designs can have strong, healthy communities around them, designs like Brawl, for instance. I want to be clear: I don't target Melee players, as a group. I target Melee players who are also hyper judgmental of Brawl and who show clear desire that SSB4 be as close to Melee as possible using the rationale that Melee was, is, and always will be the greatest.

As we saw with Brawl, yes, a few bad apples entirely can spoil the whole bunch, especially when those bad apples are in the back room and are TOs. Those bad apples RUINED Brawl's community and scene. And, if it's the last thing I do, I want those bad apples as far away from positions of power in the community has humanly possible when SSB4 releases. And, I want as few of those bad apples in the masses as possible, because that means less of a chance of them supporting the bad apples in positions of influence.

If I'm reading correctly it sounds like you just dislike the way tournaments are run in general; the typical 3-stock 8-minute games with neutral stages and counter picks. The tournament organizers aren't ruining the competitive scene per say (quite the contrary, they contribute a great deal to the community) they are simply reinforcing a unanimous agreement so that the community can prosper. When you say " out-of-the- box", I assume you mean default settings, all items and stages on? We'll there was a point in time where this was tested out and it did not work out well, reason being that there are too many random variables that can cause a player to lose unjustly. You can have a huge lead in a match and potentially lose to a stage hazard or a random explosion, which is something that someone doesn't want when money is on the line; it's borderline gambling. In a 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 situation the players victory should be determined by their own merits. Even if you were to utilize and item based system the character with superb mobility will typically win because they can maneuver around the opponent and retrieve items much quicker than the opponent. It's in line with the same reasonings why Brawl is claimed to be a bad competitive game; tripping, literally being punished for no reason what so ever.

Not only that the game had some inconsistent bugs like characters being grabbed released into an infinite percentage, no shield stun, making players revert to very cheap and boring tactics to win etc. not that the other smash games didn't have its fair share of problems, but Brawls were the ones that stuck out the most and made players feel disconnected from the developer/player experience. If it is a game that is made to be played in any fashion you want, you shouldn't deliberately attempt to cripple one method of playing, it's bias.

Should we try to change the foundation of how competitive smash is played? Well no, I mean if it isn't broken, why fix it? Sure everyone will be open to the possibility and play with everything, but given that the game is smash bros and there are no drastic differences between the core engine for the most part the engine is the same. There are a myriad of variables that go into creating a tournament friendly experience, from character specific match ups to how characters have advantages and disadvantages on the stage or even how characters can use invincibility frames on spawn, it is all taken into account before it is finalized. Will people play smash out- of- the-box when it is released and experiment with the game? Absolutely. There were many tournaments ran that utilized every stage when each game was first released, we merely build up from there.

If you feel that the foundation for the current competitive scene of smash isn't fair to all of the players and you want to change something, try joining the back room then. Conjure up some information and data and apply it if you feel you have information that could potentially be groundbreaking as they are open to new ideas.

 

[Jack Kieser]

If I'm reading correctly it sounds like you just dislike the way tournaments are run in general; the typical 3-stock 8-minute games with neutral stages and counter picks.

Then either you're reading incorrectly, or I'm communicating poorly, because I never said that, or even implied it; I modeled the current form of ISP after that, even going so far as to include a CP system. No, what I dislike is how we come to form rulesets, which I'll touch on again in a sec.

The tournament organizers aren't ruining the competitive scene per say (quite the contrary, they contribute a great deal to the community) they are simply reinforcing a unanimous agreement so that the community can prosper.

Not true; if League, or Starcraft, or the NBA, or any major competitive sport ran itself the way our TOs do, we wouldn't have sports. Period. Our TOs are spineless, acquiescing to the whims of uneducated, whiny players with a speed that eclipses what would cause whiplash in other contexts. In the last 5 years, I have not once seen a TO actually stand up to his or her players and say "No, damnit, you are biased and cannot make good decisions, and you will play the game that WE have decided is best because WE know what we're doing." Which is how every other sport is run. I don't care how much you don't like Ahri's Charm mechanics, Riot runs the game, and complain all you want, those are the rules. It doesn't matter how much a football player doesn't like a rule; if the association of people who actually run games make a rule, he freaking follows it (I don't know much about football mechanics).

If our TOs didn't lose their spines in the past half a decade, maybe we could have actually had a good game. Instead, they let biased players with OBVIOUS conflicts of interest make the rules of the game, and when the people making the rules are the people making money off of the rules, as we see in politics, bad things happen.

When you say " out-of-the- box", I assume you mean default settings, all items and stages on? We'll there was a point in time where this was tested out and it did not work out well, reason being that there are too many random variables that can cause a player to lose unjustly. You can have a huge lead in a match and potentially lose to a stage hazard or a random explosion, which is something that someone doesn't want when money is on the line; it's borderline gambling. In a 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 situation the players victory should be determined by their own merits. Even if you were to utilize and item based system the character with superb mobility will typically win because they can maneuver around the opponent and retrieve items much quicker than the opponent. It's in line with the same reasonings why Brawl is claimed to be a bad competitive game; tripping, literally being punished for no reason what so ever.

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, know your history; according to the thread history we have in Tournament Listings, NOT A SINGLE ONE of the first national events had All-Brawl on; every single one of them had items banned, and all of them banned at least one stage. So, you're already wrong that we "tested" All-Brawl, because testing, by definition, includes the highest level of play, which can only happen at a national or international event.

Second, even IF All-Brawl wouldn't work, NO testing was actually done in a competitive sphere with items until, wait for it, ISP, then called CCL, did it, and even THEN, it took until the first WHOBO for item play to be done competitively at the national level. So, no, we DIDN'T test things; that's a myth that people tell to make themselves feel better about how much we banned and how we banned it.

And even then, WHOBO was the first event with a CP system in place, but no one used it because no one had read the rules and understood it, so it went pretty much ignored for the entire event (I know, because I was the one running it and I was the one checking stations for correct settings before matches). So, even if we tested all-items, we didn't properly test banned and counterpick lists in relation to items.

And even then, there was, and still is, serious contention about how much luck is permissible in competitive games, which is definitely a non-0 number, or else League, with its % critical hit chances, wouldn't be a sport, and it clearly is.

And, EVEN THEN, you STILL make bring up the mobility fallacy that more mobile characters are overpowered in item play, which has NEVER actually been proven or has even had significant evidence turn up in its favor at any level of play above "casual".

So, no. Just stop. No.

Not only that the game had some inconsistent bugs like characters being grabbed released into an infinite percentage, no shield stun, making players revert to very cheap and boring tactics to win etc. not that the other smash games didn't have its fair share of problems, but Brawls were the ones that stuck out the most and made players feel disconnected from the developer/player experience. If it is a game that is made to be played in any fashion you want, you shouldn't deliberately attempt to cripple one method of playing, it's bias.

Oh, the hypocrisy. Grab releases weren't bugs, they were balancing oversights, and Melee had balancing oversights in spades (Link, anyone?). Melee was in the complete opposite direction, rushdown was so powerful that turtling and camping was suicide (again, Link, anyone?), which completely shut down legitimate playstyles; show me ANYTHING like Chris G's Morrigan team in Melee. And, if wave dashing didn't disconnect the players from the developers, I don't know what did. No, if anything, Brawl seemed so bad because players, specifically the Melee Old Guard who didn't like Brawl's slower pace and non-rushdown oriented playstyles, slandered the game so hard in its first year that the bad propaganda won out.

Besides, if "you shouldn't deliberately attempt to cripple one method of playing" is bad because bias, then explain how so many people invading my old ISP threads and starting flame wars just to troll as a method of shutting down any semblance of play different from the last 2 years of Melee isn't bias.

Should we try to change the foundation of how competitive smash is played? Well no, I mean if it isn't broken, why fix it? Sure everyone will be open to the possibility and play with everything, but given that the game is smash bros and there are no drastic differences between the core engine for the most part the engine is the same. There are a myriad of variables that go into creating a tournament friendly experience, from character specific match ups to how characters have advantages and disadvantages on the stage or even how characters can use invincibility frames on spawn, it is all taken into account before it is finalized. Will people play smash out- of- the-box when it is released and experiment with the game? Absolutely. There were many tournaments ran that utilized every stage when each game was first released, we merely build up from there.

And no one realistically thinks that All-SSB4 will be a thing a year or two down the road, but that's not the problem. Again, what I care about isn't the end state of the game, because if the process to get to that end state is robust and stable, then it doesn't matter what that state is. And, that process is broken. We make snap decisions based on the top 4 players complaining rather than hard evidence and months of testing. You're right, a myriad of things go into making a tournament-friendly game... like SSF4 or Marvel or League, NOT like Smash. None of that goes into Smash because that's not the point of Sakurai's design philosophy. Which means that, of course we'll have to tweak things. But, if we do it irresponsibly, then OF COURSE the game will fail.

If you feel that the foundation for the current competitive scene of smash isn't fair to all of the players and you want to change something, try joining the back room then. Conjure up some information and data and apply it if you feel you have information that could potentially be groundbreaking as they are open to new ideas.

I was actually invited to the back room in 2010 and I turned it down, because there was no point. I would have been a lone voice, and by that time, I was already very heavily smeared due to my ISP work. Overswarm and Pierce7D would have welcomed me (in fact, Pierce was the one who invited me), but by that point, things were so screwed that adding a 3rd person to their team wouldn't have changed anything. I conjured up 26 page thread on top of a separate 6 page thread over the course of years, and people still ignore that and tell me to conjure up data, so look how THAT went. >_>

 

[CardiganBoy]

That's definitely Smash 4 airdodge

 

[Lazurwolf]

Brawl's dodge. If I were to make a change, I would make the air dodge a combination of Brawl and Melee (kind of). My own version would be able to move the direction of your character, but you would only be able to use one air dodge. However, instead of just falling like your "frozen", you would be free to do any action like Brawl.

also wavedashing ftw

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

If you want Melee's air-dodge, play melee. Stick to your Melee forever. You guys can keep proclaiming how great it is while we (the fans of the series, not one specific version) move on to Smash4,5 and 6.

I mean, that shine upsmash thing will start getting old when you hit about 30. lawl.

slandered the game so hard in its first year that the bad propaganda won out.

This is very true, because I never got a chance to try Brawl until January of 2013. I was pretty much an internet ****** telling everyone how bad the game was... before even playing it. Bad propaganda ftw

 

[Muster]

Jumping into this thread with a quote from a previous interview, specifically, this one http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/14/4429220/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-nintendo-3ds-removes-tripping
"He also confirmed that the Wii U and 3DS Smash Bros. games won't have tripping (or prat falls), and that "at this point," the games will allow for multiple air dodges."
Remember, the game is still in development, so there still is a chance that we'll get melee's air dodge or an option for it.
We're probably going to get a brand new air dodge though
I personally don't care, i'll enjoy the game regardless.

 

[pitthekit]

I hope you can't air dodge out of hit stun...... What? This makes teching even easier, teching in melee is way easier than brawl!

 

[APC99]

Why can't we just play Smash Bros and not care about if it acts like Melee or Brawl? They were their own games. Let this one be it's own as well. Keep moving forward, let the past behind. What's the point of making another Smash Bros. if Melee's "the perfect one" and Brawl is a failure because it's not like Melee?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

If you want Melee's air-dodge, play melee. Stick to your Melee forever. You guys can keep proclaiming how great it is while we (the fans of the series, not one specific version) move on to Smash4,5 and 6.

I mean, that shine upsmash thing will start getting old when you hit about 30. lawl.


This is very true, because I never got a chance to try Brawl until January of 2013. I was pretty much an internet ****** telling everyone how bad the game was... before even playing it. Bad propaganda ftw

Melee's air dodge was great because it was balanced and functional. You could use it to make an unexpected recovery or escape an opponents combo. It also forced players to be smart when recovering and attacking in the air. One of the few things I could say that was bad about it is that it made aerial attacks very effective and projectiles could gimp easily, however this could be remedied by playing smarter.

As for you not playing Brawl that's your own fault for valuing the opinions of others so much. I play both of them. They're both good, but as far as entertainment value goes Melee wins for me.

Shffl Dair wave shine U smash is still dope. If I get tired of it I'll use Thunders Combo, Shine Bair, U throw back wave shine shine Bair, Dark Rain Combo, Ken Combo, Pillar Combo, Ness/Yoshi DJC combos or whatever crazy combination of moves the players will create next. Know what gets stale? Grab Release, Chain Grab Spike or 50 Uairs into Tornado.

 

[MechaWave]

but seriously though......Yeah...starting loose a lot of hype after I saw this. Brawl's airdoge just screams mediocrity and shallowness.

I logged in just to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read in my whole life, seriously. You lose all hype for this game because of one mechanic that is just one of many other mechanics that determine the playstyle of the game? It's not like Melee air dodge would make Smash 4 more interesting.

People forget that even if directional air dodge returned, there's no confirmation that Sakurai would keep wavedashing. He could add specific coding for when you land from an air dodge so you don't slide.

There is also no confirmation from this gif either. Yes, it is Brawl airdodge. Pit keeps his momentum while dodging. Though, it could be more than that. Did Sakurai nerf it so you have to wait 1-2 seconds to air dodge again? Did Sakurai make it like Melee where you you only air dodge once, but remove the helpless state like Brawl (effectively Melee and Brawl air dodge mashed together.) Did he increase all characters' animations by several frames or decrease?

We don't know, we don't have enough footage or info. We can assume you keep your momentum and air dodge like Brawl, but no more. There's also the case of options. M&SG stated that you can't air dodge in a hitstun state, but that's not really true. The person capturing footage for the trailer could've just not pressed anything to allow Rosalina to combo, as one example.

In the end, we can't really know for certain if this air dodge is just like Brawl's at this point.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

How I feel about airdodging:

Melee:

Directional shift in midair that influences your movement. Awesome.
Helpless state. Stupid and annoying. Leaves you wide open.

Brawl:

Allows you to dodge an attack in midair without going into a gay helpless state. Awesome.
Makes it abit harder to combo the airdodger, because they can use it without consequence. Kinda lame, but I'll live.

All in all, I'd like a combination of both. The ability to influence the direction you move without going into a helpless state.