Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small?

[Flamecircle]

If it actually offered depth to some reasonable degree. I would defend it.

But all it is at it's core is a barrier to raise the floor and offer nothing for the skill ceiling.

Remove it, cut lag in half, boom you now have the same game with a much lower skill floor, same skill ceiling and same gameplay.

It's win-win.

If it offered depth of choice then something would be there.

But the oh so magical question of,

"Do I want more lag or less lag?"

That in itself is a terrible mechanic.

Edit: let me give you something to read,
http://sirlingames.squarespace.com/blog/2012/7/16/execution-in-fighting-games.html

http://www.cpgaming.gg/guest-blog/esports-blog/negative-aspects-of-ssbm/

Technically, it does add a little bit of depth in that you cant try to mix up your shielding patterns and hope they screw up their L-cancel.

However it's so minute and unreliable that it's not worth the chafe of L-cancelling in the first place.

Are people actually arguing in favor of technical walls for the sake of barrier of entry? That really confuses me.

 

[Kurri ★]

An imput not ment to be gotten every single time is virtually luck. L-cancelling is comparable to tripping, since the whole point is that somebody might screw up and the lesser player gets an attack in.

But it is meant to be gotten every single time and it is possible. However, being human, we do make mistakes. people don't miss L_Cancels because of probability, like tripping, they miss it because they themselves missed it.

Think of it this way, no matter how hard you try, you're not always guaranteed of landing a 9 with GnW, the number is outside of player control. L-Canceling is possible to get every time because it depends solely on the players "skill" (sure it's arbitrary and dumb but it's still a skill).

 

[Muro]

An imput not ment to be gotten every single time is virtually luck. L-cancelling is comparable to tripping, since the whole point is that somebody might screw up and the lesser player gets an attack in.

holy molly the level of mental gymnastics some people go through to justify their game preference is astounding. Whether or not you get the L-Cancel is dependent on you, the game doesn't roll a dice to tell if you did or didn't L-cancel. By the same token you could say any test of skill is a luck tester...this is dumb. And for the record, I think L-cancel is an unnecessary test of skill with no nuance to it whatsoever and the game would be better off without it.

 

[PCHU]

If it actually offered depth to some reasonable degree. I would defend it.

But all it is at it's core is a barrier to raise the floor and offer nothing for the skill ceiling.

Remove it, cut lag in half, boom you now have the same game with a much lower skill floor, same skill ceiling and same gameplay.

It's win-win.

If it offered depth of choice then something would be there.

Honestly, I just like pushing buttons; it's rare that I come across a situation in a game where pushing more buttons is the only thing keeping me from playing how I want to because I usually avoid characters with inputs I can't bring myself to master.
I actually would have no issue with them just halving all landing lag, but they'd have to "fix" characters like Fox and Falco so the shield pressure isn't completely braindead.
...may as well attempt to balance out everyone else if you're going that route, but you get the idea.

As for LancerStaff, the input was made "difficult" so it required practice, not because it wasn't "meant to be gotten every time" like actual RNG (Turnips, Judgement, Villager uair/dair).

Spoiler

Input. Not imput with the nasty red line under it

 

[LancerStaff]

But it is meant to be gotten every single time and it is possible. However, being human, we do make mistakes. people don't miss L_Cancels because of probability, like tripping, they miss it because they themselves missed it.

Exactly. It only exists because it can be failed.

holy molly the level of mental gymnastics some people go through to justify their game preference is astounding. Whether or not you get the L-Cancel is dependent on you, the game doesn't roll a dice to tell if you did or didn't L-cancel. By the same token you could say any test of skill is a luck tester...this is dumb. And for the record, I think L-cancel is an unnecessary test of skill with no nuance to it whatsoever and the game would be better off without it.

It's a mechanic similar to tripping in that it's an effectively random way to let a weaker player to get a hit in. It's stupid. RNG in video games isn't even random... It's just effectively random because it's not understood.

As for LancerStaff, the input was made "difficult" so it required practice, not because it wasn't "meant to be gotten every time" like actual RNG (Turnips, Judgement, Villager uair/dair).

Spoiler

Input. Not imput with the nasty red line under it

It's braindead enough to be performed easily, yet narrow and easily influenced to the point it can be failed at all. Just a cheat in Melee, an antiquated artifact in PM.

Spoiler

And I come from hicksville. Thought M&Ms were N&Ns until I was seven.

 

[Muro]

It's a mechanic similar to tripping in that it's an effectively random way to let a weaker player to get a hit in. It's stupid. RNG in video games isn't even random... It's just effectively random because it's not understood.

I think this post deserves its own thread.

 

[LightLV]

I think this post deserves its own thread.

Yeah, I'm not even going to quote and reply to that nonsense. I guess the problem with having these kinds of discussions on smashboards is that it invites alot of people who have no grasp on the concept of competitive play to voice opinions.

From people who think pros are literally execution perfect (despite there being hundreds of youtube hours of footage to disprove it), to those who think L-cancelling is comparable to tripping, sometimes i really wonder why we're even attempting to have this conversation. The sad part is, i remember sharing alot of these thoughts years ago before i started deciding to get good at other games besides smash bros. That's why it's so annoying to hear them repeated so much, it's like i know where it comes from.

I don't think anyone really argues that L-cancel was a particularly good example of a tech wall. But I don't think it's too much different from perfect blocking in fighters, or even powershielding in Melee -- technically, anytime you don't do it is sub-optimal, and the same argument can be made for any just-frame inputs or similar.

Maybe if L-cancelling was just holding the button down, and instead cancelled your frames for exchange for some of your shield power, it would have been made a decent mechanic. But if all aerials in melee were cancelled automatically, even I think it would have made some aspects pretty ridiculous. I don't think a 6-frame window and a simple button press was all that demanding, not enough to cry about anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Little nitpick but L-Cancelling is 7 frames not 6 for the window to do it.

Honestly, I just like pushing buttons; it's rare that I come across a situation in a game where pushing more buttons is the only thing keeping me from playing how I want to because I usually avoid characters with inputs I can't bring myself to master.
I actually would have no issue with them just halving all landing lag, but they'd have to "fix" characters like Fox and Falco so the shield pressure isn't completely braindead.
...may as well attempt to balance out everyone else if you're going that route, but you get the idea.

As for LancerStaff, the input was made "difficult" so it required practice, not because it wasn't "meant to be gotten every time" like actual RNG (Turnips, Judgement, Villager uair/dair).

Spoiler

Input. Not imput with the nasty red line under it

That's because Fox and Falco are problems on themselves, even in Project Melee.

Yeah, I'm not even going to quote and reply to that nonsense. I guess the problem with having these kinds of discussions on smashboards is that it invites alot of people who have no grasp on the concept of competitive play to voice opinions.

From people who think pros are literally execution perfect (despite there being hundreds of youtube hours of footage to disprove it), to those who think L-cancelling is comparable to tripping, sometimes i really wonder why we're even attempting to have this conversation. The sad part is, i remember sharing alot of these thoughts years ago before i started deciding to get good at other games besides smash bros. That's why it's so annoying to hear them repeated so much, it's like i know where it comes from.

I don't think anyone really argues that L-cancel was a particularly good example of a tech wall. But I don't think it's too much different from perfect blocking in fighters, or even powershielding in Melee -- technically, anytime you don't do it is sub-optimal, and the same argument can be made for any just-frame inputs or similar.

Maybe if L-cancelling was just holding the button down, and instead cancelled your frames for exchange for some of your shield power, it would have been made a decent mechanic. But if all aerials in melee were cancelled automatically, even I think it would have made some aspects pretty ridiculous. I don't think a 6-frame window and a simple button press was all that demanding, not enough to cry about anyway.

The issue is it doesn't really make the game better in any way.

It's there just to keep people out and nothing more.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think this post deserves its own thread.

Why does L-cancelling exist?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why does L-cancelling exist?

Because it does.

For PM, because Melee.

No other reason.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because it does.

For PM, because Melee.

No other reason.

Yep. Don't think I need to tell you, but it creates another input to screw up. There's no depth, no strategy, no skill, nothing. "Because Melee" are two words I personally want to see die in the fire.

 

[Kurri ★]

Why does L-cancelling exist?

Because it reduces lag.

Is it useful? Yeah!

is it a great mechanic? No. Just adds a lot of unneeded noise. Actually reducing the lag on all moves would literally lead to the same result without having to use an arbitrary barrier.

B-But, it takes skill! Yeah, but it's a dumb one.

 

[Ohsm]

It's a mechanic similar to tripping in that it's an effectively random way to let a weaker player to get a hit in. It's stupid. RNG in video games isn't even random... It's just effectively random because it's not understood.

This is the most ******** post I have ever seen on Smashboards.

Spoiler

 

[Alus]

Yeah, I'm not even going to quote and reply to that nonsense. I guess the problem with having these kinds of discussions on smashboards is that it invites alot of people who have no grasp on the concept of competitive play to voice opinions.

From people who think pros are literally execution perfect (despite there being hundreds of youtube hours of footage to disprove it), to those who think L-cancelling is comparable to tripping, sometimes i really wonder why we're even attempting to have this conversation. The sad part is, i remember sharing alot of these thoughts years ago before i started deciding to get good at other games besides smash bros. That's why it's so annoying to hear them repeated so much, it's like i know where it comes from.

I don't think anyone really argues that L-cancel was a particularly good example of a tech wall. But I don't think it's too much different from perfect blocking in fighters, or even powershielding in Melee -- technically, anytime you don't do it is sub-optimal, and the same argument can be made for any just-frame inputs or similar.

Maybe if L-cancelling was just holding the button down, and instead cancelled your frames for exchange for some of your shield power, it would have been made a decent mechanic. But if all aerials in melee were cancelled automatically, even I think it would have made some aspects pretty ridiculous. I don't think a 6-frame window and a simple button press was all that demanding, not enough to cry about anyway.

I feel that L-cancel can be different from those things because they just wasn't fun for me. It isn't as satisfying as parrying, FADCing, or even hit-confirming. Its because its too mandatory and about as routine as using aerials themselves. Yes im aware that this logic is flawed, but its how i feel regardless.

However this still allowed some pretty cool things to be cool in smash though. And I still honestly think if everyone could cancel every aerial automatically then that wouldn't be fun either. The "over-complicated input" Logic works both ways: Dont believe me?

Play street fighter 4 on 3ds.

Smash 4 is fine the way it is and it isn't designed to be balanced around l-canceling.

Melee is fine the way it is and i would honestly like to learn more about it. Give it another chance. I'm sick of all the hate going in all directions.

But really? L-canceling = tripping? I mean, tripping was REALLY worthless guys. I mean, failing to L cancel was at least your fault.

TLDR: L-canceling should not be brought up in smash 4 threads.

 

[BSP]

Technically, it does add a little bit of depth in that you cant try to mix up your shielding patterns and hope they screw up their L-cancel.

However it's so minute and unreliable that it's not worth the chafe of L-cancelling in the first place.

Not only that, it's ironic that the only (miniscule) depth the technique adds is giving the defensive player a method of screwing up the offensive one. Lol.

Are people actually arguing in favor of technical walls for the sake of barrier of entry? That really confuses me.

IKR?

Anyway, in regards to Smash 4's skill gap: the gap is going to be smaller because this is the easiest smash to pick up. That being said, I don't think it's too small, because the ceiling is technically infinite. Tech skill has a cap, but actually winning the match doesn't.

 

[LancerStaff]

This is the most ******** post I have ever seen on Smashboards.

Please. How's about instead of tossing around insults you try to contribute something?

Every single pro L-cancelling argument I've seen boils down to "hur dur you can fail it and noobs can get hits" which is exactly what tripping does.

However this still allowed some pretty cool things to be cool in smash though. And I still honestly think if everyone could cancel every aerial automatically then that wouldn't be fun either. The "over-complicated input" Logic works both ways: Dont believe me?

Play street fighter 4 on 3ds.

That's more to argue against Street Fighter's design then easy imputs. Now that everybody has essentially reached 20XX the faults become quite apparent.

 

[LightLV]

I feel that L-cancel can be different from those things because they just wasn't fun for me. It isn't as satisfying as parrying, FADCing, or even hit-confirming. Its because its too mandatory and about as routine as using aerials themselves. Yes im aware that this logic is flawed, but its how i feel regardless.

However this still allowed some pretty cool things to be cool in smash though. And I still honestly think if everyone could cancel every aerial automatically then that wouldn't be fun either. The "over-complicated input" Logic works both ways: Dont believe me?

Yeah, this is the main difference between L-cancelling any most other parallels you can draw with other games. I guess they programmed L-Cancelling as a way to preserve Z-cancelling from 64 without it being so ridiculously broken, but never really went any farther past that.

Auto-cancelling would be an easy solution, but i'm not sure it would have the effect everyone would intend for. They would have to put an actual mechanic into the game for it to make L-cancelling feel more natural.

Little nitpick but L-Cancelling is 7 frames not 6 for the window to do it.



That's because Fox and Falco are problems on themselves, even in Project Melee.


The issue is it doesn't really make the game better in any way.

It's there just to keep people out and nothing more.

7 frames is even easier than 6 frames...and that's why I really don't get the whole "just to keep people out" problem. How is it any different than perfect shielding, or recover tech, or short hop, or anything else that requires tough inputs? It was WAY harder to consistently short-hop with agile characters in Melee than it was to L-cancel anything. L-Cancel was relatively easy, with highly noticable effects. It's not like your aerial wont work if you don't L-cancel. It's not like your aerial hitbox is altered in any way by the act of doing or not doing it. I don't understand how it's keeping anyone out anymore than any other learned mechanic in the game. You guys are severely overblowing the effect here.

I think Fox and Falco are just the unforseen result of Melee overestimating the amount of advantage heavy characters had. However...Brawl had none of the movement freedom or combo potential that Melee had, and heavies were still grossly outmatched. It's taken them until smash 4 to finally provide them the KO potential they need to be even remotely viable in competitive play.

Please. How's about instead of tossing around insults you try to contribute something?

Every single pro L-cancelling argument I've seen boils down to "hur dur you can fail it and noobs can get hits" which is exactly what tripping does.



That's more to argue against Street Fighter's design then easy imputs. Now that everybody has essentially reached 20XX the faults become quite apparent.

I know this is a forum, and opinions are entitled to everyone...but please understand, what you're saying is so horrendously misinformed, it's really hard to muster a serious reply.

We understand, you don't think execution should be something you have to work for in videogames. And that's fine...but you seem to have no clue how the dynamics of it play out, and nothing you're saying is making any sense.

 

[Ohsm]

@ LancerStaff

Serious question, how old are you, 10?

By your logic every input is luck, like "oh I missed a short hop because I released my jump button too late and got punished for it."

Shorthopping confirmed worse than tripping guys.
Lancer with the knowledge bomb.

I know this is a forum, and opinions are entitled to everyone...but please understand, what you're saying is so horrendously misinformed, it's really hard to muster a serious reply.

We understand, you don't think execution should be something you have to work for in videogames. And that's fine...but you seem to have no clue how the dynamics of it play out, and nothing you're saying is making any sense.

This sums it up perfectly

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, this is the main difference between L-cancelling any most other parallels you can draw with other games. I guess they programmed L-Cancelling as a way to preserve Z-cancelling from 64 without it being so ridiculously broken, but never really went any farther past that.

Auto-cancelling would be an easy solution, but i'm not sure it would have the effect everyone would intend for. They would have to put an actual mechanic into the game for it to make L-cancelling feel more natural.



7 frames is even easier than 6 frames...and that's why I really don't get the whole "just to keep people out" problem. How is it any different than perfect shielding, or recover tech, or short hop, or anything else that requires tough inputs? It was WAY harder to consistently short-hop with agile characters in Melee than it was to L-cancel anything. L-Cancel was relatively easy, with highly noticable effects. It's not like your aerial wont work if you don't L-cancel. It's not like your aerial hitbox is altered in any way by the act of doing or not doing it. I don't understand how it's keeping anyone out anymore than any other learned mechanic in the game. You guys are severely overblowing the effect here.

I think Fox and Falco are just the unforseen result of Melee overestimating the amount of advantage heavy characters had. However...Brawl had none of the movement freedom or combo potential that Melee had, and heavies were still grossly outmatched. It's taken them until smash 4 to finally provide them the KO potential they need to be even remotely viable in competitive play.



I know this is a forum, and opinions are entitled to everyone...but please understand, what you're saying is so horrendously misinformed, it's really hard to muster a serious reply.

We understand, you don't think execution should be something you have to work for in videogames. And that's fine...but you seem to have no clue how the dynamics of it play out, and nothing you're saying is making any sense.

Because you might not have it as nailed down as much abs spending weeks doing that is a large part of Melee.

It does keep people out from playing the real game.

Fox and Falco are just terribly designed characters in Melee and PM. They fit the league of legends Irelia problem.

@ LancerStaff

Serious question, how old are you, 10?

By your logic every input is luck, like "oh I missed a short hop because I released my jump button to late and go punished for it."

Shorthopping confirmed worse than tripping guys.
Lancer with the knowledge bomb.

You aren't getting what he said in a way.

He's saying it forces a punish mechanic in a situation that wouldn't exist of aerials had l-Cancel'd frames initially.

 

[Alus]

Please. How's about instead of tossing around insults you try to contribute something?

Every single pro L-cancelling argument I've seen boils down to "hur dur you can fail it and noobs can get hits" which is exactly what tripping does.

Tripping isn't an element you control. Not trying to insult or bash or anything, just asking you to think about it a bit more.

That's more to argue against Street Fighter's design then easy imputs. Now that everybody has essentially reached 20XX the faults become quite apparent.

Err... What? Sorry I didn't catch what you said meant.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Let's keep this clean, people. Personal attacks are a great way to have a thread locked and get people reported.

Keeping with the OP, I'm fine with the skill gap. The tech that is there can be accessed without requiring a high degree of manual dexterity, but there are enough options that allow the best to really show newcomers something to strive for.

As I've gotten older, I find that my hands aren't able to pull off things of great manual dexterity as I used to and trying to consistently do so is painful. I've been playing games since I was 4, and after over a 25+ year experience in this hobby I find that I'd like to keep playing games I enjoy without developing Arthritis any faster.

 

[Ohsm]

You aren't getting what he said in a way.

He's saying it forces a punish mechanic in a situation that wouldn't exist of aerials had l-Cancel'd frames initially.

That's correct, but that's not the part that bugs me about his posts, he says l-cancel=tripping and that is simply not true,
sure both may force a punish mechanic but l-cancel is something I as a player can control, while tripping happens randomly during an initial dash.

I'm not here to defend l-cancel or anything, everyone can have there opinion on it, feel free to like or dislike it, but saying tripping=l-cancel is just plain wrong.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's correct, but that's not the part that bugs me about his posts, he says l-cancel=tripping and that is simply not true,
sure both may force a punish mechanic but l-cancel is something I as a player can controll, while tripping happens randomly during an initial dash.

I'm not here to defend l-cancel or anything, everyone can have there opinion on it, feel free to like or dislike it, but saying tripping=l-cancel is just plain wrong.

I can see similarities in how he said it.

I find tripping to be far worse but in a way they have similar core issues.

 

[Alus]

I can see similarities in how he said it.

I find tripping to be far worse but in a way they have similar core issues.

The same core issues that teching in general has? I mean why not make that 5x easier?
Or am I waaaaaaaaay off?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The same core issues that teching in general has? I mean why not make that 5x easier?
Or am I waaaaaaaaay off?

They both are punisher mechanics.

 

[Alus]

You can lose a stock from not teching.

Idk, depends on what you define "Punisher mechanics" as.

Sorry im kinda lost.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Are you ****ing serious @ #HBC | Red Ryu

Do not buy into this hogwash. Tripping takes away control from the player not because the other player read them or they made a bad choice. It is a random element programmed in the game specifically meant to keep the game from being competitive or taken seriously. An element MEANT to introduce randomness, which is what competitive fighters seek to eliminate.

Cut that **** out man.

You are smarter then this.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

A format of 2 stocks and rage definitely makes upsets much easier to happen. That I agree with. I think when someone wins a close game, it wasn't much of an outplay. But when someone solidly wins a game, then it means much more than it usually does.

This is word for word my thoughts. With the game only being 2 stocks, and due to the style of engine, it makes most matches LOOK closer than they really are. For me, there's always the feeling of going "back-and-forth" in battles than just 0-to-Death comboing someone. But as the game has grown over the past few months, I am starting to see a change in this. Player styles are becoming more dynamic and match-ups, although still appear close, are really not. This game is changing and changing quick and I am excited to see what the future brings. As the roster expands, so will the diverse types of match-ups.

 

[LightLV]

"punisher mechanic", eh.

...I think people just don't care anymore and are making up terms to fit what they would like to think is established terminology.

This is word for word my thoughts. With the game only being 2 stocks, and due to the style of engine, it makes most matches LOOK closer than they really are. For me, there's always the feeling of going "back-and-forth" in battles than just 0-to-Death comboing someone. But as the game has grown over the past few months, I am starting to see a change in this. Player styles are becoming more dynamic and match-ups, although still appear close, are really not. This game is changing and changing quick and I am excited to see what the future brings. As the roster expands, so will the diverse types of match-ups.

IMO you aren't winning a match until your opponent is in range to have a throw reach the blast zone. Smash 4 is literally one collective mass of comeback mechanics.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Are you ****ing serious @ #HBC | Red Ryu

Do not buy into this hogwash. Tripping takes away control from the player not because the other player read them or they made a bad choice. It is a random element programmed in the game specifically meant to keep the game from being competitive or taken seriously. An element MEANT to introduce randomness, which is what competitive fighters seek to element.

Cut that **** out man.

You are smarter then this.

They both punish you for something.

One for dashing.

The other for not pressing an additional button.

I find tripping personally worse because like you said, it is random.

 

[LightLV]

They both punish you for something.

One for dashing.

The other for not pressing an additional button.

I find tripping personally worse because like you said, it is random.

Once again, you are using the term "punish" out of the context it's usually applied to.

If a player uses a move that is unsafe and the opponent notices, he can be punished for it. The player who uses the move knows its punishable before he throws it out.

If a player uses a move that is unsafe, yet made safe after L-cancel, then he's not going to get punished for it. Once again, the player knows the move is unsafe before he throws it out, but makes the conscious decision to do it anyway because he can L-cancel it.


There is nothing random about this. There is nothing out of the player's control about this. The player got punished because he screwed up. He could have simply not put himself in that position by not using an unsafe move, the same as any player would who didn't know L-cancelling existed.

With tripping, nothing about that is in your control. it's pure RNG, you cannot plan around it. It is just astounding how you guys form your arguments. They are not even remotely the same thing.

 

[Ohsm]

They both punish you for something.
One for dashing.

Here you got punished just for playing the game.

The other for not pressing an additional button.

Well getting punished for not pressing/pressing the wrong button seems, well logical?
L-cancel might or might not be a stupid mechanic, but what you describe can be said for literally every action in the game.
You miss the input -> you get punished, isn't that a key part of a fighting game?


I just don't see this comperison.

 

[Alus]

He never said that the two were the exact same, or that they were both random. Just that apples and oranges were both fruits. and he could see a similarity if he tried.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

"punisher mechanic", eh.

...I think people just don't care anymore and are making up terms to fit what they would like to think is established terminology.



IMO you aren't winning a match until your opponent is in range to have a throw reach the blast zone. Smash 4 is literally one collective mass of comeback mechanics.

Not really.

You shouldn't trivialize the game because rage exists. Otherwise you show your venom for the game over really doing any real analysis.

Even if you were right here, you aren't.

Guess Marvel is a comeback game along with street fighter 4.

Once again, you are using the term "punish" out of the context it's usually applied to.

If a player uses a move that is unsafe and the opponent notices, he can be punished for it. The player who uses the move knows its punishable before he throws it out.

If a player uses a move that is unsafe, yet made safe after L-cancel, then he's not going to get punished for it. Once again, the player knows the move is unsafe before he throws it out, but makes the conscious decision to do it anyway because he can L-cancel it.


There is nothing random about this. There is nothing out of the player's control about this. The player got punished because he screwed up. He could have simply not put himself in that position by not using an unsafe move, the same as any player would who didn't know L-cancelling existed.

With tripping, nothing about that is in your control. it's pure RNG, you cannot plan around it. It is just astounding how you guys form your arguments. They are not even remotely the same thing.

I never argued it was random, just that it's only purpose is to punish you in a no choice situation.

Why would you never L-Cancel? The answer is you won't.

 

[Emblem Lord]

SFIV is very much about comebacks. One of it's many issues.

 

[Ohsm]

I never argued it was random, just that it's only purpose is to punish you in a no choice situation.

Why would you never L-Cancel? The answer is you won't.

You're right you never want to miss an l-cancel, but isn't that the same with every other action you perform?
Nearly every action in a video game is an arbitrary button press you don't want to miss.

You press A to jab, if you miss the A press you could get punished for it.
You press L/R/Z to cancel your landing lag, if you miss the button press you could get punished for it.
You press L/R to tech after you got knocked away, if you miss the button press you could get punished for it.

An imput not ment to be gotten every single time is virtually luck. L-cancelling is comparable to tripping, since the whole point is that somebody might screw up and the lesser player gets an attack in.

I don't get posts like this, every input is ment to be gotten every single time. Thats the nature of videogames, isn't it?
For example, the developer wants from you in situation x that you press button y to do the appropriate action, so part of your skill is to get your input y right every time the situation x comes up.

Btw why is there such a fuss for the l-cancel?

If you want to auto cancel all your aerials why not make teching automatic as well?

 

[LightLV]

I'm starting to think the skill gap in smash4 is about as big as it can be without the community at large imploding.

Not really.

You shouldn't trivialize the game because rage exists. Otherwise you show your venom for the game over really doing any real analysis.

Even if you were right here, you aren't.

Guess Marvel is a comeback game along with street fighter 4.

Do you want me to list the amount of Smash 4 mechanics altered or specifically designed for making comebacks? It doesn't matter how deep you decide to discuss smash 4, the game is simply designed that way. No point running from it.

Marvel is ABSOLUTELY a comeback game. It's chocked full of some of the dumbest design decisions ive ever seen in a fighting game. You won't find me praising Marvel 3 for its design decisions anymore than Smash 4. But Marvel 3 players don't pretend that their game isn't a circus, though. And despite the ridiculous aspects of it, there is respect to be had in the amount of technical skill required to pull it off.

Street fighter 4? Haha, no. Ultras aren't given absurd amounts of invincibility and startup like in most fighters, many of them take alot of execution to combo into, and every single one of them are unsafe on block or wiff. Chip damage puts you at a massive disadvantage for being at critical health. You have to pull some serious magic to make a miraculous comeback in SF4.

I never argued it was random, just that it's only purpose is to punish you in a no choice situation.

Why would you never L-Cancel? The answer is you won't.

You always have a choice. If you choose not to, and your opponent does, then you deal with what that means for you. It's all simply dependent on what you're confident in doing, what you're capable of doing, and how much time you devote to making sure you can do it. That's the heart of competitive fighters. That's the heart of competitive everything.

You can always perfect block in anime fighters. So why wouldnt you? Marth theoretically can counter 100% of the enemy's physical attacks against you. Why wouldn't you? You can powershield every projectile in Melee. Why wouldn't you?

You know what it sounds like? If a game offers you a superior option, by your logic it should do it automatically for you, because someone else being able to practice at it and do it better is unfair to you. Yes, that is the reason L-cancelling exists, so someone can do it better than you and have an advantage. I don't disagree that L-cancelling was silly in hindsight, but the reasons people are bashing it for really don't make any sense to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're right you never want to miss an l-cancel, but isn't that the same with every other action you perform?
Nearly every action in a video game is an arbitrary button press you don't want to miss.

You press A to jab, if you miss the A press you could get punished for it.
You press L/R/Z to cancel your landing lag, if you miss the button press you could get punished for it.
You press L/R to tech after you got knocked away, if you miss the button press you could get punished for it.



I don't get posts like this, every input is ment to be gotten every single time. Thats the nature of videogames, isn't it?
For example, the developer wants from you in situation x that you press button y, so part of your skill is to get your input y right every time.

Btw why is there such a fuss for the l-cancel?

If you want to auto cancel all your aerials why not make teching automatic as well?

This difference here is that it is an additional input on top of what is already there.

Do you really want to make jumping a 4 button combination? That seems unwise and really can drive people off.

This isn't like Power shielding where it requires player interaction from both of the players, you can do this without any other player input.

At that point, you are fighting the game itself and not the other player and that can take away from the experience.

I'm starting to think the skill gap in smash4 is about as big as it can be without the community at large imploding.



Do you want me to list the amount of Smash 4 mechanics altered or specifically designed for making comebacks? It doesn't matter how deep you decide to discuss smash 4, the game is simply designed that way. No point running from it.

Marvel is ABSOLUTELY a comeback game. It's chocked full of some of the dumbest design decisions ive ever seen in a fighting game. You won't find me praising Marvel 3 for its design decisions anymore than Smash 4. But Marvel 3 players don't pretend that their game isn't a circus, though. And despite the ridiculous aspects of it, there is respect to be had in the amount of technical skill required to pull it off.

Street fighter 4? Haha, no. Ultras aren't given absurd amounts of invincibility and startup like in most fighters, many of them take alot of execution to combo into, and every single one of them are unsafe on block or wiff. Chip damage puts you at a massive disadvantage for being at critical health. You have to pull some serious magic to make a miraculous comeback in SF4.




You always have a choice. If you choose not to, and your opponent does, then you deal with what that means for you. It's all simply dependent on what you're confident in doing, what you're capable of doing, and how much time you devote to making sure you can do it. That's the heart of competitive fighters. That's the heart of competitive everything.

You can always perfect block in anime fighters. So why wouldnt you? Marth theoretically can counter 100% of the enemy's physical attacks against you. Why wouldn't you? You can powershield every projectile in Melee. Why wouldn't you?

You know what it sounds like? If a game offers you a superior option, by your logic it should do it automatically for you, because someone else being able to practice at it and do it better is unfair to you.

I'll let ya deal with the above for my response to L-canceling, on top of me adding on with on a competitive level, you will make make the choices that you are implying here.

As for the comeback stuff, bring it then.

Rage and Lucario are honestly the only main issues for this and for Lucario I already don't agree with it rewarding him for being bad,

http://smashatlantic.com/2015/04/10/article-does-lucario-reward-bad-play/

And with Rage it can be a double edge sword in that it also rewards you for not dying and holding on.

 

[Ohsm]

This difference here is that it is an additional input on top of what is already there.

Do you really want to make jumping a 4 button combination? That seems unwise and really can drive people off.

This isn't like Power shielding where it requires player interaction from both of the players, you can do this without any other player input.

At that point, you are fighting the game itself and not the other player and that can take away from the experience.

What does the interaction from the other player has to do with techskill?
Techskill is the basic to open up options for you so you can use them to interact with the opponent.

I don't understand your differentiation between powershielding and l-cancel, there are both "not so easy" button presses, so for me they fall under the category techskill.
Powershield is superior to shield, l-cancel is superior to a normal aerial landing, so you never want to miss any of them.

And techskill (for me personaly) is a vital and important part of a competitive fighting game.
Dumbing down a game to much can drive people off as well.

You know what it sounds like? If a game offers you a superior option, by your logic it should do it automatically for you, because someone else being able to practice at it and do it better is unfair to you. Yes, that is the reason L-cancelling exists, so someone can do it better than you and have an advantage. I don't disagree that L-cancelling was silly in hindsight, but the reasons people are bashing it for really don't make any sense to me.

Really liking this part Light, hitting the nail on the head.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What does the interaction from the other player has to do with techskill?
Techskill is the basic to open up options for you so you can use them to interact with the opponent.

I don't understand your differentiation between powershielding and l-cancel, there are both "not so easy" button presses, so for me they fall under the category techskill.
Powershield is superior to shield, l-cancel is superior to a normal aerial landing, so you never want to miss any of them.

And techskill (for me personaly) is a vital and important part of a competitive fighting game.
Dumbing down a game to much can drive people off as well.



Really liking this part Light, hitting the nail on the head.

But Powershielding requires that you interact with your opponent from them throwing a move out. Your opponent can interact and cause you to not powershield with mix-ups.

This is depth.

L-Cancelling opens options, but why not just axe it off and cut lag in half. You get the same game at a top level without that extra barrier.

This is not depth, this is a needless barrier that hinders the game.