Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small?

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Ohsm

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But Powershielding requires that you interact with your opponent from them throwing a move out. Your opponent can interact and cause you to not powershield with mix-ups.

This is depth.

L-Cancelling opens options, but why not just axe it off and cut lag in half. You get the same game at a top level without that extra barrier.

This is not depth, this is a needless barrier that hinders the game.
For the l-cancel you need to interact with the opponent as well, heck for every action you need to interact with your opponent, if that wasn't the case the game would be pretty pointless.

Let's say:

You throw out an aerial at your opponent then there are 3 different outcomes:

Miss, hit or hit on shield; This changes the timing of l-cancel so you have to anticipate the opponents reaction to get your l-cancel right.
Now the opponent guesses that you approach with an aerial, he could throw out a light shield to mess your timing up so you miss the cancel and the opponent created a punish situation because he cleverly interacted with you.

L-cancel is barrier you're right, some like it, some don't like it, but I wouldn't call it no depth.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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For the l-cancel you need to interact with the opponent as well, heck for every action you need to interact with your opponent, if that wasn't the case the game would be pretty pointless.

Let's say:

You throw out an aerial at your opponent then there are 3 different outcomes:

Miss, hit or hit on shield; This changes the timing of l-cancel so you have to anticipate the opponents reaction to get your l-cancel right.
Now the opponent guesses that you approach with an aerial, he could throw out a light shield to mess your timing up so you miss the cancel and the opponent created a punish situation because he cleverly interacted with you.

L-cancel is barrier you're right, some like it, some don't like it, but I wouldn't call it no depth.
You L-cancel in a shorter 4 frame window and you bypass all of these interactions. If it mattered stronger then the situational awareness with that along with the tech skill arguments are the only reasons I see to find merit in it.

But in the end, it doesn't remove the issue of lack of choice.

As much as I do not like how crouch cancelling removes hitstun, it has some choice, you give up something for it and make decisions.

With Wavedashing, I have decisions and interaction with my opponent while using tech skill.

With Pivoting, I do the same.

Same with Edge trumping.

Same with shielding.

Same with empty short hops.

That is why I do not like L-cancelling, it lacks real depth of choice.
 

Kurri ★

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You can always perfect block in anime fighters. So why wouldnt you? Marth theoretically can counter 100% of the enemy's physical attacks against you. Why wouldn't you? You can powershield every projectile in Melee. Why wouldn't you?
The difference between those and L-Canceling though, is that they may not be the best option. When is L-Canceling ever a bad option?

Perfect shielding may take up meter or push you too far back to retaliate.

Counter may not be the best attack to use.

Your enemy may want you to powershield to screw you over.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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The difference between those and L-Canceling though, is that they may not be the best option. When is L-Canceling ever a bad option?

Perfect shielding may take up meter or push you too far back to retaliate.

Counter may not be the best attack to use.

Your enemy may want you to powershield to screw you over.
Well...in smash it doesn't quite have that same risk.

But in the end, it still require prediction in a game with more free movement than other fighters, so in the end it still requires more interaction on both players parts.
 

platologic

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Miss, hit or hit on shield; This changes the timing of l-cancel so you have to anticipate the opponents reaction to get your l-cancel right.
Now the opponent guesses that you approach with an aerial, he could throw out a light shield to mess your timing up so you miss the cancel and the opponent created a punish situation because he cleverly interacted with you.

L-cancel is barrier you're right, some like it, some don't like it, but I wouldn't call it no depth.
This claim is utterly meaningless unless you can quantify that depth. Just because depth exists doesn't make it good.
 

Baby_Sneak

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I really like what Red Royu and LightLV are bringing to the table in their post and arguments; discussions like these always help on fighting game theory and just learning the game in general.

So far, I've been leaning towards LightLV. I've played a ton of fighters as well as brawl, smash 4, and PM. I understand how rewarding and satisfying it is to really have a grip on your character, with all the cancels, feints, combos, and movement along with a list of other things. However, I'm against making tech walls just so one type of player is benefited. Technical skill is needed in any action video game; it doesn't need any additional emphasis. I think the char instead of the mechanics should lead the way in terms of technical ceiling. In usf4, melee, marvel whatever, anime fighters, or even brawl (people don't even know how technical Yoshi or my man ROB was) there are characters of many types for people to main and use from. What people don't know is that the games (melee included, show me some insane technical stuff w/o space animals and ice climbers/ falcon) themselves weren't really technical, It was the characters that represented the game's potential.

TLDR: tech walls r not gud. Let chars do their job of distributing play style diversity.
 
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LightLV

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L-Cancelling opens options, but why not just axe it off and cut lag in half. You get the same game at a top level without that extra barrier.

This is not depth, this is a needless barrier that hinders the game.
It hinders your game, because you don't like it. It is not a hindrance to anyone who wishes to use it, in fact it allows more options.

"Hey, i can combo off this if I L-cancel"
"Hey, i can approach with this if i L-cancel"

What you're doing is arguing the validity of a feature in the game, available to every character, simply because you don't think you should have to learn it.

You get the same game at a top level without that extra barrier.
And again, this is the reason you don't like it. Why do you believe getting to the top should be barrierless? Are you only motivated to be good at something when the path is laced with candy?

Let me ask you and everyone else a question. There's an excellent chance that at one point, you played Melee, and you didn't even know L-Cancelling existed. Wavedash too. When you found out about it, did it feel like it opened up another world of possibilities? Or did it feel like you were overwhelmed with something you'd never be able to do?
 

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@ #HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm fairly certain he's not arguing that getting to top level play should be easy, but things, such as L-Cancelling, shouldn't bar someone from reaching that.

"Hey I can combo off this if I L-Cancel" is true and all, but there's never a case of "Hey I can combo off of this if I don't L-Cancel" L-Cancelling is never a choice, you never not want to do it, and at that point you may as well just automatically cancel all moves. If L-Cancel actually came with some risks, it be perfectly okay.

For example, Guilty Gear has rapid cancels, you can cancel out of any move and combo into whatever you want, but it comes at the price of using your meter. Immediately the player is now forced with a choice, "Do I rapid cancel now and continue my combo, or do I save my meter for something later?"

This isn't the case with L-Cancel. I landed my aerial? L-Cancel. My opponent shielded? L-Cancel. There's no point where you say, "That L-Cancel may be a bit risky"
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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It hinders your game, because you don't like it. It is not a hindrance to anyone who wishes to use it, in fact it allows more options.

"Hey, i can combo off this if I L-cancel"
"Hey, i can approach with this if i L-cancel"

What you're doing is arguing the validity of a feature in the game, available to every character, simply because you don't think you should have to learn it.



And again, this is the reason you don't like it. Why do you believe getting to the top should be barrierless? Are you only motivated to be good at something when the path is laced with candy?

Let me ask you and everyone else a question. There's an excellent chance that at one point, you played Melee, and you didn't even know L-Cancelling existed. Wavedash too. When you found out about it, did it feel like it opened up another world of possibilities? Or did it feel like you were overwhelmed with something you'd never be able to do?
I hated it and still do, it's partly why I play Peach but I can still do it.

I'm not asking for no barriers, I'm asking them to add real depth a point you keep ignoring.

If L-Cancelling added real depth I wouldn't be so strongly against it.
 

Ohsm

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This claim is utterly meaningless unless you can quantify that depth. Just because depth exists doesn't make it good.
This answer is somewhat contrary, first you say that my claim needs quantifyed depth and then you say that it's not good anyway even if it has (some) depth.

It's your opinion that it's bad and that's ok but saying that my claim is utterly meaningless is a bold move.

L-canel is not braindead, as I mention above you need to adjust your timing depending what your opponent does, that's a fact.
Besides that there is the difference between a soft and hard press, you can for example do a hard press to buffer a tech if you fear a quick counter from your opponent or on the other hand do a soft press to prevent the 20 frame tech lock window to happen.

I agree that l-cancel is not really a good mechanic but I still wouldn't say it has zero depth.
Some like it, some hate it and that's perfectly fine.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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This answer is somewhat contrary, first you say that my claim needs quantifyed depth and then you say that it's not good anyway even if it has (some) depth.

It's your opinion that it's bad and that's ok but saying that my claim is utterly meaningless is a bold move.

L-canel is not braindead, as I mention above you need to adjust your timing depending what your opponent does, that's a fact.
Besides that there is the difference between a soft and hard press, you can for example do a hard press to buffer a tech if you fear a quick counter from your opponent or on the other hand do a soft press to prevent the 20 frame tech lock window to happen.

I agree that l-cancel is not really a good mechanic but I still wouldn't say it has zero depth.
Some like it, some hate it and that's perfectly fine.
Like I said before, do it in a smaller 4 frame window and you can cover every single option and situation.
 

Alus

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Let me ask you and everyone else a question. There's an excellent chance that at one point, you played Melee, and you didn't even know L-Cancelling existed. Wavedash too. When you found out about it, did it feel like it opened up another world of possibilities? Or did it feel like you were overwhelmed with something you'd never be able to do?
I wanted to use this argument. But the thing is, It compares l-canceling to other mechanics in every game. And the case is different for me.When i landed a FADC for my first time out of training, I felt like i got a reward. L-canceling feels like i just started playing the game, like the game has just been unlocked.

Its hard for me to explain.

I mean, l-canceling is nowhere near as bad as getting into CS:GO for the first time in the present, and this kinda thing happens to any game with depth over time. Yes im frustrated that people are still saying it brings nothing. But *shrug*.
 

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It's not braindead but it's still bad. Okay, you changed your timing, but you're still supposed to L-Cancel. The person blocking on the other hand has choice. Like you said, they can either hard press, or soft press and there are significantly different consequences depending on what you choose.

Teching is similar to L-Cancel because it's based on timing, but it's a good mechanic because there is a choice to it. Do I tech in place? Do I tech-roll? Do I not tech at all and perform a get-up attack?
 
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LightLV

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I'm fairly certain he's not arguing that getting to top level play should be easy, but things, such as L-Cancelling, shouldn't bar someone from reaching that.
But why. The why is the reason we cannot agree. "Bad design" and "not real depth" is completely subjective here. If he doesn't like it, that's fine, but I will never agree that it's bad design simply on the basis he doesn't want to learn it. There are plenty of people who completely disagree, and those aspects of Melee is why it's still relevant 14 years from its release.

This isn't the case with L-Cancel. I landed my aerial? L-Cancel. My opponent shielded? L-Cancel. There's no point where you say, "That L-Cancel may be a bit risky"
I don't see how this makes L-cancelling a bad thing, just because it's a universally good feature. Again, Guilty Gear and Blazblue also have instant blocking, which is also a universally good thing to always do -- it can make previously safe moves unsafe, and it builds a ton of meter. Is it a bad mechanic because you should never not do it?

I hated it and still do, it's partly why I play Peach but I can still do it.

I'm not asking for no barriers, I'm asking them to add real depth a point you keep ignoring.

If L-Cancelling added real depth I wouldn't be so strongly against it.
I'm ignoring that point because it isn't true. It's an opinion at best.

I wanted to use this argument. But the thing is, It compares l-canceling to other mechanics in every game. And the case is different for me.When i landed a FADC for my first time out of training, I felt like i got a reward. L-canceling feels like i just started playing the game, like the game has just been unlocked.

Its hard for me to explain.

I mean, l-canceling is nowhere near as bad as getting into CS:GO for the first time in the present, and this kinda thing happens to any game with depth over time. Yes im frustrated that people are still saying it brings nothing. But *shrug*.
I think this is entirely dependent on when you discovered it. If it was after Melee's time, then it's very likely to have the opposite effect, because Brawl had already been released, and the community now had a reason to officially split.

The first time someone revealed L-cancelling to me, it near re-awakened Melee for me. Link's D-air can recover twice as fast?! Suddenly, characters like Bowser and Gannondorf felt alot more interesting. I found myself trying new things and characters i never thought twice about trying. I use it on my friends, they ask questions, suddenly we all had new techniques to practice. This had to have been a year or two before Brawl was released.

That's a feeling that Brawl and Smash 4 will unfortunately never be able to recreate, because down the line, Sakurai decided that a consequence of that feeling -- you seeming unreachable to your opponent-- wasn't worth the thrill of feeling like the game itself still had potential to be unlocked.

Ironically, i know people who feel the same way about Smash 4, since it removed all the ATs that developed through brawl. Of course, Brawl's meta evolved in very different direction from Melee's, but it's still interesting.
 

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It's not braindead but it's still bad. Okay, you changed your timing, but you're still supposed to L-Cancel. The person blocking on the other hand has choice. Like you said, they can either hard press, or soft press and there are significantly different consequences depending on what you choose.

Teching is similar to L-Cancel because it's based on timing, but it's a good mechanic because there is a choice to it. Do I tech in place? Do I tech-roll? Do I not tech at all and perform a get-up attack?
Unless you are off stage which is what I was talking about.

Like why can't it be hold L to tech. Why do you have to time it?

But I don't even know about your opinion on that.

Also in General why does it need timing?

Edit: nvm I figured out why.
 
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platologic

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This answer is somewhat contrary, first you say that my claim needs quantifyed depth and then you say that it's not good anyway even if it has (some) depth.
You misunderstood. I said that the existence of depth does not make a mechanic good, as even bad mechanics can have some small amount of "depth." Meaning that your claim is insufficient to prove your point. You need to quantify the depth before your claim is legitimate enough to warrant further discussion.
 

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Instant block still relies on choosing the proper way to block. You can't instant block a high attack while crouching. L-Cancel? There's never a bad time or way to do it.
 

LightLV

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There's never a bad time or way to do it.
I keep asking why this matters at all. It's not like L-cancelling renders you invincible, or makes every attack safe, or lets you infinite people. It's not a button-press mechanic that magically makes you beat people.

If you're blocking low against a high attack, you're doing it wrong anyway. I don't see how this changes anything -- if you're blocking at all, you should be instant blocking. Why isn't it bad.

The only limiting factor in L-cancelling is the player's ability to do it, it gives an adequate reward, and it's available to every character in the game. You cannot give me an answer to that question that makes L-cancelling an inherently bad mechanic. You simply can't, without injecting your opinion into it.


You say there's never a bad time or way to do it, but that's falsely saying there's no risk-reward applied to it, because there is. The risk is your execution skill, and the consequences what follow if you intend for it to activate and miscalculate. The reward is obvious, you recover faster after aerials.
 
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Alus

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It's not risk v reward when taking a risk and not taking a risk could potentially have the same result.

You get punished for not l canceling the same as if you chose to l cancel and failed.
 

PCHU

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So...how about that skill gap?

I don't really think arguing about l-canceling really does much good now since regardless of whether or not it may possibly contribute toward the depth of Melee, there's so much more that goes into the game that could be discussed rather than talking about something people have been whining about since before Smash 4 even came around that isn't really that tough compared to a lot of other techniques

Smash 4, on its own merit, actually does have a bit of depth.
It has pivot tilts and smashes, which is actually pretty huge since you couldn't do that back in Melee (the closest thing was the predecessor to perfect pivot, which was equally difficult and not as widely applicable), not to mention you've got RAR which used to be limited to characters who could reverse cancel out of a B move, and less so to crouch cancel dash -> turnaround -> bair.
One thing that gets to me is how easy perfect shielding is and how low the reward is at times; I'm fine with playing heavies in PM not only because they've got the tools necessary to actually compete with better characters, but also because of the properties of powershielding -- dealing with projectile games is much more tolerable rather than playing the waiting game.
Even still, it isn't as basic as a lot of people say it is; heck, some characters can even crouch cancel their dash.
A fact some people take for granted is command grabs -- any sort of aerial command grab is a huge step forward considering Melee's neutral which had no such thing.
It may not be as complex given the overall mechanic difference between the games, but I think it'd do us all at least a little good to discuss this topic further.

Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small, or is it just small comparatively speaking?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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So...how about that skill gap?

I don't really think arguing about l-canceling really does much good now since regardless of whether or not it may possibly contribute toward the depth of Melee, there's so much more that goes into the game that could be discussed rather than talking about something people have been whining about since before Smash 4 even came around that isn't really that tough compared to a lot of other techniques

Smash 4, on its own merit, actually does have a bit of depth.
It has pivot tilts and smashes, which is actually pretty huge since you couldn't do that back in Melee (the closest thing was the predecessor to perfect pivot, which was equally difficult and not as widely applicable), not to mention you've got RAR which used to be limited to characters who could reverse cancel out of a B move, and less so to crouch cancel dash -> turnaround -> bair.
One thing that gets to me is how easy perfect shielding is and how low the reward is at times; I'm fine with playing heavies in PM not only because they've got the tools necessary to actually compete with better characters, but also because of the properties of powershielding -- dealing with projectile games is much more tolerable rather than playing the waiting game.
Even still, it isn't as basic as a lot of people say it is; heck, some characters can even crouch cancel their dash.
A fact some people take for granted is command grabs -- any sort of aerial command grab is a huge step forward considering Melee's neutral which had no such thing.
It may not be as complex given the overall mechanic difference between the games, but I think it'd do us all at least a little good to discuss this topic further.
I like what you are asking and contributing a lot more for trying to ask the neutral question.

Props to ya for this.
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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"Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small?"

Affirmative, everyone wrote a mini novel inside this particular thread it insinuates, giving sanctuary towards endeavoring Smash-4 which baffles myself as to why endeavor-ate this video-game, rolls are safe, no existence of Shied stun and everything is downgraded towards technicality wise. However, to suffice your presumptuous? question with the uttermost simplistic terminology. Yes.
 
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platologic

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Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small, or is it just small comparatively speaking?
Define "too small." Are we using Melee as our baseline for comparison? What negative effects would be caused by the skill gap being too small? Is there any real-life evidence of these negative effects occurring in tournament settings (which, I assume, is the only place the skill gap matters)?
 

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L-Cancelling and Instant blocking are different because not instant blocking, as in performing a regular block, doesn't yield the same result as completely missing an Instant block. Whereas missing an L-Cancel is literally the same as having never L-Cancelled at all. Had missing an L-Cancel lead to an actual punishment, let say double the landing lag, it'd actually then be a good mechanic, but at the current moment, it's just noise
 

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Instant Block/Power Shield has depth when you look at it like rhythm. Here are some examples.

1. A jumps in on top of the opponent. B expects an attack and shields in hope it's a power shield. Nope, it's an empty jump. B has committed to shield, and A can grab the opponent.

2. A does a telegraphable move like Flare Blitz. Power shielding the move is the best thing to do as you can get most of your punishes there instead of a normal shield.

3. Same scenario as #1, but now A does indeed do an attack on jump in. Depending on the attacks, this can go two ways if B shields. A does a quick move and gets power shielded. A is screwed. A does a slower move, but it autocancels on startup. B commits to shield and is screwed.

L-Canceling is a rhythm too, but it's more like a solo than the duet that power shield is involved in.

@ #HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu / Wuffle, what do you mean by Fox and Falco being problematic? I enjoy reading your posts so I'd like to hear it from you.
 

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I realize this was ages away, but I played Wario in Brawl, so I pretty much never tripped. :p
 
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Vkrm

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L-Cancelling and Instant blocking are different because not instant blocking, as in performing a regular block, doesn't yield the same result as completely missing an Instant block. Whereas missing an L-Cancel is literally the same as having never L-Cancelled at all. Had missing an L-Cancel lead to an actual punishment, let say double the landing lag, it'd actually then be a good mechanic, but at the current moment, it's just noise
Can you elaborate? There isn't a single move in melee that is safe on shield when failing to cancel. Doubling the lag wouldn't really do much. Are you thinking its better because its more in line with traditional fighters or something?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Prach's fair on block is so much of a plus ok shield in Melee, if done right a grab is garenteed. I'm dead serious about that.

Instant Block/Power Shield has depth when you look at it like rhythm. Here are some examples.

1. A jumps in on top of the opponent. B expects an attack and shields in hope it's a power shield. Nope, it's an empty jump. B has committed to shield, and A can grab the opponent.

2. A does a telegraphable move like Flare Blitz. Power shielding the move is the best thing to do as you can get most of your punishes there instead of a normal shield.

3. Same scenario as #1, but now A does indeed do an attack on jump in. Depending on the attacks, this can go two ways if B shields. A does a quick move and gets power shielded. A is screwed. A does a slower move, but it autocancels on startup. B commits to shield and is screwed.

L-Canceling is a rhythm too, but it's more like a solo than the duet that power shield is involved in.

@ #HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu / Wuffle, what do you mean by Fox and Falco being problematic? I enjoy reading your posts so I'd like to hear it from you.
They are Jack of all trade characters and master of a few in Melee.

Ok top of that they have tools that are grossly unfair to the rest of the cast.

Shine is a move for Fox that can do multiple things in one move.

Gimp, combo, combo breaker, reflect, shield pressure.

Did I also mention they have some of the best KO potential in Melee?

Want me to go on?

They out camp the cast, their hitboxes are very large compared to mon sword characters.

They also have fast running speed.

Their recoveries are better than 50% of the cast.

Downside, they fast fall....uh ok though Falcon Roy etc suffer that worse without all those upsides.

They are Jack of all trade characters and master of a few.

And then you think, gee I wonder why Fox and Falco can't jump out of shine anymore in Smash 4, or cancel end lag of lasers, or have less KO power, and nerfed range in hitboxes.
 

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Can you elaborate? There isn't a single move in melee that is safe on shield when failing to cancel. Doubling the lag wouldn't really do much. Are you thinking its better because its more in line with traditional fighters or something?
I think you got confused by what I was saying, no worries, I posted that from my phone so it probably came out wrong.

I wasn't talking about a move being safe on sheild, but rather the risk-reward of L-Cancelling (in Smash Bros) vs Instant Blocking (in other fighters such as GGXRD or Blazblue). My point was that L-Cancelling, at the moment, is a bad mechanic because there is no choice on whether or not you should L-Cancel and that the risk-reward was insignificant.

In Guilty Gear, it's always a better idea to instant block because of the rewards you receive, but it comes at the risk of messing up your defense. The punishment for not instant blocking is that you're just using a basic block. The punishment for completely missing an instant block is a fist (or kick, or over-sized lighter). Furthermore these games generally have a third defense option, Faultless Defense, which takes up meter for an even better defense.

With L-Cancelling, there's no risk in doing it, you're not giving anything up when you attempt to do it. If L-Cancelling was changed, lets say give it even more landing lag than if you have never L-Cancelled in the first place, it would then actually add a form of risk.
 

J_the_Man

Smash Apprentice
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NNID
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What's so bad about having a smaller skill gap? Wouldn't a smaller skill gap imply parity and a much larger pool of players who are threats to take nationals on a frequent basis? In my humble opinion, I would welcome that. Rather than watching a small number of players you could count on one hand constantly winning tournaments, to watch the ups and downs of top players sparring for championships, one day to go down early and the next day make an impressive run? Exciting.

I'm reminded of watching 6wx's run through loser's bracket at Apex. That was exciting seeing him upset some top players and give Dabuz a run for his money.
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
"Is the skill gap in Smash 4 too small?"

Affirmative, everyone wrote a mini novel inside this particular thread it insinuates, giving sanctuary towards endeavoring Smash-4 which baffles myself as to why endeavor-ate this video-game, rolls are safe, no existence of Shied stun and everything is downgraded towards technicality wise. However, to suffice your presumptuous? question with the uttermost simplistic terminology. Yes.
Holy verbosity, Batman! We're on an internet forum dedicated to a children's video game, you don't have to try to make yourself sound smart.

To counter your actual argument, low shield stun and safer rolls don't make the skill gap smaller at all. Honestly, they probably make the skill gap larger, since getting good requires learning how to punish overzealous rollers or people who sit in their shields all day, and also learning to stop relying on rolling because you will be punished for it.
 
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LionKeith

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
22
I love these threads. They really draw out the worst in the community. Onward and vocally come the skill-is-bad crowd and the melee-elitists (both of which are our community's cancer).

These posts frequently exclude the facts that the best player in the game rarely drops a match, and the game has only been out for like 5 months. As if the top regional smash pros have had a long time to invent the meta and establish that they are actually the best. People also dismiss that one of the characters in the game was so good, that a HUGE nerf left him in the top 5, if not still one of the best. (inb4 hes not top anymore, just you wait)

I feel like these threads are frequently written by low/mid-level smash 4 players (Read: not ranked as a top 50 player worldwide) who are aspiring to get to a high level, but are becoming frustrated when they lose to opponents who they have somehow (probably incorrectly) measured as 'significantly worse' or "bad". If you're dropping games to scrubs, its not the game, its you.

Tl;dr

S4, like every other entry, has a very high skill cap and is a very mental game. If you are losing, you need to practice, not rationalize your defeat by saying, "It's a low skill cap game."
 

TheAnomaly

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
55
Location
Barbados
I've said before that they are two skill gaps. one between a new player and the competitive minimum and one between the competitive minimum and the top players (refer to my earlier post for definitions http://smashboards.com/threads/is-the-skill-gap-in-smash-4-too-small.400051/page-6#post-19095950). As long as the first skill gap is not too large and the second one isnt too small then we have a perfectly viable game. IMO smash 4 has both areas well covered.

Techs exist so competitive players will still have more to offer than a complete newcomer or the average player. The techs are easy enough to pick up so newcomers are not frightened away by the skill barrier. Top players applying the techs absolutely murder less skilled players so the distance is still noticeably there. Glide tossing pressure or diddy mains using the monkey flip into a b reverse popgun cancel to dodge moves are some of the best examples. Do I need to know these techniques to play at a competitive level? Nope but learning them suddenly adds a whole new dimension to my game doesn't it. Whereas i would dare you to find anyone who can be competitive in melee without being competent at wavedashing, and L-cancelling and dash dancing.

And on the topic of the whole L cancelling debate I simply ask you all this: Would melee drasticaly change if L cancelling did not exist but all moves had the reduced landing lag without that extra button press? While top players may not be machines, they rarely miss L-cancels and the times they do are relatively negligible. This means melee's core game play would remain unchanged but allow more people access to it. Therefore the only change I foresee is more players playing melee because of the lowered skill floor which can only be a good thing right?
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
3,123
Holy verbosity, Batman! We're on an internet forum dedicated to a children's video game, you don't have to try to make yourself sound smart.

To counter your actual argument, low shield stun and safer rolls don't make the skill gap smaller at all. Honestly, they probably make the skill gap larger, since getting good requires learning how to punish overzealous rollers or people who sit in their shields all day, and also learning to stop relying on rolling because you will be punished for it.
"You don't have to try to make yourself sound smart". Right, "try" and "sound" well alright then my behavior is the act of a moron's ways then.

"To counter your actual argument, low shield stun and safer rolls don't make the skill gap smaller at all."

Humph, so you believe that low or "none" shield stun and safe rolls don't leave a question mark if the game is even worthy to be called technical, overrated absolutely, and "better" than other games. I checked guides and gave the game a chance it disappointed there was even people from Reddit giving up hope. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2vk8w1/opinion_brawl_is_a_better_competitive_game_than/

The link is just showing that Brawl was better yet people stay with Smash-4 for various reasons.

"Honestly, they probably make the skill gap larger, since getting good requires learning how to punish overzealous rollers or people who sit in their shields all day, and also learning to stop relying on rolling because you will be punished for it."

What? You just wrote in your previous sentences that safe rolls don't change the skill gap, now you're writing safe rolls can be punished which shows it changed the skill gap by writing you can punish safe rolls. I've watched A LOT of Smash-4 videos which contained a lot of agony to watch them, but my point is I haven't seen anyone punish rolls, like the only person I can view that could kind of would be Mac or Sonic and I haven't seen your theory about punishing safe rolls man. Shield stun doesn't exist in Smash4, you could just throw random moves and not be punished compared to BRAWL. Also a smart player would know how to abuse safe rolls and I've fought some in the past. The only way I could ever get inside was have a projectile character like Link, don't write "I don't know what I'm doing" I do, every-time I would try to bait, they would just rolls and grab which wouldn't work but my point is safe rolls are a huge flaw in Smash-4 just like "tripping" in Brawl.

I don't see what you're writing to be seem valid, I need proof that you can punish this and that when the game has no shield stun and safe rolls. This just screams bs, I can't count how may times people are complaining about Smash-4 mechanics now than even Brawl, which was a huge decrease towards people complaining. All I ever heard and read about Brawl was (ban MK) (get rid of tripping), where as Smash-4 is (Nerf Greninja), (Nerf Diddy), (Nerf Sheik), get rid of safe rolls, fix the air dodge mechanics which Brawl's was better), get rid of this technique that Nintendo will even do just so you all wont see others as higher as higher, this game defines communism towards how everything must be equal oh wait, no. Let's see, what else do people complain about, (make Smash-4 faster), (make Smash-4 get rid of secret items like Peach Bomb omb which rarely happens). So, a game like Brawl which had like two problems, MK, and tripping now compared to Smash-4 which has more problems, nerf this, ban this is seen better than other games right? Here's the kicker, Diddy is the new MK and also Sheik is a runner up, heck now Luigi which people are getting (tried of) which is completely puzzling to myself. Face it, Smash-4 is not all that cracked up to be and it's not. The game has nothing but basic basic 2008 technology from when Brawl was the main attraction, yes Brawl. Thanks.
 
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platologic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
29
And on the topic of the whole L cancelling debate I simply ask you all this: Would melee drasticaly change if L cancelling did not exist but all moves had the reduced landing lag without that extra button press?
This. It was a mistake to begin with, but some people are so used to it that they'll fight tooth and nail to keep it.
 

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
450
Location
Narnia, Canada
Once you realize that l canceling is merely a satisfaction mechanism that gives the illusion of doing something meaningful when you push a button, your soul will be set free. Granted there's a teeny weeny bit of counterplay pertaining to sheid angeling, but that will rarely matter so you're better off angeling your sheid to avoid being sheid stabbed. Though I guess the best lies often have a grain of truth to them.
 
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