Is SmashWiki incorrect about combos?

[Quillion]

SmashWiki has this little gem on the Combos page:

The combo system returns in Super Smash Bros. 4, being closer to how it was in 64 and Melee

Except that everyone's been having a really hard time trying to get in combos because comboability has been reduced for all moves due to higher base knockback, and the air dodge still acts pretty soon out of hitstun.

We're not getting the 50%-or-so combos that we did in Melee and 64, so maybe this is just a misinformation that needs to be removed. It could just be a commentary on one of the early builds shown at stuff like E3.

 

[LancerStaff]

SmashWiki has this little gem on the Combos page:



Except that everyone's been having a really hard time trying to get in combos because comboability has been reduced for all moves due to higher base knockback, and the air dodge still acts pretty soon out of hitstun.

We're not getting the 50%-or-so combos that we did in Melee and 64, so maybe this is just a misinformation that needs to be removed. It could just be a commentary on one of the early builds shown at stuff like E3.

Sounds right to me. It returns, didn't say how well.

 

[Quillion]

Sounds right to me. It returns, didn't say how well.

It said "closer to how it was in 64 and Melee". That's clearly not true.

 

[Doval]

You can't interrupt hit stun after a fixed amount of time using an air dodge or attack, so yes.

However, calling it a combo system is a strange choice of words considering most attacks don't cancel into the next. Combos happen because the opponent is stunned and that's the bare minimum for a fighting game to not devolve into Super Armor DPS competitions.

 

[popsofctown]

Melee and 64 don't have a "combo system". That's buzzspeak drivel.

So yeah, neither does smash 4.

 

[LancerStaff]

It said "closer to how it was in 64 and Melee". That's clearly not true.

Closer then Brawl's, which was nearly nonexistent. So it's correct.

 

[Quillion]

Closer then Brawl's, which was nearly nonexistent. So it's correct.

If it's slightly more present instead of nonexistent, it's still not closer to 64 or Melee.

 

[Terotrous]

Smashwiki is typically incorrect about almost everything.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If it's slightly more present instead of nonexistent, it's still not closer to 64 or Melee.

How is not closer just because the great MR nobody quillion is telling us it is so??

 

[Quillion]

Smashwiki is typically incorrect about almost everything.

Which is weird; isn't SmashWiki run by the same people as SmashBoards? The SmashBoarders should be doing their duty and making sure SmashWiki isn't incorrect.

 

[Terotrous]

Which is weird; isn't SmashWiki run by the same people as SmashBoards? The SmashBoarders should be doing their duty and making sure SmashWiki isn't incorrect.

People are just too lazy to update it.

 

[Quillion]

People are just too lazy to update it.

Why? Most pages are editable when you're not logged in.

 

[yume_nikki]

Combos in smash are chains of hits performed while the opponent still has hitstun.

In Smash 64, Melee and Smash 4 hitstun can’t be cancelled at all (well, there are some minor exceptions in Smash 4 but they don’t seem relevant atm). So the time window you have to connect follow ups depends on the hitstun inflicted by your attack, which is variable.

In Brawl you could cancel most hitstun with an airdodge since frame 13 and since frame 24 with an aerial, so the frame window to perform combos is constant, and also quite small. Only weak/fixed hitstun couldn’t be cancelled, I think.

So saying that Smash 4 combos are closer to Melee/64 than Brawl isn’t wrong at all, despite not being very accurate, since options during hitstun/hitlag are different in each game (SDI, DI, vectoring, etc.).

Btw, smashwiki doesn’t have any discussion page?

 

[Quillion]

Combos in smash are chains of hits performed while the opponent still has hitstun.

In Smash 64, Melee and Smash 4 hitstun can’t be cancelled at all (well, there are some minor exceptions in Smash 4 but they don’t seem relevant atm). So the time window you have to connect follow ups depends on the hitstun inflicted by your attack, which is variable.

In Brawl you could cancel most hitstun with an airdodge since frame 13 and since frame 24 with an aerial, so the frame window to perform combos is constant, and also quite small. Only weak/fixed hitstun couldn’t be cancelled, I think.

So saying that Smash 4 combos are closer to Melee/64 than Brawl isn’t wrong at all, despite not being very accurate, since options during hitstun/hitlag are different in each game (SDI, DI, vectoring, etc.).

Btw, smashwiki doesn’t have any discussion page?

But with the high base knockback on all attacks and very low hitstun, combos will barely be a thing if at all. At least had true combos in Brawl which made him the only good and only fun character to play competitively.

 

[Mr G W]

Smashwiki is still too outdated and wrong about SSB4 information

 

[yume_nikki]

But with the high base knockback on all attacks and very low hitstun, combos will barely be a thing if at all. At least had true combos in Brawl which made him the only good and only fun character to play competitively.

Of course, combo potential is much lower in Smash 4 than Melee/64 (still, most characters I’ve played with have some 2-4 hit legit combos at low %, which is more than most Brawl characters).

But the system is still more similar to Melee/64 than Brawl: variable, non-cancellable hitstun vs fixed hitstun if cancelled. That’s the point. The basic, inner mechanics of combos are similar (if we ignore SDI, DI, vectoring), despite combo potential being clearly different. You can keep on saying that Smash 4 has less combos, and pretty much everybody will agree on this, but I don’t see this discussion going anywhere. The article is bound to be changed several times as Smash 4 meta develops.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Melee really didn't go past 2-3 hits without other character interaction making anything after that a read.

This thread seems to tetter on a "vs" but it has some merit in discussion about where they would quanity Smash 4's stuff so tread lightly.

 

[Quillion]

Melee really didn't go past 2-3 hits without other character interaction making anything after that a read.

This thread seems to tetter on a "vs" but it has some merit in discussion about where they would quanity Smash 4's stuff so tread lightly.

2-3 hits? Then what are all these combos that can be kept going for a few seconds that I see in videos everywhere?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

2-3 hits? Then what are all these combos that can be kept going for a few seconds that I see in videos everywhere?

If they are, its a read somewhere in that combo or it's Fox vs Marth on FD where it leads to death if done right.

Melee really doesn't go past that often and if it does or doesn't is based on reads of DI, platforms, techs etc.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Considering that this is the "Wiki" that still won't let randoms edit the disgustingly out-of-date character pages information, I wouldn't take what they say about Smash 4 100% seriously.

Still my testing would show that, although definitely more limited than Melee and 64, this game does have some good stuff. You just have to know what you're doing. I feel that this game's combos will be very memorisation-based and anyone interested in improving their combo game should take themselves to Training mode immediately with a pen and some paper.

 

[Pokedex649]

I've had no problems with combos.

 

[Shaya]

I don't care about smashwiki's little gems, you're looking to insight a conversation that insinuates the earlier game's combo systems are worth having a philosophical argument over this game's combo system with, you kinda even answer your own questions and should know a free-to-edit wiki can be inaccurate.

This section is about moving forward, not staying caught in the "past".