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Is Sakurai trying to raise the level of lower level players?

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
The Melee "How To Play" video only briefly discusses grabbing, and if I recall correctly, does not mention anything about shield grabbing.
lol, serious gamers dont read how to play guides that come from the game maker, its just common sense that the games creator doesnt know how to win at the game like an experienced player.

I never watched the how to play in n64 smash when I was a kid but I still figured out stuff like shorthopping and shieldgrabbing.

Protip: Complete newbies or casuals don't check Smashbros.com updates every single day.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Hey, stop that. Using truth is an advanced forum tactic and constitutes cheating.
No forum tactic johns
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
Hey, lay off. I am a forum scrub.
Scrub, eh? Then GTFO off my internets. :p

Even if an effort was made to balance the characters, it would be near impossible to completely balance a game of Smash Bros' complexity to the point where EVERY characters has an equal chance against every other character. Ergo, tier lists are a flaw of humans.
True, but you can still come pretty close. Most of the Guilty Gear games are an example of this.
 

PukeTShirt

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
279
Location
Strongsville, OH
1) The point is to have fun, I know. I do have fun, but I would have more fun if I actually stood a chance with these characters. It is very discouraging to be playing for hours trying to beat the game and almost being there, just to get defeated
I know what you mean, as I have been there myself, but the thing is, even with enough practice, no one isn't playable. I play with my roommates all the time and can will with mewtwo and bowser fairly consistently. Me and my roommates are all at about the same skill level and i can win a couple matches with bowser against even Fox. Just learn the character you like to play as and learn their match ups and you can win. Playing low tier and bottom tier characters can be very very frustrating I know, but winning with them over higher tiered characters is well worth learning the advanced details. :)
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
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Jul 21, 2005
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I know what you mean, as I have been there myself, but the thing is, even with enough practice, no one isn't playable. I play with my roommates all the time and can will with mewtwo and bowser fairly consistently. Me and my roommates are all at about the same skill level and i can win a couple matches with bowser against even Fox. Just learn the character you like to play as and learn their match ups and you can win. Playing low tier and bottom tier characters can be very very frustrating I know, but winning with them over higher tiered characters is well worth learning the advanced details. :)
At lower levels of play, tiers don't really apply. I destroy my friends with random characters all the time. :)
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
I know what you mean, as I have been there myself, but the thing is, even with enough practice, no one isn't playable. I play with my roommates all the time and can will with mewtwo and bowser fairly consistently. Me and my roommates are all at about the same skill level and i can win a couple matches with bowser against even Fox. Just learn the character you like to play as and learn their match ups and you can win. Playing low tier and bottom tier characters can be very very frustrating I know, but winning with them over higher tiered characters is well worth learning the advanced details.
That's all fine and dandy, but the cold fact of the matter is that tires really do exits. There comes a point where what character you play as DOES matter. That's the whole nature of tiers. At the most advanced level of play for both characters in a match, the higher tiered character will always win, if utilized correctly.
 

Retroking2000

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
London , Silver Street
Regardless of what you may think the updates say, it definitely does not say anything about how he feels about advanced techniques. And of course sakurai tries his best when he makes games, but these very exploits were in melee. He tried his best and they were still there, and more then likely it will happen with brawl. If the game isn't balanced then it is up to us, the competitive smashers to do our best to balance it out. Just like we did with melee. The melee scene evolved from casual smashers such as your self. We are the same as you, just with tourney experience.
could not agree more
 

volbound1700

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
4,446
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SE USA
Serious about how "experienced players" are often only using glitches and overpowered characters and that Sakurai wants to prevent that? Yes. To be good at anything you only need practice and experience, and that's going to be in every single game no matter what Sakurai adds or subtracts, so if you are trully a good player you don't have anything to worry about. Only cheaters who depend on certain things to win will be complaining this time around.
Agree, I am debating the tournament rules about banned tournaments. I brought up how we play random stage random character and they all whined saying that would be unfair matchups having Fox v. Bowser, etc. I said if you really want to be good you should be well-rounded and be able to play with all characters and be some-what competitive.

Some of the noobs can beat the pros if you get them in different game plays (say stock with items). Who is to define no items, final destination, and timed as the real gameplay of the game?
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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Some of the noobs can beat the pros if you get them in different game plays (say stock with items). Who is to define no items, final destination, and timed as the real gameplay of the game?
Despite what many may believe, competitive play did not start with one guy sitting down and outright banning items on day 1 because "he hated them". Items used to be present in tournaments. However, unfair explosions started skewing tournament results, so they were banned. Certain levels heavily favored certain characters to where there was no hope for opponents, so some of those were banned, too. It is all about making the game more fair and more viable for big tournaments where money is on the line.

So, we are not some fanatic group who just hates items and only likes FD (we actually play on MANY stages). It is based off EXPERIENCE.
 

volbound1700

Smash Master
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Aug 26, 2007
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4,446
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SE USA
Hey the guy across the table could have a royal flush and I have a pair. That wasn't by my choice, maybe poker should be banned under that logic!

That is why you play 5 stock games, if you lose one life, you still have 4 more lifes left to overcome the explosion and chances are something similar will happen to your opposition in the time it takes to finish the match.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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Hey the guy across the table could have a royal flush and I have a pair. That wasn't by my choice, maybe poker should be banned under that logic!

That is why you play 5 stock games, if you lose one life, you still have 4 more lifes left to overcome the explosion and chances are something similar will happen to your opposition in the time it takes to finish the match.
First off, this isn't poker, so stop comparing the two. I love smash, but I absolutely hate those card games. Gambling is stupid.

The 5-stock logic doesn't help either. Like I said, I played a guy that was clearly inferior to me in skill, but I died twice to explosives that appeared after I started my down-air. That means I had absolutely no control over my loss. The game handed the victory over to the other guy. I don't like playing games based off "odds of it happening to my opponent too". In that particular set, my opponent never once had an explosion ruin his day. I had several.
 

Takeshi245

Smash Champion
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Jul 13, 2007
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Ansonia, CT
So by announcing things we already know like shielg-grabbing, some noobs think they can beat professionals? The Brawl boards can get really ridiculous at times.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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What's ironic is that I have never withheld advanced techniques from a casual smasher. If they ask me to teach them a tactic, I teach them. These things are not some big secret. However, now Sakurai is mentioning these things in the DOJO, and the casuals feel like they have the power to exact revenge upon us. :chuckle:
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
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Montreal Canada
Way to make me feel appreciated.
No john johns.

Yeah pros will still be the best at brawl since they play smart and think about their game more and put effort into it. Scrubs will always have something in their way, refusing to admit that they are indeed worse than the other player, and will find something that garunteed isnt wavedashing ;) now to complain about.

Lol brawl is gonna probably have some sick ****. Cant wait to play it my friend pre ordered it now.

However, now Sakurai is mentioning these things in the DOJO, and the casuals feel like they have the power to exact revenge upon us.
Thats ******** though. Shield grabbing was something I did in n64 smash before I even had people other to play than comps and I was like 13 years old.

this is all information that any good smasher has known for at least 6-7 years by now, depending on when you got into the game, but he's stating the obvious, how will that give anyone an edge.

OH NOW WE KNOW HOW TO SHIELDGRAB! yeah, but your spacing sucks. I wont LET you shieldgrab me, dig?
 

Junpappy

Smash Lord
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Sep 18, 2006
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aZ
Some of the noobs can beat the pros if you get them in different game plays (say stock with items). Who is to define no items, final destination, and timed as the real gameplay of the game?
:laugh::laugh:

Noobs CAN'T beat pros as long as the rules that are changed are in-game rules. Period.
 

Ritalin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
16
No john johns.

Yeah pros will still be the best at brawl since they play smart and think about their game more and put effort into it. Scrubs will always have something in their way, refusing to admit that they are indeed worse than the other player, and will find something that garunteed isnt wavedashing ;) now to complain about.

Lol brawl is gonna probably have some sick ****. Cant wait to play it my friend pre ordered it now.



Thats ******** though. Shield grabbing was something I did in n64 smash before I even had people other to play than comps and I was like 13 years old.

this is all information that any good smasher has known for at least 6-7 years by now, depending on when you got into the game, but he's stating the obvious, how will that give anyone an edge.

OH NOW WE KNOW HOW TO SHIELDGRAB! yeah, but your spacing sucks. I wont LET you shieldgrab me, dig?

You're a hard core player, yet you won't buy your own copy? pathetic.
 

lavamage

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Wisconsin...yay that place no one has ever heard o
I can't believe how dumb this thread is.


If pro smashers were not so all and mighty, then maybe they would have bothered to read the instruction manual in which it clearly says "well sheilding, press a to use a grab".

This is just a game mechanic that has proffesinal use as well.
 

Junpappy

Smash Lord
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aZ
I can't believe how dumb this thread is.


If pro smashers were not so all and mighty, then maybe they would have bothered to read the instruction manual in which it clearly says "well sheilding, press a to use a grab".

This is just a game mechanic that has proffesinal use as well.
I can't believe how dumb that post is.

Knowing that you can push a to grab out of a shield doesn't equate to knowing that you can grab opponents out of attacks if you shielded the attack. Advanced tactics don't consist entirely of possible maneuvers and abilities that are unintended; an advanced mindset is also an aspect of higher level play.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,445
Location
Central New York
Shield grab?

SHIELD GRAB?!

SHIELD FLIPP'N GRAB?!?!?!

Pfft, that's nothing. I do that all the freaking time. If that's an advanced tech, that's...sad. If not, that makes sense. It's waaay to easy to do. Even I can freaking do it...LOL
 

The Hypnotist

Smash Lord
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May 23, 2007
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Pinole, California (The Bay Area)
Some of the noobs can beat the pros if you get them in different game plays (say stock with items). Who is to define no items, final destination, and timed as the real gameplay of the game?
The Smash Senate! But seriously, we play stages other than FD. And we play time, you don't know what the helll your talking about. Items bring luck to the game, and that's something impossible to deny and if you don't understand that then ask me to go into more detail.

And no... you couldn't beat M2K with items on at Termina Bay.
 

aMtt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
102
Location
IU Bloomington
Serious about how "experienced players" are often only using glitches and overpowered characters and that Sakurai wants to prevent that? Yes. To be good at anything you only need practice and experience, and that's going to be in every single game no matter what Sakurai adds or subtracts, so if you are trully a good player you don't have anything to worry about. Only cheaters who depend on certain things to win will be complaining this time around.
What exactly do good tournament players use that you consider cheating? And why can't you do exactly the same thing? Do you feel more "honorable"? Or are you lazy?
 

aMtt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
102
Location
IU Bloomington
Some of the noobs can beat the pros if you get them in different game plays (say stock with items). Who is to define no items, final destination, and timed as the real gameplay of the game?
Do you really think that you could beat the professionalswith items? Come on now...

You obviously don't know what you're talking about, because pros don't play time matches, they play stock.
 

baheffron

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
102
Location
Charleston, SC
I don't understand why some casuals on this board think that pros cannot properly use items. They are pros for a reason! Just because they compete in tourneys without items doesn't mean they will get beaten by a noob with items in use... In fact, they would probably be able to exploit it even more to their advantage because of their thorough grasp of the game.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
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Mar 5, 2006
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San Diego, CA
Even if an effort was made to balance the characters, it would be near impossible to completely balance a game of Smash Bros' complexity to the point where EVERY characters has an equal chance against every other character. Ergo, tier lists are a flaw of humans.
Tiers are a problem of the developers. Yes it is pretty much impossible to make everything completely balanced but it wouldn't be incredibly hard to make a Smash Bros game that would allow the majority of the characters to be playable in tournaments and still keep their uniqueness (at least they could do much better than melee and 64). The problem has been that Sakurai doesn't seem to have any concept of balance and the last 2 smash bros games show this pretty well. Hopefully they have gotten better for this installment. Games can be made decently balanced.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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To address the question presented in the topic title, yes, Sakurai is trying to raise the level of lower level players. No, it will not work.
 

BigRick

Smash Master
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Apr 9, 2006
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Montreal, Canada AKA Real City brrrrrrrrapp!
To address the question presented in the topic title, yes, Sakurai is trying to raise the level of lower level players. No, it will not work.
What I don't like is that some of these ''newbie friendly'' features reduces the overall effectiveness of them.

Take tether recovery for example... in Melee you weren't always aiming for the ledge!
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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What I don't like is that some of these ''newbie friendly'' features reduces the overall effectiveness of them.

Take tether recovery for example... in Melee you weren't always aiming for the ledge!
It's true, but as an advanced player, I don't see that as ruining it or simplifying it. I see it as automating it so that I can focus on new/different tactics.
 
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