Is Sakurai trying to raise the level of lower level players?

[maxieman]

If you get on every day to check Smashbros.com and come to Smashboards.com to discuss it afterward...

YOU ARE NOT CASUAL. Saying you're casual is just an excuse for when you suck.

sweet I'm not a casual

time to learn me some wavedashing

 

[jdub03]

Its impossible to make a perfectly balanced fighter. Thats why same as in melee brawl will have top tier characters that will be used more the the lower tiers. I cant (and im pretty sure you cant) name one fighting game where every character was used equally. People who think pros are only good because of so called exploits will be surprised come february.

 

[Classic-Black]

Awareness maybe, actual level, no. Smash has always been a pick up and play game, so unless everyone going to the site is taking notes, they'll forget most of the information when they start playing anyways. you'll have some that end up trying to get better, and you'll have those that just pick up and play the game, kinda like it is now

and as a side note, anyone that says the advanced techniques are cheats either sucks at the game, or just ignorant. and since i'll get heat for that comment, no I don't play in tournaments

 

[Florida]

I thought it was interesting that Sakurai explained shield grabbing as well.

However, even though it wasn't as detailed as the DOJO!!, the Melee How to Play video suggests you grab with "R + A", with a tiny sub-note that "Z" works as well.

He won't be showing us wavedashing anytime soon =P

 

[Max780]

I agree I think he's really trying to help how well non pros play.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Serious about how "experienced players" are often only using glitches and overpowered characters and that Sakurai wants to prevent that? Yes. To be good at anything you only need practice and experience, and that's going to be in every single game no matter what Sakurai adds or subtracts, so if you are trully a good player you don't have anything to worry about. Only cheaters who depend on certain things to win will be complaining this time around.

I swear to god, you idiots annoy me to no end with your bull**** and complaining.

Technical play is smash may be an important aspect to gameplay, but there is more to it than a couple of techniques that are used in play that you can name off the bat (WaveDash and l-cancel). Just to lt you know, these "glitches" are in no way broken, nor are they glitches in general. The abuse of the games physics engine in this game (And in fighting games in general) is nothing but common place that don't have any negative effect on the opponent. All technical abuses encompass the person using them and don't have a distinct disadvantage to the opponent.

The noob mind set can be concluded like this: "Tourneyasses often use glitches, so they win automatically. I hate them". Believe it or not, the abuse of a technique does not cause your opponent to be victorious by default. Using techniques such as Wavedash are generally used fpr spacing and movement. L-cancel is used to decrease landing lag (And yes, it still exist in brawl as an intentional exploit), these are the only exploits in the game that can be slightly abused. But abusing a technique without proper guidence is only leading towards a hastey loss.

Tournament level smash revolves around aspects:

-DI (Directional influence)
-Mindgames/Intelligent Play
-Priority
-Technical skill
-Character Knowledge
-Stage knowledge
-Character Playing style

These are the most important contributions towards the tournament sceen. Now, as for character selection, you are free to pick whoever you want and a majority of people pick a variety of the top 5-7 characters to win tournaments. What people don't know is that people play in tournaments for two reasons: To win, or to have fun. A majority of those people accomplish both by being good sportsman and enjoy a skillful bout against one another.

It's true that it takes experiance to be good, but playing on the touranemnt level requiers more than the use of a basic technique and using it constantly. People who are at the top have worked hard constantly tp develop their playing styles and put effort into their gameplay. Professionals aren't where they are because of an abuse, but through a revolution in their playing. Like all competative fighting games, Smash is tactical. Any enchancements to the games engine are only for the increased effect of tactics implemented in the meta-game.

Have you ever been to a tournament? Do you know the basic rules for tournament play? Have you even attempted to look beyond your perspective into another insted of being irrational? If you did, you wouldn't be so stuck up about the subject. Once you enter the competative sceen, there is no doubt that everyone knows said technique, which means technical skill doesn't simply determin the victor. The ability to out think the opponent, general intelligence, and knowing priority are the stepping stones that seperate the casual from the elite, and it will remain that way techniques or not.

Get your **** facts strait.

 

[GreenKirby]

]

 

[streetsk8er158]

ya know its 9 times out of 10 I see a casual player attack pros and advanced techs, it makes me sad to call myself a casual player

 

[Mambo]

Sheild grabing was fundimental and I did it very early on. Infact, I never used Z to grab.

 

[coolfufuman]

Im a complete newbie
and i check the update every day

 

[Zjiin]

lol @ Reyairia.

"OMG these techniques are effective against people who don't use them! What a glitch! You're obviously cheating! These characters can't be beat!!!"

bwahahahaha. This is just too good, don't be a sore loser.

 

[The Hypnotist]

This is what I think Nintendo should be doing, teaching advanced techniques, reather then removing and simplyfying them.

 

[Snafu]

If you get on every day to check Smashbros.com and come to Smashboards.com to discuss it afterward...

YOU ARE NOT CASUAL. Saying you're casual is just an excuse for when you suck.

Or saying I'm casual could be an indicator of how I play the game: socially instead of competitively. Not everyone plays tourneys.

Honestly? I reckon Sakurai is trying to draw attention to the fairly basic techniques (shield-grabbing isn't all that advanced) that were generally ignored/unknown to the less-experienced players. It's less that he's trying to improve their game (although that's a likely side-effect) and more a sort of "Hey, look what I put in that you aren't using! Use it more!"

 

[The Hypnotist]

Serious about how "experienced players" are often only using glitches and overpowered characters and that Sakurai wants to prevent that? Yes. To be good at anything you only need practice and experience, and that's going to be in every single game no matter what Sakurai adds or subtracts, so if you are trully a good player you don't have anything to worry about. Only cheaters who depend on certain things to win will be complaining this time around.

Yeah because the best players in the world play with pokeballs on very high on game and watch's stage...

And yeah... Sakurai doesn't want us to play as Fox... ok. I bet you sthink SHFFling is cheating, and I bet you suck at smash too...

 

[GOTM]

i doubt he is trying to "raise the level" of some players. i think either he needed something to go with gray fox, or he just wants to show that a lot of things are capable with this fighting game compared to others, as people might not have known in the past.

 

[Shadowclaw]

If there's already a well-written response to something you disagree with, there is no need to write another one unless you have something important to add. Else you're only provoking a flame war. Saying someone sucks at something does not provide any relevant information nor does it help prove a point either. Why can't we be more civilized?

And by the way, please don't generalize casuals either. There are casuals that complain and attack competitive's just like there are competitive's that pick on casuals calling them noobs. Besides, there is no set definition for a "casual" player. Some take it as people who don't go to tournaments (aka: play competitively), while others consider it as not playing often. Either way, you have no right to call them noobs. Let's not keep making long, pointless flame wars; you cannot fight violence with more violence.

 

[2.72]

This is what I think Nintendo should be doing, teaching advanced techniques, reather then removing and simplyfying them.

Agreed, although I think that advanced techs that are in should be in due to design, not accident.

I don't think that it's wholly necessary. As a casual, I already edgehogged, shield grabbed, and used Marth's fsmash (sometimes), neutral B (occasionally), crouching A, and off-edge bair to edgeguard before I even heard of smashboards. Oh, and I occasionally countered Fox and Falco's recovery.

With a bit of experience, you don't need to be a pro to have an elementary knowledge of strategy. I never, for an example, wavedashed or shffled, although I did use short hops with aerial attacks for mobility. As a Marth and Falco main, you can bet that I spiked.

I would have appreciated some hints about these strategies in the manual. Sometimes I think that there's some fundamental rule about game manuals: they never actually give good advice, except on a superficial level. Sakurai should feel free to break that.

You don't have to be a pro to use some decent strategy. I don't have the time, reflexes or even desire to play competitively. In particular, technical practice is boring (to me). Button mashing is also boring.

Don't generalize casual players too much. By all means, Sakurai should give a few hints to people who enjoy playing, and enjoy playing well, but don't frequent smashboards and don't go to tournaments.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Wow, CREA, you created another one of these threads? Not that you created all the other ones, but how many discussions about this are we going to have? Yes, Sakurai is adding more tools to the new player's bucket. No, new players will not magically catch up to advanced ones because advanced players have an entirely different mindset. Brawl will be different, but only players unwilling to adapt will fall by the wayside. The rest of us will just learn a new game. The playing field will be even... for about a week after release... then all the cheap players will emerge.

 

[Tony_]

Its impossible to make a perfectly balanced fighter. Thats why same as in melee brawl will have top tier characters that will be used more the the lower tiers. I cant (and im pretty sure you cant) name one fighting game where every character was used equally. People who think pros are only good because of so called exploits will be surprised come february.

Soul Calibur 2 would like a word with you.

 

[Reyairia]

If anyone hasn't figured out Revaira yet, look at her sig.

Well, finally someone figured it out. I am purposefully spewing bull**** out to see people's arguements. What? Am I that good?
I only have two real opinions when it comes to Brawl;
1. I'm fiercely anti-tier list because I hate to see so many characters go unused and I'd like to be able to play my favorite character and not worry about being at a disadvantage. (My favorite Nintendo character is Bowser, go figure)
2. I want Ridley in.

I don't really care for whatever else because I'm not into serious tourney gaming.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Soul Calibur 2 would like a word with you.

Even that wasn't "perfectly" balanced. Hence Xianghua being overused (CH AAB, invisible low and 3B launching at max range ? Come on now). There were clearly characters that were better than others, just not to the extent that some of them would be useless. You would rarely a great Yunsung though (besides Hayate/EIN's).

Theoretically, the only way to achieve "perfect" balance is to have a single playable character... not exactly interesting for a fighting game.

 

[Veysey]

Judging by all his previous updates and the content he is adding to the game, it's easy to assume that he is simply trying to make the funnest possible experience for experienced players and newcomers alike.

If I'm not mistaken, the updates are linked straight from Nintendos main page making it more than likely that complete newcomers ARE, in fact, checking these updates. I wouldn't consider it impossible that some of them even daily.

If I were to take a guess at what Sakurai is trying to do and why it would be this:

He is trying to better inform less experienced players and complete newcomers of the basics on how to fight. Giving subtle hints as to how to play at an advanced level. Hoping that some of the readers walk away thinking "Wow, I never even thought of such tactics" etc etc.

Why is he trying to ready them? Online play will have the experienced players mingling with the complete newcomers. The better informed the newcomers/less experienced players are - the more likely they are to pick up on the advanced techniques that are used against them. Since there isn't a way to communicate during a match, it will be up to the player to walk away with his/her own lessons. With Sakurai explaining things like this in the updates, it will always remain in the back of their minds and eventually when they get schooled by someone who uses these techniques well, they'll be able to draw out on that previously acquired knowledge.

It's obvious he is trying to maintain a balance and in such a pursuit, he knows he needs to address the situation that newcomers and less experienced players will inevitably get their rears handed to them while online. He's just doing all he can to better prepare them without cutting the faithful and more experienced players short.

Hope that all makes sense =/

 

[_Phloat_]

Well, finally someone figured it out. I am purposefully spewing bull**** out to see people's arguements. What? Am I that good?
I only have two real opinions when it comes to Brawl;
1. I'm fiercely anti-tier list because I hate to see so many characters go unused and I'd like to be able to play my favorite character and not worry about being at a disadvantage. (My favorite Nintendo character is Bowser, go figure)
2. I want Ridley in.

I don't really care for whatever else because I'm not into serious tourney gaming.

Actually, unless bowser is exactly the same as whoever you are referring too, you will be at a disadvantage

The tier list is just a way of letting you know that; the game determines the list, the list does not determine the game.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Low tier characters being avoided is indeed a byproduct of the tier list, but the tier list does many players a great service. While they may not be very vocal here in the forums, many people are not interested in playing around. They would rather jump straight to being the best. The tier list simply lets them know who has been winning as of late. Sheik used to be #1, but times changed. Now Fox is clearly the best alongside Falco. That does not mean other characters cannot win. It just illustrates current trends.

*gets idea for next blog post*

 

[Reyairia]

Actually, unless bowser is exactly the same as whoever you are referring too, you will be at a disadvantage

The tier list is just a way of letting you know that; the game determines the list, the list does not determine the game.

I don't understand what you mean.
My sister mains Marth, and my favorite characters (as in, personality and games and such) are Mewtwo and Bowser. I found myself losing constantly despite how I played the game more often than my sister. Is it too much to ask to be able to use my favorite characters freely without having to worry about losing because of them? My point is I don't want to be at a significant disadvantage, but I wouldn't want to main Fox or Marth because I have no personal feelings about them as I've never played their game (and unlike my sister, a character being pretty isn't enough reason for me).

Sure the game determines the tier list, doesn't mean that the tier list isn't a flaw.

@Buzz: when some characters are clearly overpowered and while others are clearly underpowered sure it doesn't mean that you can't win, but it does mean that you are at a significant disadvantage.

 

[Junpappy]

Tier lists are a flaw of humans, not of fighting games.

And Buzz, even though I should have foreseen this degrading into a play for fun vs play with skill thread, I still felt like making the thread to try and see what would happen.

 

[Icelement]

I don't understand what you mean.
My sister mains Marth, and my favorite characters (as in, personality and games and such) are Mewtwo and Bowser. I found myself losing constantly despite how I played the game more often than my sister. Is it too much to ask to be able to use my favorite characters freely without having to worry about losing because of them? My point is I don't want to be at a significant disadvantage, but I wouldn't want to main Fox or Marth because I have no personal feelings about them as I've never played their game (and unlike my sister, a character being pretty isn't enough reason for me).

Sure the game determines the tier list, doesn't mean that the tier list isn't a flaw.

@Buzz: when some characters are clearly overpowered and while others are clearly underpowered sure it doesn't mean that you can't win, but it does mean that you are at a significant disadvantage.

So you pick your favorite characters, Mewtwo and Bowser, and lose to your sister most of the time. There are a few options: (one of which CREA just mentioned)

1) If you like to play for FUN, and you want to pick your favorite characters to play for FUN, then play FOR FUN. If you lose, ask your self: "Did I have fun playing those characters, despite losing?" It is just a game after all, and if you're playing for fun then you have to accept losing, since it was all for fun.

2) Try other characters. I understand you feel strongly for a select few characters. I did too, until the relentless complaining of friends drove me to try new characters, one of whom (Link) I enjoy playing more than I did previously when playing Marth.

3) Just plain try harder if you REALLY do insist on winning. Without the right attitude, a fight is lost before it starts. If you start a VS match with expectations of you losing, you most likely will. Think positively.

I know it has all been said a thousand times over, but sometimes it is necessary to repeat things like this, you know? Obviously I'm not a pro, but the right attitude is a big help when playing games, be it in a competitive environment or a casual one.

-Icelement

Edit: Typos. It's 3:00am.

 

[Reyairia]

Tier lists are a flaw of humans, not of fighting games.

I doubt that. Some characters are obviously broken, and some are obviously underpowered. That needs to be fixed, and I think sakurai is fully aware of the problem.
(In fact, I think it was mentioned in an interview, but I'm not sure)

 

[Mama]

Low tier characters being avoided is indeed a byproduct of the tier list, but the tier list does many players a great service. While they may not be very vocal here in the forums, many people are not interested in playing around. They would rather jump straight to being the best. The tier list simply lets them know who has been winning as of late. Sheik used to be #1, but times changed. Now Fox is clearly the best alongside Falco. That does not mean other characters cannot win. It just illustrates current trends.

*gets idea for next blog post*

True. Although I didn't base my character off the tier list. I chose Peach because she was un used by any of my friends and later found out how good she was. Otherwise I would have looked at the tier list and picked a character in high or top as a main then another as an alt. I don't care what character is top tier because I'd prefer playing a character I think is cool (like Ganondorf rawr) but if I happen to be playing as a top tier character then its because I like the character. Although there are characters I like (Link is one of my favorite videogame characters) that I wouldn't use because of being inadequate.

Balance is another thing I look forward to in Brawl. It doesn't have to be perfect but I'd like to see maybe 2/3 characters being high to top tier quality.

 

[Reyairia]

So you pick your favorite characters, Mewtwo and Bowser, and lose to your sister most of the time. There are a few options: (one of which CREA just mentioned)

1) If you like to play for FUN, and you want to pick your favorite characters to play for FUN, then play FOR FUN. If you lose, ask your self: "Did I have fun playing those characters, despite losing?" It is just a game after all.

2) Try other characters. I understand you feel strongly for a select few characters. I did too, until the relentless complaining of friends drove me to try new characters, one of whom (Link) I enjoy more than I did previously when playing Marth.

3) Just plain try harder if you REALLY do insist on winning. Without the right attitude, a fight is lost before it starts. If you start a VS match with expectations of you losing, you most likely are. Think positively.

I know it has all been said a thousand times over, but sometimes it is necessary to repeat things like this, you know? Obviously I'm not a pro, but the right attitude is a big help when playing games, be it in a competitive environment or a casual one.

-Icelement

1) The point is to have fun, I know. I do have fun, but I would have more fun if I actually stood a chance with these characters. It is very discouraging to be playing for hours trying to beat the game and almost being there, just to get defeated by my sister who has only played for an hour because she chose Marth and I chose, say, Kirby. It wouldn't be so bad if my sister didn't mistake it for lack of skill on my part and made fun of me.

2) I don't feel strongly about a select few characters, in fact, I've tried playing them all. Even if I saw I did win more with sheik, I still wanted to use those two more just because they're my favorites from their games. Is it such a problem that I love a character for who they are in their respective game rather than how many fights I win with them? Especially when that is a flaw on the game's part and can be fixed as much as possible?

3) I do try harder, and if I were to use Marth I'd beat my sister because I have as soon as I switch to Marth or sheik. But the point is, I want to use ALL the characters and be able to defeat her Marth instead of having to use just a select few.

Melee has 25 characters, I shouldn't have to only use 5 if I want to stand a chance of winning. I don't understand why you mistake my "attitude." I don't take things seriously as a casual player, but having the game imbalanced to the point Melee was doesn't only affect the serious tourney goers, but us casuals as well.

 

[Icelement]

1) The point is to have fun, I know. I do have fun, but I would have more fun if I actually stood a chance with these characters. It is very discouraging to be playing for hours trying to beat the game and almost being there,just to get defeated by my sister who has only played for an hour because she chose Marth and I chose, say, Kirby. It wouldn't be so bad if my sister didn't mistake it for lack of skill on my part and made fun of me.

Don't take this as starting an argument, as I'm sure those are very unwelcome here on smashboards, but I've got to reply with a few things.

As I underlined above, you're stating that your sister had beaten you with only one hour of practice. Unless I'm misinterpreting you, I'd have to say you have no right to complain about overpowered characters, based on the skill level you seem to be at. I'm by no means pro at this game, and I'm not implying that I'm better than you in any way, but losing to someone that is so new at the game makes you seem rather hypocritical.

I won't continue to check the thread, cause my instinct will get the better of me and I'll start some kind of long argument that would close the thread.

-Icelement

 

[geemann2236]

The game seems to be a lot more nub friendly because it is slower and more floaty. I think he prolly is, and I no likey it...

 

[Classic-Black]

isn't it possible you just suck? I tend to pick Kirby more than any other character, and I don't really have a problem picking my shots and getting the win. Considering how light Kirby is, and the fact that i'm usually going against someone faster (Fox) or someone a helluva lot stronger (Marth/Roy) I don't really have a problem sticking in there and getting the win.

If you have fun with certain characters, play as them.. If you can't win, maybe change your tactics

 

[RedKnight]

The Melee "How To Play" video also had that awesome spike!

HURGHHHHHH TAKE THAT BOWSER

ever since I saw that move, and how efective it was, I began to incorporate it into my Mario strategy

 

[Team Giza]

The game seems to be a lot more nub friendly because it is slower and more floaty. I think he prolly is, and I no likey it...

Slower and floater doesn't make a game more noob friendly... look at Virtua Fighter.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Brawl will only have the illusion of being more noob-friendly. Competitive players will still dominate.

 

[_X_]

Brawl will only have the illusion of being more noob-friendly. Competitive players will still dominate.

As it has held true with almost anything that requires skill or practice.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

As it has held true with almost anything that requires skill or practice.

At first will be excited that they can do perfect tether recoveries and whatnot, but they will notice later than their win-loss ratio hasn't changed much.

 

[Junpappy]

I doubt that. Some characters are obviously broken, and some are obviously underpowered. That needs to be fixed, and I think sakurai is fully aware of the problem.
(In fact, I think it was mentioned in an interview, but I'm not sure)

Even if an effort was made to balance the characters, it would be near impossible to completely balance a game of Smash Bros' complexity to the point where EVERY characters has an equal chance against every other character. Ergo, tier lists are a flaw of humans.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Even if an effort was made to balance the characters, it would be near impossible to completely balance a game of Smash Bros' complexity to the point where EVERY characters has an equal chance against every other character. Ergo, tier lists are a flaw of humans.

Hey, stop that. Using truth is an advanced forum tactic and constitutes cheating.