Is lucina viable competitivly?

[PsychoSy]

Title says it all.
I Just want to know if she's actually fit for tournaments because i keep hearing people on twitch that she's not(even though twitch is sometimes filled with trolls).

 

[Moydow]

She may be marginally less viable than Marth because of the lack of tipper, but not by too much.
Marth has been nerfed, but he's still viable - maybe not top tier any more, but he should still be up there. Lucina plays essentially identically, so she won't be too far behind.

 

[PsychoSy]

She may be marginally less viable than Marth because of the lack of tipper, but not by too much.
Marth has been nerfed, but he's still viable - maybe not top tier any more, but he should still be up there. Lucina plays essentially identically, so she won't be too far behind.

Ahh ok well that is a bit of relief i guess since it kinda makes me angry hearing people say that she's not competitively viable yet the meta hasn't even developed yet. but other than that, Thank you ^^!

 

[Trickerhere]

i believe she will be in the B range as in either low high tier or high mid tier. Regardless, I will still use Lucina along with Sheik.

 

[Master Raven]

I feel like she's viable but 3DS controls hinder the living **** out of her since she's a character who requires tight control, something that the 3DS makes extremely difficult. You could say that for all characters in this game, but characters like her get hit by it the hardest. Plus the game's only roughly a month old and she is not a popular character atm so no one is really good with her yet.

Whether she's high or mid tier doesn't really mean anything until we understand the disparity between tiers in this game and how her matchup spread looks as her meta matures.

 

[xExcel]

She matches up well with basically every character so I'd say so.

 

[The TaBuu]

She may be marginally less viable than Marth because of the lack of tipper, but not by too much.
Marth has been nerfed, but he's still viable - maybe not top tier any more, but he should still be up there. Lucina plays essentially identically, so she won't be too far behind.

<--- Lucina with a haircut :3
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I'm going to have to disagree here. In terms of competitive viability, Lucina is capable of doing well in a given Smash metagame as she has distinguishing features from Marth.

Many people see her lack of tipper as a character flaw / detriment to her viability and this is a flawed idea. In certain situations, having a tipper sword may grant certain advantages such as a higher KO potential and larger damage output. This is an undeniable fact. However, Lucina can play effectively and, quite honestly, differently from Marth.
Her equal damage output from all parts of the sword allow Lucina to grab KOs much more consistently than Marth who relies on tipper KOs. Lucina is shorter than Marth and consequently uses a shorter ranged sword ; however, as odd as this may sound, a smaller character frame provides Lucina with a smaller hurtbox something Marth doesn't have and actually suffers from being an awkwardly tall, lightweight character.

Marth is heavily rewarded for consistent spacing and therefore accels in the neutral state because of his ability to keep opponents out. Lucina, on the other hand, while capable of spacing like Marth and also possessing an advantage in the neutral state, is rewarded for a more aggressive 'push'. Her lack of a sourspot provides consistent damage and knockback and thus she rewards more from attempting a transition from neutral > advantage. Marth is also very capable of an aggressive 'push' but the risk vs reward is slightly less for Marth.

Also Marth + Lucina are more than capable of being in the top 10 spot for Smash 4 as their innate character build provides them with a solid gameplay.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I can't see how Lucina would be treated differently than Roy in melee (similarly Marth's style minus tipper if I'm not mistaken...I know speed and power wise Lucina and Roy are worlds apart though)

 

[The TaBuu]

If I'm not mistaken, Roy had a sweetspot near the hilt of his sword as opposed to Marth's tip sweetspot. Lucina has consistent damage and knockback along the entire sword meaning she lacks a sourspot and has no sweetspot on most of her moves.
Roy's sourspot was ridiculous as it possess little to no KO potential while Marth had some KO potential in some of his sourspot moves. This leads to a difficulty in KOing, something Lucina doesn't have to worry about against the vast majority of the cast.
Roy's character build also prevents him from comboing and recovering well while Lucina's build makes her the opposite.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

If I'm not mistaken, Roy had a sweetspot near the hilt of his sword as opposed to Marth's tip sweetspot. Lucina has consistent damage and knockback along the entire sword meaning she lacks a sourspot and has no sweetspot on most of her moves.
Roy's sourspot was ridiculous as it possess little to no KO potential while Marth had some KO potential in some of his sourspot moves. This leads to a difficulty in KOing, something Lucina doesn't have to worry about against the vast majority of the cast.
Roy's character build also prevents him from comboing and recovering well while Lucina's build makes her the opposite.

I thought I remembered Roy's sweet spot in the middle of the blade right...it seems to work in Lucina's favor not to have it at all because spacing isn't as much of an issue then - perhaps we're underestimating her

 

[Conda]

I've read a lot on the two, but I'm wondering if there's a clear resource for where I can learn about the actual benefits Lucina has compared to Marth. I know that their speed, frame data, and such are the same across the board. I'm interested in if their attacks have slightly different properties (ie knockback trajectory/strength/etc) and if their specials are different in any way (I've read that Lucina's SB takes longer to charge but is more powerful as a killer, but again I don't have a resource to find out for sure and clear any misunderstanding on my part).

Thanks!

 

[MaximalGFX]

Well I am pretty sure her B is more powerful. I break shields without even charging it Lucina and with Marth I need to charge it for at least a second to break someone shield. Also, because she doesn't have the tipper mechanic Up smash is a very good killing move from the ground.

 

[Tacticulbacon]

Well I am pretty sure her B is more powerful. I break shields without even charging it Lucina and with Marth I need to charge it for at least a second to break someone shield. Also, because she doesn't have the tipper mechanic Up smash is a very good killing move from the ground.

This, and her side b is easier to pull off than marth's.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly...there are no "strengths" that matter if your spacing is half way decent with Marth. Her shieldbreaker is better if you don't tip with Marth otherwise Marth's is slightly better. Dancing Blade is the same but tipper hits have more hitlag so it can mess with your timing. Thats just a matter of practice. Both their U-smashes suck you in towards their sword but Marth's rarely sucks you into the tipper from the ground so Lucina's is better as a tech chase or in trap situations but thats pretty much it.

 

[EternalFlame]

We also can't forget that due to the fact she has no tippers means her knockback on attacks will remain consistent with the other two variables of damage % and move used. Because of this, it becomes much easier to think of setups, combos, etc when spacing doesn't become too much of an issue. Not that myself or anyone else has come up with a combo that starts from a tipper, but at the very least Lucina will always do max damage no matter where she uses her moves.

Another point is the problem of Marth wiffing sometimes when the opponent is too close. Now the problem may be present with Lucina as well, but I imagine it shouldn't effect her as much or not at all due to her height difference from Marth (thus not swinging as far, but her hitbox should be closer to her). Though it would be nice to have someone confirm it for me, but that's just my two cents xD

 

[EternalFlame]

Seeing as the question was addressed on this end, I'll just add my two cents into the mix here.

Lucina's lack of tippers also means that her knockback is more consistent than Marth's (on the off chance of accidentally tipping your target). This means that her setups, combos, etc will also work easier due to one less variable in the mix. It allows for that sorta ken combo that's mentioned on this side of the character boards, so props to Lucina's lack of tips.

 

[Funkermonster]

 

[Shaya]

I feel bad for this. But it keeps happening and people aren't bothering to research/search for five and a half frikken seconds to get the answer said to them plain as day. I think I need to end up making a "The Unfortunate Truth of Lucina: Please Stop Asking" thread, but it would ultimately be very patronising to her players.

Marth is almost universally a better character in every scenario. I would not feel confident in saying he is superior in 100% of cases, I already know this is not true, but 90%+? Very likely. Is there reason to use Lucina in tournament over Marth? The answer is unfortunately no. Is she viable though? Of course she is, she has a winning character design and while her deficiencies separate them, their differences don't change how match ups are played at all and anything Marth can win, Lucina can in practise do so too.

The most crippling and objective difference is how their swords work, but it's a lot more drastic than just "oh tippers do more damage and kill earlier".
This is not necessarily obvious to people, but there's a property in this game called Hit Lag, that applies whenever an attack hits somebody or something, the length of hit lag is based on the % Damage of the attack and a scaling modifier. Marth's tipper attacks produce extra hit lag, just like Captain Falcon's knee, to exemplify hitting with their sweetspots, their modifier is above 1 (or above 100%). On the contrary, Marth's untippered attacks produce less hit lag, their modifier is below 1. In Brawl this was 130% on Tippers and 70% on non-tippers IIRC.
Now onto how hitting shields work. When an attack hits a shield, the hit lag the person in shield experiences does not consider the modifier, whilst the initiator still does. This means that Marth's untippered hits on shield are safer than they normally would be by several frames, whilst his tipper hits are less safe.
Lucina does not have this effect anywhere on her sword (I've tested tilts/jabs conclusively, I'd assume it's standard); her attacks have no hit lag modifiers whatsoever.
This means that Marth spacing poorly is safer on shield than Lucina spacing well on every single attack. The frame disadvantage received by tippers by Marth through hitlag are compensated by the still higher damage scaling with shield stun and shield knockback and ultimately still end up giving Marth higher frame advantages on shield with tippers than Lucina does as well.
So what does Lucina get for poorly spacing that Marth doesn't? 1% extra damage on average per hit and killing 10% or so earlier on Smash attacks. A rough estimate would be that Lucina's sword is 12.5% more potent on damage and knockback, while Marth's tippers are up to 25% more damage and knockback or BETTER, the kill differences between them when it comes to tipper forward smash is pretty disgusting.

While I cannot be [near] objective on the next point, I say it with confidence.
Combo ability difference is a load of crap. I've been playing Marth for close to a decade, I don't think about combos, I think about hit confirms into more hit confirms and acting as fast as possible out of my actions. Marth and Lucina are not combo heavy characters in this game, and this will not change. I hit people with forward air and through the hitconfirm know exactly where they're going to travel towards. When I hit people with tippers on Marth in combo strings it gives me even more breathing space/time to be in a position to reduce enemy options/guarantee successive hits, while weaker attacks can be punished on hit; this applies to Lucina as well. I really cannot begin to even understand any Smasher having a mindset on Marth or Lucina that involves knowing what percent things combo into each other perfectly, because that's just not how Smash Bros works at all, there are so many variables that exist already (enemy percent, move staling, rage, DI/Vectoring, Smash DI/Shuffling; good players have to react to these things) that something as minor as 10% more or less knockback requires no adjustments. If you think it does, you're not comfortable with Marth or Lucina in the first place at the skill required to succeed at high level.

So,
Is there any scenario Lucina is safer on shield than Marth? Literally never. I'm not sure about what people mean by being able to play more aggressively on Lucina, but I posit you this every time you hit a shield as Lucina and get punished, the same may not have happened on Marth.
Is there any scenario Lucina is safer on hit than Marth? Yes; but the window this matters is very small (mostly eradicated by the time any enemy is above 30%). Some moves very poorly spaced on hit may also be punishable for Marth in scenarios it wouldn't be for Lucina. Marth's jab is a low knockback move unless tippered, and for a wide array of percent isn't safe on hit (it eventually becomes something you can combo out of and is likely to trip), this is not as pronounced on Lucina, who can use her jab more liberally.
Is comboing with Lucina easier/more consistent? I would say no. Another technical point is that hitstun scales with knockback, and hence Marth's tippered attacks are producing more hit stun and hence more comboability than Lucina would, but as I mentioned in that big paragraph, it really doesn't and shouldn't matter.

 

[The TaBuu]

The question was regarding whether or Lucina is a competitively viable character. The major consensus is yes and that was honestly a silly question to begin with. The better question is Does lucina have the traits to effectively distinguish herself from marth?

And something else I'd like to bring into this conversation. Wouldn't Marth struggle in certain match-ups more than a Lucina would, because of his tipper mechanic? Considering the number of mobile characters in this game (Pikachu, Little Mac, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Fox, Falco, etc), Marth's ability to effectively KO certain characters becomes painfully obvious. Yes I know, edge-guarding exists but Lucina shares this same exact ability to do so and therefore this will not be considered when talking about KOing.
Marth relies on the tipper for a KO and if he's unable to, he must rack up a lot of damage on the opposition before being able to KO comfortably with a sourspot or sweetspotted hit.
For example take Up-Smash OoS. Lucina's Up-Smash OoS is better than anything Marth could wish for. Her entire body pretty much becomes a deadly KO hitbox while Marth has to hit the tip for an effective KO. How about Dsmash? You read the roll and Dsmash with Marth. Unless the situation is perfect, the KO probably won't occur as quickly as Lucina taking the very same option.
In tournament level, fast and mobile characters have always been a dominant force and this won't be different for Smash 4. Therefore, won't Marth players struggle to effectively land tipper KOs everytime? This leads into the question of KO consistency. And this matters for certain tournament match-ups. Little Mac becomes more dangerous the longer he stays alive while Lucario does too. In fact, heavy characters in general are much more dangerous this time around because of Rage Mechanic and Marth's inconsistent ability to KO them will act as a detriment for him.

TBH I'm no expert on smash and this is a pathetic post compared to the one Shaya posted (lol), but I feel like Lucina's traits do allow her to distinguish herself from Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The fact that marth is almost ALWAYS safer is a BIG DEAL. There is NO reason to pick her in this case imo. Why would i want to commit MORE in a game where committing gets you mauled.

 

[Shaya]

The question was regarding whether or Lucina is a competitively viable character. The major consensus is yes and that was honestly a silly question to begin with. The better question is Does lucina have the traits to effectively distinguish herself from marth?

A lot of threads keep cropping up for this, as well as the question keeps coming up. There was another thread with a similar premise but was more direct. The answer to the simple question is Lucina viable has been answered around here multiple times as well.

And something else I'd like to bring into this conversation. Wouldn't Marth struggle in certain match-ups more than a Lucina would, because of his tipper mechanic? Considering the number of mobile characters in this game (Pikachu, Little Mac, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Fox, Falco, etc), Marth's ability to effectively KO certain characters becomes painfully obvious. Yes I know, edge-guarding exists but Lucina shares this same exact ability to do so and therefore this will not be considered when talking about KOing.

Are you trying to suggest to me a character that has slower frame data than the aforementioned characters can somehow compete better at close range when her stuff is LESS safe?

Marth relies on the tipper for a KO and if he's unable to, he must rack up a lot of damage on the opposition before being able to KO comfortably with a sourspot or sweetspotted hit.
For example take Up-Smash OoS. Lucina's Up-Smash OoS is better than anything Marth could wish for. Her entire body pretty much becomes a deadly KO hitbox while Marth has to hit the tip for an effective KO. How about Dsmash? You read the roll and Dsmash with Marth. Unless the situation is perfect, the KO probably won't occur as quickly as Lucina taking the very same option.

The difference between Lucina's Up Smash and Marth's Up Smash untippered on Megaman is 8% (115% to 123% pre-hit) without DI on the BF platform (I did this to avoid feet hitbox and it hits them centre blade hitbox/about the height the feet hitbox can lead into).
7% if you consider the fact Lucina's up smash does 1% more damage. I guess it's better than anything I could ever hope for. Want to know what percent tipper up smash kills at? 86%.

Down Smash isn't a kill move in this game on either character really. It's the only move I think Lucina has other than Down air that has a tipper hitbox (that is it's only chance of it ever killing). Marth's kills at about 120% to Lucina's 140% (on the tippers). Marth has a feet hitbox that sends horizontally while Lucina's is vertically.

Lucina isn't killing with forward tilt, up tilt or dash attack, ever. Those have nuances of varying degrees, but the fact that I can get kills with forward tilt with current game mechanics is a pretty large difference on that regard. The Smash power difference really is minor. None of Lucina's aerials kill other than back air off stage, while Marth's up air and back air do kill, pretty well, if tippered.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously a tipper ftilt from marth is a safer fsmash from lucina

 

[The TaBuu]

welp there goes my faith in Lucina :/
I wanted to try a new character in Smash 4 but it seems like Lucina is nothing more than an inferior clone at this point

 

[Emblem Lord]

"New character"

Dawg....WHAT?!

LOOK AT THEM!!

 

[The TaBuu]

They're still different haha. Similar but different. And she hasn't appeared in previous Smash iterations so ... that validates her for a new character. Unless your definition of new character is something else

 

[Folt]

What about the (not exactly) Ken Combo that Lucina has?

 

[Shaya]

welp there goes my faith in Lucina :/
I wanted to try a new character in Smash 4 but it seems like Lucina is nothing more than an inferior clone at this point

I'm still using her a lot. But I really think it's important people aren't fooling themselves. This really sucks though, because I'm damned if I do and damned if I do not. If people enjoy Lucina than they can enjoy her and still do well in tournament, but there is no question to be asked about which one is better or if there is going to be a gap in the tier list between the two.

What about the (not exactly) Ken Combo that Lucina has?

Think for a moment. How is it that any thing from Lucina combo-wise is not also possible with Marth when their frame data is exactly the same?

Ken Combo fascination is common with new players. I've seen a combo or two in my time. I'm still doing them on Marth.

 

[Folt]

Think for a moment. How is it that any thing from Lucina combo-wise is not also possible with Marth when their frame data is exactly the same?

I think I get what you're trying to say, though I guess that means Marth would do it at different percents then (unless I'm totally off-base with my assumptions).

 

[The TaBuu]

Well Marth is 'better' but regarding a gap in tier list between the two, I don't think there will be a significant gap considering how similar they are. And let's be honest, while Marth may be the stronger option of the two, any MU that Lucina will struggle in, Marth will probably as well. He doesn't possess any significant tools that would help him in the MU, imo

 

[Darklink401]

It'd also be better with Marth, I presume, since his tipper smash is devastating.

However, Lucina is quite awesome in her own right, and I feel the same technique that works for Marth works for her, just sliightly less so.

 

[Shaya]

Well Marth is 'better' but regarding a gap in tier list between the two, I don't think there will be a significant gap considering how similar they are. And let's be honest, while Marth may be the stronger option of the two, any MU that Lucina will struggle in, Marth will probably as well. He doesn't possess any significant tools that would help him in the MU, imo

I'm telling you right now, from experience. Forward air is safe on shield for Marth while Lucina's is not.
That's a huge thing. Marth's dtilt on shield is a better trap. That's a huge thing.

That changes match ups drastically.

Priority of attacks is based on % damage (whether it loses, clanks).
Super armor seems to be broken by % damage too. How do you like that Little Mac match up?

 

[Folt]

Well, being generally less safe on shield does sound like a hit for Lucina, and if I remember correctly, it was discovered that she had slightly lower vertical reach with her attacks due to her slightly shorter size (so an uair to f-smash might not work as well for her as it would do for Marth).

 

[The TaBuu]

I'm telling you right now, from experience. Forward air is safe on shield for Marth while Lucina's is not.
That's a huge thing. Marth's dtilt on shield is a better trap. That's a huge thing.

That changes match ups drastically.

Priority of attacks is based on % damage (whether it loses, clanks).
Super armor seems to be broken by % damage too. How do you like that Little Mac match up?

Fair enough. Things are only looking worse for her though haha
Is there a redeeming factor for Lucina?

 

[MLSword]

I'm telling you right now, from experience. Forward air is safe on shield for Marth while Lucina's is not.
That's a huge thing. Marth's dtilt on shield is a better trap. That's a huge thing.

That changes match ups drastically.

Priority of attacks is based on % damage (whether it loses, clanks).
Super armor seems to be broken by % damage too. How do you like that Little Mac match up?

Hmm.... I don't know if I 100% agree with you on Marth almost always being safer on shield, as I have broken MANY shields with neutral b from Lucina, if you can predict their shield (or just punish them FOR shielding) As for aerials and dtilt and such, I DO agree with you, however, I think that the neutral b difference IS significant a good bit. I think that they are around even, with Marth probably being a tiny bit better (Like 45:55)

 

[Darklink401]

I guess the redeeming factor is that she's generally easier to use because you don't have to have a spacing game, so she can more more up-in-your-face.

She's definitely easier to use for beginners and casuals though, I'd say.

 

[Robertman2]

Honestly, I think Lucina and Marth are like Fox and Falco in Melee.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm.... I don't know if I 100% agree with you on Marth almost always being safer on shield

Then you would be completely and utterly wrong.
How do you think I need to word things so the message gets across?

Because I didn't say almost always being safer on shield, I said literally always safer on shield.

 

[Darklink401]

Except not as good, but I like the comparison.

 

[MLSword]

Then you would be completely and utterly wrong.

As I said above, Lucina's neutral b uncharged nearly breaks their shield, so if they shield another attack from her = Broken Shield = Charged neutral b. As I ALSO said above, Marth is safer with basically everything else BUT the neutral b is very much heavily significant. I don't mean disrespect of any kind or anything.

 

[Darklink401]

I don't think Shaya meant the charged-B, but moreso the forward-air.