I'll admit that I'm no pro at P:M, but I do go to bimonthly tournaments in my area and place relatively high (2-4 out of 20) with Link every time. On top of that, since I've started going, the first place winner is ALWAYS a Link player. He just outplays me and all of the other people that go, including high-pressure characters like Fox, Falco, and Shiek. I've given up on Link, not because he's become awful, but because all of my friends complain that he's OP as *** after I wipe the floor with them. Their main issues with Link are projectile abuse and spin attack. Are my friends just awful with their characters? Because everyone on this character discussion page is sure making it sound that way.
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Is Link Really Considered Mid-Tier?
- Thread starter Girth94
- Start date
Fortress
Smash Master
Yes.
Link's recovery techniques off-stage, while allowing him to come back from far away, can be predictable, and lengthy. If you're not tether-cancelling, then it's a miracle that nobody has spiked you off of the ledge while trying to clawshot back onto it.
With the spin attack, it's an extremely punishable move if shielded, and avoidable at the ledge (sort of) by tapping L or R to roll back onto the stage. You can still get hit, but you at least get sent towards the middle of the stage.
As for projectiles, not sure why spacies are having trouble with that. I mean, reflectors and all.
Link's comfy in the mid-tier. He's a solid character with a variety of options and some power behind his swings, but he struggles dealing with being pressured.
Being mid tier in PM isn't the same as being mid in melee or brawl. You can dominate people with nearly any character in the game, so there will be people who feel like this with pretty much any character simply because their friend is severely outplaying them.
I don't why people have problems with Link's projectiles. Bomb and boomerang are really slow to pull out and arrow requires charging. Maybe it's because all the character's I get beat by with Link are the rushdown characters like Captain Falcon.
Tlock
Smash Apprentice
Link is mid tier. He is a solid character with lots of good attributes but doesn't have any stupid/jank moves. One of the better designed buffed characters in the game. If anything he needs a buff, and I think a faster run speed would be a good option to consider.
As Jolteon said, even tho Link is generally considered mid tier in P:M he is still a good character, as all PM characters are. If referencing the 2010 melee tier list I would put Link somewhere around Captain Falcon and Ice Climbers.
As Jolteon said, even tho Link is generally considered mid tier in P:M he is still a good character, as all PM characters are. If referencing the 2010 melee tier list I would put Link somewhere around Captain Falcon and Ice Climbers.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
ya links op
Sarix
Smash Ace
Yeah being mid tier in PM is similar to mid tier in other fighting games where the character is plenty viable but doesn't have anything inherently overpowering.
Currently Link is at a design point where tweaks or little buffs would only be considered. I personally think if they decide to keep his mobility the same that they should slightly speed up his ground normals like Jab1, Ftilt, and Dtilt by no more than 2-3 frames to circumvent his mobility problems.
Currently Link is at a design point where tweaks or little buffs would only be considered. I personally think if they decide to keep his mobility the same that they should slightly speed up his ground normals like Jab1, Ftilt, and Dtilt by no more than 2-3 frames to circumvent his mobility problems.
NaijaboyIrin
Smash Apprentice
@OP: Your friends should try to get better. You shouldn't have to drop your main in friendly matches because your friends can't find a way to beat you.
This happens all the time when I play my brother. He maintains that Link is OP, but doesn't make an attempt to change his playstyle.
Btw, I think Link is comfortably mid-tier. He is good but not polarizing or oppressive. No massive overhauls necessary for this character.
This happens all the time when I play my brother. He maintains that Link is OP, but doesn't make an attempt to change his playstyle.
Btw, I think Link is comfortably mid-tier. He is good but not polarizing or oppressive. No massive overhauls necessary for this character.
I've been told (and can see) that Link's sweet-spotted aerial Up-B is difficult to punish from above. And, when I don't tether-cancel, my friends either d-air or b-air me. I usually survive by meteor-cancelling or stage/ledge-teching.
The spin attack comes out fast, hits hard and then semi-spikes, and lasts a substantial amount of time. Whenever I get a legitimate kill or gimp with it, they complain that all I had to was stand near the edge and spin. I've heard "Spin to Win" a thousand times.
Well, not every character in the cast has a reflector. Spacies only make up 3 characters in the entire PM cast. Their biggest issue is the boomerang. It has earned the friendly nickname "Combo Police" because it always shuts down combos when it returns to Link.
I still feel like his Z-air in 2.6b is... odd. I'd love some more fine-tuned hit-boxes so I could poke-away or pull-in with it. It's like a poor-rang when Rang is already out, and otherwise the niche I found for it/it seemed to have in 2.5 is no longer filled as profoundly (hard distance-poke), and it doesn't really fill a niche (AKA somewhat purposeless) in 2.6. The same bomb-tricks and landing with ranged attack is there, but... the poke... that actually did stuff sometimes.
Otherwise, animation tweaks on Rang would be nice. I don't use it as much as I know I could benefit from, and I think it's just unappealing so I really don't want to. haha
In other news, he's solid when he gets a hit, and gets solidly troubled when he gets hit, but there's enough dynamics in both to make him function really well in the niche-character style he does.
Sweet character, amazingly well done.
<3 Dash Attack/U-Tilt/D-Smash/U-Air/Grab combos too much to care about how good he is anyway.
Otherwise, animation tweaks on Rang would be nice. I don't use it as much as I know I could benefit from, and I think it's just unappealing so I really don't want to. haha
In other news, he's solid when he gets a hit, and gets solidly troubled when he gets hit, but there's enough dynamics in both to make him function really well in the niche-character style he does.
Sweet character, amazingly well done.
<3 Dash Attack/U-Tilt/D-Smash/U-Air/Grab combos too much to care about how good he is anyway.
Nemiak temp
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 178
Z-Air is Link's best move hands down in certain matchups. Afraid of Mario's priority and stupid grab combos? Sit back and Z-air his ass. Pops up for free up airs and fairs and it's safe. His z-air is the only thing that gives him a chance against Marth. His zair fills more than a niche, I don't see your issue with it.I still feel like his Z-air in 2.6b is... odd. I'd love some more fine-tuned hit-boxes so I could poke-away or pull-in with it. It's like a poor-rang when Rang is already out, and otherwise the niche I found for it/it seemed to have in 2.5 is no longer filled as profoundly (hard distance-poke), and it doesn't really fill a niche (AKA somewhat purposeless) in 2.6. The same bomb-tricks and landing with ranged attack is there, but... the poke... that actually did stuff sometimes.
Otherwise, animation tweaks on Rang would be nice. I don't use it as much as I know I could benefit from, and I think it's just unappealing so I really don't want to. haha
In other news, he's solid when he gets a hit, and gets solidly troubled when he gets hit, but there's enough dynamics in both to make him function really well in the niche-character style he does.
Sweet character, amazingly well done.
<3 Dash Attack/U-Tilt/D-Smash/U-Air/Grab combos too much to care about how good he is anyway.
Sarix
Smash Ace
It's definitely Link's most reliable air-to-air poke and is a fantastic spacing tool. I find it works wonders for making difficult to punish shield pressure when properly spaced with its autocancel, an arrow or two, and Link's range added in. The only weakness of Zair is if the opponent can run under it or close the distance before it comes out (which is frame 10 still I believe). Regardless, it's a high utility normal that aids spacing, zoning, recovery, and pressure.
Player -0
Smash Hero
If they're getting hit by spin attack when you just spin attack on the ledge then they're getting hit by the semispike then they should just wait on the ledge until Link is done spinning and punish, there's a decent endlag for spinattack, easily enough time for an U-air onto the stage.
For Link's aerial Up-B they can SDI out of the final hit and just punish.... You shouldn't even use Aerial Spin Attack as an attack although if you're recovering you can use the reverse hitbox for the final hit to knock your opponent off stage, it's pretty cool.
If your opponents play rushdown characters then they should just keep an eye out for the boomerang, memorize its trajectory and hop over it or something....
Either way your friends sound like massive scrubs
I'm not a fan of the popping-up as much as the poking. That's what the post was about.
+ I'm not sure it's his only chance against Marth. That match-up was nearly feasible in Melee (to some extent) and there's no reason is a struggle in PM, even without Z-air it's functional.
My favorite thing with the 2.5 Z-air was silly edge-guards with it. Anyone attempting to grab the ledge (either when recovering from high/going towards it to be safe/SH Aerials straight from the ledge/etc) could be easily Z-air-poked away from it, leaving them falling in a dangerous spot with a DJ and close to the edge. Perfect to get panic-reactions, which are always fun to crush.
Now, the Z-air pops them up, and saves lives where I could have had free early% gimps. :/
GeZ
Smash Lord
I've had the same problem, but I've figured out why my friends, and probably yours too, think the character you're playing is OP. Different players have different habits and more or less familiar ground. Your friends take issue with Link because they are very unused to characters controlling space and options with projectiles.
So from here on you can do one of two things, the first being you explain Link's forte and weakness' and show them how to deal with and work through your spacing control so that they can get a better grasp not only of your and their character, but all characters that would space similarly, or, and this is what I did, switch to another character who you feel comfortable with and stomp them. Repeatedly. Do that until they realize that the matchups are losing because of skill disparity rather than the character ability disparity.
Once you've established that all characters have simple strengths and weaknesses, you can begin tutoring your friends to understand these weaknesses on a character to character basis, ushering them to understanding and reacting to matchups. Matchup knowledge is a really common hurdle in fighting games and getting your friends over it will help them better themselves as players.
Or if they insist on being salty, and refuse to be taught, resign yourself to smearing them whenever you play. I have a few friends who like the game but won't but the time in and complain about my characters and ability instead, and I just wreck them. Doing anything else is holding your development as a player back for the sake of others who would shy away from taking the game seriously. You don't have to lose friends over it, just don't lose forward momentum in your training.
So from here on you can do one of two things, the first being you explain Link's forte and weakness' and show them how to deal with and work through your spacing control so that they can get a better grasp not only of your and their character, but all characters that would space similarly, or, and this is what I did, switch to another character who you feel comfortable with and stomp them. Repeatedly. Do that until they realize that the matchups are losing because of skill disparity rather than the character ability disparity.
Once you've established that all characters have simple strengths and weaknesses, you can begin tutoring your friends to understand these weaknesses on a character to character basis, ushering them to understanding and reacting to matchups. Matchup knowledge is a really common hurdle in fighting games and getting your friends over it will help them better themselves as players.
Or if they insist on being salty, and refuse to be taught, resign yourself to smearing them whenever you play. I have a few friends who like the game but won't but the time in and complain about my characters and ability instead, and I just wreck them. Doing anything else is holding your development as a player back for the sake of others who would shy away from taking the game seriously. You don't have to lose friends over it, just don't lose forward momentum in your training.
Fortress
Smash Master
Z-air into a D-tilt meteor, brah. All day every day.
Fortress
Smash Master
Basically this. Link's got plenty of weaknesses; slow on the ground, a lengthy and technical recovery (though, the payoff is wonderful), trouble dealing with pressure, high ending lag on plenty of his attacks, a slow grab if whiffed, and (in my opinion and experience at least) a rough off-stage offensive game.
Show your friends a game in which you play with absolutely zero AT. No wavelanding, no teching, no L-Cancelling, no AGT, no bomb recovery; no nothing. Let them have a go with you like that for a bit, and then show them what actually knowing the tricks of the trade can do for a player. Honestly, I get my friends to sit down in a circle and watch videos all of the time when a tech comes up that they should learn. We've watched that thirty-minute video a few times now.
Anyway, I harbor the same complaints against Wolf as your friends do with Link; I'm inexperienced in the matchup, and I often find myself saying things like "Wolf is ****ing ******** and way OP."
GeZ
Smash Lord
And I Marth, though I think that one is a mixture of salt vision and Marth actually being stupid. His arms are secretly claw shots for how far they reach.
Fortress
Smash Master
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Pffft mid tier? No way guys, link has hitboxes, clearly top tier potential.
GeZ
Smash Lord
You have no concept. Universes flare out in brilliant rays of sunlight as astonished denizens of this planet, and many other marbles in this infinite expanse we've dubbed "space", stare in awe and horror at the raw energy suddenly pouring into all of time from one insignificant battery. One tiny candle burning brighter and hotter than whole arrangements of helios, burning more powerfully than infinity could possibly contain, or even conceive.
This was how ready I was for Olimar before he was in a Smash Bros game.
Though if his current iterations grab stays the same, it'll be a much slower and more situational tool than it was in brawl. Still excited.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Personally I think Olimar is OP and ******** in Brawl, because he is
. No honestly, I main Pika, Oli's Pikmin eat any projectile, he camps/spaces really well, gimping doesn't really matter because in Melee Fox and Falco could get gimped really easily and they were still the best. Also that grab is ******** ._.;Trying to learn sucky matchups ftw.
I think they should change Oli so he only starts out with the 3 pikmin he pulls in the beginning and have them be like, Red, Purple and Blue. Then they change it so those 3 can never die and super follow him. After that they change his Bair to something, change Up-B/Side-B on the ground to a insta pluck + Pikmin rocket-esque attack. You could angle the pikmin like Yoshi's eggs. Change his B into something.... Down-B could lose the pikmin follow thing but increase super armor time, lower spammability so it's kind of like a Brawl Airdodge but you take damage. Up-B in air could change to something like Snake's Up-B. They could change Oli's Nair to something like Mario's Dair so he could do an attack out of it, although that might be OP: Oli Nair to Dair spike (SDI maybe).
Wall of Text
Although they could always change Oli only slightly and keep his playstyle more technical and aware. I just don't like the idea of Oli being able to spam pikmin toss with SH's XD.
GeZ
Smash Lord
You're guesstimating is right in some area's and totally off in others. Right now he starts with 3 randomly chosen Pikmin and can have a maximum of 4 out, instead of 6 like in brawl. They are much more durable and hit a lot harder while also noticeably powering up from leaf to flower. Pikmin pull (neutral B) happens slower but can be used in the air to give him a little lift and movement with a similar recovery use as Mario's cape, though, like Mario's cape, it suffers diminishing returns. As far as I can tell, his side B is the same, which is fine because the Pikmin already flew at different trajectories depending on their type. Down B is the same but i think it doesn't have the armor. Haven't tested that but it doesn't look like it. You can use it faster to reorder your Pikmin quickly though. His Nair is literally exactly how you described it, which is awesome. Dair is more powerful but happens more slowly. White Pikmin now put a flower like Ivysaur's bulb moves so hitting with it isn't useless. His spacing is inherently tougher because his smashes all come out a bit slower, but have a lot more recovery time. As I see him now, he's shaping up to be a hard hitting harassment character with good pressure.
NaijaboyIrin
Smash Apprentice
This thread isn't about Olimar.
Take it to Character Idea submission or something.
Take it to Character Idea submission or something.
GeZ
Smash Lord
Actually I was talking about the current build of Olimar rather than pitching in ideas. And a four post diversion from the main topic isn't too terrible as long as it hasn't disrupted any of the current discussion of the character, which, since this thread has been a bit inactive, it hasn't. Still fair so Olimar discussion will cease and desist, ya party pooper :T
Fortress
Smash Master
THANK YOU, OLIMAR POLICE.
I meant using Up-B to sweetspot the ledge. I never use it as an attack. I'd much rather use bombs.
I've already started trying out the "stomp them" approach. For whatever reason, my friends prefer being up/down throw -> knee'd with CFal or up throw -> up-air'd or shinespiked with Fox than getting hit with a spin attack for not being able to recover properly. They harbor no complaints about these two characters. But, pull out the Link, and the world goes to ***.
I'll try to teach them, but they refuse to even read this thread. The response so far has been, "Just reading the first paragraph alone was enough for me. Link is a ***** ass character. So stfufufufufufuf." Clearly, they don't even want to be taught. I think I'll just smear them and know that I'm better.
I can't say agree with this method of demonstrating the true potential of a character. What makes characters like Fox and Falco so good IS their use of their technical tools. I wouldn't accept someone telling me, "Falco is garbage. Look, if I don't jump out of shine, I have to sit there. Look, if I don't follow up a shine with a d-air, you can punish." It's not even about the skill level of the player in this case. P:M characters are designed with the highest level of competitive play in mind. Just because certain things are hard to pull off doesn't mean the character isn't ridiculously good.
Fortress
Smash Master
I think what I was trying to get across was something along the lines of showing somebody who thinks AT is useless/overrated/garbage/whatever a game in which no AT is used. And then show the differences in what can be accomplished in doing so. Show that player who thinks Falco is garbage what can be done when somebody really knows how to use him; a sort of 'show don't tell' approach.
What I'm saying, is that if somebody's really being so staunchly opposed to learning AT that they flat-out say it's useless and a waste of time, that it could be in their benefit to experience the differences in a player who uses and does not use various advanced tech. To really show off the potential of a character.
GeZ
Smash Lord
Then your friends are ******* and bad at the game. If they won't read this thread, show them this ONE post, and say that this is in response to how they're acting. They're trash. Plain and simple. They don't want to get good at this game, so they won't. The way their acting is childish, but that's fine, because they can't motivate themselves to be anything but.
And to you, play only Link against them. If they won't listen to reason, mess them up for being such *******.
Oh, no. Don't worry about that. My friends are actually pretty good in the tech skill department. They can perform the simple stuff very consistently (wavedash/land, L-cancel) and can also perform character-specific AT like Toon Link AGT, Falco pillaring, Lucas and Ness magnet cancelling, Charizard glide cancel, and all kinds of stuff. I find that they lack in movement, recovery, edge-guarding, and DI. They don't DD often and they suck at the neutral game. They give up position really easily. They're not very consistent with sweetspotting. They rarely go off-stage to finish a stock. And, a lot of times, I find that they DI the complete opposite direction they should be DI-ing in. If you DI in on Jab 1, I'm going to spin on you, and I'm not gonna be sorry about it.
Fortress
Smash Master
Technique without the knowledge to implement it properly or have the discretion to tell when it's at its most powerful is pretty useless, in my own opinion. I could know every tech under the sun, and it wouldn't mean a thing if I didn't know how to apply it.
Nemiak temp
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 178
^ This times 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
I'm one of the most technical players in my area and for the LONGEST time I didn't understand why I wasn't getting good results in tournament because I thought that the fact that my tech skill was better than my opponent meant I would win. Tech is important but learning to implement it is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THIS GAME and really any game
But that only comes with experience, right? Are there any videos or tutorials out there that teach how/when to implement AT?
If there's one for bomb punting, please send that my way. I don't know how Hylian uses it so well. I can never find the right time to use it.
If there's one for bomb punting, please send that my way. I don't know how Hylian uses it so well. I can never find the right time to use it.
Fortress
Smash Master
As far as I was aware, bomb punting is used for janky mix-ups where simple throws and AGT might be more predictable, plus it's hard styling. Most tech that you'll use is commonsense stuff; combine fast-falling and wavelanding to speed up air-to-ground transitions, wavedash to mix up approaches, retreats, and close gaps during combos, use the DACUS to exert stage control and pressure, and things like that.
Sarix
Smash Ace
Bomb punting also has use in zoning since its bounce trajectory lets it cover a lot of space especially in tandem with an arrow or the boomerang. The best time to use it is when you know you have the space to perform it without being punished.
Wavedash has too many utilities to list despite Link having the 2nd shortest one in the game. DACUS is good to mix-up your approach with and is fantastic combo filler for Link that allows him to follow up moves that he normally couldn't. AGT is an air dash and a free 3rd jump basically, so its uses should be a bit more obvious.
Wavedash has too many utilities to list despite Link having the 2nd shortest one in the game. DACUS is good to mix-up your approach with and is fantastic combo filler for Link that allows him to follow up moves that he normally couldn't. AGT is an air dash and a free 3rd jump basically, so its uses should be a bit more obvious.
Fortress
Smash Master
Tech is great.