Is it possible to beat someone who knows advanced techniques?

[mbl1714]

Is it possible to beat someone who knows advanced techniques such as wave dashing and SHFFLing? A friend is going to come over my place in the future and he says he knows most of the advanced techniques in Melee. I am just starting to learn wave dashing, L cancelling and all that stuff. Is it possible that I can beat him? Or will he basically **** me every game? I main Falco he mains Sheik. Thanks guys

 

[Bones0]

It's certainly possible you could beat him, but chances are you'll get destroyed. Don't let it get to you, just learn what you can. It's kind of funny because when most people start out, they are worried about playing people their own level, but you'll find pretty quickly at tournaments or smashfests that you'd much rather be playing people better than you.

 

[Veetaak]

It depends how consistent he is with his tech skill and also his general playstyle. Try to do some Advanced Techniques while you play against him to learn how to do it in pressure and because AT's are very important if you are maining Falco. Gl and try to learn from it rather than trying to win

 

[mbl1714]

It's certainly possible you could beat him, but chances are you'll get destroyed. Don't let it get to you, just learn what you can. It's kind of funny because when most people start out, they are worried about playing people their own level, but you'll find pretty quickly at tournaments or smashfests that you'd much rather be playing people better than you.

Oh lol destroyed haha Yea but you are right, its better to play better people because I can learn from them. Thanks

 

[MasterShake]

Winning and losing don't matter. Learning matters.

 

[mbl1714]

It depends how consistent he is with his tech skill and also his general playstyle. Try to do some Advanced Techniques while you play against him to learn how to do it in pressure and because AT's are very important if you are maining Falco. Gl and try to learn from it rather than trying to win

Right now I only know how to SH and FF and SHL. I'm learning to L cancel in Training Mode now but I don't see myself using it yet in battle. What technique do you recommended I try against him for practice as Falco?

 

[Veetaak]

Right now I only know how to SH and FF and SHL. I'm learning to L cancel in Training Mode now but I don't see myself using it yet in battle. What technique do you recommended I try against him for practice as Falco?

SH FF Lcanceled aerials a.k.a shffld aerials would be the best to practise but if you have a hard time doing all at once I would suggest SH aerials because SH is the first thing you do when you commit to an aerial approach. (Most of the times anyways)

A tip: When you do a shffled aerial, alot of times you can start the FF and Lcancel at the same time (Depending on the hight where you start your FF) . It might help you to have that in mind

 

[Twix]

You can definitely beat him, this game (arguably) is more about reading and decision making than Tech Skill. And as Master said, you should be more concerned with learning and growning as a player.

 

[mbl1714]

SH FF Lcanceled aerials a.k.a shffld aerials would be the best to practise but if you have a hard time doing all at once I would suggest SH aerials because SH is the first thing you do when you commit to an aerial approach. (Most of the times anyways)

A tip: When you do a shffled aerial, alot of times you can start the FF and Lcancel at the same time (Depending on the hight where you start your FF) . It might help you to have that in mind

Oh ok. Ill try to practice SHFFLed Nairs and maybe I can incorporate at least some in the match. Its so hard though because its totally different than facing like a Lvl 4 Cpu lol Thanks for the help though

 

[blindfreak9]

falco imo has weird timing for his wd's, so just try to wavedash and also try to learn wavelanding, since ur opponent has just started to learn these "advanced techniques", this will probably throw him off. Also, make sure u know how to shorthop with falco. Its key and very easy

 

[Varist]

However you're L-canceling right now, stop doing it and switch to Z. L-canceling with Z is the gayest **** ever if you're used to L or R, but it's much better. MUCH BETTER. Actually, objectively better.

****, it's so much better. Get into it early.

 

[Jonas]

In the competitive community that's like saying you know how to walk, heh.
It must be said though that many new/inexperienced players will often bemoan the fact that even though they use advanced techniques, they have a hard time beating their friends who don't use them. Being able to wavedash or shffl is not an autowin, and you've just learnt them it will often hold you backs because you focus more on pulling your techniques than on your opponent. If you walk very slowly or in the wrong direction, you cannot beat someone who knows how to crawl really well

That said if he's any good and completely bodies you, take it as a learning experience. The best way to get good is playing someone better than you.

Varist,
Why is Z better?

 

[mbl1714]

However you're L-canceling right now, stop doing it and switch to Z. L-canceling with Z is the gayest **** ever if you're used to L or R, but it's much better. MUCH BETTER. Actually, objectively better.

****, it's so much better. Get into it early.

Yea why is Z better? It feels weird? Don't many top players use R?

 

[Nihonjin]

Is it possible to beat someone who knows advanced techniques such as wave dashing and SHFFLing?

Sure it is.

If you play without or haven't mastered these techniques yet, your friend will probably be more agile than you are, but if you outsmart him, you can still win.

 

[Varist]

Yea why is Z better? It feels weird? Don't many top players use R?

"Many top players use L"
"Many top players use R"
"Many top players use Z"

all ridiculous statements that shouldn't matter at all.

But Z's special because it's like, ready-made. L and R are triggers, people take the springs out to powershield/wavedash/lcancel more efficiently, with Z that's already done for you.

Also, if your move has low ending lag, would you rather accidentally airdodge in place, or accidentally grab? I score surprise grabs often enough that it is very pleasing.

And lots of players have a tendency to lift their hands off of the controller slightly. Hovering your hand over Z for l-canceling and L for teching automatically trains you to destroy this habit, Z is boss.

edit: OH **** LOL, FORGOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

So much easier to spam Z for easy 100% l-cancels than it is to spam L and R. You'd need to take your trigger springs out first. and although it doesn't make any ****ing sense because people are ********, some tourneys ban internal control modification of any kind. ****'s gay. Then you're trapped, can't spam your L button anymore. Use Z.

EDIT AGAIN FF: plus if you use Z you're automatically kicking it 64 style. too legit.

 

[mbl1714]

"Many top players use L"
"Many top players use R"
"Many top players use Z"

all ridiculous statements that shouldn't matter at all.

But Z's special because it's like, ready-made. L and R are triggers, people take the springs out to powershield/wavedash/lcancel more efficiently, with Z that's already done for you.

Also, if your move has low ending lag, would you rather accidentally airdodge in place, or accidentally grab? I score surprise grabs often enough that it is very pleasing.

And lots of players have a tendency to lift their hands off of the controller slightly. Hovering your hand over Z for l-canceling and L for teching automatically trains you to destroy this habit, Z is boss.

edit: OH **** LOL, FORGOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

So much easier to spam Z for easy 100% l-cancels than it is to spam L and R. You'd need to take your trigger springs out first. and although it doesn't make any ****ing sense because people are ********, some tourneys ban internal control modification of any kind. ****'s gay. Then you're trapped, can't spam your L button anymore. Use Z.

EDIT AGAIN FF: plus if you use Z you're automatically kicking it 64 style. too legit.

How do you hold the controller though? I hold it normally meaning I DONT claw. Still possible to use Z? (Don't have controller on me right now to check haha)

 

[Bones0]

Z is objectively better? LOL can't wait to hear that explanation.

Even if I could use R or Z just as easily, I would probably stick to L because I like splitting the functions of my hand equally (left hand only has to use the control stick while the right hand presses 3 buttons and the c-stick). L/R is also easy because when I land after aerials I can just hold it down after the L-cancel in order to shield, whereas if you use Z you have to let go and shield with L/R. It's also helpful to use L because it let's me auto-tech when I get shined OoS by Foxes.

 

[mbl1714]

Z is objectively better? LOL can't wait to hear that explanation.

Even if I could use R or Z just as easily, I would probably stick to L because I like splitting the functions of my hand equally (left hand only has to use the control stick while the right hand presses 3 buttons and the c-stick). L/R is also easy because when I land after aerials I can just hold it down after the L-cancel in order to shield, whereas if you use Z you have to let go and shield with L/R. It's also helpful to use L because it let's me auto-tech when I get shined OoS by Foxes.

Good Point. Can I still use R though? because I'm already use to practicing with R.

 

[Bones0]

But Z's special because it's like, ready-made. L and R are triggers, people take the springs out to powershield/wavedash/lcancel more efficiently, with Z that's already done for you.

You don't need to press L/R in all of the way in order to L-cancel with them. Taking the springs out won't make you L-cancel any faster or slower.

Also, if your move has low ending lag, would you rather accidentally airdodge in place, or accidentally grab? I score surprise grabs often enough that it is very pleasing.

How would you airdodge if you're coming out of landing lag? You would shield, which could let you grab if you wanted to anyway.

And lots of players have a tendency to lift their hands off of the controller slightly. Hovering your hand over Z for l-canceling and L for teching automatically trains you to destroy this habit, Z is boss.

You can tech AND l-cancel with L/R; how are 2 buttons better than 1?

So much easier to spam Z for easy 100% l-cancels than it is to spam L and R. You'd need to take your trigger springs out first. and although it doesn't make any ****ing sense because people are ********, some tourneys ban internal control modification of any kind. ****'s gay. Then you're trapped, can't spam your L button anymore. Use Z.

EDIT AGAIN FF: plus if you use Z you're automatically kicking it 64 style. too legit.

Spamming L/R is just as easy as Z, probably even easier because they need less pressure than Z does.

 

[Bones0]

Good Point. Can I still use R though? because I'm already use to practicing with R.

It really doesn't matter a whole lot between L/R. My using L is just my preference. If you don't find that using R puts too much pressure on your right hand, then go for it. One thing I will make a strong recommendation for is using Y to jump. It makes A LOT of Falco/Fox techs much easier because you can go from Y to B quickly, and without hitting A by accident.

 

[mbl1714]

You don't need to press L/R in all of the way in order to L-cancel with them. Taking the springs out won't make you L-cancel any faster or slower.




How would you airdodge if you're coming out of landing lag? You would shield, which could let you grab if you wanted to anyway.



You can tech AND l-cancel with L/R; how are 2 buttons better than 1?




Spamming L/R is just as easy as Z, probably even easier because they need less pressure than Z does.

I love you XD

 

[mbl1714]

It really doesn't matter a whole lot between L/R. My using L is just my preference. If you don't find that using R puts too much pressure on your right hand, then go for it. One thing I will make a strong recommendation for is using Y to jump. It makes A LOT of Falco/Fox techs much easier because you can go from Y to B quickly, and without hitting A by accident.

Ahh damn I'm already so use to X. Is it really necessary lol?

 

[Bones0]

It's not "necessary." You can obviously do the same stuff with X as you can with Y, but I would have to say that you would get better at tech skill faster by taking the time to switch to Y now than if you wait until you're learning advanced techs later and try to do them with X. Ultimately, it's up to you. I know switching button layouts SUCKS, but since you're still pretty early in your advancement, you should either change now or never, because it's only going to get harder the more comfortable you become with X.

 

[2GoD]

Sorry to butt in to this topic, but I agree with Bones. I used to jump with X for about a good 7-8 years with my game. Only maybe about half a year ago, I started using Y to become more advanced in my tech game and whatnot. Y is definitely the way to go and it's incredibly faster than X.

 

[mbl1714]

It's not "necessary." You can obviously do the same stuff with X as you can with Y, but I would have to say that you would get better at tech skill faster by taking the time to switch to Y now than if you wait until you're learning advanced techs later and try to do them with X. Ultimately, it's up to you. I know switching button layouts SUCKS, but since you're still pretty early in your advancement, you should either change now or never, because it's only going to get harder the more comfortable you become with X.

Ok thanks for the tip guys. I'll see if I can transfer to Y. Can you give me an example of an attack or something that would be faster using Y? So would you be able to jump cancel out of shine more efficiently with Falco lets say? And should I stick to Y for everything? Even wave dashing when I learn it?

 

[Shadow Huan]

Sure it is.

If you play without or haven't mastered these techniques yet, your friend will probably be more agile than you are, but if you outsmart him, you can still win.

listen to this man lol

amsah knows what's up

 

[Bones0]

Ok thanks for the tip guys. I'll see if I can transfer to Y. Can you give me an example of an attack or something that would be faster using Y? So would you be able to jump cancel out of shine more efficiently with Falco lets say?

Yeah, virtually any situation where you shine you will want to jump, which means getting to Y faster is really important, and there are also a few techs where you need to go from Y to B quickly. I could list a hundred different scenarios, but these are the major ones:
- Lasering after jumps (short hop lasers, ledge hop double laser, short hop double laser w/ Fox, full hop/double jump lasers, and reversed lasers for all of those)
- Jumping out of shines (jump cancelling after aerial-shines, wave shines, multishines, shine grabs, short hop lasers out of shines, shine bairs/dairs)

 

[mbl1714]

Yeah, virtually any situation where you shine you will want to jump, which means getting to Y faster is really important, and there are also a few techs where you need to go from Y to B quickly. I could list a hundred different scenarios, but these are the major ones:
- Lasering after jumps (short hop lasers, ledge hop double laser, short hop double laser w/ Fox, full hop/double jump lasers, and reversed lasers for all of those)
- Jumping out of shines (jump cancelling after aerial-shines, wave shines, multishines, shine grabs, short hop lasers out of shines, shine bairs/dairs)

Omg lol Ok you've convinced me thanks Bones And who do you think is a better main Falco, Sheik or Marth (In your opinion of course not considering my preference, based on the developing and future metagame)

 

[Myztek]

It's surprisingly often that I meet or hear from people who don't know that you can L-cancel by tapping the shoulder button. Pushing it in all the way is not necessary at all, and tapping it doesn't ruin your tech timing, nor does it cause you to air-dodge, because you never clicked the shoulder.

I definitely don't think Z is superior. In fact, it requires more pressure to press Z than it does to tap a shoulder button.

Either way, do what works best for you, but definitely try them all so that you know for yourself.

EDIT:
And to answer the question of this thread: Yes, it's completely possible to beat someone with superior tech skill. What matters is how intelligently you play. Dash dancing is a good substitute for wavedashing if you're not good at it. L-cancelling should be attempted every possible opportunity. Even if you're not good at it, force yourself to try it every time. It will quickly become second nature. (The last two statements of this paragraph apply to everything, really)

I highly advise you pick a character, go to Vs. Mode against a Level 1 or Human (just standing there, so you can practice without interference) and familiarize yourself with the speed, range, duration and other properties of all the moves you have available. **In case you're not familiar, I advise Vs. Mode (Melee Mode) instead of training because training mode does not allow you to use the C-stick for aerials, Smash attacks, rolling etc.

 

[mbl1714]

It's surprisingly often that I meet or hear from people who don't know that you can L-cancel by tapping the shoulder button. Pushing it in all the way is not necessary at all, and tapping it doesn't ruin your tech timing, nor does it cause you to air-dodge, because you never clicked the shoulder.

I definitely don't think Z is superior. In fact, it requires more pressure to press Z than it does to tap a shoulder button.

Either way, do what works best for you, but definitely try them all so that you know for yourself.

EDIT:
And to answer the question of this thread: Yes, it's completely possible to beat someone with superior tech skill. What matters is how intelligently you play. Dash dancing is a good substitute for wavedashing if you're not good at it. L-cancelling should be attempted every possible opportunity. Even if you're not good at it, force yourself to try it every time. It will quickly become second nature. (The last two statements of this paragraph apply to everything, really)

I highly advise you pick a character, go to Vs. Mode against a Level 1 or Human (just standing there, so you can practice without interference) and familiarize yourself with the speed, range, duration and other properties of all the moves you have available. **In case you're not familiar, I advise Vs. Mode (Melee Mode) instead of training because training mode does not allow you to use the C-stick for aerials, Smash attacks, rolling etc.

Thanks That helped

 

[Bones0]

Omg lol Ok you've convinced me thanks Bones And who do you think is a better main Falco, Sheik or Marth (In your opinion of course not considering my preference, based on the developing and future metagame)

It's completely based on your personal style. Whichever you mesh better with and enjoy playing the most will end up being the best choice. Don't get the false impression that Melee's metagame is at a point where what character you pick actually matters beyond the top 10 or so. If you've narrowed your personal favorite characters to Falco, Sheik, and Marth, just stick with that until you're more experienced. The character you play as is almost irrelevant until you can SHFFL, wavedash, dash dance, and jump cancel consistently. I was still maining Ness by the time I became adept at the major techs, but transitioning to Falco wasn't terribly difficult because I hadn't yet established the spacing and punishment strategies that don't come until much later.

So basically, don't constantly second-guess which character you are using, but you should be open to different characters, and view matches as an opportunity to feel out each character and decide which you prefer the most. When you're doing so, try not to switch characters every other game because it will make it hard to focus on actually developing the characters. You can establish some basic rules for yourself, such as you will play at least 10 games with a character before switching.

 

[Pi]

z is 'better' because you don't use up a tech window
but the same thing can be achieved if you don't press L or R all the way in

 

[Strong Badam]

It's pretty much impossible.

 

[Varist]

You don't need to press L/R in all of the way in order to L-cancel with them. Taking the springs out won't make you L-cancel any faster or slower.

It's a lot easier to spam something definitive like a Z-button than a mooshy trigger imo.

How would you airdodge if you're coming out of landing lag? You would shield, which could let you grab if you wanted to anyway.

I think you're picturing it wrong, if a move has low end lag, and you're FFing it, it's frequent that the lag ends before you even touch the ground and you Air Dodge in place, or into the ground, resulting in special land lag. Even more often, you put up your shield and have to shield drop. If you had used z, your character would simply grab in place, without going through the shield middleman sort of thing first.

You can tech AND l-cancel with L/R; how are 2 buttons better than 1?

Why would you want to blend your l-cancels and techs into the same muscle memory? You should be spamming Z, and timing techs. But I think you should explain this more, I can't see the advantage.

Spamming L/R is just as easy as Z, probably even easier because they need less pressure than Z does.

Sort of the same thing as up above, the trigger makes L and R's threshhold sort of iffy, at least in my experience. I've been L-canceling with L to give each hand equal activity, and sometimes I miss the L-cancel because the triggers are all mushy and indecisive. I feel like when I spam Z, this never happens because it's a more definitive input (button in, button out).

 

[Jonas]

"Many top players use L"
"Many top players use R"
"Many top players use Z"

all ridiculous statements that shouldn't matter at all.

But Z's special because it's like, ready-made. L and R are triggers, people take the springs out to powershield/wavedash/lcancel more efficiently, with Z that's already done for you.

Also, if your move has low ending lag, would you rather accidentally airdodge in place, or accidentally grab? I score surprise grabs often enough that it is very pleasing.

And lots of players have a tendency to lift their hands off of the controller slightly. Hovering your hand over Z for l-canceling and L for teching automatically trains you to destroy this habit, Z is boss.

edit: OH **** LOL, FORGOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

So much easier to spam Z for easy 100% l-cancels than it is to spam L and R. You'd need to take your trigger springs out first. and although it doesn't make any ****ing sense because people are ********, some tourneys ban internal control modification of any kind. ****'s gay. Then you're trapped, can't spam your L button anymore. Use Z.

EDIT AGAIN FF: plus if you use Z you're automatically kicking it 64 style. too legit.

I feel like a lot of these problems you are addressing don't really matter if you don't click the L/R button to l-cancel. For instanse, you don't accidentally airdodge or waste your tech.

Being able to spam Z for easy l-cancels sounds nice, but it's not that hard to l-cancel to begin with, although it does have applications for moves with huge hitlag (light press L/R is also spammable though).

"Accidental" grabs are pretty cool though lol.

Good Point. Can I still use R though? because I'm already use to practicing with R.

Lol are you actually asking for permission to use R?

 

[Planet Piss]

Tech skill isn't the bottom line of Melee. It can, however, be said that the availability of technical skill can greatly widen your options if you are in a tight spot. Being able to WD and SHFFL isn't nearly as important as knowing when to use them.

I think move selection and consistency are the best things to work on when you first start playing. Also, if you immerse yourself in a crowd of people who are better than you and you never get discouraged after losing, you'll find that you'll naturally get better at recovering, spacing, and DI until you have room to improve your other areas.

 

[stelzig]

It's I think you're picturing it wrong, if a move has low end lag, and you're FFing it, it's frequent that the lag ends before you even touch the ground and you Air Dodge in place, or into the ground, resulting in special land lag. Even more often, you put up your shield and have to shield drop. If you had used z, your character would simply grab in place, without going through the shield middleman sort of thing first.

Well first of all you're probably auto-cancelling if you were to actually make that mistake and then you cannot airdodge as the animation isn't actually completely over. Secondly you still won't airdodge unless you actually press down the shoulder-button completely. And thirdly, you shouldn't be making this mistake in the first place, learning the feel for when you can autocancel your moves is pretty important/useful.

Also, i'd argue for an accidential shield being better than a grab anyway, because you can still grab out of the shield if grabbing was actually a good idea (i believe bones also said this).

If anything, what you are talking about is only more useful in short-term and definetly not in the long run. You should certainly be able know when you're supposed to l-cancel your aerials and also stop the spamming to get the timing right eventually.

 

[mbl1714]

It's completely based on your personal style. Whichever you mesh better with and enjoy playing the most will end up being the best choice. Don't get the false impression that Melee's metagame is at a point where what character you pick actually matters beyond the top 10 or so. If you've narrowed your personal favorite characters to Falco, Sheik, and Marth, just stick with that until you're more experienced. The character you play as is almost irrelevant until you can SHFFL, wavedash, dash dance, and jump cancel consistently. I was still maining Ness by the time I became adept at the major techs, but transitioning to Falco wasn't terribly difficult because I hadn't yet established the spacing and punishment strategies that don't come until much later.

So basically, don't constantly second-guess which character you are using, but you should be open to different characters, and view matches as an opportunity to feel out each character and decide which you prefer the most. When you're doing so, try not to switch characters every other game because it will make it hard to focus on actually developing the characters. You can establish some basic rules for yourself, such as you will play at least 10 games with a character before switching.

Thanks to Bones and to everyone else you guys are awesome Love these forums

 

[Acryte]

ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS CROUCH CANCEL! Probably the easiest technical thing you can utilize against him.

Make sure at low percents he has to go for grabs, you can crouch cancel most of his tilts and dash attacks and such. Then you can hit him in the face or shine or something. That might throw him off.

 

[mbl1714]

ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS CROUCH CANCEL! Probably the easiest technical thing you can utilize against him.

Make sure at low percents he has to go for grabs, you can crouch cancel most of his tilts and dash attacks and such. Then you can hit him in the face or shine or something. That might throw him off.

Cool thanks