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Is Hbox the GOAT?
- Thread starter zuloon
- Start date
Zumbach
Smash Rookie
i know for sure he is in fact the goat
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Lmfao approval is through the roof
AirFair
Marth tho
I think that he could definitely be the best, but not the GOAT.
ThunderCat
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2015
- Messages
- 64
Mang0 is the GOAT, HBox is the GIMP.
zuloon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2006
- Messages
- 418
LOL Armada is done. He was a flash in the pan. You won't see see getting 1st at a major any time soon (at least not one that Hbox is attending).
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I will say.
How many people can't stop saying fox DESTROYS puff? Even after hbox booty blasts literally every single Fox in the world.
Either admit the mu isn't bad or give hbox his due respect.
How many people can't stop saying fox DESTROYS puff? Even after hbox booty blasts literally every single Fox in the world.
Either admit the mu isn't bad or give hbox his due respect.
Speed
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2015
- Messages
- 10
Just because HBox beats Foxes, doesn't mean the matchup isn't bad for Puff. He's just a better player. It's the same as beating a Lvl. 9 Fox with Kirby. That doesn't make Kirby better, that just means you played better.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Yikes. I'm talking about the people that say fox beats puff 70/30 (this is why I didn't say fox doesn't beat puff. I said he doesn't DESTROY puff, in caps for emphasis). Seems more like a hard 60/40 to me. Do you really think hbox is significantly better than Armada and mango? Isn't he kinda showing what puff is capable of, since, he's.... the only really good one?
Quite a few people are acting like hbox is guaranteed to win every national of 2016. Better to get some popcorn and just watch and see what happens.
Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
Maybe Westballz will win if we all decide to watch with popcorn
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Frootloop tho
AugsEU
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2014
- Messages
- 66
Well if anything is for sure it's that Hbox is currently the best player in the word. I mean he said that he found the optimal jigglypuff, and in his interview he definetly sounded like he thought he had "made it". Definetly showing signs that he believes he is the top. I don't think he thought this after his win at dreamhack though. Infact I'm pretty sure he didn't expect to win that. Maybe that is why he was so emotional? Anyway after that he lost a few tournaments so everyone was like "Yeah he is not that good it was just PAL and luck, also not all the gods where there". But then he comes and wins battle of the five gods(Oh man that was so hype! Defo licked my monitor). That was definetly the turning point. But for how long? Well I mean he has only won two big tournaments, Pound and Battle of the five gods. It's hard to say he is the GOAT now, he has to win a few more to be the GOAT. Anyway this is getting kind of long so all I'll say is that I hope he wins EVO!! 
Defo support him a lot. Maybe going to get a hydrophobic monitor just in case!
Defo support him a lot. Maybe going to get a hydrophobic monitor just in case!
AugsEU
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2014
- Messages
- 66
Anyway so about that optimal Jigglypuff he said he found. Do you guys think that once someone starts to "figure it out", he might no longer be able to keep up? He is winning a lot now but is this his limit? If his Jigglypuff is really optimal, how can it improve?
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
He's still only got one recent set win over Armada.
I'm a Florida smasher, and yes, it looks like he's currently #1, but it's just hard to say. If leffen beats him at GOML (I predict hbox win but who knows), it'll blow all the bandwagoners' minds.
Optimal is a word that gets tossed around a lot. At his level he already knows how to abuse the game enough. He's playing the player more so than he is maxing out puff when he plays another top 10-15 player. That's why I think any single player's period of dominance will be part of a cycle. It's more about having someone's number. Fox still beats puff and armada, mango, and others are still relevant threats due to their adaptation skills and the fact that competition is just so much more intense now.
I'm a Florida smasher, and yes, it looks like he's currently #1, but it's just hard to say. If leffen beats him at GOML (I predict hbox win but who knows), it'll blow all the bandwagoners' minds.
Optimal is a word that gets tossed around a lot. At his level he already knows how to abuse the game enough. He's playing the player more so than he is maxing out puff when he plays another top 10-15 player. That's why I think any single player's period of dominance will be part of a cycle. It's more about having someone's number. Fox still beats puff and armada, mango, and others are still relevant threats due to their adaptation skills and the fact that competition is just so much more intense now.
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Hbox's win at Pound didn't really do much in terms of answering the question of best smasher. Neither Leffen nor Armada was there, so all hbox really did was show he still has Mango's #, and his other wins were basically expected.
And his puff is still far from perfect, I wouldn't worry about Hungrybox hitting a plateau any time soon.
And his puff is still far from perfect, I wouldn't worry about Hungrybox hitting a plateau any time soon.
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
Here's how I feel: The GOAT position as of now is between Hbox and Armada. If we look at the tournaments they both attended in 2016, Armada won one with HBox getting 3rd (Genesis 3) while Hbox won the other with Armada getting 3rd (Battle of the Five Gods). If we want to count 2015 tournaments, we can as well (I'd still consider BH5 relevant), but imo HBox needs to win Smash Summit 2 in order to be the GOAT.
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Killerbeesan
Smash Rookie
Yes! I mean if he keeps up his current stream he will be the G.O.A.T. I am biased tho. Because i am a Hbox Fan..
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
Hungrybox is the best player in NA at the minute, but still nowhere near the "GOAT" that Mango/Armada are lool
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
It's not even a contest to compare Armada's Results to Hungrybox's. Hbox has only won two tournaments with all of the gods in attendance, whereas Armada has had way more consistent placings.
Don't you know that only the 5 most recent tournaments matter?
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
This is true, but I feel like with Melee it's better to use recent tournaments only. I know in something like physical sports older players in their primes could beat the best players as of now, but since Melee's meta is stil evolving, good players now are much better than good players back then.
In my opinion, BH5 to the present is where we should measure who's the best. It's around the time where Hungrybox started to "level up" and threaten Armada's #1 spot.
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HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
The last 6 years is perfectly representative, if it weren't, Armada wouldn't be getting first 9/10 lol
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
I think that's oversimplifying things. Armada was around the same relative skill level, but HBox most certaily wasn't, and since (in my opinion at least) this is mostly a comparison between HBox and Armada, we should look only to tournaments where the two are very similar in skill as they are now.
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
Again, even in the last 12 months, Hungrybox has only won one tournament where all of the Gods were present, whereas Armada has won more.
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
Even still, I don't think all of those tournaments should be counted. Hungrybox started getting as good as he was only very recently. Even though he won vs. Mango at Evo 2015, you could see Mango was outplaying him a majority of the set, where as that isn't the case now. The furthest I'd go back, again, is BH5.
If we use BH5, Genesis 3 and Battle of the 5 Gods, then yes, Armada slightly edges out HBox with two wins and one third, to one win, one second and one third. But depending on how Smash Summit 2 goes, we very well could have a new #1.
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
Not sure if this is a reply to what I said, but if it is, then yeah I agree. That's why I only think Armada is slightly better.
Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
So I thought this thread was a joke before, but some of you seem to be either serious or misunderstanding.
There's no argument for Hbox to be the greatest smasher of all time. You compare his legacy to Mango, Armada, or even like Ken and it pales in comparison.
However, he is making a very good case for best in the world at the moment. Personally I think Armada still has it (only two tournies he hasn't won since Evo), but I'll decide after Summit.
GOAT =/= current rank #1 player
There's no argument for Hbox to be the greatest smasher of all time. You compare his legacy to Mango, Armada, or even like Ken and it pales in comparison.
However, he is making a very good case for best in the world at the moment. Personally I think Armada still has it (only two tournies he hasn't won since Evo), but I'll decide after Summit.
GOAT =/= current rank #1 player
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
To be honest, even though I don't consider the GOAT and #1 player the same, they're very similar imo. Sure Ken has a better legacy, but Ken, even in his prime, would still lose to HBox. Another example: When Mango brags about having more lifetime tournaments than Leffen, the fact that Leffen as of now would win any tournament from a few years back that Mango won sort of makes that irrelevant.
It's not completely irrelevant, a player in a slump or a player that retired recently but hasn't been out of it for too long could still be the GOAT without being the current #1 player, but the two definitely have overlap.
Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
Ken in his prime would probably lose to DizzKidBoogie but nobody is calling him the GOAT, this argument is reaching pretty far.
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
ken's in his prime now in terms of skill tho
although I completely agree with your points
chrbir5
Smash Cadet
mango will always be the goat
armada, i think, should be the boat
but hbox may see a reign of terror. A reign that each of the gods have held for a time. But Armada's reign was so beyond everyone else that it's undeniable that he's the best smash player of all time.
Hbox has finally figured out his mental game. He doesn't use gimmicky mental strats like standing, sunglasses, other external stuff.
He just sat down with captain crunch and refined his punish game (which was already god like) to armada consistency.
Like with most performance sports: it's not about raising your ceiling, it's about raising your floor.
Hbox is probably my favorite player besides armada, but he's not the goat, and he's not the boat, he's only finally seeing his hard work pay off in the form of a reign of terror.
armada just gotta hold that 30. Leffen just gotta sit back and cry.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Debatable.
EnigmaticScarecrow
Smash Cadet
I never said being better than Ken in his prime makes you the GOAT like you're implying. I said being better than Ken in his prime makes Ken not the goat. Being better than everyone else in their primes is what makes you the GOAT imo, and yes, it isn't the exact same as the best currently. But still, a lot of times, the best player currently could beat anyone else in their primes, which is what the GOAT is. Bottom line, the two terms are pretty similar, and if HBox wins Smash Summit 2 convincingly enough, he could maybe be the GOAT.
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