Is anything safe on shield?

[icraq]

Preface: so I wrote this post initially believing Ryu had no safe moves on Sheik's shield. As it turns out I was mistaken, to a degree. Ryu can special cancel his dtilts, utilts and jab1 to punish shield grab. Shoryuken is the only safe special when using utilt1. Dtilts are safe vs shield grab with Tatsu and hadouken and I'm guessing also Shoryuken. Dtilts need to be spaced though. If up close the only option is Shoryuken, you need the invincibility from it to beat the grab.
More to come.. Might do a list. Something to note is your opponent can also safely roll, spot dodge and probably jump out. Or continue holding shield. So this isn't completely safe, it just covers a good option.

Been trying to figure out Ryu's neutral and I did some testing solo last night. There's nothing Ryu can do that can't be punished by Sheik (at least) if you hit her shield. Dsmash has way more lag for Ryu even if spaced than sheiks shield drop. Fair and bair both are punishable with shield grab. Dtilt 2 is easily shield grabbed. Utilt1 can't spam fast enough to beat shield grab. Nair gets shield grabbed or whatever they wanna do.

So is there anything truly safe? Hadouken is maybe the only safe hit on shield move but it's easily power shielded.

I feel like the only safe moves Ryu has to initiate with is stuff that doesn't actually hit a shield. Like throwing out moves preemptively. Am I wrong on any of this? I'm hopeful someone has some contrary experiences with testing. My testing was limited since I was running in stop and go mode in training mode on 1/4 but everything I tested I am certain either Sheik would be able to shield grab, or in the case of shield sliding like from dsmash Sheik was able to drop shield long before Ryu could do anything.

 

[PapaJ]

Been trying to figure out Ryu's neutral and I did some testing solo last night. There's nothing Ryu can do that can't be punished by Sheik (at least) if you hit her shield. Dsmash has way more lag for Ryu even if spaced than sheiks shield drop. Fair and bair both are punishable with shield grab. Dtilt 2 is easily shield grabbed. Utilt1 can't spam fast enough to beat shield grab. Nair gets shield grabbed or whatever they wanna do.

So is there anything truly safe? Hadouken is maybe the only safe hit on shield move but it's easily power shielded.

I feel like the only safe moves Ryu has to initiate with is stuff that doesn't actually hit a shield. Like throwing out moves preemptively. Am I wrong on any of this? I'm hopeful someone has some contrary experiences with testing. My testing was limited since I was running in stop and go mode in training mode on 1/4 but everything I tested I am certain either Sheik would be able to shield grab, or in the case of shield sliding like from dsmash Sheik was able to drop shield long before Ryu could do anything.

On shiek only? Uhh Ill test then when I can. Just keep in mind since Ryu can do alot of damage and can KO early with SRK all we need is ~80 damage and a good read to end the stock so any hit, even aerials, can get us closer. Ill test all his moves and see which ones are safe or safer if the former is not an option.

 

[icraq]

It isn't super important who it's tested on, I just know Sheik has the speed and dash grab to work as a benchmark. There's also those with laggy tethers, Link or ZSS probably have some safe on shield hits with aerials though I doubt any grounded moves are safe, maybe utilt1. But I think utilt1 spam could be rolled out of.

I know this isn't super important but it's good to know what's safe in neutral. So used to Rosalina, everything she does is basically safe on shield.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

On the point of Dtilt 2, you could just cancel it into SRK if they try to shield grab.

 

[PapaJ]

It isn't super important who it's tested on, I just know Sheik has the speed and dash grab to work as a benchmark. There's also those with laggy tethers, Link or ZSS probably have some safe on shield hits with aerials though I doubt any grounded moves are safe, maybe utilt1. But I think utilt1 spam could be rolled out of.

I know this isn't super important but it's good to know what's safe in neutral. So used to Rosalina, everything she does is basically safe on shield.

No, it is we're gonna need to know what we can use to pressure shields, S.Hadoken might but it can be seen a mile away. Before testing I feel like his weak tilts give him enough time to do something, whether it be grab, attack, or run away. USmash might be safe enough. One thing I'll test to is if SRK can beat out any of shieks punishes. If they can then we'll have a high risk high reward way of stopping shiek from automatically attacking, at least the sheik player may not punish right after an attempt in fear of getting hit by a SRK. Even in that case we can't use it all the since if it's blocked then she gets a stronger punish. This is all speculation though and im simply going off frame data of SRK, mostly the Iframes, 2-9.

On the point of Dtilt 2, you could just cancel it into SRK if they try to shield grab.

Yeah, same thing I was getting at. We'll just have to use it as smart as possible to force the shiek player to respect our attacks on shield.

 

[icraq]

On the point of Dtilt 2, you could just cancel it into SRK if they try to shield grab.

I'm certain that can be grabbed. Positive. Shield grab is frame 6. Nothing comes out that quick after a hit,not even special cancels.

Edit: though I could always be wrong so let me know if you're able to test that in training mode

Edit 2: I was wrong, read further down

 

[PapaJ]

I'm certain that can be grabbed. Positive. Shield grab is frame 6. Nothing comes out that quick after a hit,not even special cancels.

Well keep in mind we get 100% protection from any move starting on frame 2. So if we connect it with a shield and input the SRK motion we should be able to bypass any grab/attack.

 

[icraq]

Yeah so I love it when I'm wrong. @ CyberHyperPhoenix was right. If spaced properly dtilt2 to Tatsu or hadouken are shield grab punishes. What else we got?

Dtilt 1 spaced is similarly effective.

The reason this seems to work is when Ryu special cancels his dtilts he retracts his foot fast enough so that he can't be shield grabbed. I think special cancels are the only way he can poke safely, but it does require a transition to a move very unsafe on shield

Utilt1 doesnt even need to be spaced, shoryuken beats grab.

 

[PapaJ]

Yeah so I love it when I'm wrong. @ CyberHyperPhoenix was right. If spaced properly dtilt2 to Tatsu or hadouken are shield grab punishes. What else we got?

Dtilt 1 spaced is similarly effective.

The reason this seems to work is when Ryu special cancels his dtilts he retracts his foot fast enough so that he can't be shield grabbed. I think special cancels are the only way he can poke safely, but it does require a transition to a move very unsafe on shield

Utilt1 doesnt even need to be spaced, shoryuken beats grab.

Yeah, anything into SRK is probably one of the safest ways to make sure he doesn't get sheild grabbed or punished. Only issue is if we get read and they continue shielding they get a stronger punish then a simple grab. If we use it like a counter and only do it once in a while we could make his other moves safe as long as they fear retaliation.

 

[Elessar]

Sadly in this iteration of Smash the shields are too strong, therefore nothing is really safe on shield (specially vs Sheik) unless the move has a superb kb that pushes the other char far away (little mac's fsmash). That being said, Ryu is an exception because he can cancel moves with specials but then you depend on reading your opponent, not on reacting. This means that it isn't safe. Safe means that there is enough shield stun so that your opponent can't immediately punish you, giving you time to react to his punishes rather than read. A little like the advantage and disadvantage frames in soulcalibur when attacking a guarding opponent.

So, to answer the OP original question, no, nothing is truly safe on shield. However, Ryu can counter a punish by canceling his attack with a true special.

 

[BlueBirdE]

What about canceling into a focus?

 

[PapaJ]

What about canceling into a focus?

Well Ryu can't cancel his moves to Focus he has to wait till the IASA frames or until the moves ends which still would make it unsafe especially with characters with excellent frame data, such as shiek.

 

[BlueBirdE]

I couldve sworn i could cancel a tilt into focus but i guess not :/. That being said how punishable is his moves on shield anyway. Does it need to be super precise or something so easy i REALLY have to be careful with each button i press

 

[PapaJ]

I couldve sworn i could cancel a tilt into focus but i guess not :/. That being said how punishable is his moves on shield anyway. Does it need to be super precise or something so easy i REALLY have to be careful with each button i press

For most characters this is true. Based on my matches a well spaced Fsmash, Usmash, Strong Neutral, weakTilts makes you somewhat safe on most of the cast, I use somewhat because they usually could not punish or the punish is so laughably pathetic due to how much time they had an how much distance they had to cross leaving them with a Dash attack that does ~7%. Anything else might make you unsafe and eat a bigger punish.

 

[Eonn]

Sadly in this iteration of Smash the shields are too strong, therefore nothing is really safe on shield (specially vs Sheik) unless the move has a superb kb that pushes the other char far away (little mac's fsmash). That being said, Ryu is an exception because he can cancel moves with specials but then you depend on reading your opponent, not on reacting. This means that it isn't safe. Safe means that there is enough shield stun so that your opponent can't immediately punish you, giving you time to react to his punishes rather than read. A little like the advantage and disadvantage frames in soulcalibur when attacking a guarding opponent.

So, to answer the OP original question, no, nothing is truly safe on shield. However, Ryu can counter a punish by canceling his attack with a true special.

Does this apply to all characters in the game (besides those with moves that push back the shield user)? I would think that most characters with good frame data would be able to safely attack shields to prevent counteracts (kinda like spacies pressure in Melee) but I guess there isn't enough shield stun for that.

 

[redcometchar]

Does this apply to all characters in the game (besides those with moves that push back the shield user)? I would think that most characters with good frame data would be able to safely attack shields to prevent counteracts (kinda like spacies pressure in Melee) but I guess there isn't enough shield stun for that.

Nooooo way. In previous iterations of smash you could actually PUNISH people for shielding. This is not even remotely possible in sm4sh. Even for ryu who has arguably some of the best on shield options the best that could happen is punishing an out of shield option on read. Even if Ryu cancels into a special off of strong up1 the opponent can always just hold his shield or roll or spot dodge and punish afterwards. Really anything other than a hasty punish with some exceptions liked spaced attacks, but even these can be punished on reaction, albeit less like @ Elessar said. So if your opponent shields just wait. You really don't have any safe options.

 

[PapaJ]

I couldve sworn i could cancel a tilt into focus but i guess not :/. That being said how punishable is his moves on shield anyway. Does it need to be super precise or something so easy i REALLY have to be careful with each button i press

Ok, I was wrong you can cancel Ryus moves into Focus attack. That was my bad.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Spaced Bair is probably fairly safe unless powershielded.

 

[redcometchar]

Spaced Bair is probably fairly safe unless powershielded.

Only from shield grab.

 

[icraq]

I'd say Bair is safe from almost everything. It has enough shield push back and the frame disadvantage is - 7 I believe, what is someone going to do in 7 frames if you figure it needs to be out of a dash?
Mind you this is probably going to require a late Bair..

Also I think fair might be too. But I could be wrong. And I think dsmash might be safe Vs a chunk of shields if you hit with the tip. But it might not be.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Lol all good so it can cancel into focus . Looking at possible punishes i would think a spaced move into focus cancel would be a safer punish to a dash attack punish attempt for example. Conditioning opponents to either go for a dash grab punish or safer approach instead could relieve some of our problems hitting on shield