Is across-the-board low landing lag on aerials really necessary?

[<π]

Every single aerial doesn't need to be a ground approach tool to be a good move.

Bowser didn't have aerial approach as a trade off for having one of THE BEST aerial approach tools in the game; a lagless command grab that did 18 damage. He had other strong poke options in ftilt and jab. his aerials were all high priority kill moves that would have flat out beat or at least traded with most grounded hit boxes in the game.

Ike had AMAZING range and shield stun on his aerials. Despite big landing lag on his aerial he could use them as spacing and poking tools in a lot of match ups. And even with these laggy moves that don't combo he is one of the most aggressive rush down characters in the game.

Conceding to this idea that every move needs to function the same way melee space animals did to be funtional is silly.
Believing every aerial needs to be safe on shield no matter what isn't some insane buff to defensive play. It gives more power to players who learn to space, condition and bait.

If you want these fast low risk aerial combo characters chances are they will be there. They were there in melee (fox falco), they still existed in brawl (sheik fox), and I can't imagine they won't be there in smash 4 as well.(people are already looking at sheik, greninja, and ZSS)

 

[Big-Cat]

Finally, someone with a brain.

If you want to play a character with spacie tools, play a spacie.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think a major problem with this thread is people always think of the bad examples of laggy moves. Laggy aerials can still be practical in a match if they are well designed.

Examples of well designed laggy/high-start up aerials: King Dedede's fair, King Dedede's dair, King Dedede's up air, Ike's fair, Ness' dair, Toon Link's dair, Toon Link's uair, Diddy's fair, Kirby's dair, ROB's nair, and ROB's bair.

Bad examples: Mario's fair, most of Bowser's aerials, DK's fair and dair, ect.

Slow and laggy moves can definitely be considered good depending on how they're designed.

Certain laggy aerials in Brawl, the biggest one being Link's Dair, suffered way more from an inability to combo into them than they did the loss of L-canceling. The return of hitstun bodes well for powerful aerial finishers even if they're super punishable on whiff.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Which characters, aside from Marth, actually suffer from problems with landing lag? Bowser certainly doesn't, which is definitely saying something. Also keep in mind that a tipped fair from Marth actually has legitimate kill potential now (as do other moves such as counter), and that from what we see in her trailer, Lucina appears nigh on lagless in the air. Missiles, lasers, and arrows no longer cancel on the ground (which is a similar and just as effectual nerf), but from what I'm hearing, many other characters still have multiple viable options to go with short hops.

The only reason counter seems like a kill move is because he countered an barrel with bombs in it in that one video and everyone lost their minds.

Lucina seems lag less because the only aerial we've seen her do is Neutral Air which autocancels. Marth's does as well.

F-air being a kill move is a nerf. F-air shouldn't be a "get away from me" move, nor a kill move. It should be what it was in Melee and in Brawl, to a degree. A high priority, fast spacing tool that can lead into combos. At low percents, it seems like a tipped f-air knocks the person too far back for any decent follow ups. Maybe even more so than in brawl.

And that's just the problems with one of his moves, and I didn't even talk about landing lag. Ken is definitely right when they said they broke marth.

He might still be great. He might not. He definitely isn't going to play the same way as he used to. It doesn't feel like marth.

 

[Veggi]

Certain laggy aerials in Brawl, the biggest one being Link's Dair, suffered way more from an inability to combo into them than they did the loss of L-canceling. The return of hitstun bodes well for powerful aerial finishers even if they're super punishable on whiff.

That is true, but strong moves don't have to be combo'd into to be a good move. Link's dair could be altered in other ways to make it more useful. In Brawl, there are many slow or laggy aerials that are great independently. They are usable outside of combos. What I don't really like about strong moves only being used for combos is that they lose their uniqueness. A strong move used in a combo is really only unique for its strength and direction of knockback. Both of which are objectively the best for the decision in the combo situation if it's being used. Decisions being objectively the best in competitive games is boring.

I'd prefer it if they made Link's dair do extra shield damage, even more regular damage, super armor, or something.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Now when you say 3 frames of video lag, are you sure the video is 30 fps and not 24 fps? It would be ideal if there were other videos aside from the treehouse that back all this up. It's a very bold claim when you consider Melee Fox's L-canceled B-air has more landing lag than that.

If you can indeed cancel with L, a roll could potentially fall into that.

If the video were 24 FPS, Link's jump startup doesn't work out. At one point it's 3 video frames, but every other time it's 4 video frames. That would mean that Link's jump has 8-9 frames of startup. That strikes me as excessive, even though 7 frames is already pushing it. Also, that would mean we have 16-19 frames of hitlag from Link's FAir. Again, excessive.

 

[Xiaphas]

The only reason counter seems like a kill move is because he countered an barrel with bombs in it in that one video and everyone lost their minds.

Lucina seems lag less because the only aerial we've seen her do is Neutral Air which autocancels. Marth's does as well.

F-air being a kill move is a nerf. F-air shouldn't be a "get away from me" move, nor a kill move. It should be what it was in Melee and in Brawl, to a degree. A high priority, fast spacing tool that can lead into combos. At low percents, it seems like a tipped f-air knocks the person too far back for any decent follow ups. Maybe even more so than in brawl.

And that's just the problems with one of his moves, and I didn't even talk about landing lag. Ken is definitely right when they said they broke marth.

He might still be great. He might not. He definitely isn't going to play the same way as he used to. It doesn't feel like marth.

I'm kinda hoping that Marth has a sort of technical feel, and they make Lucina fit into the niche that Marth used to fill.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I'm kinda hoping that Marth has a sort of technical feel, and they make Lucina fit into the niche that Marth used to fill.

Given how negligible the differences between Lucina and Marth are, according to Sakurai, I think she's going to be an even more lackluster Marth. No tip mechanic provides no reward for spacing. Intimate play with marth isn't good unless you are confident you can control the situation.

Maybe something else will give Marth and Lucina a new advantage. We'll have to see.

 

[Hydde]

Given how negligible the differences between Lucina and Marth are, according to Sakurai, I think she's going to be an even more lackluster Marth. No tip mechanic provides no reward for spacing. Intimate play with marth isn't good unless you are confident you can control the situation.

Maybe something else will give Marth and Lucina a new advantage. We'll have to see.

Im very worried about marth. Being a main Marth player in melee,,, i despised how they changed his whole meta in brawl..to the point he just wasnt marth. Now, it seems they even changed him more, and nerfed him in the process. I dont know what kind of marth we will see and im worried (no double fair? wtf). Marth fair hitting like a truck and sending the enemy horizontally looks werid as shid for a melee marth user like me.

Im just praying that clone Lucina will play like the melee marth...otherwise both will be ****ed royally.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Im very worried about marth. Being a main Marth player in melee,,, i despised how they changed his whole meta in brawl..to the point he just wasnt marth. Now, it seems they even changed him more, and nerfed him in the process. I dont know what kind of marth we will see and im worried (no double fair? wtf). Marth fair hitting like a truck and sending the enemy horizontally looks werid as **** for a melee marth user like me.

Im just praying that clone Lucina will play like the melee marth...otherwise both will be ****ed royally.

Having watched competitive Marth play in Melee, seeing a tipper FAir hit pop the opponent upward in the exact opposite direction of the slash looks far weirder than it launching the foe straight horizontally at crazy speeds. If anything, a horizontal launch makes more sense, not less. Also, double FAir still works, just not out of short hop. Jump > rising FAir > FAir at full height.

Also, why not just use NAir to combo? Something wrong with that idea?

 

[Xiaphas]

Just because Marth is different doesn't mean he's going to be ruined. It's just something new to get used to if you still want to main him.

 

[Hydde]

Having watched competitive Marth play in Melee, seeing a tipper FAir hit pop the opponent upward in the exact opposite direction of the slash looks far weirder than it launching the foe straight horizontally at crazy speeds. If anything, a horizontal launch makes more sense, not less. Also, double FAir still works, just not out of short hop. Jump > rising FAir > FAir at full height.

Also, why not just use NAir to combo? Something wrong with that idea?

Yes i understand your point. Let me explain better. The slashing doesnt make sense in any way because it shouldnt send anyone upwards or horizontal to start with XD. It should keep the foe in place and by slashed in two

But ok, i was refering that t was weird in the way it acted totally different from the mechanics the fair had in melee. Like you said, in melee it send the opponent upwards. Now in smash 4 it is a different move.

And yes, the double fair i was talking about was the short hooped one, not the full jump one which could be done.
Im saying all this comparing the moves to Melee´s marth which was the one i mained and have more experience with.

Just because Marth is different doesn't mean he's going to be ruined. It's just something new to get used to if you still want to main him.

Yeah, maybe he can even end being top tier in sbb4, who knows.... but like in Brawl, he just wasnt my style anymore so i stopped maining him. My finger were just not able to adapt to his new mechanics and all i knew of him just dissapeared in an instant...so there was not point in trying to play him like i used to. SO i switched mains.

 

[Bobojack]

Just because Marth is different doesn't mean he's going to be ruined. It's just something new to get used to if you still want to main him.

The difference is that he is more laggier. Thats the big problem. and dont tell me that this can be something good. He IS worse than in Brawl or at least equal. At least on the current standpoint (The game isnt out yet).

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Given how negligible the differences between Lucina and Marth are, according to Sakurai, I think she's going to be an even more lackluster Marth. No tip mechanic provides no reward for spacing. Intimate play with marth isn't good unless you are confident you can control the situation.

Maybe something else will give Marth and Lucina a new advantage. We'll have to see.

Marth's fair was changed because it was broken as heck, not because the dev team tripped a wire at the design
booth. Melee > Brawl gutted Marth pretty significantly in terms of range because in Melee it was flat out ridiculous.

The current Marth we're seeing is a testament to balance. Just because he is no longer his Melee-self does not mean he is ruined, he's just different.

Lucina has equalized power across her sword, so no tipper, but at the same time the player isn't pressured as much to accurately space for tippers, allowing them to focus mentally on other elements.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Marth's fair was changed because it was broken as heck, not because the dev team tripped a wire at the design
booth. Melee > Brawl gutted Marth pretty significantly in terms of range because in Melee it was flat out ridiculous.

The current Marth we're seeing is a testament to balance. Just because he is no longer his Melee-self does not mean he is ruined, he's just different.

Lucina has equalized power across her sword, so no tipper, but at the same time the player isn't pressured as much to accurately space for tippers, allowing them to focus mentally on other elements.

I'm not saying it wasn't an amazing move, I'm saying that I wish he was balanced while still retaining his old playstyle. It's him playing different that I have a problem with.

 

[Senario]

I'm not saying it wasn't an amazing move, I'm saying that I wish he was balanced while still retaining his old playstyle. It's him playing different that I have a problem with.

I can get that. In other fighting games it is typical to have similar styles of play for the same character throughout game versions even if the specific moves are different. Like some chars are rushdown and others are not. For marth you expect him to play like his first game melee which is fine. If falcon is good again i would be very disappointed if he wasnt reminiscent of his melee playstyle with the awesome knees. Having marth not kill by spike/forward smash/poke off stage and instead kill with a sideways launcher is weird.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm not saying it wasn't an amazing move, I'm saying that I wish he was balanced while still retaining his old playstyle. It's him playing different that I have a problem with.

I really don't think he's as "different" as you're implying though. If you've played Marth before you're probably going to be very familiarized with the character even as he is in Smash 4.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I really don't think he's as "different" as you're implying though. If you've played Marth before you're probably going to be very familiarized with the character even as he is in Smash 4.

I played him in Melee, Brawl, and at best buy. F-air is dangerous fastfalled, d-tilt range is awful, f-smash is even more risky, dancing blade's lag on the first slash makes it risky, and grabs are now kill moves. Besides N-air, I had to play marth significantly differently to win a handful of matches.

Sure, more testing needs to be done. But I can't say I had a good experience. Other Marth mains were just as disappointed. He's still marth, but the game punishes you for being him.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I played him in Melee, Brawl, and at best buy. F-air is dangerous fastfalled, d-tilt range is awful, f-smash is even more risky, dancing blade's lag on the first slash makes it risky, and grabs are now kill moves. Besides N-air, I had to play marth significantly differently to win a handful of matches.

Sure, more testing needs to be done. But I can't say I had a good experience. Other Marth mains were just as disappointed. He's still marth, but the game punishes you for being him.

It will likely take a different approach to the character to become proficient with him, but I doubt Sakurai is taking any shortcuts on his modifications. Marth will still very likely be an effective character.

Of course past Marth mains are going to feel a bit miffed, because the stuff they've been doing for years all the sudden just doesn't work as well as it used to. He was modified. You will have to change how you approach playing him. Once you get used to his changes, I'm sure you'll be back to swiping people off screen in no time.

The fact of the matter is Marth (and to a degree both in Brawl and Melee) needed a change. He had a significantly imposing playstyle with the sword that just didn't make him an equalized character to others in terms of effort necessary to be effective.

Change can be scary but just remember that this is Smash 4. It'll pan out.

 

[Bobojack]

What do you mean with "but just remember that this is smash 4"?

 

[HeavyLobster]

What do you mean with "but just remember that this is smash 4"?

It's a whole new world we live in,
It's a whole new way to see!
It's a brand new Smash,
With a brand new attitude,
But you've still gotta smash em all,
And be the best that you can be. (Sing while playing below video for best effect)

 

[JV5Chris]

If the video were 24 FPS, Link's jump startup doesn't work out. At one point it's 3 video frames, but every other time it's 4 video frames. That would mean that Link's jump has 8-9 frames of startup. That strikes me as excessive, even though 7 frames is already pushing it. Also, that would mean we have 16-19 frames of hitlag from Link's FAir. Again, excessive.

Don't know how you're getting these numbers. A 24fps video of a 60fps game is going to be wildly inconsistent and inaccurate if you're trying to measure frames. An actual 30fps capture is not perfect either, but it can be doubled for an approximation.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Don't know how you're getting these numbers. A 24fps video of a 60fps game is going to be wildly inconsistent and inaccurate if you're trying to measure frames. An actual 30fps capture is not perfect either, but it can be doubled for an approximation.

It's pretty easy to just use multipliers, really. And then just grab whichever numbers are in the overlap between 3 frames at 24 and 4 frames at 24.

60 fps game / 30 fps video = 2x multiplier. (Pretty obvious, right?)
So 60 fps game / 24 fps video = 2.5x multiplier. Only thing is you have a much wider margin of error, but even then it's just an extra 2 frames higher or lower.
3 video frames x 2.5 game frames / 1 video frame ± 1.5 game frames = 6-9 frames.
4 video frames x 2.5 game frames / 1 video frame ± 1.5 game frames = 8.5-11.5 frames (so effectively 8-12 frames, I'd guess).

Correct me if my math is wrong, though.

 

[JV5Chris]

Feel free to disagree with me, but I personally don't consider more than a frame margin of error a dependable metric for this.

 

[topspin1617]

I think a major problem with this thread is people always think of the bad examples of laggy moves. Laggy aerials can still be practical in a match if they are well designed.

Examples of well designed laggy/high-start up aerials: King Dedede's fair, King Dedede's dair, King Dedede's up air, Ike's fair, Ness' dair, Toon Link's dair, Toon Link's uair, Diddy's fair, Kirby's dair, ROB's nair, and ROB's bair.

Bad examples: Mario's fair, most of Bowser's aerials, DK's fair and dair, ect.

Slow and laggy moves can definitely be considered good depending on how they're designed.

Sorry if this is a bad question, but what makes your "bad" examples actually bad, in comparison to the "well-designed" examples? Like Mario's fair has been (and still is?) a powerful KO move; why is having high endlag on it bad, as compared to something like Link's dair where it isn't "bad"?

The only reason counter seems like a kill move is because he countered an barrel with bombs in it in that one video and everyone lost their minds.

Lucina seems lag less because the only aerial we've seen her do is Neutral Air which autocancels. Marth's does as well.

F-air being a kill move is a nerf. F-air shouldn't be a "get away from me" move, nor a kill move. It should be what it was in Melee and in Brawl, to a degree. A high priority, fast spacing tool that can lead into combos. At low percents, it seems like a tipped f-air knocks the person too far back for any decent follow ups. Maybe even more so than in brawl.

And that's just the problems with one of his moves, and I didn't even talk about landing lag. Ken is definitely right when they said they broke marth.

He might still be great. He might not. He definitely isn't going to play the same way as he used to. It doesn't feel like marth.

Marth isn't "broke". We don't have the full game yet, but I'd be shocked if Marth wasn't still pretty high on the tier list. You can't have the mindset that any change is automatically a nerf; sometimes a change is just a change. We're all going to have to relearn our mains for Smash 4; even if they don't have any different attacks, most will have different properties on some abilities, either by design or because this is simply a new game. You change the physics, the speed, you change characters' strengths and weaknesses.

Just because a move used to be a combo move, or a KO move, or a spacing move, doesn't mean that it "should" always be that way. Changes don't have to be a bad thing. It's kind of ironic because when we see a veteran not changed much it's "Sakurai y u no change my character and make him difrrent n better!", but when they do receive changes (not nerfs, changes), it's "Sakurai y u change my character he shud be xact same as be4!"

 

[Veggi]

Sorry if this is a bad question, but what makes your "bad" examples actually bad, in comparison to the "well-designed" examples? Like Mario's fair has been (and still is?) a powerful KO move; why is having high endlag on it bad, as compared to something like Link's dair where it isn't "bad"?

No problem! Mario's far is very rarely used to KO people. Most of Mario's non-gimp KO's are with smash attacks or a fresh bair/nair. Because two of his most used aerials are also are more reliable killers than his fair, it's kind of obvious that there's a problem. Mario's fair isn't strong enough to be a decent KO move and it's too slow to be one as well. Mario's fair is slow, not very strong, has lots of recovery time, and not very much range. Mario's fair isn't completely useless, but the amount of worth he gets out of that aerial is way less than any of his other aerials. For example, sometimes he can link a fireball into fair offstage at certain angles to meteor smash or meteor smash someone with a predictable recovery, but it's rare.

I was actually talking about Toon Link specifically. Toon Link's dair is used by great Toon Link players much more often than Mario's fair is used by great Mario players because dair produces better results. Toon Link can use his dair to beat other attacks and it can bounce off shields or be able to be combo'd into to keep him safe. If Mario tries his fair in most situations he will easily be punished because it isn't even close to safe on shield and most other moves will beat it by being faster or having longer range.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Marth isn't "broke". We don't have the full game yet, but I'd be shocked if Marth wasn't still pretty high on the tier list. You can't have the mindset that any change is automatically a nerf; sometimes a change is just a change. We're all going to have to relearn our mains for Smash 4; even if they don't have any different attacks, most will have different properties on some abilities, either by design or because this is simply a new game. You change the physics, the speed, you change characters' strengths and weaknesses.

Just because a move used to be a combo move, or a KO move, or a spacing move, doesn't mean that it "should" always be that way. Changes don't have to be a bad thing. It's kind of ironic because when we see a veteran not changed much it's "Sakurai y u no change my character and make him difrrent n better!", but when they do receive changes (not nerfs, changes), it's "Sakurai y u change my character he shud be xact same as be4!"

I already addressed this. Regardless of whether or not he's been nerfed overall, he doesn't feel like Marth. He's supposed to be agile, stringing one move swiftly into the next - if everything of his has been turned into a "get-away-from-me" move, then he isn't Marth.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

No problem! Mario's far is very rarely used to KO people. Most of Mario's non-gimp KO's are with smash attacks or a fresh bair/nair. Because two of his most used aerials are also are more reliable killers than his fair, it's kind of obvious that there's a problem. Mario's fair isn't strong enough to be a decent KO move and it's too slow to be one as well. Mario's fair is slow, not very strong, has lots of recovery time, and not very much range. Mario's fair isn't completely useless, but the amount of worth he gets out of that aerial is way less than any of his other aerials. For example, sometimes he can link a fireball into fair offstage at certain angles to meteor smash or meteor smash someone with a predictable recovery, but it's rare.

I was actually talking about Toon Link specifically. Toon Link's dair is used by great Toon Link players much more often than Mario's fair is used by great Mario players because dair produces better results. Toon Link can use his dair to beat other attacks and it can bounce off shields or be able to be combo'd into to keep him safe. If Mario tries his fair in most situations he will easily be punished because it isn't even close to safe on shield and most other moves will beat it by being faster or having longer range.

Thing is, Mario's FAir looks to be easier to combo into now. (I did mention that in VGBootcamp's Mario moveset video, we see them combo Mario's third jab hit into FAir for a Meteor KO vs. Bowser, right?) Also, TLink's DAir no longer bounces, or at least you now have to hit within a specific window for it to bounce or something.

 

[LancerStaff]

I already addressed this. Regardless of whether or not he's been nerfed overall, he doesn't feel like Marth. He's supposed to be agile, stringing one move swiftly into the next - if everything of his has been turned into a "get-away-from-me" move, then he isn't Marth.

Look at SSB4 Pit for a moment.
He's had what were previously his signature moves, his Uspecial and Nspecial, basically nerfed along with gliding being removed. Pit's defensive game will be much, much weaker then before. But who's to say he still won't be just as defensive as before in comparison? You see, if they don't rebalance characters then you'll end up with something like ZSS in the demo. No, his best moves aren't as good as before, but it's completely necessary for balancing. Changing one move isn't going to completely change the character's playstyle. Look at Pit again, most Pit players are happy with the changes because we get the gist of how he was rebalanced. We don't know what's up with Marth yet because we weren't explicitly told what's better about him.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Look at SSB4 Pit for a moment.
He's had what were previously his signature moves, his Uspecial and Nspecial, basically nerfed along with gliding being removed. Pit's defensive game will be much, much weaker then before. But who's to say he still won't be just as defensive as before in comparison? You see, if they don't rebalance characters then you'll end up with something like ZSS in the demo. No, his best moves aren't as good as before, but it's completely necessary for balancing. Changing one move isn't going to completely change the character's playstyle. Look at Pit again, most Pit players are happy with the changes because we get the gist of how he was rebalanced. We don't know what's up with Marth yet because we weren't explicitly told what's better about him.

Again, I already addressed this. F-air isn't the only move that has been changed. Every staple move that Marth uses besides N-air has been altered for the worse. Still, I'm not saying that things will be all bad.

My beef is with the fact that Marth's changes undeniably change how he feels. He feels relatively clunky and risky when he is supposed to be swift and agile.

I'm all for rebalancing, but as long as Marth get's to retain his playstyle. Nerf his attack strength, lessen his priority, but don't throw the way he has been playing for the past 13 years out the window.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Look at SSB4 Pit for a moment.
He's had what were previously his signature moves, his Uspecial and Nspecial, basically nerfed along with gliding being removed. Pit's defensive game will be much, much weaker then before. But who's to say he still won't be just as defensive as before in comparison? You see, if they don't rebalance characters then you'll end up with something like ZSS in the demo. No, his best moves aren't as good as before, but it's completely necessary for balancing. Changing one move isn't going to completely change the character's playstyle. Look at Pit again, most Pit players are happy with the changes because we get the gist of how he was rebalanced. We don't know what's up with Marth yet because we weren't explicitly told what's better about him.

Actually, Pit's entire style looks to be rebalanced towards offence. Yes he has a reflector with a windbox, but all of his defensive moves (NSpecial, DSpecial, SSpecial) have been gutted and most replaced with offensive options. (NSpecial looks like it's probably more of an approach tool now, DSpecial is now just a reflector with a wind effect and seemingly does not block physical attacks, SSpecial went from a defensive spacing move that reflects projectiles to a super-armoured approach that deflects certain projectiles on the way to the opponent.)

 

[LancerStaff]

Again, I already addressed this. F-air isn't the only move that has been changed. Every staple move that Marth uses besides N-air has been altered for the worse. Still, I'm not saying that things will be all bad.

My beef is with the fact that Marth's changes undeniably change how he feels. He feels relatively clunky and risky when he is supposed to be swift and agile.

I'm all for rebalancing, but as long as Marth get's to retain his playstyle. Nerf his attack strength, lessen his priority, but don't throw the way he has been playing for the past 13 years out the window.

I just said that Pit's previous staples were completely gutted and core playstyle changed. And yet, people are happy with the changes. You should see how he turns out before swearing the character off.

Actually, Pit's entire style looks to be rebalanced towards offence. Yes he has a reflector with a windbox, but all of his defensive moves (NSpecial, DSpecial, SSpecial) have been gutted and most replaced with offensive options. (NSpecial looks like it's probably more of an approach tool now, DSpecial is now just a reflector with a wind effect and seemingly does not block physical attacks, SSpecial went from a defensive spacing move that reflects projectiles to a super-armoured approach that deflects certain projectiles on the way to the opponent.)

Somebody said that Pit can still arrow plank effectively, canceling the now higher end-lag in the process. Dspecial does indeed block attacks, and Pit has super armor on the move. Uspecial could still easily be used for escapes, just not nearly as freely. And the two Sspecials actually share a bit of utility: Dealing with projectiles while moving forward. The projectile deflection wasn't a result of the new move, by the way. It's a result of the new way solid projectiles interact with attacks. Remember when ZSS kicked a Gordo back at DDD? Why would a spiky ball, of all things, have special properties to be attacked back? Simple, the property isn't unique to it.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It's a result of the new way solid projectiles interact with attacks. Remember when ZSS kicked a Gordo back at DDD? Why would a spiky ball, of all things, have special properties to be attacked back? Simple, the property isn't unique to it.

We saw him deflect Samus's Charge Shot. Does that count as a solid projectile now? And if it does, that's freakin' awesome. Captain Falcon confirmed to be even more badace.

Samus: *fires charge shot*
Captain Falcon: "FALCOWN... PAWNCH!"
Samus: "Oh ****!" *is KO'd by own charge shot*

Also Sonic confirmed to have actual approach options. Just kick projectiles back at people and then chase them.

 

[Veggi]

Thing is, Mario's FAir looks to be easier to combo into now. (I did mention that in VGBootcamp's Mario moveset video, we see them combo Mario's third jab hit into FAir for a Meteor KO vs. Bowser, right?) Also, TLink's DAir no longer bounces, or at least you now have to hit within a specific window for it to bounce or something.

I was just explaining that slow moves aren't inherently bad. It's totally possible that some bad moves from Brawl could become good moves and vice-versa.

 

[LancerStaff]

We saw him deflect Samus's Charge Shot. Does that count as a solid projectile now? And if it does, that's freakin' awesome. Captain Falcon confirmed to be even more badace.

Samus: *fires charge shot*
Captain Falcon: "FALCOWN... PAWNCH!"
Samus: "Oh ****!" *is KO'd by own charge shot*

Also Sonic confirmed to have actual approach options. Just kick projectiles back at people and then chase them.

Hm? Never saw that happen. Gotta link?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Hm? Never saw that happen. Gotta link?

I'll see if I can't find it, but it would've been Treehouse or SDCC Wii U footage.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll see if I can't find it, but it would've been Treehouse or SDCC Wii U footage.

I've seen all but SDCC day two, if that helps.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The difference is that he is more laggier. Thats the big problem. and dont tell me that this can be something good. He IS worse than in Brawl or at least equal. At least on the current standpoint (The game isnt out yet).

marth was high tier in brawl sooooo yeah.