Infinite Grabs

[Jellyfishn]

I'm confused, why are people for things like standing infinites, but then enforce a LGL?

Surely D3's standing infinites on DK and Bowser are at least equally OP as whatever MK can do on stages like Brinstar without any restrictions.

Also, if D3 could standing infinite the entire cast, the infinite would probably get banned. I don't see why it should be legal simply because it only works on a couple of characters.

Standing Infinites are limited to 300%. Ledge grabs are also limited. The only reason infinites are banned past 300% is to stop stalling. The Ledge Grab Limit is also enforced because of stalling.

I see no problem here. Ledge grab Limit was not created because Meta Knight is a god on the ledge. It was created to stop idiots from camping on the ledge, and making the game go to time to get an easy win.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I see no problem here. Ledge grab Limit was not created because Meta Knight is a god on the ledge. It was created to stop idiots from camping on the ledge, and making the game go to time to get an easy win.

Actually, the LGL was created to limit Meta Knight. For whatever reason, they decided to make it apply to everyone else. The fact that it only affected him at first proves that.

Not to say that the LGL still existing during the Meta Knight ban isn't the reason you listed, however.

 

[Jellyfishn]

Actually, the LGL was created to limit Meta Knight. For whatever reason, they decided to make it apply to everyone else. The fact that it only affected him at first proves that.

Not to say that the LGL still existing during the Meta Knight ban isn't the reason you listed, however.

True. I could be wrong but was it not created to stop Meta Knight players from stalling though? At the time they only thought Meta-Knight was really effective at it.

I could be wrong but that's what I thought. If not, the Ledge Grab Limit was stupid from the start. : )

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

True. I could be wrong but was it not created to stop Meta Knight players from stalling though? At the time they only thought Meta-Knight was really effective at it.

To limit his planking, not stalling.

I could be wrong but that's what I thought. If not, the Ledge Grab Limit was stupid from the start. : )

It is there still for stalling, though. That's what I tried to say earlier. Sorry if I sounded weird.

It was stupid from the start. It does actually give Falco an advantage due to his Laser Spam on any mostly/fully flat level. But it does slightly help to make them fight more. It just sucks for people to lose to Falco solely because of that.

Same with any similar issues, really.

 

[Arcansi]

We don't ban things to gain game depth either. We ban things the detrimentally detract from it.

Really? I mean, a detrimental loss of game depth is detrimentally detracting from our game, is it not?

It was stupid from the start. It does actually give Falco an advantage due to his Laser Spam on any mostly/fully flat level. But it does slightly help to make them fight more. It just sucks for people to lose to Falco solely because of that.

Same with any similar issues, really.

Is it better for falco lose because of his character's limitations?

Is it better for the above to happen with 5 mins of planking by falco's opponent?

 

[Dre89]

It doesn't matter why the LGL was put in place, it was to stop something that was clearly OP. Standing infinites are at least as OP as unrestricted MK.

Again if D3 could standing infinite the entire cast the infinite would be banned. So it's silly to keep it legal simply because it works only on a couple of characters.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Just like how Ice climbers infinites are banned because they are op?

 

[-LzR-]

It doesn't matter why the LGL was put in place, it was to stop something that was clearly OP. Standing infinites are at least as OP as unrestricted MK.

Again if D3 could standing infinite the entire cast the infinite would be banned. So it's silly to keep it legal simply because it works only on a couple of characters.

Because Dedede can only practically infinite DK and some others with theorycraft bull**** means that it's legit. If he could do it on everyone it would be broken. But because it only works on a few characters it means you can just pick one of the million characters who **** Dedede instead. Counterpicking (or MK) is a huge part of this game bro.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Just like how Ice climbers infinites are banned because they are op?

I thought it and he said it

lol

It's funny cuz the ICs DO infinite the entire cast, and it's not banned. So clearly D3 hypothetically infiniting the entire cast would be no different. Bobwithlobsters made that point using sarcasm, get it?

lololololol

 

[Dre89]

Because Dedede can only practically infinite DK and some others with theorycraft bull**** means that it's legit. If he could do it on everyone it would be broken. But because it only works on a few characters it means you can just pick one of the million characters who **** Dedede instead. Counterpicking (or MK) is a huge part of this game bro.

And you can pick MK to go against unrestricted MK as well.

 

[-LzR-]

I am proban so your argument doesn't really work against me

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The LGL isn't in place to nerf MKs OP planking. If it was, it wouldn't only apply in the case of a timeout. The LGL is to prevent stalling, just like the 300% rule on infinites. The LGL occasionally penalizing players for planking is a side effect, not the purpose.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I still don't understand how planking isn't a form of stalling (unless of course, the other person is against the ledge and trying to hit them)

 

[-LzR-]

Well then if you will, tell me when I'm stalling and not just trying to wait for a position to get back on the stage or force my opponent to do something stupid so I can punish them?

 

[Dre89]

D3's standing infinite breaks the MUs that it works in, but because it's only like 5 chars no one cares. Really though, by this logic we could say IDC could be legal against 5 chars too.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah and Marths fair should totally be banned as it can absolutely destroy certain crappy characters.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah and Marths fair should totally be banned as it can absolutely destroy certain crappy characters.

So now you're comparing having to space well an entire stock, deal with mix ups etc. with just getting one grab?

 

[-LzR-]

Doesn't matter, both moves win games.

 

[Dre89]

That's terrible logic.

By that logic ubers would be legal in pokemon because their maximum potential, which is sweeping an entire team can also be done by non uber pokemon.

The reason they're uber is because of the excessive likelihood of achieving that feat, and because of the minimal risk compared to the high reward of using them.

D3's one grab is much more likely to take a stock than a Marth attempting to space perfectly, and has a much lower risk.

 

[Jimmy?]

That's not really analogous. Pokémon sweepers take out teams. That's, you know, six other Pokémon.

Dedede's grabs do not infinite that many characters (I don't think....), and even if he did, there are counters to that. Unlike with Pokémon, you can switch your character in Brawl around between matches. It's not over after three stocks, it takes at least six.

Marth's fair isn't as good against anyone as Dedede's grab is against DK, but banning it is kind of dumb.... I mean, why don't we just ban all walk offs, all wall infinites, locks, and the Ice Climbers....

(The answer: because no.)

 

[Dre89]

Many stages are banned because they allow permanent wall infinites.

Yes the infinite only works on a couple of chars but the point is that it's basically the equivalent of them versing IDC.

 

[Jimmy?]

But there are still legal stages with walls. I say ban Delfino, Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate, and anywhere else I forgot to mention that has a wall for any part of the stage. It's unfair for people who can't trap other characters there.

Banning something that's difficult to overcome for a handful of characters is really pointless. That's the point of having alts, to cover your bad matchups. If you have a tough match up that you can't beat with your character just based on the basic tools available to you, then.... sorry? You can't just ban things you think are hard to work around, you just have to work around them in a different way. That's what counterpicks are for.

Everyone should main Metaknight. :mad079:

 

[Kink-Link5]

Most of the stages that have wall infinites should probably be banned but not because of the walls infinites. Rather the fact that putting up the walls stagnates gameplay to a zero-sum game that only serves to draw out a match.

Everyone should main Metaknight. :mad079:

Obviously.

 

[Lukingordex]

Everyone should main Metaknight. :mad079:

 

[Strong Badam]

argumentum ad populum isn't a fallacy when you're making a ruleset in the hopes that a majority of people like it enough to attend your tourneys buddy.

 

[Ghostbone]

argumentum ad populum isn't a fallacy when you're making a ruleset in the hopes that a majority of people like it enough to attend your tourneys buddy.

This, omg so much this why am I agreeing with Strong Bad this.

 

[The Ben]

argumentum ad populum isn't a fallacy when you're making a ruleset in the hopes that a majority of people like it enough to attend your tourneys buddy.

This but both ways, sorta. I don't think either side is arguing that appealing to a mass of people is wrong, but rather which people we should be appealing to in the first place.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Welcome to Brawl, where the most important thing in the metagame is knowing how to grab someone or how to avoid being grabbed.
EDIT: Oh, and DACUS. But that's easy with a 10 frame buffer.

 

[Lukingordex]

Only if you faces Ice Climbers,D3,or another character with CGs. (Almost all the cast except the low tiers lol)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nearly every character has stupid grab stuff honestly.

Grab releases set up for easy 50/50 reads and worse depending on the character, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but pummeling helps negate stale moves by a huge amount, meaning, yes, grabs are one of the most important things in the meta.

 

[1048576]

D3's standing infinite breaks the MUs that it works in, but because it's only like 5 chars no one cares. Really though, by this logic we could say IDC could be legal against 5 chars too.

we have this. if sheik gets a lead on ganon on certain stages she can just chain for 8 minutes and dorf has no way to get in. The key is overcentralization.

 

[-LzR-]

Ganon can indeed beat the chain. Isn't the whole deal just pure theorycrafting anyways?

 

[Muhti]

Everyone should main Metaknight. :mad079:

Can I laugh now?

 

[Lukingordex]

No,because this is old.