Increasing Tournament Population

[Pierce7d]

It's always been a big question for me why we would consider a tournament with 60 attendees, large. It's one of those things that make me go "Really, is that all we could come up with?" I'm relatively new to the tournament scene, only starting to play competative Melee in late '06. Still, it bugs me to know that there are SO many players out there, that have never even tried to get their feet wet. I want us as a community to figure out ways to help the community grow. Let's get real, if we don't figure out a way to get new players involved, we'll die out, and the competative scene will fade. None of us want that to happen, so here's a big chance to brainstorm ways to avoid that. Seriously, there are SO many people that play this game. Next time you go out to a tourney, and your ride has an empty seat, invite along some friend of yours that loves the game, and show them WHY you're into competative smash.

A) How did you discover the competative scene?

For me, YouTube was a MAJOR factor in attracting me into the tournament scene. It's common for gamers to watch videos of their favorite games, but many of them never get involved.I think it would be a VERY GOOD IDEA if we attached invitations to tournaments to the general populace, or at least useful links to areas on Smashboards, or even a link to take a person to write you a message in your PM box on Smashboards, in our YouTube videos.

YouTube is a HUGE mass media resource, and it's free for us to use. I see videos with hundreds, and even thousands of hits, and there is virtually nothing except the match itself to draw in the matches. Imagine if in the video, you put a link to Smashboards, or even in the video description, just information and advertisements, to get casual players to take a look around. This could considerably help the tournament scene.

B) How did YOU get into the competative scene, and why did you stay?
No one ever goes to their first tournament and wrecks everyone, coming out with cash. In fact, MOST people lose round one, realizing that they nearly as good as they thought they were. The trick is sportsmanship and encouragement. Seriously, introducing yourself to players you've never met, and a good game, with either a compliment about some aspect of the match, or a positive tip can go a long way. Players need to feel like they will GET BETTER by attending tournaments, or they won't bother coming. No one likes to lose all day, over and over. I remember my first tourney at the NYC Weeklies. I showed up half an hour early with my best friend, and NY Melee player, X, showed me the ropes, and explained how things were done. AceMarth, D1, and R3no were all very welcoming, and the sense of comradeship definitely encouraged my return. It's very nice to know that there will be friends at a tournament you are going to. In fact, that's why I still attend tournaments today. Once we manage to get a new player involved in the scene, do your best to keep them there.

I know Inui here in NJ does a fine job of creating a very close community. Sometimes after smashfests, or tourneys that end early, he and Atomsk will decided that we should all go out to a local diner and eat. Often in the city, groups of us would get together and go out to McDonalds. Make sure new players don't feel excluded. Who knows, you might make a valuable friend.

C) How did you realize becoming a competative player wasn't an unattainable goal?

Seriously, I know everyone reading this thread knows someone that loves Brawl, but that person thinks that there is some supreme obstacle lying in their path, ready to stop them from entering the competative scene. Simply destroying your friends over might be fun, but I assure you, it's more fun to play people on your level. Winning all the time is only a very slight notch up from losing all the time. Teach your friends the ins and outs of what competative play is all about. Help them develop good habits. Strive to make them as good as you. It actually can help tremendously, especially if they begin to take interest, and it snowballs. Brawl is not nearly as technical as Melee. There are very few things in Brawl that I can do, that I can't teach someone else how to do in a matter of minutes. Help to destroy the mass illusion that playing competitively is something that you have to be born with the knack to do.

D) How did you overcome your transportation barrier?

At first, I thought traveling to tournaments was impossible. NJ Transit is such a tremendous piece of garbage, I didn't think is was plausible to ever get to a tournament I couldn't persuade my parents to drive to, and for a long time, I didn't even know there were local tournaments. It took intense research just to figure out that the NYC weeklies were merely a bus ride and a train ride away. If you have ways to get people to tourneys, get that information out there.

E) Did you ever meet any competative players before you got involved in the scene?

I'm sure most of us have heard of the names of some top player(s) before we actually attended our first tournament. It could be very encouraging to have local top players meet some of your friends, play with them a bit, etc. Invite them over, have small gatherings outside of tournaments just to play friendlies. Prior interaction with competative players, or even distant inspiring words, can really go a long way towards getting people involved in tournament play.

F) Get hyped!

Not a question, but seriously, make a big deal out of it. Show that being a Smasher is something to be proud of, and make it seem like the thing to do, because it is!

G) Do you feel you have an chance at getting payed?

A huge factor in the competition is that big chance of winning the pot when it's all over. However, it's usually a surprise who the top 3 are at the end of any given event. In fact, sometimes it feels like going to a weekly tournament is just helping to write the paycheck of whoever the top player is in your region. Perhaps a wider payout spread in general would greatly help ease the mind of players entering the tourney, providing them with a greater chance to win some money. We commonly pay out top 3 at a weekly tourneys, and top 5 at larger ones (at least, that's how we do it here on the EC). TOs should inquire if their communities would prefer a wider payout. I agree that the top players, and the player that wins should receive the primary reward, because that's what the competition is all about. However, we should realize that keeping the scene alive is also very important, and take steps towards maintaining healthy tournament attendance. After all, first place winning only 50 percent of a pot with 3 times as many people in attendance is still winning MUCH more money.

Also, it's okay to advertise tournaments offline. Just a few flyers, etc. You never know. I'm not asking people to dig deep in their wallets and put out a televised or radio infomercial. Just be proactive.

So what do the rest of you think? Personally, it's always struck me as silly that with a game as popular as Smash, that we can expect less than 40 players to show up on average, and that if a tourney has 60 players, it's really hyped. There are SO many people that LOVE Brawl all around us, but they just don't know we're right here. Let's bring them home.

 

[CT Chia]

Good read, some reasons why the community isn't growing as large and as rapidly as we may like...

1. The average age of "smashers:"
While the average age of a tourney attendee is normally around their late teens or early 20s, the overall population of the smash community is far younger. This makes traveling to tournies near impossible for most with parents afraid to let them travel by themselves via public trans, or get rides from friends their parents have never met before. Just look at the crazy amount of players on AiB in the online community. That's where they are forced to go.

2. Money:
As much as people love the competition and play smash, people just don't see it as reasonable to drop $25 down on a tourney that they know they would lose.

You do give me some new ideas for advertising CoT4 however, primarily through YouTube, which I will start working on.

 

[Pierce7d]

Good read, some reasons why the community isn't growing as large and as rapidly as we may like...

1. The average age of "smashers:"
While the average age of a tourney attendee is normally around their late teens or early 20s, the overall population of the smash community is far younger. This makes traveling to tournies near impossible for most with parents afraid to let them travel by themselves via public trans, or get rides from friends their parents have never met before. Just look at the crazy amount of players on AiB in the online community. That's where they are forced to go.

2. Money:
As much as people love the competition and play smash, people just don't see it as reasonable to drop $25 down on a tourney that they know they would lose.

You do give me some new ideas for advertising CoT4 however, primarily through YouTube, which I will start working on.

I would agree that the average 13 year old kid is not ready to start trying to hold his own with top smashers. Even still, I'm only 17 (I'll be 18 on Marth 28 people, get hyped) and I went to my first tourney when I was 16 I believe.

The average person who plays Smash a lot and is in high school still doesn't really get any type of decent exposure to the Smash scene. We need to reach out to these people, to help our community grow. There's not even one person from each TOWN that knows about tourneys, and many of these kids have plenty of talent and ambition; they just have no knowledge of a target at which they could point it. Casual Smashers of ALL ages are everywhere.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I wrote something similar regarding Guilty Gear/BlazBlue a few months ago. Although alot of it is targeted directly at the GG/BB community, I suppose there are some general ideas that you may find useful.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5082

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The transportation issue is a lot more worrysome if you live in a region like the Midwest. The reason I have troubles growing the scene around here is that I can't convince people that it's worth their while to drive hours to tournaments they won't be winning anyway... which is basically what smash in Missouri is to random people who don't have a real shot at winning. Yeah, if you cheat and live in some unfair state like New Jersey where you practically have a good tournament every weekend within a short trip, then I don't see why anyone who likes the game wouldn't play in tournaments. However, if you live in a region where everything is hours away from everything else, it's a lot easier to understand.

Further consider that even though I live in the Midwest (the real Midwest, not Michigan), at least it's a part of the US so there are a lot of good scenes around (Wichita, Kansas City, and St. Louis are all very high quality). What do you say to someone who lives in a part of Canada that is more than a day's trip away from any sort of scene? Europeans and Australians also probably run into this a lot too, and we can just feel sorry for anyone who lives in the regions of the world that Smashboards puts in the "other" regional zone.

I really don't know how we could possibly hope to grow the scene beyond what we already have when you consider regions where things are not close together. There is just not an easy solution to the transportation issue; you have to both be personally dedicated AND have access to transportation resources, and even then you could be screwed if you just happen to live somewhere that is the middle of smash nowhere.

 

[Vyse]

I'm always hungry for ideas when it comes to increasing tournament goer population.
In Australia, a turnout of even 30 people is quite respectable. I've found that catchy, well made flyers in the right places will work. At your local arcade, LAN, malls, schools, gaming retailers.

I'm hoping to use Uni next year as a means of drawing in more players.

 

[metalmonstar]

Really good read.

Getting new players into the scene is critical but possibly the most difficult task. Most people who play video games don't really enjoy the idea of paying to play. Hold a local free tournament, then at the end hand out a survey asking how many people would be willing to pay. Most will flat out say no, the next group will say they are only willing to pay five bucks and the last group is only willing to pay 10. For the most part unless they win the tournament they aren't going to want to dish out their money only to lose it. I believe a solution to this is making it seem that they aren't just wasting their money to lose to someone better. Make it seem that they are paying for a fun community event.

Also, the competitive scene has been going on for a while now. A lot of players know each other already, sometimes this leaves new players to feel left out. It may be in the TOs best interest to ask for people to buddy up with any newbies in order to make their experience more enjoyable. Without new people the scene can never get bigger. So it is in everyone's interest to cater to the new players.

Also if you are going to a tournament ask if your friends would like to come. Find people in your local area that would like to come with you. Maybe if it is a cheap event offer to pay their way also. Bringing in new people allows for growth.

Finally we need an image change. A lot of casual sites think of us as elitist jerks who don't know how to have fun and ruin the game. It is imperative that we show them that is not how we are like.

 

[Kief]

this is a great thread. i'll be running my first local tournament next week and im finding that getting people to come is incredibly hard.

i also agree with what metalmonstar said, especially the last part. me being a nOOb, i'd like to be able to ask what something is without fear of being harassed lol. (it's not to be implied because of my main that im talking about the link boards cus im not. they're actually very friendly. but all around smashboards there are some people who could be a bit nicer)

 

[Pierce7d]

this is a great thread. i'll be running my first local tournament next week and im finding that getting people to come is incredibly hard.

i also agree with what metalmonstar said, especially the last part. me being a nOOb, i'd like to be able to ask what something is without fear of being harassed lol. (it's not to be implied because of my main that im talking about the link boards cus im not. they're actually very friendly. but all around smashboards there are some people who could be a bit nicer)

Well, fortunately my experience has shown me that people are much nicer in person than they are on Smashboards.

I'm interested in the idea of throwing Smashfests (of course a venue fee would probably still be required) instead of tournaments. This way, it would be a way to get a bunch of smashers out, and it would be cheap enough so that many people would be interested in coming. It's a good chance to have new players and experience players mix in a non-competative environment. The question is, how do we persuade veteran tourney players to attend these Smashfests? It will probably be much easier to persuade non-competative smash players to come to a 10$ smashfest, but without a significant number of regulars in attendance, it wouldn't matter, nor would it be affordable.

 

[dumba989]

You make a very interesting point here, because i have a friend in GA who thinks that he is the s*** in Brawl because i get involved with the community and do tricks that he has never seen before, and when he finally beats me, he talks trash, but i want him to go to a tourney and get the real experience so he can see what competetive gaming is all about, because he is the person that likes to play with friends all the time, and i think that is boring beating the same people over and over again without some sort of improvement. And my little brother, who is 14, thinks that he is too young to travel and stuff by himself on the MTA in NY and won't get into competitions to see whats its life. I think being competitive in a hobby that you enjoy is a life-changing experience because your mindset about many things will differ from that point on, and you can meet great friends, possibly life friends if you meet the right people, but overall, i think that if someone is a gamer or plays TCG's, like i did, you should definitely go out to see whats the competitive aspect of those things, it will produce like 100x more replay value and give you things to think about in your spare time

 

[The Sauce Boss]

get people to register an account on this site. Thats a good start to get them to go to a tourney.

 

[metalmonstar]

Pierce you should make a poll for how many players would go to Smashfest. Venues can be expensive and tournament organizers can't always take a loss to better the community. If there is enough interest then, maybe organizers should start looking into running more free events. This may sound a little crazy but it might be a good idea to have different activities at such free events. Particularly ones that cater directly to the casual player. This means item play, smashball play, and even free for alls. Maybe order pizza for the players to enjoy during a brief break. This will allow them to socialize and get to know each other. Make friends and be more willing to go to tournaments.


Maybe another thing to look into is good location. Finding venues that are convenient for a lot of people.

 

[-Ran]

God bless your n00bs. There are people that go to tournaments that have no chance of winning, but have a ton of heart. Every month they proudly plop down their entry fee. In order to maintain a healthy scene you need to retain these players. Find out why they are playing, and attempt to make them better. A big brother program would do wonders. In Louisiana, the veterans Smashers tend to take local players under their wings to make them better. Seriously, you need to put as MUCH effort as you can to keep them coming, or your tournaments are going to shrink significantly over the course of a month or two.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I wrote this for a similar question on the Melee boards (edited to be slightly less abrasive).

Back on topic though, I think that what we're seeing is the beginning stages of Smash's natural death. Nothing lasts forever, and while the Brawl vs. Melee debate has hastened along it's demise, this was inevitable. 2007 was going to be a difficult year to top regardless of all the communal nonsense that consumed 2008; I think most people would agree that in comparing 2007 to 2008, it looks like we've hit the other side of the bell curve.

Smash benefited from coming of age in a relative vacuum of fighting games. Sure, there was Tekken and Soul Calibur and Guilty Gear, but none of these games really carried the weight of a Nintendo mascot fighter. But now the 500 lb gorilla named Street Fighter is back. GG has been growing slowly but surely, and there's a palpable sense of excitement for the release of BlazBlue. Even Tatsunoko vs Capcom, a game that will never see a US release, seems to be building a surprisingly healthy following. In 2009, we're going to find that Melee is not only competing against Brawl, but also against the other tournament fighters.

Some people might say "There's no competition, everyone can just play what they want." That's true, and there's nothing that says that you can't play more than one game. What I'm afraid of though is that Smash is going to be forced to start competing for resources. By that, I mean: there are only 52 weekends a year, with several tournament games to split them. There are only so many LAN centers and venues capable of supporting large scale tournaments. The economy looks like it's going to be pretty rough next year, so people will be working more (if they can) and budgeting. There's only so much time in a day.

If there's a regional SF 4 tournament the same weekend as a regional Smash tournament, can we compete with that? Are we going to lose Smashers to the new games? Will people even be willing to pop in a 7 year-old game when there's something brand new and shiny right next to them (we've already seen this phenomenon with Brawl. Imagine what could happen when REAL fighters drop next year)? I think that you can really only be competitive in one game, MAYBE two. Smash is extremely different than other 2-D fighters, so I think that it's a bit of a stretch to ask someone to be competitive in both Smash and a more traditional fighter. And even if people try to be competitive in both, will people have money to attend two tournaments in the same month? Will LAN centers even be available, or will we be calling only to hear, "Sorry, but that date is already reserved"?

I think that what we're in is a holding pattern. That describes me perfectly, as I'm just using Smash at this point as a holdover until BlazBlue is released. I can't speculate as to how many people feel this way, but I would suspect it's not an insignificant amount. Brawl really has lowered the quality of the overall Smash community, and there may be a real exodus of people looking for a more serious and vibrant community. We could gain people, but I think it's far more likely that we will lose people from the Smash community (from both Melee and Brawl, but more Melee players will disappear).

I must say, I'm surprised at how pessimistic this post is, but I think that we need to be realistic about the challenges we're facing going forward. The best we can hope for going into 2009 is to retain players. It's possible that we will attract new people. A friend of mine is going to his first Melee tournament next weekend. But like me, once BlazBlue drops, he's putting his full attention into that. It's going to be extremely difficult to bring in new people in the new competitive landscape next year.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the point is that not only will both Smash games be competing against each other (as running Melee and Brawl in the same day seems to have fallen out of practice), but there will be other competitive fighters and other considerations that are going to affect Smash's ability to grow in the future.

 

[Pierce7d]

Either I'm really dumb, and don't know how to make a poll, or I'm unable to do so, or I would've done so in general Brawl discussion. However, my poll question would have been, "How often do you attend Smash tournaments, with the options being:

A) I've never been to a tourney.
B) I rarely go to tourneys
C) Twice a month
D) More than twice a month.

Also, Praxis wrote an interesting article.
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=7609&page=1

 

[Jam Stunna]

Good read, and what GameClucks wrote in the comments brings me back to my point about competition from other games. Smash players don't want to allow profit to be made off of them. Other gamers don't have that hang-up, and TO's are going to have a hard time convincing people to let them use their venue basically for free when they can make money on other games.

 

[metalmonstar]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206352

JV already did a poll like that.

However the bias is so ridiculous that it really can't be taken seriously. We are on a competitive gaming site of course 80% of the people here go to tournaments or are going to a tournament. I think a realistic goal is to get 40% of the Brawl and Melee owners to go to tournaments. With both games being at about 7 million copies sold, there should be plenty of tournament players.

Also Praxis and gameclucks are talking about why Smash will never have the success of other competitive fighting games. I don't believe they mention anywhere about the game ever dying out. I think that is a bit pessimistic idea, Jam. Yes the community is split. Yes the games are competing with each other when they could/should be working together, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Competitive Smash will just die. The fan base is just to loyal. I mean why else would TO's risk their own money just to break even? Size may decrease, that is a legitimate concern. Which is why this discussion should be taken more seriously.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Well, speaking for myself, the reason I am hesitant about entering tournaments for Smash is my parents.

I am worried that they'll look at me questionably and when I get knocked out in the first round [which would be very likely at my first smash tournament], that they would chuckle at me behind my back.

I didn't have this problem for TKD, because I entered my first tournament when I was eight. Nonetheless, my parents didn't think I would amount to anything in TKD (as much as I tried to convince them otherwise), until I beat a Junior Olympic Team Member two years older than me last year.


So, in summary, the biggest factor holding me back from attending tournaments, is the judgment of my parents.

 

[Pierce7d]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206352

JV already did a poll like that.

However the bias is so ridiculous that it really can't be taken seriously. We are on a competitive gaming site of course 80% of the people here go to tournaments or are going to a tournament. I think a realistic goal is to get 40% of the Brawl and Melee owners to go to tournaments. With both games being at about 7 million copies sold, there should be plenty of tournament players.

Also Praxis and gameclucks are talking about why Smash will never have the success of other competitive fighting games. I don't believe they mention anywhere about the game ever dying out. I think that is a bit pessimistic idea, Jam. Yes the community is split. Yes the games are competing with each other when they could/should be working together, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Competitive Smash will just die. The fan base is just to loyal. I mean why else would TO's risk their own money just to break even? Size may decrease, that is a legitimate concern. Which is why this discussion should be taken more seriously.

Well one thing that does comfort me is that although it's not a major issue on the front page of all of our agendas, it's being noticed, and therefore we will hopefully take it seriously before it becomes a huge problem. Still, ensuring the longevity and Growth of Brawl is very important.

Well, speaking for myself, the reason I am hesitant about entering tournaments for Smash is my parents.

I am worried that they'll look at me questionably and when I get knocked out in the first round [which would be very likely at my first smash tournament], that they would chuckle at me behind my back.

I didn't have this problem for TKD, because I entered my first tournament when I was eight. Nonetheless, my parents didn't think I would amount to anything in TKD (as much as I tried to convince them otherwise), until I beat a Junior Olympic Team Member two years older than me last year.


So, in summary, the biggest factor holding me back from attending tournaments, is the judgment of my parents.

Wow, that's pretty sad. I have confidence in you. You're the one that taught me about the 0 to death on Wolf and Falco. Compete, flourish, and most importantly, prioritize winning BELOW having a good time. Not everyone can win every tourney, but we can all have fun, and that's important too, making sure that everyone has fun.

 

[Pierce7d]

I'm bumping this because I believe it deserves more attention

 

[metalmonstar]

I have run a couple free events and what I am coming to find is that there is a decent number of people who actually would be interested in tournaments. They just don't know about them and aren't willing to look that hard.

It would be helpful if we could come up with ways to find these people and get them in the doors of an actual event. I think maybe over the summer some of the Smash Directors should hold free events.

It may be a good idea to have free side events that feature popular games, like Halo, Guitar Hero, Gran Turismo, and even wii sports.

 

[goodkid]

How many copies has Brawl sold? I'm sure over 1 million. Thats a lot of smasher for you, most just don't know about smashboards/ that there is more than just ****** their friends. Most come to smashboards by accident -_- which I did, or by a friend, but I'm glad I came by accident ^_^. I learned a lot about tournaments, etc... I haven't been to a tournament yet because of parents. I keep messing up when I get the chance to go -_-. I know what you mean about tournaments being too small. If u factor in how many people play Brawl & how many people play competitively I'm sure we account for like 1%. If everyone or 50% of the people that play Brawl went to tournaments, then there should be over 300 @ every tournament.

Region is a factor as well though, we need more tournament host, & running a tournament is extremely difficult w/out a microphone & multiple-rooms & when its not dedicated to smash -_-. I tried this @ my computer club lock-in, but if I do it again, I'll know better.

 

[metalmonstar]

How many copies has Brawl sold? I'm sure over 1 million. Thats a lot of smasher for you, most just don't know about smashboards/ that there is more than just ****** their friends. Most come to smashboards by accident -_- which I did, or by a friend, but I'm glad I came by accident ^_^. I learned a lot about tournaments, etc... I haven't been to a tournament yet because of parents. I keep messing up when I get the chance to go -_-. I know what you mean about tournaments being too small. If u factor in how many people play Brawl & how many people play competitively I'm sure we account for like 1%. If everyone or 50% of the people that play Brawl went to tournaments, then there should be over 300 @ every tournament.

Region is a factor as well though, we need more tournament host, & running a tournament is extremely difficult w/out a microphone & multiple-rooms & when its not dedicated to smash -_-. I tried this @ my computer club lock-in, but if I do it again, I'll know better.

Brawl has certainly sold over a million. You want to know how well the game has done? It has sold almost 5 million in just the US alone. So there is a huge untapped market. It really comes down to finding who has the game. Now you have to realize there are many that can't compete because of parents and too young. Also there are those that just aren't interested. However the Smash community makes up probably less than .1% of the people who own Brawl. This is sad when other games have better ratios. I think television advertisement could do wonders for the brawl community but that is really expensive.

For the most part TO's need to spend some time on the local community and try to build them up. We need to get them in the door and then make them feel welcome. We need to cover the concerns they may have. The larger smash get the more opportunities will come.

 

[Stev]

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but one of the issues with brawl's competitiveness is its speed of play, lack of combos, etc. Now I dont' want to start a whole melee vs brawl discussion, but my point it this: The "lack of competitiveness" has been what kept a lot of competitive melee players from taking on brawl. There are many melee only dedicated people, and I think that is one of the major issues with the competitive scene today. However, this is a huge untapped resource out there because wii is the newer console, and brawl is the newer game. In fact, most people who play neither would rather play brawl because they think its "better."

The biggest dilemma i see here when it comes to brawl vs melee competitive scene is this: It becomes very difficult for melee to adapt new players because GC is an older system and the graphics aren't as flashy. So it seems that their most reliable way of improving their scene (imo) is to revert people back from brawl. For brawl, its just a matter of getting new people to the game to come and play competitively. Thus, the two scenes find it difficult to work together, and end up working against each other.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

So to start........ we all should get one new person to go to the next tourny with us :D double right there
and advertising at schools, churches, and rec cente's seem like good ideas

now to the serious stuff...

People can say that this or that needs to be done... but the fact is, we can't do a ton until the comunity unites way further then its current state. people must ask themselves why do they feel the need to state wich game is better, if i think brawl is better let me be a ignorant noob and enjoy the game, if i think melee is better let me be a hardcore stubborn conservative. For some reason or another (mainly melee vets) people feel the need to bat one another down when they aspire to achieve a certain goal if there goal does not coincide with there own. The most stated phrase i saw before brawl even had a fair chance was, "People are just using this game as a way to make a name for themselves because it takes no skill." Come on now, for one... the game was never even given a fair chance, for two... people are basically comparing AND1 to the NBA... AND1 is faster, has higher scores, and more difficult moves to pull off... but for some reason we all unanimously agree that the NBA is the better version of the game. The fact of the matter is that brawl and melee both take skill... one is speed chess and the other is chess, and if brawl was skill less then its very interesting that big names from melee are still fairly dominant in brawl... now why did i write this entire post... so that hopefully people will ask themselves why do they truly care which game is better... we are all smashers and need to support one another before its too late... because after it fails, we will all be smashless and blaming brawl or melee when we should have been blaming ourselves for not finding a solution to the problem that we have been dealing with for almost a year now. Now why is a solution to this segregation amongst gamers vital to increasing tourny size? how would you like start playing a game competitively just to have others bat you down due to your preference of a game? We must first fix the problem that currently resides in our community before we can hope to attract others. we are kinda like the USA 60 years ago.. they were segregated and needed to unite, in hindsight... uniting was obviously the better decision...

 

[Jam Stunna]

I get what you're saying Pyronic_Star, and I'm really not trying to start a fight, but people have to understand that Melee and Brawl are so different that it really is a one or the other world.

I've heard many people say that Brawl and Melee are so different that you can like both. But what most people fail to realize is that those differences are usually irreconcilable; the qualities that make Melee and Brawl different are diametrically opposed, and it's difficult for any one person to support both games.

 

[Stev]

I get what you're saying Pyronic_Star, and I'm really not trying to start a fight, but people have to understand that Melee and Brawl are so different that it really is a one or the other world.

I've heard many people say that Brawl and Melee are so different that you can like both. But what most people fail to realize is that those differences are usually irreconcilable; the qualities that make Melee and Brawl different are diametrically opposed, and it's difficult for any one person to support both games.

I totally agree, and I think there's a bigger issue that's at stake. Most smashers realize that only one of the games can make it big. You will most likely never see both games in MLG or anything on that scale. So really, both sides end up treating each other as rivals. But i think the melee stubbornness comes down to this: Because Brawl is newer and more flashy, they are much more likely to grow than melee. Everyone wants to play the "new version," and melee never had the hype and massive sales in such a short period of time. It's coming to the point where it's like, "remember the good ol days?" What they really wanted was a newer version of what they had. maybe some new characters, or new levels, but leave everything else the same, because it worked so well before. They didn't like the change, and thought it made it less competitive, much slower, and (in their opinions) less awesome.

 

[fkacyan]

Dan, you're only thirteen days younger than I am. xD

Excellent read, by the way.

The reason I (And all of the people from my town) got into the tourney scene was because of Orion, who found crap like AiB and whatnot for tourney org and reports. He got the rest of us into going, and here we are. As for why we continue going...

I know that the likelihood of making money is slim to none. The community, however, is awesome, and honestly that community is what keeps Smash as one of the only two games I play on a regular basis.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

i understand that some dislike the changes that were made to brawl, but its more the fact that it feels like melee is pulling brawl down. i hate to say this... but lets be honest... melee is a dying game, the fact is that due to brawl being newer melee is now the old thing and its dying... it had its chance on MLG and EVO and despite many people trying to revive the game, brawl has more tourny goers then melee. Brawl has not had its shot and its like melee [players] don't want it to. I'm not sure if its there last cry or some sort or what, but melee doesn't just have a lack of support for brawl, but it actually shuns the game itself... not supporting is one thing, but pulling down/holding back is another.. melee should just take a neutral point instead of a negative... because at least with neutral standpoints, the game can die by itself if that is indeed the future outcome, but with the current negative standpoint... both games will die and i would much rather lose one game opposed to two

something i never answered
I got started in the toruny scene because of god-is-my-rock. i met him and learned about all these AT's and how much deeper the game was then i had previously thought. I went to one tourny for melee and got *****.... by G-reg possibly, i thought about going to more but i had a lack of transportation and i was also like 6 years behind the game so when brawl came out i decided now would be a good time to truely become competitive since the 6 year advantage that everyone else had was no longer around. I continue going to tournies because i improve and i feel that as long as M2K isn't there, i have a shot at winning lolz

 

[metalmonstar]

Inviting one person to a tournament seems like a good way to keep people involved in the scene. Especially considering several of you actually got your start from invites.

I think Pyronic may be on to something. We seriously need to improve the community as well. Even if we play different games we should still have a sense of unity since we are all smash players. It would be great to cut down on the amount of trolling that certain Brawl and Melee players do. What they are doing is really just as bad as console fanboyism. If we work together both scenes can flourish. I am one to believe that both games can coexist. I also believe that Melee tournaments should hold Brawl side events and Brawl should hold Melee side events. We need to support each other. So yes the die hards are a bit of an untapped market, but I think they are more of a longshot than getting new players.


Melee and Brawl are different games, but I see no reason why people can't play both.

 

[Stev]

i hate to say this... but lets be honest... melee is a dying game, the fact is that due to brawl being newer melee is now the old thing and its dying...

I disagree actually. Maybe its just my impression, but I've been getting the feeling that melee is starting to get a second wind, and many have started to convert back (hell, even PC came back). If you look at how many people have already registered at Genesis, melee isn't that far behind. What brawl tournies are getting the hype of M2K vs Mango? Melee doesn't have to die just because Brawl is newer. Counterstrike 1.6 has WAY more people playing than Counterstrike Source and CZ combined. In fact, 1.6 is competitive on an international scale, the other two aren't, and 1.6 came out even before melee. It seems to me that the reason a lot of people end up playing brawl is because they figure Melee is over with. and won't get big anymore. The only way this will happen is if the players allow it to happen. Now if you like Brawl better, then play brawl, but the point I'm saying, is that Melee is NOT dead, so don't pick your game because that's what you think.

Melee and Brawl are different games, but I see no reason why people can't play both.

Only M2K can play both competitively at a top level. Most people want to focus on 1 game. I personally find it difficult to switch between them and find success in both. A lot of people have already been successful in melee and like it better, so they're staying. Some people found more success in brawl, so they're staying. Why go from being one of the best to being a scrub? Most people don't want to. Sure you can play both at a friendly level, but that's not really what this discussion is about.