Inactivity

[Overswarm]

A blacklist won't work.

For one, inactivity is a legitimate scum strategy. If the best strategy is to post as little as possible and they can get modkilled if they don't post by 48 hours, the best strategy is to post in hour 47. It doesn't fix anything.

If you blacklist people for that, you're just being mean. You should just change the rule. Which you can't really.

What's more, if you made a blacklist and got rid of KevinM, who has been routinely inactive in nearly all of his games for as long as I can remember, you would still get people that would allow him in their games. What's more, you'd have the same "crew" of people saying that they want him in the game so they'd "/out" due to the ban. It wouldn't solve anything because people don't care as much about inactivity as you think.

What's more, activity isn't necessarily related to success. Some people want certain players to post LESS, not MORE.

The only thing that is going to help is consistent punishment by the mods that doesn't hurt the opposite alignment. Town inactive and they get modkilled and it ends the day? Sucks for scum, because the inactive is gone and town didn't have to do anything to get it. It'd help if there was a "last post" option for a thread that wasn't as convoluted as what SWF currently has, but that's about it.


On top of all this... inactivity is real and not just because of lack of interest. This is one of the busiest weeks ever for me and I couldn't even do a votecount at home. I'd be pissed if I was put on a blacklist because i have more important things going on for a week.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Everything os said. All of it. Hell, there are times I'll lurk as town because I see a reason to do it. It's not often but such a time exists.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Haven't read any of this because goddamn its long, but I really do thing having a significantly shorter night phase (like 24 hours cap) would keep players in the game and active. If you're a VT, night phase is just ... dead time. You don't do mafia. You don't think about it, since there's nothing new to think about.

I've thought about using a mechanic where I would have players PM me their night action choice at the start of the day, and have the option to update that whenever they'd like during the day. That way if night rolls around early from a quickhammer or whatever, they at least have some direction to their plans instead of the mod randomly selecting a target. This goes hand in hand with the short night phase too, you just keep it updated like a private vote count and at the end of the 24 hours you plug the results into NAR.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Overswarm]

Haven't read any of this because goddamn its long, but I really do thing having a significantly shorter night phase (like 24 hours cap) would keep players in the game and active. If you're a VT, night phase is just ... dead time. You don't do mafia. You don't think about it, since there's nothing new to think about.

I've thought about using a mechanic where I would have players PM me their night action choice at the start of the day, and have the option to update that whenever they'd like during the day. That way if night rolls around early from a quickhammer or whatever, they at least have some direction to their plans instead of the mod randomly selecting a target. This goes hand in hand with the short night phase too, you just keep it updated like a private vote count and at the end of the 24 hours you plug the results into NAR.

Just my 2 cents.

Short night phases don't work. Your "early night actions" might help, but I've tried early night actions and everyone just... doesn't do it.

You gotta remember that Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are all "dead" days for some players and super active days for others. Stuff like that destroys the things like 24 hour phases.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Then punish the players who don't. They don't take a night action that night.

Its a lesson you only learn once in a game.

 

[BarDulL]

A good example of inactivity benefiting scum alignment can be seen in Tekken mafia; Washed played a rather inactive role in LyLo, allowing him to take less stances and keep Kary in the spotlight as the final lynch fodder for scum to win the game, so I can definitely agree it helps scum. I've seen this help Town as well, specifically in Adventure Time when T-block lurked a bit after claiming an "invisible voting role" which, while the role itself was scummy at the time, players actually became more receptive towards T-block when more content was being put out by other players. Granted, T-block eventually ended up getting lynched anyway, but it was like a day or two later IIRC.

 

[T-block]

that's a weird example to bring up

i was lurking basically the whole game... not just after my claim. never did get into that game, since i was replacing in fairly late iirc

 

[BarDulL]

I remember a very big window of time when you began to lurk right after your claim, so that's how I read into it. People actually did let you off the hook because of it and a lot of the momentum against your slot died down.

I imagine that lurking here and there as PR isn't a terrible idea either if it reserves you some kill-free nights (unless scum reads you as lurking PR...)

 

[Overswarm]

Then punish the players who don't. They don't take a night action that night.

Its a lesson you only learn once in a game.

What evidence do you have for this? KevinM didn't send a Night action once an entire game and he rolled Batman, a jack of all trades. He didn't suddenly "learn his lesson".

You've gotta remember that this isn't people being forgetful, it's them being busy. They have things they consider more important than mafia.


What's more, the queue doesn't allow for it. If you have to be draconian at times you go for it, but you can't have it as your go-to solution. In "The Wall" I could have modkilled like half the game for not sending in Wall writings. This would have basically destroyed the game. Absolutely no one would have "learned" anything.

If the queue was instant, sure, maybe. But how many mods do you know are willing to say "Nope, you were late" and have major changes to the game be from their doing, then wait half a year to host another game?

 

[Rockin]

A blacklist won't work.

For one, inactivity is a legitimate scum strategy. If the best strategy is to post as little as possible and they can get modkilled if they don't post by 48 hours, the best strategy is to post in hour 47. It doesn't fix anything.

If you blacklist people for that, you're just being mean. You should just change the rule. Which you can't really.

What's more, if you made a blacklist and got rid of KevinM, who has been routinely inactive in nearly all of his games for as long as I can remember, you would still get people that would allow him in their games. What's more, you'd have the same "crew" of people saying that they want him in the game so they'd "/out" due to the ban. It wouldn't solve anything because people don't care as much about inactivity as you think.

What's more, activity isn't necessarily related to success. Some people want certain players to post LESS, not MORE.

The only thing that is going to help is consistent punishment by the mods that doesn't hurt the opposite alignment. Town inactive and they get modkilled and it ends the day? Sucks for scum, because the inactive is gone and town didn't have to do anything to get it. It'd help if there was a "last post" option for a thread that wasn't as convoluted as what SWF currently has, but that's about it.


On top of all this... inactivity is real and not just because of lack of interest. This is one of the busiest weeks ever for me and I couldn't even do a votecount at home. I'd be pissed if I was put on a blacklist because i have more important things going on for a week.

Lurking to get out of pressure/moments where you don't need to post is fine, but constant inactivity/lurking really ruins a game. I'll take in the fact that it's a legit scum strategy, but 5+ times of being prodded due to lurking/inactive posting should cause a modkill/replacement at some point (especially done in a row).

 

[Overswarm]

Lurking to get out of pressure/moments where you don't need to post is fine, but constant inactivity/lurking really ruins a game. I'll take in the fact that it's a legit scum strategy, but 5+ times of being prodded due to lurking/inactive posting should cause a modkill/replacement at some point (especially done in a row).

Oh, definitely. But it's not done just by scum.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Solving inactivity

Don't commit to games if you're not going to have enough time or you're not going to give them attention. Can you manage to read and make a post every Day for the next 1-3 months? That's what you should ask yourself before joining a game.

If something unforeseen comes up, do the responsible thing and inform the thread of limited activity. Say exactly which dates or times you'll be free for and commit to that decision, or make a judgment call and ask to replace out. Don't fencesit halfway between the two, that's irresponsible.

Lynch inactives who aren't doing the above, because as OS points out, it's a viable and widely used scum strategy. Call people out on corner coasting; no one signs up for a mafia game saying, "I'm going to enjoy being auxiliary this entire game." So, don't let them get away with going against that original pre-role protown intent.


As a mod, strictly enforce whatever ruleset you're using for your game, in all matters including activity. Common sense.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

What evidence do you have for this? KevinM didn't send a Night action once an entire game and he rolled Batman, a jack of all trades. He didn't suddenly "learn his lesson".

You've gotta remember that this isn't people being forgetful, it's them being busy. They have things they consider more important than mafia.


What's more, the queue doesn't allow for it. If you have to be draconian at times you go for it, but you can't have it as your go-to solution. In "The Wall" I could have modkilled like half the game for not sending in Wall writings. This would have basically destroyed the game. Absolutely no one would have "learned" anything.

If the queue was instant, sure, maybe. But how many mods do you know are willing to say "Nope, you were late" and have major changes to the game be from their doing, then wait half a year to host another game?

When they have a full day phase +24 hours, there's no excuse to miss a night action. If you're v/la, THAT's the only time where you'd have to cut them some slack and just randomize it.

'oh man but what about quicklynches'

Quicklynches just become that much scummier. Now players would not only have to justify ending the day and cutting off discussion, but also potentially robbing players of a chance to use their night actions.

Like I'm really not sure why you're so opposed to this idea other than you just like to argue.

 

[T-block]

Good points OS/WL/Nabe.

Seems like it's a problem we need to fix from the player side rather than the mod side.

 

[Overswarm]

When they have a full day phase +24 hours, there's no excuse to miss a night action. If you're v/la, THAT's the only time where you'd have to cut them some slack and just randomize it.

'oh man but what about quicklynches'

Quicklynches just become that much scummier. Now players would not only have to justify ending the day and cutting off discussion, but also potentially robbing players of a chance to use their night actions.

Like I'm really not sure why you're so opposed to this idea other than you just like to argue.

I don't think you really get it. Some people literally don't have time to sit at a computer over a 24 hour time span and mess with mafia. Hell, we're on smashboards. That used to happen to me every Friday/Saturday.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

You're not getting 24 hours. You're getting the day phase PLUS the 24 hours as a grace period of time to adjust your action as well as give people a bit of down time.

 

[X1-12]

Seems like it's a problem we need to fix from the player side rather than the mod side.

Definitely this. And its entirely the responsibility of the inactives, I see lots of people saying we should push inactives to stop them doing it but it just doesn't work. The amount of games I've played where we've had 3/4 players completely inactive just prod-dodging for the whole of D1. Even if we swing a lynch on them its completely useless, the next Day will just start over with less town players and the inactives still probably won't give a ****

Don't commit to games if you're not going to have enough time or you're not going to give them attention. Can you manage to read and make a post every Day for the next 1-3 months? That's what you should ask yourself before joining a game.

This as well. You have to be really sure, because joining a game and being half-***** about it will only snowball into a bigger problem. If you have no investment in the game you'll become more inactive lowering your interest even more. Only join if you really can commit to it

 

[Circus]

Seems like it's a problem we need to fix from the player side rather than the mod side.

Not really. That's like saying theft is a problem that needs to be fixed from the thief side rather than the law enforcement side. Yes, it's the player's fault that they are inactive while playing a game in which availability and participation are important, not the mod's, but we can't rely on people to police themselves. Ideally, everyone would heed Nabe's #52 and only play games they can actually, you know...play. But wishing and hoping isn't a solution to the problem, so mods need to do their job.

And beyond what mods already do during games in order to crack down on this, as I was saying before, I think preemptive modding is one of the better underused strategies. For one example out of many I could give, due to the way certain people handle hydras, I personally plan on blocking certain people from using hydras in my future games, if not blocking all hydras in general. Hydras are not inherently bad, which is why I could see myself allowing some, but the way most people on this site treat them while they're in them is ****ing abysmal, and it's hell for a mod to deal with. Before any hydra joins a mafia game (or, at least, one of my games), the players of that hydra should have to meet a certain list of requirements. This list should include but is not limited to:

a) Having a hydra account that actually exists. You don't get added to the roster until the account is made and proves so by /inning the game itself.
b) Both heads of the hydra speak to the mod about why they're hydra-ing. Because the two heads respect each other's play styles and would like to try working together? Fine. Because the two heads think very differently and are looking to be challenged in this game? Sounds fun! Because one or both heads are really busy in other games/life and need the extra head to pick up the slack? No. **** no. If you don't have the time or energy to take on a game alone, you don't have the time to take it on as a hydra.
c) The hydra in question (or one of the heads) doesn't have a history of ****ing up hydras (constantly posting off account, for example).

I got on a bit of tangent there, but the point is that mods need to communicate with the potential player list more before the game actually starts in order to minimize complications arising during the game proper.

You're not getting 24 hours. You're getting the day phase PLUS the 24 hours as a grace period of time to adjust your action as well as give people a bit of down time.

I would argue that the actual Night phase (what you refer to here as a 24-hour grace period), is the most important time for decision-making. The way a Day ends is often a huge influence on the way a PR decides to use his or her Night action. They need time to be able to read it (which they may not get to do until several hours after it's posted), weigh all of their options, and then be able to arrive at an informed choice. 24 hours is a very brief window for that. I think the idea of having PRs send the backup choice to the mod during the Day phase in case they can't get anything done during the actual Night phase is kind of interesting, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to shorten the Night phase. It could work in conjunction with the normal Night phase, but not in place of it. The Night phase is important; it's too long for VTs for a reason. Vanillas should get bored during that phase. The PRs have big decisions to make, and they need time after seeing a flip to make them.

 

[Overswarm]

You're not getting 24 hours. You're getting the day phase PLUS the 24 hours as a grace period of time to adjust your action as well as give people a bit of down time.

The day phase can be as long as 30 seconds. The point is that there are times when people literally cannot contribute. Punishing them for this does nothing. Why would you punish plotting scum by giving them a short night phase? Oh, day ends at 4 p.m. and we have 24 hours to send in night actions, hope no one is going out tonight

It doesn't increase activity or speed or anything of the sort. Having a shorter night phase doesn't give any more time because the Day phase just starts up again. It doesn't help anyone, it's just annoying to players.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Playing mafia is annoying to mafia players? People don't NEED that long to make decisions, especially when they know up front that the night will be brief. If they can't play on friday, they send in an action thursday. If the day ends early, its on the town for rushing the day and preventing them from sending one in.

I'm really not getting how you could think someone couldn't send 1 PM over the course of a week+

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i have a solution

everyone start telling your entire scumteams to post only every 47 hours

win

keep doing this to establish it as the universal scumplay on the site so swftown is forced to lynch inactives

 

[#HBC | marshy]

having your team all claim vla works too. just trying to be open minded here

 

[X1-12]

^marshy knows

@Glyph do you think mafia should be expected to know who to NK before they know who has been lynched?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

having your team all claim vla works too. just trying to be open minded here

i have a solution

everyone start telling your entire scumteams to post only every 47 hours

win

keep doing this to establish it as the universal scumplay on the site so swftown is forced to lynch inactives

Then when that meta is established make sure your scum-team is the top posters in every game and regardless of content people will think your efforts are town while you lynch inactive swftown

genius

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

@X1: Of course not, but by the time a lynch has gained enough momentum to be pushed through you'll have a pretty good idea of who you're looking at.

Do other people not think about who to NK during the day phase? I honestly don't know, if other people wait until after the lynch and then make a decision then there's no point to what I've been saying.

 

[X1-12]

Yeah I think most people do but very often last minute swings and deadline shenanigans change the game so drastically that scum have to rethink

 

[Evil Eye]

Inactivity is a legitimate part of the game tbh, this whole argument is naive idealistic dumbness

It's a strategy some scum like to use and use well, and it can only be done to such an extreme as the town allows. It's the job of the town to force people to talk and put things on the record, not the game mechanics. If someone is outright avoiding the game it is your job to catch that. If someone is simply on the lazy and laid back end of things, it is your job to deduce that. You're just making the game overly fascist and unfun if you want to start cramming a new playstyle down the throat of players like Kev or marshy, players I enjoyed playing with a great deal back in the day. Hell look at Glyph; how often is he the pinnacle of the Laze? And yet he always gets hooked on the game somewheres around D2-3 and steps way up, if not sooner, but his D1 play would usually get him modkilled.

Honestly, I found deducing it kind of fun. As long as the entire roster isn't just prod dodging, the variety of playstyles is a major part of the game. I think back to Bioware, a game that had a fair amount of kinda inactive players. I ended up making two very crucial reads on inactives that I can recall; Sir Bedevere, who was scum and replaced out on D2 or so and that I shot as vig. Then Nix, who was the favorite lynch target in lylo, but I went through the game like three times and found that his motivations/actions/behavior lined up and he didn't fit the scumteam jigsaw. Nix spent like a third of the game in the hospital and was inactive to begin with.

Seriously, if you're doing your job, it is completely possible to read players on the lower end of the inactive spectrum. Hell, even if you're not forcing them to engage somehow (and you should be), a good paper trail is all it takes. I don't think I asked Bed or Nix a direct question in the entirety of Bioware and that worked out fine. Like I said, as long as someone isn't just taking up space blatantly prod dodging, I think it's fine. There's a huge, huge difference between someone on the coasty side of things and someone that is taking up a slot while flat out not playing the game.

 

[Evil Eye]

Not to mention there are town reasons to lurk sometimes

maybe two people you think are SvT start going at it and gobble up the thread and you just want to observe it to see where you're at

maybe you're trying to hide a power role and avoid giving off any kind of tells (this can work very well as pokerface kinda play if done right)

there are myriad possibilities depending on the situation tbh

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Yeah I get what you're saying EE, but what about players that are playing a way that it's really hard to decipher being genuine inactivity and scum inactivity. I am reminded of situations where players felt that lynching inactives was more priority and even after such inactive was given chase, he didn't respond in time and got himself lynched. Some things don't just delve into the fun of the game, and it's not fun where players are forced to lynch inactives simply because their ethic isn't there.

 

[Kataefi]

Soup any chance you can give examples?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

A couple, actually.

LoM if you want somewhat of a legitimate example, D1 we lynched SMoth purely for inactivity reasons and then quicklynched Rake for the same ideals, both players were fairly active at the time in other games i'd believe (SMoth can somewhat of an exception) and Rake literally never even responded to his quicklynch. I believe there is more examples but it's been more recent.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Yeah I get what you're saying EE, but what about players that are playing a way that it's really hard to decipher being genuine inactivity and scum inactivity. I am reminded of situations where players felt that lynching inactives was more priority and even after such inactive was given chase, he didn't respond in time and got himself lynched. Some things don't just delve into the fun of the game, and it's not fun where players are forced to lynch inactives simply because their ethic isn't there.

Still, if players are posting, at least to an extent, WITH ENOUGH EFFORT, you should be able to pin them as town or scum. They just have a smaller scope of posts. If those posts aren't good at all or they're just prod-dodging the entire game, they're obvious scum. If they're trying in their limited bursts of posts, then they might just be town. Read between the lines, Soup. You're a big boy, you don't have to ****can a strategy just because it hampers the rest of the players.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

A couple, actually.

LoM if you want somewhat of a legitimate example, D1 we lynched SMoth purely for inactivity reasons and then quicklynched Rake for the same ideals, both players were fairly active at the time in other games i'd believe (SMoth can somewhat of an exception) and Rake literally never even responded to his quicklynch. I believe there is more examples but it's been more recent.

this is kind of a poor example. i thought we did that **** largely for fun plus this never happens cuz town usually lacks the balls to lynch someone in less than 24 hours unfortunately

 

[Orboknown]

Deadpool marshy. 7 hour ql or something?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

this is kind of a poor example. i thought we did that **** largely for fun plus this never happens cuz town usually lacks the balls to lynch someone in less than 24 hours unfortunately

yeah i guess that game was hella fun i agree

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Seriously, if you're doing your job, it is completely possible to read players on the lower end of the inactive spectrum. Hell, even if you're not forcing them to engage somehow (and you should be), a good paper trail is all it takes. I don't think I asked Bed or Nix a direct question in the entirety of Bioware and that worked out fine. Like I said, as long as someone isn't just taking up space blatantly prod dodging, I think it's fine. There's a huge, huge difference between someone on the coasty side of things and someone that is taking up a slot while flat out not playing the game.

Why does EE always hit the nail on the head?

Yeah I get what you're saying EE, but what about players that are playing a way that it's really hard to decipher being genuine inactivity and scum inactivity. I am reminded of situations where players felt that lynching inactives was more priority and even after such inactive was given chase, he didn't respond in time and got himself lynched. Some things don't just delve into the fun of the game, and it's not fun where players are forced to lynch inactives simply because their ethic isn't there.

Give it time and you will usually be able to read them IMO.

Still, if players are posting, at least to an extent, WITH ENOUGH EFFORT, you should be able to pin them as town or scum. They just have a smaller scope of posts. If those posts aren't good at all or they're just prod-dodging the entire game, they're obvious scum. If they're trying in their limited bursts of posts, then they might just be town. Read between the lines, Soup. You're a big boy, you don't have to ****can a strategy just because it hampers the rest of the players.

This I basically endorse; but there are going to be times when a slot is just not there, and it'll be essentially impossible to read them. I feel it's legit for a mod to intervene in cases like that; when it's not just coasting, it's flat-out not playing.

/opinions

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

What about, ya know, keeping a log of that ****, and if it's consistent with some people you just make a temporary ban from mafia games, ya know?

Idiots...

 

[Overswarm]

If I got a role like cop and I could just make one post a day and get away with it, I would. I don't need to "play the game" if I have a night action that's more important.

 

[Evil Eye]

hahahaha

typical overswarm

 

[Evil Eye]

(he's right though that's a perfect example of legit lurking, I just thought it was kind of funny)