Improving game-play around L-canceling

[Fortress]

@ Fortress I don't think shffling gets much easier with the removal of L-canceling. It's still a tricky tech to learn.

Maybe it's because I'm a lab freak, but, once I learned it, it was just a matter of breaking it down to a system of what to do and when. Jump, Attack, Fast Fall, L-Cancel, which is easy enough, no matter how unnecessary the technique (L-Cancelling) might be.

 

[Paquito]

There are plenty of techniques worth practicing. One technique being gone removes itself, and the SHFFL (or at least a portion of it).

What do you think of automatically applying l-cancel when fast fall is in effect?

That makes the tech EVEN MORE ANNOYING to do

How? You've just changed SHFFL to SHFF, and are adding a requirement to trigger a last second fast fall if you had been normal falling down.

and it also nerfs multihit moves for no reason.

How?

Also, it will still always be the right move on almost every single aerial in the game, with only slight exception.

Sure, but we're removing an arbitrary button press, so that's a net-gain.

 

[Foo]

What do you think of automatically applying l-cancel when fast fall is in effect?




How? You've just changed SHFFL to SHFF, and are adding a requirement to trigger a last second fast fall if you had been normal falling down?



How?



Sure, but we're removing an arbitrary button press, so that's a net-gain.

Whoops, I misread the post, I thought you said l canceling would only be applied if a fast fall was in effect. I guess I'm in support of your change, but I'd rather it would be removed altogether.

 

[Fortress]

Whoops, I misread the post, I thought you said l canceling would only be applied if a fast fall was in effect. I guess I'm in support of your change, but I'd rather it would be removed altogether.

He did say that, in this post.

What if l-canceling is automatically applied only if a fast-fall is in effect?

I don't understand why 'solutions' for such a fundamentally flawed 'technique' are even being discussed. Its outright removal would be the best thing for it. I can't find a reason why normal falling speed aerials shouldn't be cancelled at their L-Cancelled rates as well in this suggestion.

 

[MagnesD3]

There needs to be some advantage to not L cancelling if its going to stay imo.

 

[Foo]

There needs to be some advantage to not L cancelling if its going to stay imo.

I agree completely. However, somebody has to think or a way to do that isn't utter garbage and THEN refine it until it's actually pretty good. I don't think it can be done, but I'm more than open to hearing a good suggestion.

 

[Altanic]

The opposite of that happens. As a matter-of-fact, what happens when characters land at L-Cancelled rates by default is what is already happening in competitive-level play. Nothing of value is lost.

You mustn't have read the second sentence of my reply.

standardized landing lag does nothing to take away from the combos of this game.

If we are talking about l-cancelled endlag rates, then yes you are correct.

You getting punished for missing an L-Cancel has nothing to do with your opponent's level of skill, which is part of the reason that it is such a ****ty mechanic. You should be punished when you choose an option that is not the optimal option for the situation you are in.

Okay, that is a fair point. I agree with that, since it mostly just punish based on a read.

Performing them does not, but the system of a 'combination' remains exactly the same; attacking your opponent with a string of successive attacks before they are out of hitstun. Different topic, but the point is that standardized landing lag does nothing to take away from the combos of this game.

Sorry, I see what you meant now. I was thinking that Street Fighter seems to be more ground based. The standardized lag thing was a misunderstanding that I also cleared up in the first paragraph of my reply. "I saw someone earlier mention making the endlag normal, like how it already is if you don't l-cancel. I think that if that happens, the window for followups is now smaller because more time is spent recovering. Characters with higher endlag now have more limited options."

You don't remove an option of punishment by making L-Cancelled rates standard.

If you can no longer punish somebody for missing an l-cancel you are removing an option of punishment. Yes, it is still your fault for missing the l-cancel, but now the momentum can be shifted and gives your opponent opportunities to capitalize.

I've spent a couple minutes thinking about how if everyone lands with l-cancelled rates than the momentum can only be shifted by you making an unwise choice in approach or something.. Which seems logical and makes a lot of sense. I think I'm beginning to understand more clearly why people are against L-cancelling.

Since we mentioned Street Fighter earlier, what about this: in Street Fighter characters can cancel their aerial moves immediately into their grounded attacks when landing, kind of like how turbo mode is in PM. What if something like that was implemented into the game? Just an idea.

 

[Paquito]

Whoops, I misread the post, I thought you said l canceling would only be applied if a fast fall was in effect. I guess I'm in support of your change, but I'd rather it would be removed altogether.

Yes, it'd only be applied during fast falls.

I don't understand why 'solutions' for such a fundamentally flawed 'technique' are even being discussed. Its outright removal would be the best thing for it. I can't find a reason why normal falling speed aerials shouldn't be cancelled at their L-Cancelled rates as well in this suggestion.

Probably because you're not really engaging in the discussion so much as you're reacting to it. I highlighted three concerns my fast-fall suggestion addressed. What were they?

 

[smashbro29]

You're confusing "other fighters have done a good job with this" with "other fighters have standardized extremely quick landing animations".

The fighters that have standardized extremely quick animations don't have good landing animations. Which is fine, because they purely target the fighting game community demographic. Smash Brother's is designed for a larger group than that.

I don't know man, MvC3 and SFIV animate pretty damn well.

Do j.HK close to the ground with Ryu or Ken, it's perfect. Near instant and smooth as butter.

 

[Stalled]

PM3.5 displays l cancel success rate post game. Most of the numbers I saw from the vgbc 3.5 launch tourney were low to mid 90's, and those were the md/va top players. So no, pros don't have 100% success rate with L cancelling. I also feel as though how L canceling plays into combos hasn't been talk. A missed l cancel can end a combo early, and removing L canceling would make combos significantly easier/more consistent mostly at lower levels but to some effect across the board.

Also stop comparing smash to traditional FG's, the two have superficial similarities at best and design elements from one are not directly comparable or applicable to those of the other.

 

[MagnesD3]

I just hope the PMBR has thought or will think about this because from a completely unbiased standpoint l canceling does seem like pointless mechanic. Coming from someone who enjoys doing it.

 

[HalcyonDays]

It doesn't separate the good from the greats, it separates the bads from the people who actually put time into the game. Speaking as a good, but far far far from great tournament player, L-Canceling is something I only miss occasionally and it has no correlation to how nervous I am. I also almost never see other good players missing L-Cancels.

You don't have to look at top level play, just standard tournament play, to see that L-Canceling is done every time.

I'm afraid we must disagree here. I believe that my previous point still stands, and that L-cancelling still presents the mental challenge to players of being able to keep their cool under stressful situations that will separate moderately good players from top professionals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk01Y9ODqOs

Notice how Sethlon early into the game has claimed a strong early lead and dominance over his opponent, not just through gameplay strategy but also in causing mental stress to his opponent. It's even readily apparent from the calm expression on Sethlon's face vs the expressions on his opponents face that show he's already lost the battle, not only from the gameplay perspective, but also from the mental perspective.

For the most part, this is because of better gameplay decisions from Sethlon, and it is true L-cancelling is done somewhat consistently, however even at this level of tournament play, there are already instances which support what I had claimed earlier.

Notice at 1:39 into the video, Sethlon's opponent connects with a dair, but fails to L-cancel properly. Sethlon is then able to utilize his opponent's landing lag and knock his opponent off-stage, which is not the ideal place to be as his opponent's options are reduced drastically. At this point, the mental dominance Sethlon has placed onto his opponent grows more and more, and they begin to make more input errors as they lose their cool.

This happens again at 2:37 where Evan misses the L-cancel, and Sethlon is able to capitalize on his landing lag and hit him. Granted, the punish was a dash attack, which was probably not the best choice of punish, but what if it had been a wavedash or crouch-cancel to f-smash or down-smash? It would surely have been a kill at that percentage, showing that even at tournament level play, failure to keep control of anxiety can cause input-errors such as failed L-cancels, which top professionals can capitalize on, separating the good players from the greats.

Now moving on from the mental aspects of L-cancelling, if we're discussing strategic value around L-cancelling, I believe this has been discussed here before, but I feel these are valid points and should be further reviewed.

It's true that it is always better to L-cancel than not to L-cancel, however in instances where you L-cancel on your opponent's shield, these can offer a certain strategic kind of challenge to both attacker and defender.

From the defender's perspective, it is recommended that you somehow find a way to disrupt your opponent's rhythm through making him miss his L-cancel, and then punishing his landing lag. To achieve this, the defender can use light-shielding or shield-tilt techniques, which can create discrepancies in when the attacker needs to press L to L-cancel properly. According to what I've heard, this is also used for Ice Climber players, who have a unique mechanique called "Double-Shielding" that allows one to light-shield and the other to hard-shield, and has been used to disrupt their opponent's normal L-cancelling rhythm, and thus provide opportunities to punish landing lag from out of shield.

From the attacker's perspective, this presents not only the challenge I had presented earlier of keeping your cool, but also of situational awareness. Here's a post that addresses that aspect of L-cancelling in more detail.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...actually_want_lcanceling_to_return_to/cjqhlpu

The attacker must be able to be alert enough to successfully deal with the discrepancies caused when attacking a shield that has been strategically manipulated to cause them to fail their L-cancel, and thus provides an element of strategy to L-cancelling between attacker and defender. The effects are subtle, however to deny that it can have an effect that could provide a player with an advantage would be a mistake. To remove L-cancelling would also remove the strategic dynamics discussed above.

Even when not discussing light/hard-shield vs normal/non-shielded L-cancel trip-ups, there are potentially other ways in which you can mess up your opponent's L-cancel to open moments in which you can punish. Apparently, there was a match-up between M2K playing as Sheik vs PPMD, where M2K would throw needles at the floor, and PPMD would come in with aerials, not expecting the needles to have 'hurtboxes' and thus threw off his L-cancel rhythm and gave M2K an opening.

In short, finding ways to disrupt your opponent's L-cancelling rhythm can create openings in which you can counter-attack. The statement that L-cancelling offers no strategic value is then rendered null, and to remove L-cancelling could remove all of the aspects discussed above.

 

[MagnesD3]

Idk I don't wanna sound rude but I feel like your stretching the strategic value of this mechanic further then reality. The whole game represents someone's ability under pressure, l canceling being gone wouldn't change this. IMO

 

[HalcyonDays]

Idk I don't wanna sound rude but I feel like your stretching the strategic value of this mechanic further then reality. The whole game represents someone's ability under pressure, l canceling being gone wouldn't change this. IMO

It's no problem, you definitely don't come across as rude. So long as the discussion remains amiable, it should be a healthy endeavor.

As for me seemingly making a mountain out of a anthill, perhaps it's just due to the wordy nature of my posts, I apologize for those wall-of-texts. And...well, I know I just apologized for making walls of text, but I feel like the post I linked to brings up some excellent points. (Warning: Incoming wall of text) I'll go ahead and just copy the portion that speaks out to me in particular.

If you trade L-cancelling for halving all aerial reduction, what happens is that knowing whether you are going to hit your opponent's shield or not no longer matters. So people who are situationally aware (i.e. know whether the hit is guaranteed or is going to hit a shield) no longer have an advantage over people who are just throwing the move out blindly. No L-cancelling thus massively reduces the skill gap between low and medium level players, but in a way that they wouldn't be able to put their finger on. The player who is being situationally aware does not have as large of an advantage over a player who is doing a scripted series of bread-n-butter attacks. A player spamming Fox nairs brainlessly in Melee will do exceptionally well if the game auto-L-cancels, whereas if he has to pay attention and change his timing if the opponent holds their shield, he has to be a lot more aware of what is going on and what options his opponent has.

Situational awareness is a major skill that Smash tests (because combos are so fluid and improv, and you never see the same thing twice), so you can argue that this actually does increase the game's depth, and making it automatic reduces the thought required, not just tech skill, to shield pressure and combo.

I think when people complain that removing L-cancelling makes the game "too easy", they're not actually talking about the button inputs becoming too easy, but the fact that thought processes become easier when you don't have to judge what you are going to hit on the way down.

I agree very much with what this person mentioned about L-cancelling rewarding situational awareness, particularly, the underlined/bolded portion, and his example of a Fox brainlessly spamming Nairs with auto-L-cancels vs the situational awareness needed to paying attention to and changing the timing of his l-cancels on shield give a strategic meaning to L-cancelling, in addition to what I've posted previously.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

PM3.5 displays l cancel success rate post game. Most of the numbers I saw from the vgbc 3.5 launch tourney were low to mid 90's, and those were the md/va top players. So no, pros don't have 100% success rate with L cancelling. I also feel as though how L canceling plays into combos hasn't been talk. A missed l cancel can end a combo early, and removing L canceling would make combos significantly easier/more consistent mostly at lower levels but to some effect across the board.

Also stop comparing smash to traditional FG's, the two have superficial similarities at best and design elements from one are not directly comparable or applicable to those of the other.

That doesn't really defeat a lot of the main issues with it.Why ever not L-Cancel, does it really need to be there?

I think other fighting games are relevant to this, if anything like L-Cancelling were to exist in them they would use meter. This doesn't so there is no choice and hence no depth.

It's no problem, you definitely don't come across as rude. So long as the discussion remains amiable, it should be a healthy endeavor.

As for me seemingly making a mountain out of a anthill, perhaps it's just due to the wordy nature of my posts, I apologize for those wall-of-texts. And...well, I know I just apologized for making walls of text, but I feel like the post I linked to brings up some excellent points. (Warning: Incoming wall of text) I'll go ahead and just copy the portion that speaks out to me in particular.



I agree very much with what this person mentioned about L-cancelling rewarding situational awareness, particularly, the underlined/bolded portion, and his example of a Fox brainlessly spamming Nairs with auto-L-cancels vs the situational awareness needed to paying attention to and changing the timing of his l-cancels on shield give a strategic meaning to L-cancelling, in addition to what I've posted previously.

While this is true, they still all can be done within the same window to cover every single option and situation. It's tighter but even if you hit nothing/they powershield/tilt it. You can time an L-cancel to cover them all, though it is tighter.

Nor is it hard to see what your opponent is doing if you watch them.

 

[Thor]

That doesn't really defeat a lot of the main issues with it.Why ever not L-Cancel, does it really need to be there?

I think other fighting games are relevant to this, if anything like L-Cancelling were to exist in them they would use meter. This doesn't so there is no choice and hence no depth.



While this is true, they still all can be done within the same window to cover every single option and situation. It's tighter but even if you hit nothing/they powershield/tilt it. You can time an L-cancel to cover them all, though it is tighter.

Nor is it hard to see what your opponent is doing if you watch them.

L-cancel meter...? An idea?

Hm...

Maybe also it lets you somehow implement stronger smashes or not helpless after an airdodge[/move faster after doing so] or shieldstun-less shielding, and has slow regen or regens by landing damage? [low drain for L-cancel, mid drain for stronger smashes, high drain for airdodge not forcing helplessness, and extreme drain for auto-powershield for any duration, or something like that?] Opt for fast aerials, or more powerful smashes somehow...or get out of a tight corner and reset to neutral or get on the offensive...

This has potential to go somewhere... although it's a really, well, to be fair, bizarre mechanic idea I just came up with, and would need stats, tweaks, etc. (and a button input to use it), it could be interesting...

 

[Paquito]

That doesn't really defeat a lot of the main issues with it.Why ever not L-Cancel, does it really need to be there?

I think there's a consensus in this thread that there's no interesting gameplay surrounding l-canceling. There's a lot of posters here that are misinterpret this fact though, and incorrectly argue that removing it would have "no effect" on the game.

The fact that even the pros can miss 10% of their l-cancels is pretty significant (thanks for the stat,
Stalled). Games can be won and lost based on not being consistent with your mechanics, and
HalcyonDays provided one example of that.

I think other fighting games are relevant to this, if anything like L-Cancelling were to exist in them they would use meter. This doesn't so there is no choice and hence no depth.

Totally true, and it'd be neat to come up with a way l-canceling could be factored into interesting gameplay decisions, rather than just being a required mechanical skill. That is, of course, the point of the thread, but whenever a suggestion gets out there, it gets derailed by people freaking out over the prospect of the gameplay being changed by a new gameplay mechanic

 

[Paquito]

I think there's a consensus in this thread that there's no interesting gameplay surrounding l-canceling. There's a lot of posters here that are misinterpret this fact though, and incorrectly argue that removing it would have "no effect" on the game.

The fact that even the pros can miss 10% of their l-cancels is pretty significant (thanks for the stat,
Stalled). Games can be won and lost based on not being consistent with your mechanics, and
HalcyonDays provided one example of that.




Totally true, and it'd be neat to come up with a way l-canceling could be factored into interesting gameplay decisions, rather than just being a required mechanical skill. That is, of course, the point of the thread, but whenever a suggestion gets out there, it gets derailed by people freaking out over the prospect of the gameplay being changed by a new gameplay mechanic

L-cancel meter...? An idea?

Hm...

Maybe also it lets you somehow implement stronger smashes or not helpless after an airdodge[/move faster after doing so] or shieldstun-less shielding, and has slow regen or regens by landing damage? [low drain for L-cancel, mid drain for stronger smashes, high drain for airdodge not forcing helplessness, and extreme drain for auto-powershield for any duration, or something like that?] Opt for fast aerials, or more powerful smashes somehow...or get out of a tight corner and reset to neutral or get on the offensive...

This has potential to go somewhere... although it's a really, well, to be fair, bizarre mechanic idea I just came up with, and would need stats, tweaks, etc. (and a button input to use it), it could be interesting...

After X number of successive l-canceled hits, a Smash Ball appears. You can break it in one shot, your opponent has the opportunity to do so with a lot more shots.

Final Smash's would have to be balanced first though.

 

[PootisKonga]

The number would have to be decently high, though, or else high level play would be 40% final smashes

 

[Foo]

Pros do not miss L-canceling 10% of the time, no matter what the stats say. If you land an aerial that knocks the opponent of stage, most people don't L-Cancel because it doesn't do anything for you. There are times you don't L-Cancel because there's no point to. (not because it's better not to, just because it does nothing for you.)

Even if they are, it doesn't matter. Bottom line is it adds nothing to the game.

As for the L-Cancel meter idea, this heavily punishes players for shffling and disproportionately hits cerain characters like falcon or roy. It's too late for a mechanic like that to be in the game because the game isn't balanced around it. If the game was being built from the ground up, maybe.

As for the smash ball after so many L-Cancels, LOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOOLOLOL No. nononononon. That's ********. You get a kill, spam tech skill and get a free smashball to end the next stock with almost instantly. Falcon and spacies are the only characters that can be played. Even if it only worked on hit, it would buff characters like fox and falcon heavily for no good reason. That means they'd have to be changed to compensate and then they aren't the same character. Try again (or stop trying)

Oh, and the only L-canceling when fast falling idea. If you had to fast fall to L-Cancel that would nerf multihit aerials since fast falling means fewer hits.

 

[Anonistry]

L-cancel meter...? An idea?

Hm...

Maybe also it lets you somehow implement stronger smashes or not helpless after an airdodge[/move faster after doing so] or shieldstun-less shielding, and has slow regen or regens by landing damage? [low drain for L-cancel, mid drain for stronger smashes, high drain for airdodge not forcing helplessness, and extreme drain for auto-powershield for any duration, or something like that?] Opt for fast aerials, or more powerful smashes somehow...or get out of a tight corner and reset to neutral or get on the offensive...

This has potential to go somewhere... although it's a really, well, to be fair, bizarre mechanic idea I just came up with, and would need stats, tweaks, etc. (and a button input to use it), it could be interesting...

Its funny how easily meter in other games help create the necessity, and from there the effectiveness, of choice. I'm glad its not a thing in Smash, but it is exactly the kind of handy that is needed in a situation like this...

 

[Thor]

After X number of successive l-canceled hits, a Smash Ball appears. You can break it in one shot, your opponent has the opportunity to do so with a lot more shots.

Final Smash's would have to be balanced first though.

Hm...

I was thinking something like this...

- You each start off with 100 points in the meter [making a number up]. You can fill the meter up to 150 points (this is hard).

- Various moves landing restore various amounts of meter (can't be a flat rate, or else Fox lasers would still be awesome, but it COULD be a flat rate based on percent or something else, and these numbers may suck). For example, most aerial normal moves (A attacks) either restore unique points for each move (character-dependent), or they restore 3 points when they connect the attack, 1 point when they hit a shield (any hit counts, but I would think Fox dair doesn't give back 3 points if 3 parts connect, but rather a single point), and you get 40 points when you land a KO (since people love offensive play, this rewards that, and this can also reward using meter to finish the job). Jabs restore 1 point of meter when they connect for each hit (SDI those rapid jabs!), except certain multi-hits do more (Ike would probably get like 2 or 3 points back for his jabs). Tilts do various amounts, with generally less useful tilts restoring more points (Fox utilt probably gives a point or two, but his ftilt can restore ... 4 points? 5?). Throws would restore small amounts of meter (of course, even if just a point), and a pummel would restore a single point (probably). Landing a smash also depends, but some harder to land smashes restore more points (I could see Ike fsmash landing 8 points uncharged, whereas Fox usmash gives you like 3 points). Charging the smash gives more points to restore meter. Breaking an opponent's shield could give a huge charge (50 points, 30 against Jigglypuff since this scores you the KO [or if it doesn't, 70 points])? Shielding a move nets you a single point, regardless of the move (more on this way below). We might be able to somehow tie stale moves in (so like, a knee chain could be worth more, but after 5 Fox lasers you stop gaining any meter from them), but I don't know how this would look - just throwing it out.

- Players auto-regen meter at a rate of about 1 point per ~2-3 seconds (may be questionable, I don't know... again, this is basically off the top of my head, but if two players lose all meter, they can still start offense rather soon with at least attempted pokes with aerials, hm... in 12-18 seconds even w/out projectiles they get a whiffed aerial and still can aim again, but if they're confident can start safer aggression as soon as 2-3 seconds after they lost all meter).

- L-cancelling, and L-cancelling only, may be done as long as you have ANY meter, but it costs 5 points [or could be character-dependent, I don't know] - if you have fewer than 5, you lose all remaining meter but do still L-cancel (so shield pressure is still possible, but a good roll/ISSDI/etc. is rewarded). Others require full meter [so you can't do X if you don't have all Y points].

- Buffing a Smash to 1.2X [more? less?] knockback requires 20 points of meter. You lose 15 points on whiff and drain the full 20 on connections (But some attacks fill meter, so it is more rewarding to land it in many cases, and KOs ensure a positive payoff).

- Airdodging and not being helpless requires 50 points of meter. You can also airdodge out of helplessness for 80 points of meter (that is, if you up+B'd, or airdodged earlier, you can airdodge out of helplessness and re-enter it, but lose 80 points).

- In exchange for 100 points of meter, the next attack that hits your shield in the next 15 seconds will not inflict shieldstun - and it counts the entirety of the attack, so a multihit move will have all the hits with zero shieldstun. Projectiles that hit the shield are reflected. You get your point back here so you can mount an offensive with aerials if you want, even if you had exactly 100 meter, since the first whiffed aerial you have at least a point of meter back so you can L-cancel.

- IF people like the final smash idea, then 150 points = you can trigger the FS glow? It would probably need various drawbacks besides just fully draining meter, but I don't know...

- Death could put you at either current meter (gross in my opinion), 50 meter (less to not reward SDing when out of meter, but I don't like this either - but throwing it out), 75 meter (halfway, probably a fair place), or 100 meter (my original thought, but I realized this may be a bit high based on how the shielding option works).

The downside to all of this?
A) I have some ideas for inputs, but I don't know how workable they are... and I didn't mention them here

B) It's a way different game like this, and I don't think the PMBR would really support it, so this change seems INSANELY unlikely since it's way less like Melee if all of this is done.

C) All the stuff being character-dependent is probably a TON of work (see landing lag on aerials - think of the time that took...), and if it's standardized, even just on aerials vs jabs vs tilts vs smashes, it nerfs/buffs various characters for different strategies/attributes.

D) The final smash thing would give Mewtwo free stocks while Meta Knights gets a single-use chance to basically land a KO punch (like in Smash 4 with Little Mac). As Paquito pointed out, they'd have to rebalanced if present (personally, I'm against the Final Smash idea, but I did include it just because it was brought up).

Pros do not miss L-canceling 90% of the time, no matter what the stats say. If you land an aerial that knocks the opponent of stage, most people don't L-Cancel because it doesn't do anything for you. There are times you don't L-Cancel because there's no point to. (not because it's better not to, just because it does nothing for you.)

Even if they are, it doesn't matter. Bottom line is it adds nothing to the game.

As for the L-Cancel meter idea, this heavily punishes players for shffling and disproportionately hits cerain characters like falcon or roy. It's too late for a mechanic like that to be in the game because the game isn't balanced around it. If the game was being built from the ground up, maybe.

As for the smash ball after so many L-Cancels, LOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOOLOLOL No. nononononon. That's ********. You get a kill, spam tech skill and get a free smashball to end the next stock with almost instantly. Falcon and spacies are the only characters that can be played. Even if it only worked on hit, it would buff characters like fox and falcon heavily for no good reason. That means they'd have to be changed to compensate and then they aren't the same character. Try again (or stop trying)

Oh, and the only L-canceling when fast falling idea. If you had to fast fall to L-Cancel that would nerf multihit aerials since fast falling means fewer hits.

It says you edited it, but you misread that - they said they HIT them 90% of the time. And while it punishes for mindless shuffling (ala M2K and Zero when they 2v1'd Wizzy at TBH4), you could also make rates different for different characters - that would have to be looked at as well [as I noted above].

 

[Stalled]

That doesn't really defeat a lot of the main issues with it.Why ever not L-Cancel, does it really need to be there?

I think other fighting games are relevant to this, if anything like L-Cancelling were to exist in them they would use meter. This doesn't so there is no choice and hence no depth.

We have a fundamental difference in logic. My point of view is that you should always l cancel, and it needs to be there so there's a consequence for missing one, you do not, neither of us have legitimate reasons for keeping or removing it, it all basically boils down to taste.

Also don't quote my numbers, people. They are anecdotal and possibly not reliable as stats, they just serve to disprove the point that pros never miss an l cancel.

 

[Leafeon]

Someone asked me to explain it on Reddit so I'll just post that here as well:

This is a combination of brawl/melee/PM techs. I do a handoff to the AI and immediately jump knowing the AI will Uthrow since I'm in the middle of the stage. I spike boswer and miss my L-cancel on purpose so that during my landing lag I can input a dair for the AI who is jumping back up to me. Similar to brawl the AI will latch onto me at a certain range and sort of float in the air. I use dair as it has the most active frames of their moves to force bowser into using his get-up animation to use invincibility to try and dodge the dair. While I do this I run off the platform and dair making sure not to fast fall. The AI's dair combos into my dair and I only L-cancel my dair so that the AI starts their downsmash at the same time I do resulting in a kill.

Hylian on his Ice Climber combo.


I believe that the argument to make it automatic does not benefit everyone equally. I think we should stop talking about this now tbh. Simple enough that you won't mess it up after you learn, it's also light-press so it doesn't hurt your hand or require too much extra trigger movement, and not cancelling can benefit specific characters to an extent. My view on this topic is that the beginners don't like the calluses they have to develop to play the game, so they want the devs of the mod to make it ezpz for them. There is a reason why it hasn't been removed yet, and that reason is probably the same reason this thread won't have much sway on the dev's PoV on L cancelling.

 

[smashbro29]

Hylian on his Ice Climber combo.


I believe that the argument to make it automatic does not benefit everyone equally. I think we should stop talking about this now tbh. Simple enough that you won't mess it up after you learn, it's also light-press so it doesn't hurt your hand or require too much extra trigger movement, and not cancelling can benefit specific characters to an extent. My view on this topic is that the beginners don't like the calluses they have to develop to play the game, so they want the devs of the mod to make it ezpz for them. There is a reason why it hasn't been removed yet, and that reason is probably the same reason this thread won't have much sway on the dev's PoV on L cancelling.

Reason: Because Melee.

This is the only reason.

 

[Leafeon]

Reason: Because Melee.

This is the only reason.

Yup, that's the only reason. Uh-huh.

 

[Paquito]

not cancelling can benefit specific characters to an extent.

Can you expand on this?

Pros do not miss L-canceling 10% of the time, no matter what the stats say. If you land an aerial that knocks the opponent of stage, most people don't L-Cancel because it doesn't do anything for you. There are times you don't L-Cancel because there's no point to. (not because it's better not to, just because it does nothing for you.)

Good point, but even if it's not 10%, they do miss l-cancels at critical moments, which can swing matches.
HalcyonDays posted an example above.

Even if they are, it doesn't matter. Bottom line is it adds nothing to the game.

Gameplay-wise. No duh, that's the point of this thread

As for the L-Cancel meter idea, this heavily punishes players for shffling and disproportionately hits cerain characters like falcon or roy. It's too late for a mechanic like that to be in the game because the game isn't balanced around it. If the game was being built from the ground up, maybe.

I thought the meter was for a bonus, not a restriction, but either way it might be possible to balance the mechanic.

As for the smash ball after so many L-Cancels, LOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOOLOLOL No. nononononon. That's ********. You get a kill, spam tech skill and get a free smashball to end the next stock with almost instantly. Falcon and spacies are the only characters that can be played. Even if it only worked on hit, it would buff characters like fox and falcon heavily for no good reason. That means they'd have to be changed to compensate and then they aren't the same character. Try again (or stop trying)

*Shrug*. You do get that we're just spitballing ideas here, right?

Oh, and the only L-canceling when fast falling idea. If you had to fast fall to L-Cancel that would nerf multihit aerials since fast falling means fewer hits.

Not necessarily. You currently trigger an l-cancel a few frames before you land. Since your character's status is still "falling" you should be able to trigger a fast-fall status. Even if that's not currently the case, that seem like it's within the ability of the devs to implement.

 

[Leafeon]

Can you expand on this?

I already showed you Hylian's quote in a previous post. I don't play the character so I don't know much about it, but there are instances in which you would not L-Cancel in order to have Nana do something apparently. *Shrug*

 

[MagnesD3]

Hylian on his Ice Climber combo.


I believe that the argument to make it automatic does not benefit everyone equally. I think we should stop talking about this now tbh. Simple enough that you won't mess it up after you learn, it's also light-press so it doesn't hurt your hand or require too much extra trigger movement, and not cancelling can benefit specific characters to an extent. My view on this topic is that the beginners don't like the calluses they have to develop to play the game, so they want the devs of the mod to make it ezpz for them. There is a reason why it hasn't been removed yet, and that reason is probably the same reason this thread won't have much sway on the dev's PoV on L cancelling.

Not really, im pretty sure everyone in the thread can do l cancelling just fine, we think its just a useless mechanic that serves no strategic purpose other then making one arbitrarily check their execution that tends to be easy so its not much of a check when this is done the whole match whether L cancelling exists or not...

Their needs to be a reason not to L cancel or it should probably just be removed. (and im not including hylians Ice climber example since its insanely specific and doesnt apply to the entire game balance)

 

[Leafeon]

Not really, im pretty sure everyone in the thread can do l cancelling just fine, we think its just a useless mechanic that serves no strategic purpose other then making one arbitrarily check their execution that tends to be easy so its not much of a check when this is done the whole match whether L cancelling exists or not...

Their needs to be a reason not to L cancel or it should probably just be removed. (and im not including hylians Ice climber example since its insanely specific and doesnt apply to the entire game balance)

Sooo... what you're saying is, is that because everyone else doesn't really have much need to not L cancel, that we should nerf said character's options-specific or not, it's still an option- because you want to make everything permanently L cancelled.
Sounds good to me.

 

[Paquito]

Not really, im pretty sure everyone in the thread can do l cancelling just fine, we think its just a useless mechanic that serves no strategic purpose other then making one arbitrarily check their execution that tends to be easy so its not much of a check when this is done the whole match whether L cancelling exists or not...

Their needs to be a reason not to L cancel or it should probably just be removed. (and im not including hylians Ice climber example since its insanely specific and doesnt apply to the entire game balance)

Sooo... what you're saying is, is that because everyone else doesn't really have much need to not L cancel, that we should nerf said character's options-specific or not, it's still an option- because you want to make everything permanently L cancelled.
Sounds good to me.

What do you two think of this:

What if l-canceling is automatically applied only if a fast-fall is in effect?

It seems like it addresses everyone's concerns

- l-canceling as the "always right decision" is removed
- (some) technical skill is still required to trigger an l-cancel
- normal landing animations are retained when not fast falling, maintaining the current experience for casual players

*edit* I suppose that first bullet should read:

- L-canceling as an arbitrary button press is removed.

It's still always the right decision, but in most situations it's tied to input a player is already entering (fast falling), and it seems intuitive that when you "press down to fall faster", you recover faster as well.

 

[smashbro29]

Yup, that's the only reason. Uh-huh.

That's what more than one dev has told me so far.

 

[MagnesD3]

Sooo... what you're saying is, is that because everyone else doesn't really have much need to not L cancel, that we should nerf said character's options-specific or not, it's still an option- because you want to make everything permanently L cancelled.
Sounds good to me.

Yes, those specific characters (if they even need it) may get something to compensate if it really was essential to their game but I think it would just be better for the game overall this way, I just hate mechanics if there is no point in them, good fighters shouldn't have useless mechanics.

 

[Fortress]

Sooo... what you're saying is, is that because everyone else doesn't really have much need to not L cancel, that we should nerf said character's options-specific or not, it's still an option- because you want to make everything permanently L cancelled.
Sounds good to me.

Yes. There's no reason to keep such a fundamentally flawed mechanic in the game for one, extremely specific combination. In the imaginary world that this asinine mechanic was removed, the character would just gain something to compensate if they needed it.

 

[Paquito]

I don't know man, MvC3 and SFIV animate pretty damn well.

Do j.HK close to the ground with Ryu or Ken, it's perfect. Near instant and smooth as butter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj1_By1c39A&list=TL0pmg2SjaXuA

There's a lot I could say about this, but the most pertinent point is those landing animations are *still* slower than l-canceled landing animations in Smash.

 

[Foo]

@ Paquito Meter was both suggested as a bonus and a limitation, I responded to both of them. There are too many characters that rely on shffling to balance either of them without significantly changing them and the entire game around it.

Let's say we have a black spot painted on our white walled room. I say we just paint white over the black spot, you're saying we paint the whole room black, but that involves a lot more work, completely changes the room, and will involve moving all the furniture around in the process. If we could turn said blackspot into a magnificence work of art that fits the style of the room, I'd be all for it. However, that'd take a work of creative genius.

I understand that you are spitballing ideas. I only laughed because it was a hilariously bad idea, not just regular bad one. I'm going to keep shooting down these ideas until you guys either give up, or someone comes up with an actually good idea.

Also, for the other idea. I don't fast fall with roy nair, falcon nair, yoshi dair, game and watch back air (sometimes) etc. While it's possible to fast fall at a certain point without losing damage, it'll be really arbitrary and annoying. While that idea isn't that bad, per se, it changes nothing. I'll still be the same spirit of l-canceling, just in new clothes. It'll make it slightly less annoying and arbitrary for some, more so for others.

 

[Paquito]

Let's say we have a black spot painted on our white walled room. I say we just paint white over the black spot, you're saying we paint the whole room black, but that involves a lot more work, completely changes the room, and will involve moving all the furniture around in the process.

This is a "no duh". No one is under the assumption that adding a gameplay mechanic wouldn't affect the rest of the game. Part of the fun of spitballing these hypotheticals is figuring out how they'd affect other parts of the game.

While that idea isn't that bad, per se, it changes nothing. I'll still be the same spirit of l-canceling, just in new clothes. It'll make it slightly less annoying and arbitrary for some, more so for others.

It gets rid of one arbitrary button press, which is significant. Plus, in terms of accessibility, it's pretty intuitive to tie the notions of "get to the ground faster" with "recover faster".

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

This is a "no duh". No one is under the assumption that adding a gameplay mechanic wouldn't affect the rest of the game. Part of the fun of spitballing these hypotheticals is figuring out how they'd affect other parts of the game.



It gets rid of one arbitrary button press, which is significant. Plus, in terms of accessibility, it's pretty intuitive to tie the notions of "get to the ground faster" with "recover faster".

You'd still have the whole "always do this" that everyone ******* about regarding L-canceling. It becomes at times an arbitrary stick press and certain moves following a short hop will never fully come out because you fast fell. It's a bad idea that makes certain moves more laggy and practically worthless when "L-Canceled".

 

[Paquito]

certain moves following a short hop will never fully come out because you fast fell.

Which moves? If you hit down during the same frame-window you have to l-cancel, it shouldn't make a difference.

 

[kupo15]

There needs to be some advantage to not L cancelling if its going to stay imo.

There actually are some.

Pika's dair and a few other similar moves had an additional hitbox upon landing if you didn't L cancel. (Axe actually used this with a ledge cancel to get more damage)

That brings me to my other point, you don't always have to l cancel, you could ledge cancel instead

Also you can purposely miss an l cancel to not get punished (happens a lot melee ganon vs sheik, you can't grab sheik if she misses an l cancel on the nair I think) This last reason is trollish but still was the better option accidentally by the player

Btw the auto l cancel due to ff is a horrible idea