Improving game-play around L-canceling

[Paquito]

From the Embracing Wave-dashing thread:

L-cancelling does nothing but raise the skill floor arbitrarily. It adds nothing strategically to the game, as it is always the best decision, and is just a unintuitive technical barrier to newer players.

Binary suggested that the mechanic should be removed all together, but are there ways interesting decisions could be made around L-canceling? To make it interesting, it would have to use up some sort of resource or have a penalty associated with its use.

 

[Paquito]

What if each l-cancel applies a "exhaustion" stack on the character for X seconds, lowering the damage of their attacks with a few stacks, lowering the knock-back of their attacks with a few more stacks, and maybe apply a shield-break penalty to the character at a certain number of stacks?

 

[Binary Clone]

Though I very much hesitate to say definitively that we should add or do away with one thing or another, I think that L-cancelling as a mechanic is worth discussing.

Technical barriers are not definitively a bad thing. The substantial part of the discussion on L-cancelling is that it is a technical barrier that is always the right decision, as noted above, and thus adds no strategic element to the gameplay.

When you ask the question "Why is L-cancelling in the game?" the simple answer is "because it was in Melee," but I think we should all have recognized by now that this is not a good enough reason. So, looking at PM in a vacuum, why is L cancelling present?

The explicit purpose that it serves is, of course, to reduce landing lag after aerial attacks. But because this is a strategically insignificant option, it being the correct thing to do no matter the situation, it boils down to an additional technical barrier to executing combos and speeding up the game.

So, what's wrong with taking it out entirely and simply reducing the landing lag to the L-cancelled lag for all moves? The skill floor is lowered, so the game moves faster for newer players, and high-level play is unaffected, as few competitive players fail L-cancels with notable frequency.

That said, on the other hand, is there anything intrinsically wrong with what amounts to an arbitrary technical barrier?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

When I think about the concept of L canceling, I think about people who want to learn the game and be good at it. Once some time and effort is put into this, it becomes second nature. We shouldn't be trying to make the game for people who don't play it, we should be making the game for those who do.

 

[Paquito]

The explicit purpose that it serves is, of course, to reduce landing lag after aerial attacks. But because this is a strategically insignificant option, it being the correct thing to do no matter the situation, it boils down to an additional technical barrier to executing combos and speeding up the game.

So, what's wrong with taking it out entirely and simply reducing the landing lag to the L-cancelled lag for all moves? The skill floor is lowered, so the game moves faster for newer players, and high-level play is unaffected, as few competitive players fail L-cancels with notable frequency.

While the decision to L-cancel isn't an interesting gameplay decision, the ability to do so, consistently, is a technical achievement that distinguishes lower skilled players from higher skilled players. Even if competitive players rarely fail to L-cancel, victory usually boils down to avoiding mistakes and capitalizing on your opponents mistakes when they happen.

So I'd be against outright removing it, but I do like the idea of making it a more interesting gameplay decision. (I hadn't thought about it at all until you pointed this out)

 

[kchamp523]

I remember someone suggested that L-cancel should be changed so that if you hit L or R on the first frame, then you receive 100% lag reduction. If you miss the 1 frame window but still hit the regular L-cancel window, then it would be a regular L-cancel.

I thought this was a good idea to add some depth and I wanted to know what you guys think of this.

 

[1MachGO]

Anyone else think this won't go anywhere?

 

[Paquito]

Anyone else think this won't go anywhere?

1MachGO's chest puffed out with pride. Another foolish petition stomped!

Miles overhead, the point flew over.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Honestly if L-Cancelling messed with the tech window such that getting hit out of an improperly spaced SHFFL'd aerial actually screwed you over, the mechanic would be fine.

But apparently you can light press to get around that, so ...

 

[shairn]

In the year 20xx, L canceling is removed and everybody plays Fox because fk it why would you play any other character when shffls are now a joke

 

[Celestis]

I think it would be neat if there was added ending lag i you miss the L-cancel. Like landing 10 frames after hitting it, or hitting the button to many times before landing.That way it would be risk vs reward. But other wise, think everything against it is silly.

 

[Paquito]

I think it would be neat if there was added ending lag i you miss the L-cancel. Like landing 10 frames after hitting it, or hitting the button to many times before landing.That way it would be risk vs reward. But other wise, think everything against it is silly.

Interesting. I don't think this changes the decision making at the highest level of play, though. The professional players are all going to master the technique, so it's always the right decision to L-cancel. This penalty is effectively just an increase of the already existing penalty of missing an L-cancel in competitive play. i.e. you're either vulnerable longer, or are even less able to follow up on your last attack.

 

[Jackson]

1MachGO's chest puffed out with pride. Another foolish petition stomped!

Miles overhead, the point flew over.

Calm down. Many people agree with him. L cancelling is just something that you need to do. It's exciting when you first start L cancelling and getting those combos together.

 

[Boiko]

When I think about the concept of L canceling, I think about people who want to learn the game and be good at it. Once some time and effort is put into this, it becomes second nature. We shouldn't be trying to make the game for people who don't play it, we should be making the game for those who do.

This.

 

[Paquito]

Calm down. Many people agree with him. L cancelling is just something that you need to do. It's exciting when you first start L cancelling and getting those combos together.

*whoosh*

 

[Foo]

I am in favor for removing L-canceling altogether. Almost all of your other suggestions would simply increase the arbitrary tech barrier. The great thing about pm tech is that it generally ISN'T arbitrary. Wavedashing is perfect, teching is perfect, fast falling is perfect, short hopping is almost perfect (should be bindable) dacus is almost perfect (I think it takes too many buttons and is too short of a window, but oh well), and character specific tech is almost perfect. With the way fast falling, shorthopping, dacusing, ,airdodging and etc. works, it creates a very dynamic and versatile movement system with countless implementations and angles and.. you get the idea.

However, l canceling, what does it add? It makes you press a button at a specific time. It adds NOTHING to the game. It's basically a quick time event. It's only purpose is to create an arbitrary tech barrier between less technical and more technical players. Imagine if you had to hit the z button every single time you landed to half your natural landing lag (or rather, it would be double without pressing it) or if you had to hit l 7 frames before the aerials animation ends or it has an extra 10 frames of lag. Imagine that when you are getting up at high percents you had to press l and r over and over. These are all equivalents to l canceling.

Even without l-canceling, shffling isn't easy. Pressing l at the end is probably the easiest part of shffling to tbh.

When I think about the concept of L canceling, I think about people who want to learn the game and be good at it. Once some time and effort is put into this, it becomes second nature. We shouldn't be trying to make the game for people who don't play it, we should be making the game for those who do.

The game DOES reward you for putting time and effort into it. Take away l canceling and nothing is different, the game is just more streamlined. In competitive play, you'll see fewer l buttons being pressed and almost nothing else. If you are only beating someone because you L cancel and they don't do it as well, I don't think you deserve to beat them anyway lol. You may as well unlock buffs to your character the more hours you put into the game.

 

[Jackson]

I think part of the coolness of PM/Melee is the practice and implementation of ATs. Of course wavedashing/waveshining (Falco main in melee here) was a struggle for me at first. I even recall wondering to myself, "how will I ever be able to consistently do this"? But you know what? I kept at it. I did it. I did it more. And eventually, it became easy. Now, wavedashing is a prime movement option for me and I am able to continue combos with waveshines. Now that I have that stuff down Melee has become incredibly fun. I honestly do not think it would be as fulfilling if this stuff was automatic.

 

[ninjuh1124]

If we remove L-cancelling, we may as well remove the ability to keep shields up and any time you ever get attacked, your character automatically powershields. After all, powershields is objectively better, etc. etc. and so an and so forth

 

[Foo]

If we remove L-cancelling, we may as well remove the ability to keep shields up and any time you ever get attacked, your character automatically powershields. After all, powershields is objectively better, etc. etc. and so an and so forth

Nope, that's completely different. Reacting to what your opponent does is totally different because of limited human reaction time. That includes spacing and timing your attacks as well as blocking of dodging them. If human reaction time was literally instant, this would be true, but it's not. If it were, it'd be 20XX and rock paper scissors for port priority would decide the match. As for powersheilding projectiles, it is not always the correct option. If you were forced to do it every single time, it'd be easy to punish. Also, lucas could heal for free because of it.

@ Jackson Waveshining is completely different from L-canceling. There is no artificial difficulty in waveshining. First input Down-b, no way to make that more simple. Second input jump: making it automatically jump canceled itself, it would limit the options with shine, such as stalling off stage or reflecting projectiles or choosing between short and full hop. Aridodgeing down to the side is the simplest input as automatically wavedashing would remove jumping out of shine as an option (no more pillaring or shffling shine pressure).

L canceling on the other hand is not a matter of options. You do it, every time, no matter what. It's just another button you have to press every time, because nintendo says so. If it were removed, one thing would be different. The gap between weaker and stronger players are lessened, but since they are stronger anyway, who cares?

Not to mention, the L button is HELLA overused. L to wavedash, waveland, shffl, shield, etc. The L button on my main controller is breaking due to overuse, and I can't use it anymore till I fix it.

 

[Paquito]

@ Jackson Waveshining is completely different from L-canceling.

You don't even need to explain this. The fact that it's "possible to learn to do this thing consistently" isn't an argument in favor of leaving that thing in. I got this all over the wave-dashing thread too.

 

[Celestis]

Interesting. I don't think this changes the decision making at the highest level of play, though. The professional players are all going to master the technique, so it's always the right decision to L-cancel. This penalty is effectively just an increase of the already existing penalty of missing an L-cancel in competitive play. i.e. you're either vulnerable longer, or are even less able to follow up on your last attack.

But this is the case for everything, though.

 

[Foo]

But this is the case for everything, though.

It is not always the right decision to wavedash, ledge dash, ledge hop aerial, short hop vs full hop, crouch cancel into smash etc. etc. etc. etc. There is NEVER EVER EVER a situation where a player chooses not to L cancel. I can't think of anything else in smash that has that property.

Let's break down shffling and see where we can make it simpler

1. It isn't always correct to short hop (rather than full hop) before an aerial
2. It isn't always correct to use your aerial the first frame possible.
3. It isn't always correct to use a certain aerial over your other aerials
4. It isn't always correct to fast fall at the apex of your jump
5. It is ALWAYS correct to l cancel after using said aerial if possible.

I can list every bit of tech skill in the game from dash dancing to teching to dacusing, and each of them can be used as options.

EDIT: Pretty sure I misinterpreted the post that I replied to. If so, whoops. However, I guess my point still contributes to the thread.

You don't even need to explain this. The fact that it's "possible to learn to do this thing consistently" isn't an argument in favor of leaving that thing in. I got this all over the wave-dashing thread too.

Evidently I do need to explain it, since Jackson was drawing a parallel between waveshining and l canceling.

 

[Fortress]

L-cancelling is the dumbest mechanic ever introduced to a fighting game, and should be removed. Your moves should just be safe, or unsafe, not 'safe if I can press this button', which is fine at early skill levels since you just learn it, but you shouldn't have to. Brawl/Smash 4 had it right when they introduced standardized landing lag. It's what every other fighter does, and it takes away nothing from the experience. I say that all moves should have the landing lag of their L-cancelled rates, and just say nuts to the mechanic.

 

[Mera Mera]

I will say this: the claim that L-canceling is not interactive is not altogether true. If and when you go into hitlag is something your opponent has some say in, via using/tilting their shield (and/or using light shield in Melee and possibly in PM in the future if it's added), crouch canceling, and spot dodging ect. (since these change the amount of hitlag experienced by both players).

These mixups can be used to intentionally mess with the attacking player's L-cancel timing. There's also kinda silly tactics like throwing needles at the ground to mess with L-cancel timings (since you can hit the needles... or was that taken out in PM? Since I heard they removed their hurtboxes to avoid them beating all projectiles like in Melee (sans transcendent lasers)).

Other than that, a major pro of L-canceling makes up a decent percent of most characters' button inputs, and executing fast inputs does lead to some level of satisfaction.

The major and fairly obvious downside is that it discourages casual smashers from getting into the competitive scene. Which isn't a small thing by any means.

I used to hate L-canceling, so I know where you guys are coming from... I'm kinda undecided on the technique because on paper it seems pretty silly, but to be honest I find it pretty satisfying to execute.

 

[Pwii]

Consider this: arbitrary technical barriers are a part of what makes smash unique. I like the arbitrary skill barrier, because it makes me feel a lot better when I actually win. I didn't just outplay my opponent, I out-trained them. And while it doesn't really make sense in design, it helps the community, and makes smash different. The harder the technique, the better the feeling of success.

 

[Binary Clone]

Consider this: arbitrary technical barriers are a part of what makes smash unique.

First... I don't even know.

Second, L-cancelling isn't even hard. If you beat someone, you don't have to out train them at all. Especially in the case of L-cancelling, at higher level play, hell, even at mid-level competitive play, L-cancelling is completely mindless. You being able to SHFFL more consistently than your opponent is a complete non-issue at the level of almost any competitively competent player.

If the harder the technique, the better the feeling of success, L-cancelling really probably doesn't do much for you.

 

[Pwii]

If the harder the technique, the better the feeling of success, L-cancelling really probably doesn't do much for you.

Yes, it doesn't do much. But that doesn't disprove my point. Although l-cancelling becomes a smaller part of "tech skill = satisfaction," it's still a part of it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Seriously this has been beaten to death dozens of times. Why does it have to be a point of contention every time a new player starts frequenting the PM boards? Holy Saint ****, can we just ban talking about this again? PMDT knows enough to make a decision about this on their own (and it's probably going to stay in unaltered). Brand new arguments about the oldest point of contention in PM aren't going to be brought up by scrubs with no or next to no experience and apparently too few hours put into the game practicing even wavedashing. Seriously, back to that other thread, I don't remember which, if you're failing wavedashing multiple times before getting it on the fourth try, you're not in a position to make a sound judgement about its difficulty. But anyway the L-canceling thing got repetitive the 15th and 30th times around, here we are at #45 or som'at, and the same ****ty logic is still used on either side of the argument, with an occasional (ignored) sound reasoning here and there.
Somebody lock please?

 

[Paquito]

Seriously this has been beaten to death dozens of times. Why does it have to be a point of contention every time a new player starts frequenting the PM boards? Holy Saint Fuck, can we just ban talking about this again? PMDT knows enough to make a decision about this on their own (and it's probably going to stay in unaltered). Brand new arguments about the oldest point of contention in PM aren't going to be brought up by scrubs with no or next to no experience and apparently too few hours put into the game practicing even wavedashing. Seriously, back to that other thread, I don't remember which, if you're failing wavedashing multiple times before getting it on the fourth try, you're not in a position to make a sound judgement about its difficulty. But anyway the L-canceling thing got repetitive the 15th and 30th times around, here we are at #45 or som'at, and the same ****ty logic is still used on either side of the argument, with an occasional (ignored) sound reasoning here and there.
Somebody lock please?

 

[Paquito]

Second, L-cancelling isn't even hard. If you beat someone, you don't have to out train them at all. Especially in the case of L-cancelling, at higher level play, hell, even at mid-level competitive play, L-cancelling is completely mindless. You being able to SHFFL more consistently than your opponent is a complete non-issue at the level of almost any competitively competent player.

What do you think of my earlier point?

While the decision to L-cancel isn't an interesting gameplay decision, the ability to do so, consistently, is a technical achievement that distinguishes lower skilled players from higher skilled players. Even if competitive players rarely fail to L-cancel, victory usually boils down to avoiding mistakes and capitalizing on your opponents mistakes when they happen.

So even though it's not a hard thing to master, it is something that's interesting when we're talking about the ability to consistently perform a mechanically perfect game under the pressure of tournament play. A rare instance of an L-cancel can swing a match, and that can be exciting to watch.

 

[Foo]

I will say this: the claim that L-canceling is not interactive is not altogether true. If and when you go into hitlag is something your opponent has some say in, via using/tilting their shield (and/or using light shield in Melee and possibly in PM in the future if it's added), crouch canceling, and spot dodging ect. (since these change the amount of hitlag experienced by both players).

These mixups can be used to intentionally mess with the attacking player's L-cancel timing. There's also kinda silly tactics like throwing needles at the ground to mess with L-cancel timings (since you can hit the needles... or was that taken out in PM? Since I heard they removed their hurtboxes to avoid them beating all projectiles like in Melee (sans transcendent lasers)).

The hitlag is so minor, that you can press the button at the same time and still l cancel. Also, if you hit L every 7 frames (or whatever the window is) you will l cancel every time. If you mess it up, you can just do it again. Also, getting hit by a needle or a laser knocks you out of the lag of your aerial, so you no longer need to l cancel. Even if you did, you could just hit l again.

Consider this: arbitrary technical barriers are a part of what makes smash unique. I like the arbitrary skill barrier, because it makes me feel a lot better when I actually win. I didn't just outplay my opponent, I out-trained them. And while it doesn't really make sense in design, it helps the community, and makes smash different. The harder the technique, the better the feeling of success.

Nope, every fighting game ever has arbitrary tech barrier. You think all those quarter circle, half circle whatever bs is necessary? Since the combos in most of them are always the same, that's arbitrary tech. L canceling isn't that hard, and it is the only example of arbitrary tech in smash. I love how technical smash is, and I love how the movement and inputs generally flow so well together. The place you have to "out train" in is generally movement and making your gameplay tighter, so you don't lose frames or mis input as often. This isn't a matter of removing the tech barrier from smash, it's about removing the one peice of tech that serves no purpose in the game.

Seriously this has been beaten to death dozens of times. Why does it have to be a point of contention every time a new player starts frequenting the PM boards? Holy Saint Fuck, can we just ban talking about this again? PMDT knows enough to make a decision about this on their own (and it's probably going to stay in unaltered). Brand new arguments about the oldest point of contention in PM aren't going to be brought up by scrubs with no or next to no experience and apparently too few hours put into the game practicing even wavedashing. Seriously, back to that other thread, I don't remember which, if you're failing wavedashing multiple times before getting it on the fourth try, you're not in a position to make a sound judgement about its difficulty. But anyway the L-canceling thing got repetitive the 15th and 30th times around, here we are at #45 or som'at, and the same ****ty logic is still used on either side of the argument, with an occasional (ignored) sound reasoning here and there.
Somebody lock please?

Well that's... extremely rude. Also, an incredibly blatent ad hominem. Clearly, since we think L canceling we are terrible players totally incapable of it, or the most basic tech skill like l canceling of wave dashing.

Oh and you are completely right, the mere thought of pulling off a single shffl makes me salivate uncontrollably, and wavedashing farther out of my reach than my TC remote. Whenever I try any of this, my fat !@#$ing fingers knot up, light on fire, then fall off and my dog eats them. Just watch me try to pull of these super hard moves and pitty me kappa
http://youtu.be/cB08tC8DW_k?t=35s

(Yes, I know the guy I'm playing isn't good, but this is just a small tech example since there are so few vids of me. Even since this tourney (about 3 weeks ago iirc) I've improved a lot; if it were me today, I would have ended that combo with fair.)

 

[Mera Mera]

The hitlag is so minor, that you can press the button at the same time and still l cancel.

Not entirely true. It depends on what move you're using for one, and for second it can **** up your timing on your fast fall which indirectly screws up your L-cancel. Admittedly this is a way bigger concern for fast fallers, but it's there.

 

[SN Viper]

the arguments to get rid of l caneling are hella strong. Good read.

 

[Stalled]

The arguments to get rid of L cancelling aren't strong, they all boil down to "i dun wanna." What positive comes out of removing L cancelling? Baddies get better without developing any muscle memory or finger dexterity? That sounds a bit counter productive no? You should also realize that even pros miss an l cancel eventually, and at that level, as well as any other, that's grounds for a punish. Arbitrary tech barriers are good things because technical skill is part of the game, ie: git gud.

Paquito why do you want to make everything in this game super easy?

 

[Binary Clone]

The arguments to get rid of L cancelling aren't strong, they all boil down to "i dun wanna." What positive comes out of removing L cancelling?

I kind of find it hard to believe you've actually read any part of the thread beyond the OP.

The arguments boil down to, "L-cancelling adds little to nothing to the game, so why is it there?"

If you'd actually read Paquito's posts, you'd see that he's actually against taking out L-cancelling, and would rather a system be in place that makes it more influential by giving it some kind of strategic value or a greater impact on play.

 

[CORY]

I will say this: the claim that L-canceling is not interactive is not altogether true. If and when you go into hitlag is something your opponent has some say in, via using/tilting their shield (and/or using light shield in Melee and possibly in PM in the future if it's added), crouch canceling, and spot dodging ect. (since these change the amount of hitlag experienced by both players).

These mixups can be used to intentionally mess with the attacking player's L-cancel timing. There's also kinda silly tactics like throwing needles at the ground to mess with L-cancel timings (since you can hit the needles... or was that taken out in PM? Since I heard they removed their hurtboxes to avoid them beating all projectiles like in Melee (sans transcendent lasers)).

l cancelling is acceptable, only because of the slight interplays. i'd really like to see the interplay be more developed, though. it's there, but it doesn't really do much, though, since as foo mentioned, the added hit-stop of attacks on different things (shield, tilted shield, character, etc...) doesn't add quite enough to mess up your timing if you mis-input it. it really just kicks in on attacks that have naturally heavy hit stop (ala ganon's dair. basically anything that deals a lot of damage, since that gives that attack extra hitstop).

however, adjusting things to work this way would change a lot of the how the game paces and feels, so it's doubtful that would be added in. and putting in a punisher mechanic for actually l cancelling properly is, quite frankly, dumb. that would just lead to ruining the feel of the game and destroying combos/punishes even more than just changing hit-stop values against shields and characters to be more extreme.

 

[mimgrim]

What positive comes out of removing L cancelling?

What negatives come from removing L-cancel and turning normal landing lag into L-canceled landing lag?

Hint: The answer for both question are completely subjective based on personal mind-set and neither are factually correct.

 

[Thor]

What negatives come from removing L-cancel and turning normal landing lag into L-canceled landing lag?

Hint: The answer for both question are completely subjective based on personal mind-set and neither are factually correct.

This.

Consider this: arbitrary technical barriers are a part of what makes smash unique. I like the arbitrary skill barrier, because it makes me feel a lot better when I actually win. I didn't just outplay my opponent, I out-trained them. And while it doesn't really make sense in design, it helps the community, and makes smash different. The harder the technique, the better the feeling of success.

Arbitrary technical barriers aren't even close to making smash unique - in my opinion, UMvC3 is way harder to do cool stuff in (especially on a PS3 controller) than is Smash, and I will say the same of street fighter, tekken, etc. That's why Nintendo intentionally removed L-cancelling - they wanted a game where a pre-requisite to higher-level play was NOT grinding out countless hours of tech skill (and there are still various ATs that require time in the lab in Brawl and Smash 4). The removal of those tech barriers in Brawl and Smash 4 is what makes Smash unique - Melee is just another random fighting game by comparison, since like every other fighting game, you have to grind out all those tech skill things - there it's certain combo strings, in Melee it's wavedashes, l-cancels (with one timing for most aerials if you just learn to time them well from SHFFLs, since shield stun doesn't do enough to make the window different on most characters), etc.

I'm not saying Melee is a bad game for it either, but to say "arbitrary tech skill is good because it's unique" strikes me as laughable.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So what's that? This discussion has still accomplished nothing new? PMDT knows what they want to do with L-canceling. This thread isn't serving any purpose. Needs a lock tbh.

 

[Paquito]

So what's that? This discussion has still accomplished nothing new? PMDT knows what they want to do with L-canceling. This thread isn't serving any purpose. Needs a lock tbh.

This thread has allowed people, that love Smash Brothers, to discuss the gameplay mechanics surrounding L-canceling. We're doing so because it's fun to discuss game-design and consider different design decisions would affect the game. This is the case whether or not the Project M devs ever make changes to L-canceling.

I'm sorry the existence of this thread enrages you to the point that you feel the need to demand it be locked. Perhaps you should go take a walk.

Paquito why do you want to make everything in this game super easy?

I don't want to make everything in the game "super easy". Just so I have an idea of how much you've followed the discussion, can you tell me your opinion on the merits of l-canceling as an interesting gameplay decision vs its merits as a sign of technical proficiency?