Improving game-play around L-canceling

[Narpas_sword]

What did you expect?

replacing L cancel with a button that says 'SWAG' in big letters on the screen.

 

[Fortress]

replacing L cancel with a button that says 'SWAG' in big letters on the screen.

No, 'dopefactor' guy was a different guy, remember?

 

[smashbro29]

One thing that hasn't been touched upon here is the aesthetic reasons to keep l-canceling. When you don't l-cancel, characters have a nice landing animation related to the move they just landed from, which conveys the weight of the character and the type of the move they just performed. The quality of that animation is a mark of a well-made Nintendo game, and one reason why non-competitive players enjoy playing the game.

If you get rid of l-canceling and just have every aerial auto l-canceled, those nice animations disappear. The aesthetic appeal is lost for the casual players. If you keep the slower recoveries, we have the aesthetic appeal, but competitive matches slow down.

Keeping l-canceling allows us to have both a fast competitive game and appealing visuals for casual fans.

Make nice but fast animations.

Problem solved.

If they made the game around it rather than continuing to treat it like an obscure trick this would be a non-issue.

 

[Narpas_sword]

No, 'dopefactor' guy was a different guy, remember?

oh, i just lump 'stupid' into one.

 

[Foo]

One thing that hasn't been touched upon here is the aesthetic reasons to keep l-canceling. When you don't l-cancel, characters have a nice landing animation related to the move they just landed from, which conveys the weight of the character and the type of the move they just performed. The quality of that animation is a mark of a well-made Nintendo game, and one reason why non-competitive players enjoy playing the game.

If you get rid of l-canceling and just have every aerial auto l-canceled, those nice animations disappear. The aesthetic appeal is lost for the casual players. If you keep the slower recoveries, we have the aesthetic appeal, but competitive matches slow down.

Keeping l-canceling allows us to have both a fast competitive game and appealing visuals for casual fans.

You can't be serious.

@ Cpt. When would you ever not L cancel? There is literally zero downside to it.

I wonder if there could be a solution in a different kind of end-move action besides L-cancelling. As it is, you either half the lag or you... do nothing? Some of the suggestions are "l-cancel here for better cancel!" but that actually is just "git gudder for moar l-cancel" when you break it down.

A new option would need to be just that: new. Not even cancelling, but something that somehow makes up for it. For example, and this is super-dumb and don't treat it as a serious suggestion just yet, but what if instead of halving the lag, you have a "cancel" that keeps lag, but gives armor and allows for a counterstrike if hit? Instead of making your move safe, you play a game, presumably on moves that are still pretty darn punishable even with l-cancel, where the opponent now guesses if you l-cancel, and tries to punish, or you armor-cancel, and backs off because that punish will be countered. If they guessed wrong on the armor-cancel and you l-cancelled, you get benefited with a safe recovery. Like I said, I don't think this particular thought can go anywhere, but its that idea. L-cancel becomes an option if you can give something else that, instead of halving lag, literally makes you think keeping the lag could provide a worthwhile option.

The real question is... in a game so neutral dominant, so read-reliant, and so punish-heavy as Smash, what in the world can you think of that would be a favorable alternative?

If a design genius comes up with a good way to give L-canceling depth, I'll be all for it. However, I don't think it's possible. It either boils down to punishing you for L-canceling, or really ******** 50-50 mixups.

 

[Fortress]

Standardize landing lag to be their L-Cancelled rates, clean up the animations, and remove L-Cancelling. Kind of like what those other Smash games did... you know, Brawl and SSB4 (granted, landing lag was on the high side in Brawl).

 

[Cpt.]

You can't be serious.

@ Cpt. When would you ever not L cancel? There is literally zero downside to it.

? You can get more damage off of multi-hit moves by not L-Canceling. Like Yoshi's DAir.

 

[Paquito]

terrible. you're saying wavedash is too complicated in one thread, now you're suggesting an incredibly counterintuitive degradation of moves.

How is it counter-intuitive from the perspective of a player new to the competitive scene? Is it any more counter-intuitive than successive hits of the same move doing less damage than the initial hit?

Make nice but fast animations.

Problem solved..

That's impossible to do at the current speed of l-canceled recoveries.

Standardize landing lag to be their L-Cancelled rates, clean up the animations, and remove L-Cancelling. Kind of like what those other Smash games did... you know, Brawl and SSB4 (granted, landing lag was on the high side in Brawl).

That would work. But SSB4 recovery is still slower than Project M, and that speed isn't something we want to sacrifice

You can't be serious.

This is something good game developers take into consideration, and it's something Nintendo excels at.

 

[Fortress]

? You can get more damage off of multi-hit moves by not L-Canceling. Like Yoshi's DAir.

You can get more damage off of a combo by L-Cancelling, grabbing, doing anything else. Or something along those lines. Yes, you can get more damage off of the one move, but in L-Cancelling you are able to act into your other moves faster, allowing for longer combos. If everything landed at the L-Cancelled rate normally, things would still be fine.

 

[Cpt.]

You can get more damage off of a combo by L-Cancelling, grabbing, doing anything else. Or something along those lines. Yes, you can get more damage off of the one move, but in L-Cancelling you are able to act into your other moves faster, allowing for longer combos. If everything landed at the L-Cancelled rate normally, things would still be fine.

Sometimes the hit stun is enough off of a move to still combo after.

 

[Foo]

? You can get more damage off of multi-hit moves by not L-Canceling. Like Yoshi's DAir.

Uh, no. That's not true. You get more damage off a multihit move if you don't FAST FALL l-cancel it. Even if you don't fast fall, it's still better to L-Cancel.

This is something good game developers take into consideration, and it's something Nintendo excels at.

Are you seriously suggesting that a minor animation improvement takes precedence over game design? Function>form

 

[l3thargy]

Like I said just make a option in the settings that toggles auto l-canceling and call it a day, everyone wins.

 

[Cpt.]

Like I said just make a option in the settings that toggles auto l-canceling and call it a day, everyone wins.

That could work. Maybe they could also just L-Cancel each move differently?

 

[l3thargy]

That could work. Maybe they could also just L-Cancel each move differently?

Yeah maybe have a setting in the menu that makes it so when you go to choose your character, there's a toggle by your character's portrait that allows you to switch between the two options, idk if that is something that's possible but if so why not have it.

 

[Fortress]

Sometimes the hit stun is enough off of a move to still combo after.

Only sometimes though. L-Cancelling is always a good option, which is why you should just do it always by default. Not sure what's so hard about that. Brawl and 4 are doing that, and every other fighter in the universe does that.

 

[Paquito]

Are you seriously suggesting that a minor animation improvement takes precedence over game design? Function>form

What you're calling a "minor animation improvement" is a pretty significant part of the experience for people that are casually enjoying the game. Again, the fact that Nintendo pays attention to stuff like this is why their games can carry even their worst-designed consoles

Anyway, Fortress' suggestion that landing lag be normalized and brought to Sm4sh levels wouldn't necessarily hurt the game design. It would just reduce the overall speed of the game.

 

[HalcyonDays]

I've always felt L-cancelling was very much like breathing in an actual real life physical fight. Real life fighters must learn to breath correctly after every punch or kick, right?

"The way that you breath is going to affect the way that you punch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDHE6fV9_dE#t=60

In other words, it takes a bit of dedication and training to learn to breath effectively. If you don't do it effectively and consistently, it could end up causing you to slow down, due to your body not getting enough air, or because you're holding on to too much air after a certain movement.

It's the same with L cancelling. It takes a bit of dedication and training to learn to L-cancel effectively. If you don't do it effectively and consistently, it could end up causing your movement to slow down.

It's just another way for players to get more into a 'fighter's mentality.'

That's how I look at it anyways, and I hope it stays in PM. I definitely wouldn't mind future smash games having this mechanic again either.

 

[Fortress]

I've always felt L-cancelling was very much like breathing in an actual real life physical fight. Real life fighters must learn to breath correctly after every punch or kick, right?

"The way that you breath is going to affect the way that you punch."

In other words, it takes a bit of dedication and training to learn to breath effectively. If you don't do it effectively, it could end up causing you to slow down, due to your body not getting enough air, or because you're holding on to too much air after a certain movement.

It's the same with L cancelling. It takes a bit of dedication and training to learn to L-cancel effectively. If you don't do it effectively, it could end up causing your movement to slow down.

It's just another way for players to get more into a 'fighter's mentality.'

That's how I look at it anyways, and I hope it stays in PM. I definitely wouldn't mind future smash games having this mechanic again either.

None of that means **** in a game. In a game you want the most accessible, consistent tools available to put everybody on as much an even playing field as possible. You could just the same have fast-paced movement and tight control if everybody landed at their L-Cancelled rates anyway.

 

[Altanic]

If we remove l-cancelling and give everybody standardized lag, what happens to combos, and the fast pace of PM? If we remove l-cancelling and give everyone l-cancelled-speed recoveries, what happens to punishes when there's and open window due to someone missing the cancel?

 

[HalcyonDays]

None of that means **** in a game. In a game you want the most accessible, consistent tools available to put everybody on as much an even playing field as possible. You could just the same have fast-paced movement and tight control if everybody landed at their L-Cancelled rates anyway.

Hm, I don't know. I think the comparison of real life breathing techniques in fighting and L-Cancelling in a fighting game works rather well, in my opinion.

Sure, it is just a game, but it's just one of the aspects that help me feel like I'm actually in a fight, without needing to be in a real fight. I do a bit of actual fighting in real life, and learning to control my breathing is one of those things that fighters need to be able to do consistently. It takes training, and effort, but in the end, you're much better off with it than without it. L-cancelling helps me get into that same mindset, sort of an almost 'zen'-ish state of mind, if you will.

Personally, I love being able to be more absorbed in a game, it's part of the reason I play, so I can escape reality for a bit. The more immersive the game feels to me, the better the experience I'll have. If L-Cancelling can help me get into this mindset, I say keep it.

Another reason is because it adds another mental layer on top of the one I previously mentioned about having a fighter's mentality.

If you ever find yourself a very serious fight, with a lot on the line, it's very easy to forget basic techniques like breathing and such. The person who can still retain their skills despite the added mental pressure can definitely benefit from it. The same goes with L-Cancelling, in a match with high stakes, it takes a certain kind of mental strength to be able to remember to do it. It's not just something that'll reward players with another physical requirement, but also a mental one.

In the end, I like L-Cancelling because it helps immerse me more into a fighter's mindset. Even though it's just a game, I want it to be an experience as well.

 

[Fortress]

If we remove l-cancelling and give everybody standardized lag, what happens to combos, and the fast pace of PM? If we remove l-cancelling and give everyone l-cancelled-speed recoveries, what happens to punishes when there's and open window due to someone missing the cancel?

Nothing happens if you make every move land as quickly as they are L-Cancelled by default since everybody is L-Cancelling anyway. Windows for punishment should be opened because the player chose a sub-optimal choice in poking or approaching, not because they missed some arbitrary button input. Street Fighter, for example, has standardized landing lag and you see combos there, so saying that standardized landing lag would get rid of combos is incorrect since everybody is doing it anyway.

Punishment doesn't happen just because somebody misses the input on their L-Cancel. Think a little deeper before trying to approach a topic like this.

If you ever find yourself a very serious fight, with a lot on the line, it's very easy to forget basic techniques like breathing and such. The person who can still retain their skills despite the added mental pressure can definitely benefit from it. The same goes with L-Cancelling, in a match with high stakes, it takes a certain kind of mental strength to be able to remember to do it. It's not just something that'll reward players with another physical requirement, but also a mental one.

Fight games =/= real life, and I'm not sure why I even need to point this out. I'm not sure why you're even comparing them. Go talk to the loser of any grand final of any major tournament in Smash, Street Fighter, Injustice, BlazBlue (I don't care which game, really), and ask them why they think they lost. 10/10 times, I guarantee the answer is not going to be "because I forgot to L-Cancel/how to do my links/when to use my wagers/how to air-dash". You are never going to see anybody that's not some beginner say that the reason they lost a major match is because they forgot their fundamentals. You are absolutely mistaken if you believe that, for instance, M2K came in second at the last Project M APEX event because he forgot to L-Cancel/JC grab/SHFFL/shield grab/SHL/et cetera.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Nothing happens if you make every move land as quickly as they are L-Cancelled by default since everybody is L-Cancelling anyway. Windows for punishment should be opened because the player chose a sub-optimal choice in poking or approaching, not because they missed some arbitrary button input. Street Fighter, for example, has standardized landing lag and you see combos there, so saying that standardized landing lag would get rid of combos is incorrect since everybody is doing it anyway.

Punishment doesn't happen just because somebody misses the input on their L-Cancel. Think a little deeper before trying to approach a topic like this.

I would like to make a rebuttal for the underlined portion of your statement.

While it is true that punishing can happen because of sub-optimal choices in poking/approaching, I feel as though the mental aspect of fighting and L-cancelling hasn't been given proper consideration.

Have you ever been in a high-stakes game with a lot of pressure, and ever experienced trembling fingers, perhaps due to nervousness, anxiety or anything of that sort? Notice that L-cancelling under these conditions could be more difficult due to the added mental pressure. This adds another mental layer of skill for L-cancelling.

L-cancelling correctly rewards the players who can still keep their cool despite being in a mental environment that is stressful. If you missed an L-cancel, think "Why did I miss it?" It may be because your opponent has successfully put you into an unconscious state of anxiety. Punishes are more than just poor gameplay choices, but are also the result of having mental dominance over your opponent. If you can make your opponent panic, and he misses an L-cancel due to your mental pressure on him, I think this adds some meaning to L-cancelling, and thus does not render it a mere arbitrary button input.

If you take L-cancelling away, I fear that we may be losing a portion of the mental aspect of Project M/Melee as well.

 

[smashbro29]

That's impossible to do at the current speed of l-canceled recoveries.

Every other fighter has managed to do a pretty good job of it.

 

[Leafeon]

Hylian said that Ice Climbers have something they can do with L cancelling that's special, in which they would purposely not L cancel some things. Do you hate Ice Climbers?

 

[Thor]

If we remove l-cancelling and give everybody standardized lag, what happens to combos, and the fast pace of PM? If we remove l-cancelling and give everyone l-cancelled-speed recoveries, what happens to punishes when there's and open window due to someone missing the cancel?

Nothing, and nothing, because at the highest level lag may as well be standardized per character (ie half and no l-cancelling) and those windows don't exist because Mango and PPMD and Zero and Hax don't miss L-cancels.

L-cancelling correctly rewards the players who can still keep their cool despite being in a mental environment that is stressful. If you missed an L-cancel, think "Why did I miss it?" It may be because your opponent has successfully put you into an unconscious state of anxiety. Punishes are more than just poor gameplay choices, but are also the result of having mental dominance over your opponent. If you can make your opponent panic, and he misses an L-cancel due to your mental pressure on him, I think this adds some meaning to L-cancelling, and thus does not render it a mere arbitrary button input.
If you take L-cancelling away, I fear that we may be losing a portion of the mental aspect of Project M/Melee as well.

See above. For the best, it's not mental, it's reflexive, so there is no mental aspect lost here. Mental dominance will involve poor decisions in when to wavedash (like Hbox rested an ICs player out of a wavedash once), poor moveset choice (fsmashing badly - Amsah vs Eeks or whomever those two were when the colossal collapse happened), and poor spacing, especially if baited via good movement (every spacie vs Armada in Apex 2013, but most notable in Winner's Finals, PPMD vs Armada, where PPMD is basically swinging for the fences [which is also why he went Marth in grand finals and brought it so far back]). Go to all those situations/videos - the L-cancels being messed up are non-existent, or very VERY slight, compared to the fundamentals that aren't occurring on the losing end (good spacing, patience, careful recovery? [not that often messed up, though Genesis __ Armada vs Mango the Firefox SD to end it because Mango couldn't make it], etc.). Your argument is empirically denied, and we can source out evidence from others too (PPMD vs M2K SKTAR 3 and Apex 2014, Leffen vs Mango TBH4/Apex 2014, Mango vs M2K at various places... the list goes on).

 

[Fortress]

Hylian said that Ice Climbers have something they can do with L cancelling that's special, in which they would purposely not L cancel some things. Do you hate Ice Climbers?

Actually...

 

[HalcyonDays]

Nothing, and nothing, because at the highest level lag may as well be standardized per character (ie half and no l-cancelling) and those windows don't exist because Mango and PPMD and Zero and Hax don't miss L-cancels.



See above. For the best, it's not mental, it's reflexive, so there is no mental aspect lost here. Mental dominance will involve poor decisions in when to wavedash (like Hbox rested an ICs player out of a wavedash once), poor moveset choice (fsmashing badly - Amsah vs Eeks or whomever those two were when the colossal collapse happened), and poor spacing, especially if baited via good movement (every spacie vs Armada in Apex 2013, but most notable in Winner's Finals, PPMD vs Armada, where PPMD is basically swinging for the fences [which is also why he went Marth in grand finals and brought it so far back]). Go to all those situations/videos - the L-cancels being messed up are non-existent, or very VERY slight, compared to the fundamentals that aren't occurring on the losing end (good spacing, patience, careful recovery? [not that often messed up, though Genesis __ Armada vs Mango the Firefox SD to end it because Mango couldn't make it], etc.). Your argument is empirically denied, and we can source out evidence from others too (PPMD vs M2K SKTAR 3 and Apex 2014, Leffen vs Mango TBH4/Apex 2014, Mango vs M2K at various places... the list goes on).

I would like to argue that it's because those players have reached a level of mental control that allows them to remain calm and in turn allows them to overcome the hurdles that L-cancelling in stressful situations presents. For those who aren't as good, L-cancelling still has the aspects of mental control and dominance over your opponent I had presented earlier. It may be far more prevalent in these cases, since these players aren't the best of the best. Once players have mastered these aspects of controlling their mental calm and projecting panic onto their opponents, causing input errors and such, then they can be considered to have entered the higher echelons of competition. It's another way to separate the good from the greats, in a way that isn't just about a supposed arbitrary push of the button, but also because they've reached a level of mental calm that most other players haven't.

The aspects you brought up of poor decisions in: when to wavedash, poor moveset choice, and poor spacing, etc; I feel all represent more strategic aspects of the game, rather than mental dominance and pressure, especially since all of the aspects you brought up would still be there regardless of whether or not L-cancelling still exists within the game. A player may have perfect control over their emotions in a fight and yet still make poor strategic decisions in when to wavedash, spacing, etc. L-cancelling would represent the opposite, where it's not so much strategic, as it is an emotional hurdle to overcome. You mention that L-cancel input failures have a 'very VERY slight' effect in high-level play, but I feel that even these small moments can be very decisive should the situation call for it.

 

[Thor]

I would like to argue that it's because those players have reached a level of mental control that allows them to remain calm and in turn allows them to overcome the hurdles that L-cancelling in stressful situations presents. For those who aren't as good, L-cancelling still has the aspects of mental control and dominance over your opponent I had presented earlier. It may be far more prevalent in these cases, since these players aren't the best of the best. Once players have mastered these aspects of controlling their mental calm and projecting panic onto their opponents, causing input errors and such, then they can be considered to have entered the higher echelons of competition. It's another way to separate the good from the greats, in a way that isn't just about a supposed arbitrary push of the button, but also because they've reached a level of mental calm that most other players haven't.

The aspects you brought up of poor decisions in: when to wavedash, poor moveset choice, and poor spacing, etc; I feel all represent more strategic aspects of the game, rather than mental dominance and pressure, especially since all of the aspects you brought up would still be there regardless of whether or not L-cancelling still exists within the game. A player may have perfect control over their emotions in a fight and yet still make poor strategic decisions in when to wavedash, spacing, etc. L-cancelling would represent the opposite, where it's not so much strategic, as it is an emotional hurdle to overcome. You mention that L-cancel input failures have a 'very VERY slight' effect in high-level play, but I feel that even these small moments can be very decisive should the situation call for it.

You'd like to? Sorry, you can't. Request denied.

Sarcastic comments aside, strategic failings are part of keeping your cool. Hitting an arbitrary input shouldn't be.

 

[Paquito]

Every other fighter has managed to do a pretty good job of it.

You're confusing "other fighters have done a good job with this" with "other fighters have standardized extremely quick landing animations".

The fighters that have standardized extremely quick animations don't have good landing animations. Which is fine, because they purely target the fighting game community demographic. Smash Brother's is designed for a larger group than that.

You'd like to? Sorry, you can't. Request denied.

Sarcastic comments aside, strategic failings are part of keeping your cool. Hitting an arbitrary input shouldn't be.

You guys are arguing past each-other. You're talking about l-canceling as a game play decision, he's talking about l-canceling as a sign of technical proficiency and consistency. They're two different topics, and both have been covered up-thread.

 

[Altanic]

Nothing happens if you make every move land as quickly as they are L-Cancelled by default since everybody is L-Cancelling anyway. Windows for punishment should be opened because the player chose a sub-optimal choice in poking or approaching, not because they missed some arbitrary button input. Street Fighter, for example, has standardized landing lag and you see combos there, so saying that standardized landing lag would get rid of combos is incorrect since everybody is doing it anyway.

Punishment doesn't happen just because somebody misses the input on their L-Cancel. Think a little deeper before trying to approach a topic like this.

Sorry I should've clarified on my first question. I saw someone earlier mention making the endlag normal, like how it already is if you don't l-cancel. I think that if that happens, the window for followups is now smaller because more time is spent recovering. Characters with higher endlag now have more limited options.

While it is true that everyone attempts to l-cancel at all times, you don't always get it. And I agree that that is one way to punish somebody.
I understand where you are coming from with the reference to Street Fighter, but Smash combos do not work like Street Fighter. I never said that standardizing lag would remove combos. I asked 2 questions. The thing about standardized lag was what I meant in my first paragraph above, so that was my fault.

Punishment does not only happen because you miss and l-cancel, and I never said it did. But even if we remove it and give everybody half lag, we remove an option of punishment, and I'm always hearing about how Smash is a game of options.

And dude, "think a little deeper before you approach a topic like this" was rude and uncalled for. I only asked 2 questions, I didn't even make a point until now.

Nothing, and nothing, because at the highest level lag may as well be standardized per character (ie half and no l-cancelling) and those windows don't exist because Mango and PPMD and Zero and Hax don't miss L-cancels.

That's a fair point. The only thing I can really say to that, is that not everybody plays on the level of Top 5, so those windows do still exist in regular play especially at high pressure if people can't keep their cool.

 

[Paquito]

*snip*

You guys are arguing past each-other. You're talking about l-canceling as a game play decision, he's talking about l-canceling as a sign of technical proficiency and consistency. They're two different topics, and both have been covered up-thread.

 

[Fortress]

I think that if that happens, the window for followups is now smaller because more time is spent recovering. Characters with higher endlag now have more limited options.

The opposite of that happens. As a matter-of-fact, what happens when characters land at L-Cancelled rates by default is what is already happening in competitive-level play. Nothing of value is lost.

While it is true that everyone attempts to l-cancel at all times, you don't always get it. And I agree that that is one way to punish somebody.

Nobody's going to disagree with that, but it shouldn't be on the player to limit opportunities for punishment that are presented at all times because of poor game design.

I understand where you are coming from with the reference to Street Fighter, but Smash combos do not work like Street Fighter.

Performing them does not, but the system of a 'combination' remains exactly the same; attacking your opponent with a string of successive attacks before they are out of hitstun. Different topic, but the point is that standardized landing lag does nothing to take away from the combos of this game. Don't dodge around that with something like 'I get what you mean, but', because all I'm going to take from that is 'yes, I understand what you mean'. You either get it or you do not.

Punishment does not only happen because you miss and l-cancel, and I never said it did. But even if we remove it and give everybody half lag, we remove an option of punishment, and I'm always hearing about how Smash is a game of options.

This is not unique to Smash. The interaction between the two players and their choices always presents a degree of opportunity for the other side to choose their own counterattack. You don't remove an option of punishment by making L-Cancelled rates standard. L-Cancelling as a mechanic is just a sloppy mechanic that shouldn't be considered an option for punishment since you by all accounts should always choose to perform it.

If that's not clear enough, imagine this. A mechanic that involves the use of the Down input on the dPad, and if you do not input Down on the dPad every time your character comes to a stop, you take 100% damage. Would you not always choose to go through with that needless input? Having a forced, sloppily-designed mechanic that is always meant to be used 100% of the time for 100% optimal play is not something that presents an option for your opponent. It is not an option for you to take 100% damage for not pressing a button, it is poor design.

And dude, "think a little deeper before you approach a topic like this" was rude and uncalled for. I only asked 2 questions, I didn't even make a point until now.

I don't care. If you're going to come in and talk about why an arbitrary button input like the "Press me to not take 100% damage" is a good mechanic that is necessary for deep, top-level play, then expect me to tear you down.

That's a fair point. The only thing I can really say to that, is that not everybody plays on the level of Top 5, so those windows do still exist in regular play especially at high pressure if people can't keep their cool.

That's only on the fault of the player's who don't have their game together enough to nail the input as often as possible, which should be 100% of the time. You getting punished for missing an L-Cancel has nothing to do with your opponent's level of skill, which is part of the reason that it is such a ****ty mechanic. You should be punished when you choose an option that is not the optimal option for the situation you are in. Not L-Cancelling is not an 'option'. Sure, you can decide not to do it for whatever backwards reasons you might have, but what did you gain for your 'option'?

 

[MagnesD3]

I also agree l canceling should be removed since there is no real thought or strategy behind it but simply an arbitrary skill barrier that isnt even a high skill barrier, its more just a questionable mechanic altogether and honestly should be removed. (even if its kinda fun)

 

[PootisKonga]

The only reason I would be for L-Cancelling is because, like wavedashing, it is a sort of weak barrier towards improving play. From my experience, once I learned those two simple things I started wanting to learn more about what I had considered "competitive" smash tech. But other than that (which is a very weak reason) L-Cancelling as-is is pretty much just an extra button press to not suck.

Design-wise it's stupid, but keeping it in could open doors for players who would otherwise take PM as a game where everyone but them moves like Sonic. Just telling them how to L-Cancel and recommending they practice helps them get into the technical aspects of the game since it is the simplest to learn.

 

[Foo]

. It's another way to separate the good from the greats, in a way that isn't just about a supposed arbitrary push of the button, but also because they've reached a level of mental calm that most other players haven't.

It doesn't separate the good from the greats, it separates the bads from the people who actually put time into the game. Speaking as a good, but far far far from great tournament player, L-Canceling is something I only miss occasionally and it has no correlation to how nervous I am. I also almost never see other good players missing L-Cancels.

You don't have to look at top level play, just standard tournament play, to see that L-Canceling is done every time.

 

[MagnesD3]

The only reason I would be for L-Cancelling is because, like wavedashing, it is a sort of weak barrier towards improving play. From my experience, once I learned those two simple things I started wanting to learn more about what I had considered "competitive" smash tech. But other than that (which is a very weak reason) L-Cancelling as-is is pretty much just an extra button press to not suck.

Design-wise it's stupid, but keeping it in could open doors for players who would otherwise take PM as a game where everyone but them moves like Sonic. Just telling them how to L-Cancel and recommending they practice helps them get into the technical aspects of the game since it is the simplest to learn.

Wave dashing for different distances has strategic value, L canceling has no strategic value and variability but is simply an execution barrier that has no reason for existing.

 

[PootisKonga]

Wave dashing for different distances has strategic value, L canceling has no strategic value and variability but is simply an execution barrier that has no reason for existing.

I never said I supported L-Cancelling, only that it is something newer players could learn so they get motivated into doing better. As a mechanic, you are right in that it shouldn't exist, but removing it would feel weird (though manageable) since it was the very first thing most people learned

 

[Paquito]

What if l-canceling is automatically applied only if a fast-fall is in effect?

It seems like it addresses everyone's concerns

- l-canceling as the "always right decision" is removed
- (some) technical skill is still required to trigger an l-cancel
- normal landing animations are retained when not fast falling, maintaining the current experience for casual players

 

[Fortress]

There are plenty of techniques worth practicing. One technique being gone removes itself, and the SHFFL (or at least a portion of it).

 

[Foo]

What if l-canceling is automatically applied only if a fast-fall is in effect?

It seems like it addresses everyone's concerns

- l-canceling as the "always right decision" is removed
- (some) technical skill is still required to trigger an l-cancel
- normal landing animations are retained when not fast falling, maintaining the current experience for casual players

That makes the tech EVEN MORE ANNOYING to do, and it also nerfs multihit moves for no reason. Also, it will still always be the right move on almost every single aerial in the game, with only slight exception. Maybe on yoshis down air, you wouldn't want to sometimes, but otherwise, nothing changes.

@ Fortress I don't think shffling gets much easier with the removal of L-canceling. It's still a tricky tech to learn.