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Improve your gameplay! - Mario Peer Review

dookdigity

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
478
Location
Mesa, Arizona
"In order to build your meta game you must first break it down." - Someone?

Do you need help with your gameplay? Keep getting caught in traps, mindgames, falling short every match, or feel your gameplay is almost perfect? If you answered yes to any of these questions then you have come to the right place.

This thread is here to seek help from fellow Mario players with your meta game.

How this thread works:

1. Introduce yourself, how long you have played Project M, and why you play Mario.

2. Post a link to a video of your Mario in action.

3. Mention what you think your game needs and how you believe you can go about changing it.

4. Receive honest input from other members of this thread.

5. Take any advice into consideration and practice what they preach.

6. Provide updates on your improvements and thanks to anyone who helped your game.

7. Offer suggestions to make this thread better.


Warning: posting in here will expose your gameplay. Don't expect any sugar-coated critiques or suggestions. Have an open mind and be sure to have fun.
 

dookdigity

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
478
Location
Mesa, Arizona
Since I am the first to suggest this I will have the first stone cast my way and offer a video of my Mario in action from last night.

My name is Mike, but I go by the gamertag "dookdigity". I have been playing Project M seriously for about a month. I am deep rooted in Smash 64, so all the mechanics of Melee are new to me. I chose to play as Mario because be feels a little like Mario in Smash64. He also can combo pretty well and has quick aerial attacks.

1st match vs Ivysaur

2nd match vs Ivysaur

3rd match vs Ivysaur

I have a really hard time approaching in this game. I need more time to understand all the characters movesets and opening moves for links and combos.

It is hard to know what to expect at this time. I get caught making aggressive approaches with NAir and landing right in front of my opponent, leaving me exposed for grabs or whatever they want to do.

I will leave it at that. Feel free to offer suggestions and your own videos. Thanks!
 

Solharath

[ZTD] CEO
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
1,603
Location
North Muskegon, Michigan
Quick things I noticed in this matchup: You don't crouch cancel, which really can stifle Ivysaur's options against you(namely: everything that doesn't end in Smash). Ivy's Dtilt gets wrecked by proper crouch cancelling, even when properly spaced.

Baiscally the big thing in this matchup was not you being KO'd, but every stock lost was you basically SD'ing from a wild and failed attempt to edgeguard Ivy. Learn how to WallJump out of UpB, as it would have saved every SD(and I think your last stock still had a double jump...?). As for approaching, camp a little with fireballs and caping Ivy's razor lead and then go in with a short hop dair. Most times that's enough for the move to poke through shields(especially, apparently, if you Reverse Aerial Rush it).

Another thing you need to know about Ivy's recovery is that it's still as substandard as it was in Brawl. Grab the edge and force an Up-B. Ivy has two options then, neither very good. If Ivysaur tries to snap to the edge immediately, just let go of the edge as soon as she's airborne and punish the ledgehop, but look out for Dair. Alternatively, just let go and Nair/Bair if predict a snap to the ledge, as Ivy will eat your attack before she latches unto the ledge.

However, if she decides to grab the ledge and hang there, that puts her in a worse position than before, but she might try to do so if you try to force a Bair, then she just needs to wait until the hitbox is gone and snap safely to the edge. Bair is a good option for when she instantly tries to snap to the edge, and it can almost always guarantee the kill at mid-high percentages, but Nair is the safer option. It lasts awhile, so if she snaps to the edge she'll hit the strong hit, and if she let's herself hang limply below you, the weak hit box will get her and you'll be able to act out of it long before she can to punish or reset yourself on the edge. Mario has good options all around here because of his UpB to walljump covering a large majority of his potential mistakes on many stages.

Outside of that, you have a really solid on stage game from what I've seen, although I spent most of the game trying to put my finger on the song(some sort of TMNT/Dare to Be Stupid remix? I heard a lot of "My Toe!").

See, you kinda use the Bair here to edgeguard, but you let Ivy return to the edge uncontested. When an opponent is getting back to the edge, you're either waiting until they're low, or you're managing the air if they recover high. If they're low, you grab the edge, or you fireball. Fireball has great trajectory and, against Ivysaur, it wrecks her recovery even more.

Something that you're not doing is cape stalling, and in some cases you're throwing out attacks that really have no hope of ever connecting. One big showcase of both these problems is how you lost your first stock. You threw out a fireball instead of focusing your momentum back to the stage, and you didn't cape to aid your recovery(it would have got you close enough to the stage to grab the ledge for sure).

Second stock: Throwing yourself out there wildly again and got gimped(could have walljumped out of UpB). Mario almost never needs to do this to the degree you're doing. Just fireball until they're close, then nab the edge. Against most characters, you can let Cape do most of the work for you.

Third Stock: Uair is really more of a low-mid percent combo tool or a 'get off me' in the air move than a kill move. Right off the bat you had a kill situation with either bair or nair and you went for Uair. You almost got gimped again trying roughly what I said after the first video, but you're overextending yourself too much. Ivysaur has to lock on to the ledge, so that's where your bair should be - on the edge. There is no need to try and catch her in midair. Also, when Ivy gets that last string to end your life when you were on the edge, she was spaced far enough away that there was no need to try to ledge-attack back on stage. Ledgejump's a bad idea here too, but ledgestand or DJ>Waveland would have been highly applicable, instead of highly punishable. Also, you went to attack with UpB. While I like the style, it just isn't as useful as it was in Brawl as an attack move.

Last stock: While some people on the boards have said that they don't hate it when they attack with DownB, it's still a pretty poor idea, especially without platforms around you to pop up an opponent onto. Also, Seed Bomb is a great move, and it's even better when Mario capes it against an unsuspecting Ivysaur and gets a free FSmash. I've killed an Ivysaur at 30% by caping a seedbomb just as Ivysaur used it in mid-air. The combination of increased knockback and the fact that Cape increased vertical momentum is a near instant killer. Just something to keep in mind.

Your approach game really starts to suffer here as the Ivysaur player has really got in your head at this point.

Stop Bairing so much. It's a mildly good poke and does nice damage, but at low-mid percents you would have seen much better results from uair juggling and strings.

Oh, THERE'S an UpB Walljump. I'm questioning why we haven't seen more of it. Also, that first stock death... was pretty lulzy. I even heard the FSmash go off and Ivy just nabs you and Bthrows you. You gotta learn how to DI better, that was probably survivable with Upwards DI. Aaaand there goes the second stock. Again, walljump UpB, cape stall, even Down B would have helped right here. Mario has options here, it's not like Smash64(even though DownB was still a thing back then).

Again, DI would have likely moved Mario away from that Solarbeam to finish, and there was no crouchcancelling that I was aware of. Another thing I noticed is that nothing looked like predictions that whole fight. Fighting reactively is a good trait on the move, but there were plenty of spots that you could have slowed down and really given Ivy a hard time by baiting reactions and just waiting to strike. It was most noticable with your DSmashes, as you were rushing them out so quickly. Just wait, bait the roll(Ivy was pretty consistantly just dodgerolling your DSmash), and just pivot Dsmash or walk and ftilt(Or, stutterstep Fmash, which I never saw used).

....That's my two cents, anyway.
 

dookdigity

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
478
Location
Mesa, Arizona
Awesome advice! Everything you said I agree with. There is a lot of room to improve.

I will read and reread and put into practice everything you said.

There is another Smash Tournament in two weeks. I will post update videos on this.

Thanks again!

About the song: I got it from Okami's song list. I used it because of TMNT4. Not sure about Dare to be Stupid. Loved that game.
 

BlackDr.Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
31
Location
Delaware
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMzbacQhRE

Played a set against a Ness last night. Starting to get a little better, but know my Mario lacks in certain areas. Any suggestions?
Given I use both Mario and Ness, I'll throw in my input of suggestion . You know Ness Players are well rounded for close and far range combat so you have to be on your Ps and Qs for all he does.

First Match: Given Mario is a much better close range character, you have to go in, but under a wall of attack before you can get in. Incorporate mind games like running past the opponent. The confusion will create lapses of thought to your opponent and more openings to attack. Floor Teching: When You get hit by a Dair (on stage), dont worry so much about the damage of fact you were hit, but tech the floor and roll away from Ness, delaying any further combos that may ensue. Both characters are great aerial characters, however all Ness aerials have great knockback in comparison to yours and its wiser to wait for him to come down, or be above him. PK Thunder is easily caped and Uair has a second of activation, giving you time to evade it. Also, proper placement gives the chance for a good Fair. Other than that, solid gameplay (and how do you get that version of Smashville?)

Second Match: You did great the first 3 stocks, but that last stock... you rushed in way too hard. Ness has an attack for every range. As such, rushing in, you're bound to get hit with them. Proper spacing and knowing youre opponents strengths and weaknesses would probably have told you not to do what happened. Now alot of that was just a good combo. On the other hand, Ness threw out a PK Fire every 10 seconds... at some point you have to learn the habits of the players and work around them. You were shielding and caping fine before. Waveshield, or wavedash backwards out of range and slide back forward. Another mind game suggestion: Jump and then Waveland forward. Be precautious with long range players.

Last Match: Spot Dodging is frowned upon for many characters, however Mario is not one of them. What really got you was how Ness has one of, if the strongest back throws in the game, having the eyesight and reaction time to not only see and avoid will save you in crucal moments such as that. Not to mention it creates an opening! You still didnt learn your opponents habits and so you were hit with alot of the same combos or everything had the same end result. Also DI would help alot and more crouch cancelling.

You should learn more of Mario's dynamics and create more strategic approaches. Learn mini combos like Mario's slide to U-Tilt to Uair and whatever attack you deem necesary given the opponents DI. You improved a bit over the last critic because I saw you use the Up-B to walljump as they suggested. Keep Playing!! :D
 

BlackDr.Mario

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
31
Location
Delaware
I also want to have my videos reviewed, however I know two of my issues already and its because I havent mastered it. Issue one is that I cannot wavedash/waveland on command. I've seen AlphaZealot's video on youtube and even have all 3 saved on a playlist. Issue two is that I cant find better players to play with an so I've reached a plateau where I cant see how to improve based on battle experience on the grounds of a lack of better people to gain experience from. With that, I'll be posting videos of me doing sets soon within 3 days
 

BryE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
335
Location
NC, Winterville
NNID
ChaserTech
Yo guys. One of my friend plays Mario and I was wondering if you could help him out with his gameplay.


He's a pretty decent and he picked up Project M when it came out. Although he doesn't really play competitively since he likes playing Brawl more. I play him pretty frequently so I normally get a lot of hard reads on him.

Feel free to critique his matches though. Help is really appreciated. :]




*new* Date of vid(s): April 6th 2013*new*

Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Ike)



Date of vid(s): February 16th 2013

Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Wolf)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Snake)



Date of vid(s): February 10th 2013

Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Wario)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (DK)
 

BryE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
335
Location
NC, Winterville
NNID
ChaserTech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U1DCE9y2E8

here's a vid of me vs eggz lucario

doin some experiments in the set so don't mind all the cape edgegaurds hahaha i'd say 80% of those would've been better if they'd been just simple back airs or something XD

Awesome combo at 5:38 in the second match. lol

Also what are your thoughts about Mario in general? I was kinda surprised that you picked him up since I never seen you use Mario before.
 

Gimpyfish62

Banned (62 points)
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
12,297
Location
Edmonds, Washington
I've tinkered with Mario as a tertiary of mine for a few years (ever since quitting actual competitive melee in about 2008 i've picked up a couple characters)

i really like mario in this game, although I don't think he's on the stronger side of characters. I think that his combo game is pretty solid and his neutral game is poor for a game full of such speedy characters.

I feel like mario has a TON of neutral matchups, and very few that are advantaged to him if any, and a few bad matchups. The bad matchups, unfortunately, are also important matchups.
 

BryE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
335
Location
NC, Winterville
NNID
ChaserTech
I've tinkered with Mario as a tertiary of mine for a few years (ever since quitting actual competitive melee in about 2008 i've picked up a couple characters)

i really like mario in this game, although I don't think he's on the stronger side of characters. I think that his combo game is pretty solid and his neutral game is poor for a game full of such speedy characters.

I feel like mario has a TON of neutral matchups, and very few that are advantaged to him if any, and a few bad matchups. The bad matchups, unfortunately, are also important matchups.
I can agree with Mario having loads of even matchups. The main characters who stick out in terms of giving Mario a really harsh time are Marth, Fox, Falco, Puff. Mario is just a well rounded character who can deal with a lot of situations. However even though he's a balanced character, he doesn't really excel at anything.
He's just "kinda good" at most things.
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
1,485
Location
Here
The thing he's more than 'kind of' good at is locking people down. (Combo game/edge-game/all the stuff people mention that he's 'good' at lead to this)
Hence he'll have difficulties in the neutral game/with speed/be fairly neutral due to the way he can lock even the difficulties down if he gets that 'chance'

BryE, I only watched the first 2 on the list you made, but there are some pretty simple things you could easily point out to your friend while you're playing.
Simple things like shield-grabbing, I won't touch on, though he did a few of these little things so just keep watch and mention them if he ever tries too often.
Edit: This includes things like the unneeded use of all his recovery resources when he can simply UpB half way through his DJ to reach the edge quickly and safely.

He's not nearly grounded enough with the character. He probably spent more time mid-full-hop than he did on the ground in the Fox match, and the sequences where he remained grounded in the Ike match is where he did best. Every once in a while he would DJ over you, or end up on a platform for a lengthy time accomplishing nothing. This is very apparent in the Ike vid, so take a look at this in that vid if you like.
Another very apparent thing in both matches (it came out stronger against Ike as well) is his tendency to jab after nearly any close-quarters action. Roll > Jab. Fsmash > Jab. Aerial on a shield > Jab. Sometimes this results in a Jab > DSmash, and this likely reinforces him to keep doing it, but it's probably more reflexive than he's aware. This is a common thing for Mario players, or anyone with a good Jab in that sense.
Against quicker characters, he goes into another form of panic mode. Lots of this results in falling aerials after being combo'd, or the Full Hops he kept doing, as if trying to escape the Fox DDing.
For starters, get him to work on WDing OOS. On a more specific-to-him level, when he did NOT commit to these long aerials is when he did well. Small sequences are littered throughout (a SH Bair well spaced when you were near the edge, that he unfortunately followed with a Fsmash from panicking at you not getting hit/moving) but all too often he's occupied with things he doesn't HAVE to do... like Jumping around in fear.
Perhaps, get him to translate his Jabs into Dashing away (into a DD/read the situation game), including things like when he spaces an aerial, to take that as a non-ideal situation. That way, when he wiffs something, instead of Fsmash, Jab, or Full Hopping, he'll DD away/use the wiff as bait and challenge with another quick rising aerial/WD OOS.
He's afraid from getting into any mildly defensive position, so he's avoiding 'clusters' or 'scrims'... yet he's playing Mario, who tends to thrive in those climates. With this, he's not really trying any form of Bait beyond things followed by Smash attacks, or trying to anticipate a punish on a feint with a challenge to it.

Hope some of that helps, but he's doing fine, really. Just could use some friendly reminders and tips from you along the way.
He seems to simply fear shielding, and a lot of that might stem from not knowing how to use it well (maneuver with it/get out of it/approach with it) and that's resulting in him panicking into the air or trying to grab out of it or not shield well-spaced attacks at ALL. This is normal, and simple to get through, so keep encouraging him to work on that.

You shine-grab with Fox, so kudos to you for not neglecting that. Helps to have someone to play who applies a lot of tools to their game, but try to figure out what he could do to beat you, and get him to do that, you'll improve from it too.

:)
 

Squartle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
84
dookdigity, I don't really have anything to offer in terms of Mario gameplay advice - I came here to see what I could learn, actually - but in those matches against Ivysaur, what was the song playing on Wario Ware? I needs it.
 

magicmanfk

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
22
Location
Champaign, IL
NNID
froseu
Hello everyone! My name is Tofu, and I have been playing project M since it came out- in Melee I mained Doc but wanted to main Bowser (because Bowser is awesome), so when Project M came out I started with Bowser but am now getting back in the Mario groove. I really liked doc because he was one of the few characters that movement felt very natural for me- I could incorporate wding into my game much easier than with any other character. The first smash tourney I went to was SMYM in Champaign just recently which was a blast and I'm looking to do better next time (that was where I learned that it would be good to have a backup to bowser). Here's a vid of my mario versus my Project M play buddy (who mains peach but is picking up lucas):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9uOEKmpdJM&feature=youtu.be

One thing I know I need to work on is short hopped up airs- I realize that they are very important to his gameplay but I never got the hang of c sticking, and it's tough for me to shuffle uairs with just the analog stick. I'm guessing that there's combos I end with nair that I might be able to combo into a grab with an l canceled uair. To fix this I need to be more conscious of it and start c sticking more.

Would love any input! And if more videos are desired I can scrounge some up. If you have any tips for my friend to play against Mario better that would be great too, as the better he does against me the better I'll get!
 

Raccoon Chuck

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,194
Location
Chico, California
3DS FC
3437-3568-6776
magicmanfk said: "One thing I know I need to work on is short hopped up airs- I realize that they are very important to his gameplay but I never got the hang of c sticking, and it's tough for me to shuffle uairs with just the analog stick. I'm guessing that there's combos I end with nair that I might be able to combo into a grab with an l canceled uair. To fix this I need to be more conscious of it and start c sticking more."
I believe that marios best air would need to be his pm down air, it is good for appoach, combo starting, even edgeguarding. Just make sure you have good L-canceling to lessen the chance of punishment. I understand u airs good for the above, but it definitely beats it for edgeguarding.
 

Jasou

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
507
Location
Being a scrub in NorCal
Yo guys. One of my friend plays Mario and I was wondering if you could help him out with his gameplay.


He's a pretty decent and he picked up Project M when it came out. Although he doesn't really play competitively since he likes playing Brawl more. I play him pretty frequently so I normally get a lot of hard reads on him.

Feel free to critique his matches though. Help is really appreciated. :]




*new* Date of vid(s): April 6th 2013*new*

Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Ike)



Date of vid(s): February 16th 2013

Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Wolf)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Snake)



Date of vid(s): February 10th 2013

Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Blade (Fox)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (Wario)
Project M Demo v2.5b: Dr. Yogi (Mario) vs Chaser (DK)
I only had time to watch the newer ones. I liked his on stage game and recovery so I'm not really going to talk about that much since it seems like he knows what to do and how to improve there. imo: he should try grabbing more because Mario's throw combos are really great and can lead into easy fairs(I saw him try it, but he missed). His backthrow is also really good for setting up edge guards. I also feel he should use more fireballs, but now there's even more reason to use them since he can act faster out of them in 2.6(ik these clips were 2.5b, I felt they were good even then). In 2.6 they are really nice because you can hit confirm easier into fair and other things with them if your opponent fails to deal with them. He's on a great start though.
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 18, 2012
Messages
413
"In order to build your meta game you must first break it down." - Someone?

Do you need help with your gameplay? Keep getting caught in traps, mindgames, falling short every match, or feel your gameplay is almost perfect? If you answered yes to any of these questions then you have come to the right place.

This thread is here to seek help from fellow Mario players with your meta game.

How this thread works:

1. Introduce yourself, how long you have played Project M, and why you play Mario.

2. Post a link to a video of your Mario in action.

3. Mention what you think your game needs and how you believe you can go about changing it.

4. Receive honest input from other members of this thread.

5. Take any advice into consideration and practice what they preach.

6. Provide updates on your improvements and thanks to anyone who helped your game.

7. Offer suggestions to make this thread better.


Warning: posting in here will expose your gameplay. Don't expect any sugar-coated critiques or suggestions. Have an open mind and be sure to have fun.
Hey can you also put a link to my thread "The Uses of Mario." That thread shows the use of every move Mario has. Also trying to add more as the meta-game evolves.
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
Yo guys, got 2nd in a tournament last weekend going some Mario (mostly to counter Ivy, which didn't end up working). But I come with videos... so have at them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYPIlgjHLeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea_6Vik38ng
There is one match of Ness and one of ZSS, otherwise those are Mario.

I also was in a double Mario team (coined the "Caped Crusaders"), we got last but it was hella fun!
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 18, 2012
Messages
413
Yo guys, got 2nd in a tournament last weekend going some Mario (mostly to counter Ivy, which didn't end up working). But I come with videos... so have at them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYPIlgjHLeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea_6Vik38ng
There is one match of Ness and one of ZSS, otherwise those are Mario.

I also was in a double Mario team (coined the "Caped Crusaders"), we got last but it was hella fun!
I think double Mario is broken lol. How did you lose XD?
 

Nguz95

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
1,419
Location
Washington, DC
Yo guys, got 2nd in a tournament last weekend going some Mario (mostly to counter Ivy, which didn't end up working). But I come with videos... so have at them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYPIlgjHLeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea_6Vik38ng
There is one match of Ness and one of ZSS, otherwise those are Mario.

I also was in a double Mario team (coined the "Caped Crusaders"), we got last but it was hella fun!
You play Mario!!?? Your Ness is too sweet for you to be dabbling in such an uninteresting secondary... :laugh:
 

Minor Pandemic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
142
I hesitate to call this "peer review" because you're certainly a better player than me, but I've mained Mario since I picked up Smash 7 months ago (Doc in Melee), and I watched your set twice a noticed a couple things.

First, your Jab1 followups seemed limited to Dsmash and Grab. It might be worth using Jab2 as a mixup here as well. I also like to mix SH-Dair into my Jab1 followups.

Second, I noticed you FFing all of your Dairs. As I'm sure you're aware, Dair can autocancel if you start it early in your shorthop, which can expand your mixup game to include various Dair durations, as well as letting you followup the AC with a mix of Jab, Grab, Dsmash, or anything really.

Lastly, I've never played a ZSS near Oro?! quality, but I've been able to edgeguard ZSS with ledgedropped Bair fairly successfully when she's coming from fairly low. It might be something to explore.

I feel out of line even posting this when you're so good and I haven't been to tourneys, but you posted your match here so I might as well say what I observed.
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
You play Mario!!?? Your Ness is too sweet for you to be dabbling in such an uninteresting secondary... :laugh:
Hey, Mario is fun and extremely strong. I enjoy playing him (although the people I play against don't seem to enjoy fighting him), and hes a strong secondary :p
 

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
Def Marth >.>

I switch in that one... I hate it dearly.

btw, anyone have a critique of my earlier videos? I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on Mario's gameplay, but I'd like others to check and see what I'm missing.
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
1,485
Location
Here
Replace this stuff with other stuff.
- Most Fireballs. (especially Dash Forward > WD Backward > Fireball repetition-without-accomplishing-anything-other-than-getting-D-Tilted/DD Grabbed)
You're not going to get anything out of zoning an opponent if you're not going for anything. Fireball to get in there/make holes, and take them, NOT for the sake of Fireballing.
SB's vid is good to watch for Fireballs that allow for opportunities. Unfortunately both players in their vid are doing the same things repeatedly as well and aren't picking up on it or adapting. Fortunately though, because of the lack of dynamics in their play and reliance on their capabilities within their limits, the entire video set is an example of the same thing over and over which is particularly directly helpful to you.
- Excessive D-Airs (Especially Full Hop Dair's asking to be Fair'd by Marth/Ivy/better aerial mobility/range stuff and losing stage control by giving up room) < guaranteed your reliance of Dair is a big part of why you hate Marth
You're not going to take away space from a character if you're giving them space by hoping they come to you, Nair instead even, it'll at least push them somewhere.
With both of these things, watch some vids of how others use these tools. You're relying on things within the limits of your play and not going beyond them, just like SB and everyone else. When you + SB + every Mario is literally playing the exact same character, and rarely branching into each others dynamics of how to use the tools you're all given aside from some basic WD Dmash/Dthrow > Fair stuff, it will be of value to attempt utilizing the different maneuvers and MANARISMS of different players with those same tools.
You do what you do for a reason.
SB does what he does for a reason.
Everyone does everything they do for a reason.
All of it works some of the time, find what that time is and use it, all the rest, take it out.
Chances are, somebody does something in those 'not-working-for-you' times that you can incorperate.
Purpose of vids. Use them, it will help you.

Replace a lot of stuff with this stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea_6Vik38ng#t=1m32s
The 1 second there, with the whole shielding thing, Wavedashing out, and punishing.
Do that. It works especially well against players who are just throwing things out they way you are 'because they can' and especially if you've established (conciously or not) that you play that kind of game.

Pull back, take a break, and block every single one of those all-too-obvious patterns the player is throwing out. Whether it's Leaf > Fair/Dtilt or Blaster > Nair/SideB, the things people do in these given vids are the same minute 1 of the first match and the last minute of the last. This should be abused. Not only for your own benefit, but for the benefit of others, as this will help your opponent and you develop the meta-game between YOURSELVES and improve your own play.
You own improvement is more for your opponents benefit then your own. If that makes sense to you, then use it, it will help you.

It's tough in-game, sure, but it's a lot easier to pull back than it is to push forward, it's just a matter of doing it, which is the greatest difference between 'good' players and 'great' players.
Most people are exactly there, and it's steady today as it was when PM first showed up. Take that step, you're as ready as ever.

Good stuff otherwise.
More nuance/character-related suggestions, for the sake of the thread. F-Tilt is good I heard, especially establishing that you're willing to trade it with things like Razer Leaf and D-Tilts first hit, etc... Completely takes away a lot of footziez games, which is where your neutral game seems to struggle (the whole Dair-hopes and hail-mary-Fireball stuff is a result of this uncertainty on how to maneuver and reluctance to shield/discomfort and uncertainty with WDOOS ground-game)
Stay grounded, be a rock, Ftilt, Dsmash (you did this once and it worked in the first match, and somehow you didn't pick up on its value and neglected it/didn't observe it), SH Nairs even.
Force crap on people directly if you want to play that style (pressure works better if you're making things happen rather than hoping they get caught by that rising Dair when you DO get in there... get in there FIRST).
A message for you (and your opponent), SB (and his opponent), and others, just stop jumping into ****.
There is way ****ing too much jumping into **** in the last few videos posted in this thread.
Like ****, you all know better than that.
LOL


/end typical show up and rant message for the month.
That all applies to everyone, so hopefully somebody gets something from it.
 

Jasou

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
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Being a scrub in NorCal
Def Marth >.>

I switch in that one... I hate it dearly.

btw, anyone have a critique of my earlier videos? I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on Mario's gameplay, but I'd like others to check and see what I'm missing.

Yeah, I actually really hate that match up as well. I can't tell if I'm getting more outplayed or if the mu is hard. I find it really hard to get in vs a Marth that knows what he's doing, so I try to just avoid that entirely. I don't like playing campy, but it's a really bad idea to let marth be defensive.

What I do like about the match up though, is that when you get off a grab the match up seems so much better because of all the damage you can do off it. That grab range increase in the last patch should help with that I guess.

If you guys have some solid tips or suggestions for the match up I'd love to hear it. Cuz otherwise I like to switch to Diddy Kong, but I don't want to be scared of that match up.

As for critiqing your video, I'd have to do that later cuz I'm busy today.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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SB's vid is good to watch for Fireballs that allow for opportunities. Unfortunately both players in their vid are doing the same things repeatedly as well and aren't picking up on it or adapting. Fortunately though, because of the lack of dynamics in their play and reliance on their capabilities within their limits, the entire video set is an example of the same thing over and over which is particularly directly helpful to you.
what am I even reading LOLLL
 

Nausicaa

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Are you confused about something in the post and would like more explanaition, or just rhetorical posting?
What's posted is accurate, so if that's what you're implying, take another look.
 

Jasou

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Being a scrub in NorCal
Yo guys, got 2nd in a tournament last weekend going some Mario (mostly to counter Ivy, which didn't end up working). But I come with videos... so have at them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYPIlgjHLeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea_6Vik38ng
There is one match of Ness and one of ZSS, otherwise those are Mario.

I also was in a double Mario team (coined the "Caped Crusaders"), we got last but it was hella fun!
I'm just going to critique the parts I feel confident about critiquing. These critiques are my opinions, so they arn't 100% perfect.
1st part:
4:16 A short hop fireball would have been good there too because of the platform, but in the end you won the trade so that doesn't really matter.

4:29 Grabbing after the dair here would have been pretty good because Ivy couldn't have done much to react to it with how you hit the dair.

4:35 Duck or shield that razor leaf (even possibly cape). It put you in a bad position.

4:38 Just gonna say that I liked that u-smash.

2nd part:
0:06 I would have just dair'd again there because ivy couldn't do anything about it since it's on the back of her shield. Then you can follow up with something like jabs or a grab, depending on what you feel would work better.

0:07 Really nice short combo off the hit confirm from the u-tilt. After it you could have double jump'd into an u-air for some freebie damage.

0:46 Another situation where grab would have been really good after dair.

1:47 Can't exactly tell what you wanted after the up-tilt, because of his percent and DI I would have just gone for another one in the other direction.

2:55 My favorite stage for Mario :D Awesome platforms, low ceiling, and great wall jump recoveries. I would have taken ivy there as well.

3:00 Ivy was ready to use the platforms against you by running under them when you came down in the middle. Try to make it so that you're the only one abusing platforms.

3:06 u-air would have been good here, because it's confirmed damage that might put ivy over a platform with you being under it after. Which leads to more possible free damage. I guess it's fine though because you knew ivy was in lag from her dair.

3:20 Something that I've noticed so far is that you throw out a lot of fairs in these situations where you're close to ivy. It's not bad at all if they hit, but imo you should use them when you feel more confident that they will hit.

3:22 Great cape! Gave you time to get under the platforms again. Ivy is scary on this stage if you let her use the platforms, but you didn't so you're abusing your counterpick correctly.

3:44 Seems like you got a bit nervous or hit shield on land for that combo follow up. Was a good startup though.

4:16 You could have also used side b to help grab the ledge in that situation, but in the end it's always really good to practice sweetspotting with the up-b because of Mario's awesome magic hands.

4:29 I think down throw would have combo'd into fair at that percentage. Even if it didn't, Ivy might have landed on the platform and would then have to correctly tech to survive a fair, which can cover a lot of that platform on this stage.

4:59 Good u-smash oos

5:18 Grab after dair

5:27 Another situation where sweetspot would have helped a lot.

Going to end it on that match since it's 5 in the morning over here, lol. Overall suggestions: Know when you can regrab off dairs, practice sweetspotting with Mario's up-b and magic hands, and be more confident when throwing out fairs.
 

GMaster171

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I meant to post a thank you for the critique, but the we got hit. so thanks :D

First time playing Mario in tourny, so I assumed there was a lot to work on. dair>grab more lol
 

deadjames

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I'd really like to have my Mario critiqued, unfortunately, I don't have any Mario matches saved at the moment, but I should be able to post some this weekend, I've been playing Mario since 2.1, and I'm not sure if I would consider him my main because I also play Luigi, Bowser, Ivysuar, and Marth and I'm comfortable enough with all of them to consider any of them a main, but I always find myself going back to Mario because I've always loved his and Luigi's play style since Smash 64, and on P:M I feel like he shines brighter than he ever has in the Smash series.
 

Nausicaa

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^LOL so many fireballs, dayum.
Get that Wario to challenge you more. The few times he did, he got free hits on your face while you threw fireballs at point blank range not expecting him to approach.
Tell him D-Tilt has sexy cancel frames and combos into everything too.

For you, my most vague and yet most accurate suggestion would be to play without fireballs for a while. Like the way almost anyone improves with Falco when they temporarily abandon lasers, you'll do the same. It's a default, reactionary position for you. Find something else to do there, and you're limitations of play will explode effortlessly.
Also, the thing in my sig is helpful.
 

deadjames

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I'm more so posting this assuming this is kinda like an overall video thread, but here is a 3 of 5 grand finals set I did in a tournament last week, all Mario vs Wario.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk7bXjXrM70&list=PLzeNdkW1efDEyroN996a1p9A7-cyZClWW&index=12
To add to what Nausicaa said, when you're projectile camping and you see that your opponent is successfully avoiding all of your projectiles, like in game 1, it's time to either change up your pattern or come up with a new strategy. Some other things I would recommend:
-Mix-up your jab follow-ups, you pretty much only used dsmash, but Mario's jab 1 and 2 and can cancel into all of his tilts and smashes, up-b and grab, in general though jab 1 follow-ups are always a better idea than jab 2.
-Also utilize grabs more, I only really saw you grabbing in game 3, grabs are a great way to punish with Mario because dthrow combos into all kinds of stuff
-Which leads me into my next point, don't always just throw out random fairs, dthrow combos into it with floaty characters.
 
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