zFlashyStyle
Smash Apprentice
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- Feb 28, 2012
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Need MU help,where do i go to ask for such things?
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- Thread starter Thunder Of Zeus
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Rizen
Smash Legend
Here :/ . The forums were dead for a long time and we don't have a current, complete MU thread so ask any questions here. vs which character, stages etc.
Rizen
Smash Legend
The explode after 7 seconds no matter what. The health is hard to judge because it's not consistent, rather it reacts more to some attacks/factors than others regardless of damage.
Instant detonation:
Enough impact on a solid surface. Touching the enemy.
True explosions (Samus' attacks look like explosions but are only fire type) Only Link/TLink's bombs, snake's explosives, Bob-bombs (Peach) trigger true explosions.
Luigi's fireballs, disjointed attacks like Marth/Ike's swords that have enough power (Fsmashes, Ike's Fair/Bair/Ftilt). Red Pikmin, DDD's minions all cancel with bombs (Gordos too). Yoshi's eggs. Full charge Aura spheres and charged beams. Maybe a few others I forgot...
Other damaging attacks need to hit with several in a row, like very rapid lasers from fox and Sheik's needles.
Most attacks can 'hurt' bombs but not enough to matter. Wolf's Lasers and non-red pikmin can deal enough damage to detonate bombs but not always.
Water and wind don't hurt them but move bombs away; shields too.
Reflectors/catching a bomb make it explode when it touches Link and not the opponent and do not hurt it.
Snakes grenades and missile have 'armor' that bombs don't; it's different. Link's bombs have better priority and health than TLinks.
Besides what I mentioned, bombs probable overpower the attack or are not affected enough for it to matter.
'Hope that helps
.
Actually, as far as I'm aware, based off my own tests, Link's bombs have an estimated 6% 'health' that they can absorb. It's like this, if they are hit by anything that does under 6%, they won't blow up. Anything that does 6% or more, they'll blow up upon getting hit. So for example, they could be hit by two attacks that do 2% each and still not blow up, and only after getting hit for the third time by that attack, having breached the 6% border, will the bomb blow up. You can of course blow them up with an attack that only does 1% so long as the bomb has already absorbed 5% damage. This 'bomb health' is unaffected by the staleness of the bomb, but other move's staleness must be kept in mind to avoid confusion. Just for the record, I'm not 100% certain that it's exactly 6% (you know, cause it could be 6.1% and simply not register), but that's the conclusion I was able to come to using what I could, and quite frankly I don’t care about that really specific stuff XD.
I just wanted to clear that up. There are of course other factors that go into the bomb exploding, as was indicated, but I think this is more in line with the original question. Keep up the good work.
I just wanted to clear that up. There are of course other factors that go into the bomb exploding, as was indicated, but I think this is more in line with the original question. Keep up the good work.
Rizen
Smash Legend
^That sounds about right. Foxy leaps in with precise data and deceptive speed! lol.
A side note, red pikmin are fire attacks but also have the property of detonating explosives. Normal fire won't automatically detonate bombs.
A side note, red pikmin are fire attacks but also have the property of detonating explosives. Normal fire won't automatically detonate bombs.
Rizen
Smash Legend
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=325062boomers said:
Q Link has a million Advanced Techniques (ATs), which ones should I learn?
A Anything ledgehop/ledge stall
Zair tether edgehogging
Arrow locks and jab locks + setups
Jab canceling
Anything involving bombs- including footstool bomb combos and Zair or Fsmash with a bomb in hand
Quickdraw arrows
Reverse arrows (in the air tap backward then 'B' right after)
Landing reverse jabs (like when you Bair then tap backwards before you land and jab in that direction)
Wind Gimps
Dash Attack Cancel (DAC), sometimes referred to as Dash Attack Cancel USmash (DACUS)
See this thread Fox Is Openly Deceptive made for a full list of ATs, combos and how to perform them: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277706
Rizen
Smash Legend
(If you don't know all the terms just ask)
Snake's a -2 and not easy.
Link actually out-camps snake. If you SH/Jump around while throwing boomerang and partially charged arrows Link can stop most of Snake's grenades and hop away from the rest. Angle the boomerang down. This also helps prevent Snake's DAC slide.
Boomerang is good in this MU, it destroys Snake's Dsmash mines and the wind pulls nades away.
Link's Nair can FF through snake's upB.
Snake wrecks up close. His Ftilt is frame 4. If he Ftilts both parts Link can shield grab him. Try to space with the tip of Zair or farther. If Snake army crawls, airdodge>zair so it hits lower or throw a boomerang down angled. SH around and try to spam from beyond Zair's range or switch to Zair when Snake closes in. Stay near the ground but move with SHs; Link will get wrecked if he stays grounded. Zair landing cancels so you can buffer shield and shield grab or land and jab to keep Snake back.
Snakes like to hold nades and shield as they explode but if Link spaces with the tip of his reach he can avoid that.
Never roll into snake and do not be predictable when teching or returning from the ledge because Snake can predict and Fsmash which has insane power.
If Snake Nairs or Dairs it creates an attack wall. DI out as fast as possible because the last hits are strong. The DI direction doesn't matter too much, just DI the quickest way out. If he hits with Ftilt1 DI out and up.
Snake's grab range is good and his Dthrow lays Link on the ground for a tech-chase. If you stay in place he'll be able to Utilt so quickly roll left/right, press up to stand or attack if he moves away. The goal is to get out and reset the situation.
Snake lives forever. if you can trip with boomerang>fire an arrow and he doesn't tech the trim it will arrow lock which means he's forced to stand without rolling or attacking. Link can Fsmash or SH Dair Snake then.
Try to chain weaker attacks into power hits. Link Zair>Fsmash. Jab cancels. Punish landing and Snakes awkward air game. Shield grab if Snake tries to landing Bair/Nair or jab combo/Ftilt/Utilt and you shield it. Link's Uthrow will KO Snake after 180-200% damage.
Snake's upB can take attacks that do 7% or less without flinching. Link can Jump offstage and Fair him out of it or charge arrows if Snake's far from the stage. Snake will try to recover high so throw bombs up to limit his space and try to read Snakes falling back to the stage for juggles (Utilt and Uair). If Snake recovers low Link can grab him with the grabbubble on Link's hand (not the claw), grab Snake out of his upB but don't throw or pummel; Snake will grab release and not be able to upB again. He can C4>blow himself up then upB but that does good damage and you can intercept again. If Snake has C4 planted elsewhere he will die.
Usually larger stages help Link. PS1 would be my choice because the platforms help Link maneuver. Brinstar is actually good vs Snake because Snake can't get past the destroyable part in the middle without jumping. Link has great platform camping abilities there.
Play safe and spam from mid-range or farther. Don't challenge Snake up close. Be patent and build damage because Snake will live a looong time. It's a solid disadvantage for Link
.
Rizen
Smash Legend
I barely can't place the name but it's on the tip of my brain...
The hand grab bubble will grab out of the air, yes:
Rizen
Smash Legend
It's not hard. If Snake's recovering up to the ledge just run to the ledge and press Z a step away Link will slide slightly but he won't fall off. Link's grab last 8 frames and the hand grab bubble is in the same place the whole time.It is hard to do ?
Otherwise, thanks ! It help me alot
Good Snakes will upB a little away from the ledge then airdodge forward>land or grab the ledge but at that spacing you should Fsmash or SH Fair him away.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Ness:
Can be hard to space because his Fair and mobility. He likes to rise with it but if Link can hang back or DI out and down you have a good chance to punish from below. Ness is hard to space but Link can control the camping; moving camp with SHs/jumps and try to space farther than his Fair reach. Use Link's fast falling speed and DI to land before him and buffer attacks. Link's Fair/Bair can landing cancel but only use them if Ness gets too close because his Fair is very hard to beat and he can PK fire down at Link.
PK fire is pretty obvious. He uses it when Link is down at a 45degree angle from Ness' jump and when Ness is on the ground at a certain spacing. Link's standard spam walls stop it well. If you get hit DI out and up and jump or spotdodge (if you're on the ground) because Ness will try to chain it to a grab, another PK fire or Fsmash depending on what he thinks he can get away with. The only time to really worry about PK fire is when he uses it to counter Link's approach or action in which case he can't block or avoid it. Link out-camps and a passive agressive Link shouldn't have much trouble dealing with PK fire.
Up close Ness wins. So play passive and defensively. Ness' Bthrow can KO at 130%+ which is scary. Ness isn't big on chaining attacks like some characters except Fair>land>grab or whatever. If Ness gets in he will try to keep pressuring you but it's not guaranteed. DI out, use Link's attacks and spam to cover escapes and try to land first or grab the ledge to break Ness' chains. Ness' yoyo is good at punishing dodges and starting chains; don't rely on spotdodge just get out.
On the ledge: when Link's on the ledge Ness can do annoying things like PK fire or Dtilt rapidly. If Ness Dtils you just DI out and tether the ledge. Link's tether edgehog can use ledge invulnerability to delay safely for a while so don't feel pressured to immediately get on stage every time but don't linger long either. Ness might try to Dair if he sees a pattern of ledge jumps. Mix it up and you'll be okay.
Ness loves to Fair from the ledge when he's returning to the stage. Link is good at anti-planking spamming with his 3 projectiles and if you space far enough Link will be safe. You can try to Dair and avoid Ness' Fair by being above him with a good read. Attacking from the side (besides Zair) will probably lose to Ness' Fair though. This is a good time to shield grab Ness' Fair because he won't have any jumps left.
PK Thunder is surprisingly good at edge guarding Link so throw projectiles out. Link can boomerang wind gimp Ness (and Lucas) during PK thunders and PK flash/freeze. Ness can be very fast to guide thunder into himself for PK thunder2 (PKT2) and will try to frame trap you with it. Don't try to beat it by rushing. Instead simply shield and PKT2 will stop at Link's shield (unlike Lucas') and give you a free smash. If Ness cancels it into the ground you can punish that lag too. Any attack can stop PKT1 at its head but the tail is invulnerable. Hitting Ness durning PKT1 will also stop it.
Ness' KO moves are grab>Bthrow, Bair, Fsmash (often chained from PK fire). He can also Uair from below and Dair spike. If Link plays keep away he avoids all of these. Ness is good at intercepting Link offstage (like everyone) so throw spam out, mix up recoveries as usual. if you're going to dodge offstage space it a bit farther than you think because Ness' aerials have deceptive reach. Ness' Dair has wierd attack area and last a good amount of time, he may use it from a SH (like Samus/Ganon/etc does with their Dair). Stay away and don't assume you can dodge past. PK Flash is strong and Ness will probably try to get you as you recover; Link can FF airdodge>tether the ledge to avoid Flash.
KOing Ness:
Link gets a guaranteed Dsmash/Jab/Dash attack if he grab releases Ness (provided Ness doesn't break free during a pummel). You can get extra damage in with mind games like grab>ness grab releases>buffered jab>cancel to another grab>grab release Dsmash. Don't get greedy because only 1 jab is guaranteed and Ness can DI away. Shield grabbing Fair (if Ness can't double jump away) is a good setup.
Jab cancels in general are good vs Ness because they can setup grab and punt Link in a good spot to mind game Ness.
Locks like arrow lock/jab lock and footstool>Bomb down thrown>Dair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90gqoqtaajo are always good KO options.
Utilt is good vs Ness. Don't rely on Usmash much because Ness has good air movement and avoids it well. Link can do stuff like Zair>land Utilt/jab depending. Stay near the ground or a platform and try to get under Ness' air game.
If you DI Ness' attacks well you often can get a quick smash or tilt landed to punish clumsy spacing.
Offstage Link's projectiles are great vs Ness' limited recovery options. Ness must follow an obvious path for most longer recoveries and Ness' Fair won't stop projectiles (transcendence has it's downsides). Wind murders ness' recoveries. Any attack that hits Ness' PKT1 head and not Ness makes him helplessly freefall. Link is goot at quick tether edgehogging Ness' PKT2 recoveries.
Stages: avoid stages where Link is easily gimped like Frigate. Ness can be good on BF. wider stages like PS1 help Link most.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=914gIb29aZ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X02hRfEKK08
I g2g I'll do MK's MU later.
This is my favorite sentence of your MU analysis.
Rizen
Smash Legend
I meant to say 'put'.
Tap the control stick and 'C' stick rapidly but stop tapping before the hitstun wears off. You can simply tap the control stick and you'll never attack by accident but it's less effective.
I'll try to work in a MK MU summery.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
Yoshi has an annoying grab game and a chain grab on Link. Yoshi wins with speed in close combat but fortunately Link has better reach and can wall Yoshi off pretty well. Yoshi's shield is bad and that makes ground approaching hard for him if Link covers himself with Zair or Bair/Fair depending on spacing. Link Out camps but you have to be smart about it because eggs beat any single projectile Link has. Link must use all 3 and be ready to throw in Zair and melee attacks. This works to stop his planking too.
The trick to this MU is keep Yoshi no closer than the tip of Link's reach aka tip of attack spacing
You can judge the tip hitbubble for all Link’s sword swings visually by hitting with the sky blue energy streak area.
Yoshi has great mobility so it's not easy. Having bombs and boomerang on screen helps a lot. If Yoshi gets in reset the spacing.
Link can SH>Zair to pressure Yoshi on the ground and spaced right Zair goes through Yoshi's eggs safely. Yoshi takes a lot of damage so be patient and play defensively. Link can live a loooong time too.
If Yoshi Dsmashes or Dtilts Link can whiplash the ledge (DI down and tap Z twice quickly). Yoshi's Smashes are easy to avoid by practicing good tip of attack spacing. Yoshi sometimes downB tries to bomb Link for KOs but with good DI and airdodges you can avoid the 2nd hit (I think) and good spacing prevents that in the first place. Yoshi's other KO move is Uair but Link can survive that for a long time by momentum canceling with Dair.
Always wall off Yoshi with the best option for that spacing: (farthest to closest) Projectiles>Zair>Fair/Bair or Tilts and Smashes>Nair or Jabs. This applies to recoveries too. Yoshi's aerials can eat boomerangs so don't spam projectiles when you're in Fair spacing etc. Sometimes it's best to simply airdodge and move away. Good DI/SDI helps escape many of his multi-hit moves.
To KO Yoshi use the standard tricks and tactics. Dsmash/Utilt for a fast (frames 6 or 7) KO, Fsmash at that^ above picture spacing, Ftilt ledge returns, Dair with a good read (like ledge jumps), Fair>land and buffer Utilt etc to frame trap, Zair>land Fsmash/Dsmash, footstool bomb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90gqoqtaajo , arrow lock and jab lock> Dair, Up throw after 180%, and if he's high in the air throw bombs up to frame trap and Uair or Utilt. Link can sometimes gimp with projectiles and edge hogging. Remember Yoshi is heavy and will take at least 150% damage before most attacks can KO.
Yoshi can egg lay grab with his tongue in the air so don't stand in front of his landings. If you do get turned into an egg wiggle the stick to escape and Nair or Bair are good to stop followups.
Yoshi is about even except his stupid CG gets Link offstage and makes counter picking better for Yoshi :/ (bombs can help stop CGs but good spacing and platforms are the best solutions). I'd take Yoshi to BF then SV for starters, CP PS1 then somewhere with good platforms to work with like BF and Ban FD or Frigate. Yoshi's CG and timeouts can make Frig slightly better than FD sometimes. Link doesn't have great stage options and Yoshi does.
It's a light -2 MU all in all.
Here are some wifi ladder vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBLs9ZhYLA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTOd-7gvyxQ
others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LNIa7vsMYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYRVMr-k-mQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPgqj2APHDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQMAE9xs-hM
Marthcrazy101
Smash Cadet
Does link have any meteor smashes/spikes?
Rizen
Smash Legend
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/unbreakable-spirit-using-link-in-brawl.325062/
Dtilt can spike but the hit bubble arrangement and ledge snaps make it extremely difficult and Link has better options than to risk sour-spotting Dtilt vs a recovering opponent.
The yellow hitbubbles in 2 spike (never mind the rest of the old image). Unfortunately the non-spiking, sour hitbubbles launch up a good distance that has almost no knockback growth with damage and no good follow ups. If anything they help the opponent into a better recovery position. The (blue) sour hitbubbles out prioritize the spiking ones so a spike will only happen if the blue don’t touch at all. Link can spike facing backwards but his hurtbox overlaps the hitbubble.
Dtilt’s slow to start (hits frames 12-14 and ends 31) and does 12 damage. Use it for a less committing low shield poke alternative to Dsmash or try to spike an opponent as they rise through a floor or plank if you feel lucky. I do not recommend this move.
Naroghin
Smash Ace
Haha, that's perfect! I just came in here to ask about the viability of Dtilt as a serious spike/edgeguard move and got everything I was looking for.
Another question. Has there been or does there need to be further testing on the effectiveness of the Hylian Shield during serious play? So far I ahve seen that it can tend to leave me open for well spaced projectiles and keeps me from staying mobile; however, I am hoping this is just poor application and not at all an indication of its overall worth in the hands of a more skilled player. I guess I'm just asking about what is currently known about the Hylian Shield's properties and uses so I can attempt some further testing and application of my own. Any thoughts?
Another question. Has there been or does there need to be further testing on the effectiveness of the Hylian Shield during serious play? So far I ahve seen that it can tend to leave me open for well spaced projectiles and keeps me from staying mobile; however, I am hoping this is just poor application and not at all an indication of its overall worth in the hands of a more skilled player. I guess I'm just asking about what is currently known about the Hylian Shield's properties and uses so I can attempt some further testing and application of my own. Any thoughts?
Rizen
Smash Legend
It's not good in serious games. Link is better off hopping around and throwing his own projectiles out. The only real use H Shield has is to block big range attacks you see coming and not take normal shield pressure from them (attacks like Zelda's Din's Fire, PK Flash/Freeze, Gordos, Charge shots) and then it's situational to if Link's grounded and can't move out of the way.
Unfortunately most range attacks can be spaced to not tough Link's H Shield and Link will drop his guard with the twirling sword animation when he's standing. Attacks like falco's laser, ROB's uncharged beam and others can hit Link's head and miss his shield when he crouches so sitting with the H shield out just invites the opponent to try to space attacks around it
Link can slide with his H shield in effect by running then not inputting a direction to approach but this only goes far enough on ice to be useful and that almost never will happen (only on PS2's ice section). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY1M7HIUMnQ
Naroghin
Smash Ace
I see. Thanks for the time and info. I'll leave the shield at home for now. Maybe if the rest of my game gets solid enough I'll at least look at spotting situations where it can be pulled out for some laughs or wtf's and leave it at that.
Edit: A couple specific questions:
1. Do you have any advice for going for the kill? I realize that a huge part of this is your skill in DI and SDI but I saw that consistently you would make it up into very high percentages and I just couldn't find that magic hit that would send you home. I tried hard not to fish for smashes and dairs at those points but if I don't land anything like that I just feel like I'm wasting the stock.
2. Back to the dtilt meteor. As an edge guarding technique I understand it's certainly terrible, but what about early ko's if you are able to get the person to the edge and jab cancel>dtilt?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYa-u9HD0fY Is this at least a safe way to try to get the meteor or am I missing some important factors?
3. What is the way to safely/effectively exit a lock? Roll-away? Rising attack? Is there a way to expedite the exit?
Edit: A couple specific questions:
1. Do you have any advice for going for the kill? I realize that a huge part of this is your skill in DI and SDI but I saw that consistently you would make it up into very high percentages and I just couldn't find that magic hit that would send you home. I tried hard not to fish for smashes and dairs at those points but if I don't land anything like that I just feel like I'm wasting the stock.
2. Back to the dtilt meteor. As an edge guarding technique I understand it's certainly terrible, but what about early ko's if you are able to get the person to the edge and jab cancel>dtilt?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYa-u9HD0fY Is this at least a safe way to try to get the meteor or am I missing some important factors?
3. What is the way to safely/effectively exit a lock? Roll-away? Rising attack? Is there a way to expedite the exit?
Last edited:
CURRY
Smash Journeyman
Tether recovery vs up special? Tether seems like it can make Link recover farther than up special in some places. :/
Yeah, I know I should mix it up.
And what do I use for momentum cancelling? I've seen videos where people use nair, but in the guide it says bair- and there's that thing where you can immediately fastfall if you do cstick + down on analog. Sooooo which? I'll assume that the guide is a bit outdated? It was writtin in '08)
How useful do you find the bombslides? It seems pretty cool meh, but it really looks like a JC throw can serve the same purpose, judging by how Link slid. Or not? I don't know. T-T I mean, there was that one thing where he threw the bomb, and was facing BACKWARDS...
Okay yeah. There are a LOT of ATs. Which ones aren't ones that are nearly useless, and I should learn?
I'm not even going to main Link. I just feel bored, so might as well spend some time on Link for some time. x.x So yeah. Some basic ATs? I know some bomb ATs because of Toon, and I know about the DACUS, and that's pretty much it.
Oh yeah. The jab thing. Do you have to do the jab cancel thing? With most characters, you do a crouch cancel jab to go from jab 2 to other things.
Yeah, I know I should mix it up.
And what do I use for momentum cancelling? I've seen videos where people use nair, but in the guide it says bair- and there's that thing where you can immediately fastfall if you do cstick + down on analog. Sooooo which? I'll assume that the guide is a bit outdated? It was writtin in '08)
How useful do you find the bombslides? It seems pretty cool meh, but it really looks like a JC throw can serve the same purpose, judging by how Link slid. Or not? I don't know. T-T I mean, there was that one thing where he threw the bomb, and was facing BACKWARDS...
Okay yeah. There are a LOT of ATs. Which ones aren't ones that are nearly useless, and I should learn?
I'm not even going to main Link. I just feel bored, so might as well spend some time on Link for some time. x.x So yeah. Some basic ATs? I know some bomb ATs because of Toon, and I know about the DACUS, and that's pretty much it.
Oh yeah. The jab thing. Do you have to do the jab cancel thing? With most characters, you do a crouch cancel jab to go from jab 2 to other things.
Use bair when being knocked sideways offstage and dair when getting knocked upwards.
The tether recovery is useful for whiplashing (say when you get down smashed by Fox) or if you aren't far from the edge and need a quick recovery to avoid being edgeguarded, but UpB has greater reach horizontally, a good attack angle and reach, and transcendental priority iirc. It's mostly about spacing your recovery so that your final hit of UpB will swing into the edge itself (where the edgeguarder would be). Usually don't try UpBing over an edgeguarder back onto stage because the vertical reach probably won't get you there in most circumstances.
Bombsliding is pretty useful for disenganging and spacing but is far more difficult to execute consistently than any other attack in the game. Focus on JC bomb throws. If you ever begin to feel extremely comfortable with Link's DAC, then you might consider practicing bombsliding. But focus more on Arrow Cancelling, Invincibombing, dropping and catching bombs in the air so you can do aerials, bombsmashing, and mostly just learning to use your projectiles effectively in tandem.
The tether recovery is useful for whiplashing (say when you get down smashed by Fox) or if you aren't far from the edge and need a quick recovery to avoid being edgeguarded, but UpB has greater reach horizontally, a good attack angle and reach, and transcendental priority iirc. It's mostly about spacing your recovery so that your final hit of UpB will swing into the edge itself (where the edgeguarder would be). Usually don't try UpBing over an edgeguarder back onto stage because the vertical reach probably won't get you there in most circumstances.
Bombsliding is pretty useful for disenganging and spacing but is far more difficult to execute consistently than any other attack in the game. Focus on JC bomb throws. If you ever begin to feel extremely comfortable with Link's DAC, then you might consider practicing bombsliding. But focus more on Arrow Cancelling, Invincibombing, dropping and catching bombs in the air so you can do aerials, bombsmashing, and mostly just learning to use your projectiles effectively in tandem.