Important Threads + Q&A

[escro]

you can FF nair to start a jab lock or if you want to go for a kill with a dair, you can just footstool to dair.
depending on how they manage to DI the bomb blast and if you miss the footstool you can go for a fair as well, something that happens to me often since i suck at bombstooling

 

[_Saint_]

Lol owh is that what it's called? Bombstooling... I always thought it was the same as Bomb Footstooling lol. Yeah I been practicing and I can get it on CPUs with no DI, but dealing with real people and how they DI makes it hard.

 

[Rizen]

you can FF nair to start a jab lock or if you want to go for a kill with a dair, you can just footstool to dair.
depending on how they manage to DI the bomb blast and if you miss the footstool you can go for a fair as well, something that happens to me often since i suck at bombstooling

^Note: the purpose of the bomb is to launch the opponent up so they are footstooled in the air. Ground footstools only have guaranteed bomb down throw followups. Bomb>FF Nair will not lock, you need the footstool.

Lol owh is that what it's called? Bombstooling... I always thought it was the same as Bomb Footstooling lol. Yeah I been practicing and I can get it on CPUs with no DI, but dealing with real people and how they DI makes it hard.

I think Footstool bombing is what I posted where the footstool happens first. Bomb footstooling is bomb>footstool>followup. It wasn't called bombstooling because it sounds like an explosive stool sample or bombing a toilet.
There aren't strict PC regulations on these terms; also long as people know what you're talking about it's cool.

 

[_Saint_]

It wasn't called bombstooling because it sounds like an explosive stool sample or bombing a toilet.

LMAO... Thought it sounded funny

 

[AyatoK26]

You probably have this somewhere but what's the better momentum canceling move for being sent flying horizontally and/or vertically? B-air or D-air?

 

[Dyclone]

^ I personally don't like using Dair to Momentum Cancel at all. Don't use Dair if you think you'll have to recover or if you feel like your opponent can reach you before you get out of the Dair animation.

 

[_Saint_]

You probably have this somewhere but what's the better momentum canceling move for being sent flying horizontally and/or vertically? B-air or D-air?

WTF NEVER EVER USE D-AIR WHEN HIT HORIZONTALLY!!!!! Even if you don't SD you've wasted time and distance and probably won't be able to recover anymore... It will make you drop lower than you would normally even if it doesn't fast fall so you still end up screwed because you can't reach the goddamn edge. B-air hands down... even though sometimes I use D-air when I'm hit straight up. However, D-air leaves you vulnerable for while so it would be advised to use B-air as often as you can...

 

[escro]

Use bair when hit horizontally, and use dair when hit vertically. Bair for vertical works as well but dair is slightly better.
What i usually do is, if i think i wont be going too far up and thus in danger of getting hit by my opponent then i would bair, but if im in danger of going past the blast zones i would dair. If youve been sent that far up and still live, the animation would have ended way before youre in any danger of being hit again.

 

[Capuchon]

The Dair, for me, can be use, in a specific situations, like :

- DDD is offstage and try to come back on the stage, do a Dair will often hit DDD cause he can't do a Bair or something, he is front of the stage, and even if he Bup, that will never hit Link. For me, it's more safe than on other character like Marth or MK.

- You are on Battlefield you try to kill the opponent, and force him to approach, you go on the plateform and throw some bombs, if you can read where he will go, you can try a Dair, because even if you miss the opponent, you got no lag on the Dair.

But for me, the Dair is generaly great offstage (on some character) and on the stages with good plateform, and he can kill really early on some character, just make sure that you will get no lag on the dair, otherwise, you will punish hard.

And for momentum, personally, i use only when i'm hit by an attack like Snake's Fsmash or his Utilt. The wrong idea would be of use for an attack like Fox's Fsmash. But for me, the Dair still a great momentum.

I know you know already these stuff, but i just said my opinion on the Dair.

And sorry if you don't understand what i say, i'm french (Belgium) and i never had a English lesson =/.

 

[Rizen]

Use bair when hit horizontally, and use dair when hit vertically. Bair for vertical works as well but dair is slightly better.
What i usually do is, if i think i wont be going too far up and thus in danger of getting hit by my opponent then i would bair, but if im in danger of going past the blast zones i would dair. If youve been sent that far up and still live, the animation would have ended way before youre in any danger of being hit again.

^This.
If I'm launched up and know I won't die then I pull a bomb and don't bother momentum canceling because Link falls very fast and bombs stop air pursuits and cover landings.

 

[_Saint_]

Even if Link ends his D-air animation early enough you still do not want to be caught in the air... What you could do is either use a bomb like Rizen said or sometimes what I do I'll just D-air again to get back down quick and punish my opponent if they're trying to attack from directly beneath me. I wouldn't do that very much though because once they start to read it and expect it you'll get punished...

NOW. If you know you're dead after being launched straight up and not even momentum canceling can save you then use Z-air...! Saves time. 'Nuff said.

 

[escro]

what?
zair?
why would you even suggest that.
anyway you really shouldn't just "give up" and die. Link's a pretty heavy character, and with good DI and momentum cancelling he can survive up til 170~200 if you are good.

 

[Huggles828]

what?
Zair?
Why would you even suggest that.
Anyway you really shouldn't just "give up" and die. Link's a pretty heavy character, and with good di and momentum cancelling he can survive up til 170~200 if you are good.

^ This.

NEVER GIVE UP SON!

 

[escro]

Actually I had that quote in mind but i wasn't sure if anyone would get the reference haha

 

[Rizen]

About Dair for vertical momentum canceling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c4bMvey0Dpk#t=194s
Wario's Uair, in the air hitting Link with the starting damage 153% and Link lives. It helps.

anyway you really shouldn't just "give up" and die. Link's a pretty heavy character, and with good DI and momentum cancelling he can survive up til 170~200 if you are good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sijv_-r6jH8#t=158s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qzaP6UTkwGk#t=411s
'Never give up' Link's in the 180%-240% survival range for high launches, depending on who he's fighting. Unfortunately even though he can survive side launches, Link's recovery is so bad that it's usually being intercepted or gimped after the launch that kills him. Link is easy to gimp and that is a big reason why most MUs are so bad.

 

[escro]

240%??
wow.
I've only ever survived up til 210%, and that was because of a really stale move...

 

[AyatoK26]

^ I personally don't like using Dair to Momentum Cancel at all. Don't use Dair if you think you'll have to recover or if you feel like your opponent can reach you before you get out of the Dair animation.

WTF NEVER EVER USE D-AIR WHEN HIT HORIZONTALLY!!!!! Even if you don't SD you've wasted time and distance and probably won't be able to recover anymore... It will make you drop lower than you would normally even if it doesn't fast fall so you still end up screwed because you can't reach the goddamn edge. B-air hands down... even though sometimes I use D-air when I'm hit straight up. However, D-air leaves you vulnerable for while so it would be advised to use B-air as often as you can...

Use bair when hit horizontally, and use dair when hit vertically. Bair for vertical works as well but dair is slightly better.
What i usually do is, if i think i wont be going too far up and thus in danger of getting hit by my opponent then i would bair, but if im in danger of going past the blast zones i would dair. If youve been sent that far up and still live, the animation would have ended way before youre in any danger of being hit again.

The Dair, for me, can be use, in a specific situations, like :

- DDD is offstage and try to come back on the stage, do a Dair will often hit DDD cause he can't do a Bair or something, he is front of the stage, and even if he Bup, that will never hit Link. For me, it's more safe than on other character like Marth or MK.

- You are on Battlefield you try to kill the opponent, and force him to approach, you go on the plateform and throw some bombs, if you can read where he will go, you can try a Dair, because even if you miss the opponent, you got no lag on the Dair.

But for me, the Dair is generaly great offstage (on some character) and on the stages with good plateform, and he can kill really early on some character, just make sure that you will get no lag on the dair, otherwise, you will punish hard.

And for momentum, personally, i use only when i'm hit by an attack like Snake's Fsmash or his Utilt. The wrong idea would be of use for an attack like Fox's Fsmash. But for me, the Dair still a great momentum.

I know you know already these stuff, but i just said my opinion on the Dair.

And sorry if you don't understand what i say, i'm french (Belgium) and i never had a English lesson =/.

^This.
If I'm launched up and know I won't die then I pull a bomb and don't bother momentum canceling because Link falls very fast and bombs stop air pursuits and cover landings.

Even if Link ends his D-air animation early enough you still do not want to be caught in the air... What you could do is either use a bomb like Rizen said or sometimes what I do I'll just D-air again to get back down quick and punish my opponent if they're trying to attack from directly beneath me. I wouldn't do that very much though because once they start to read it and expect it you'll get punished...

NOW. If you know you're dead after being launched straight up and not even momentum canceling can save you then use Z-air...! Saves time. 'Nuff said.

About Dair for vertical momentum canceling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c4bMvey0Dpk#t=194s
Wario's Uair, in the air hitting Link with the starting damage 153% and Link lives. It helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sijv_-r6jH8#t=158s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qzaP6UTkwGk#t=411s
'Never give up' Link's in the 180%-240% survival range for high launches, depending on who he's fighting. Unfortunately even though he can survive side launches, Link's recovery is so bad that it's usually being intercepted or gimped after the launch that kills him. Link is easy to gimp and that is a big reason why most MUs are so bad.

So the general consensus I'm getting is D-air for vertical launches and B-air for the horizontal launches.

Thanks for the inputs everyone.

 

[Huggles828]

So the general consensus I'm getting is D-air for vertical launches and B-air for the horizontal launches.

Thanks for the inputs everyone.

Pretty much. Bair to fast fall can be better for vertical as well because the move finishes faster, but dair makes you start mcing earlier (you auto fast fall). That way you spend less time locked into a move afterwards. But if you think you might die go for dair.

Bair is definitely the best horizontally.

 

[Rizen]

Like Huggles said, Dair has a property that activates FFing. This sounds weird but Dair adds FF resistance to your launch as soon as it activates and the game sees this resistance even while Link is still going up.

It should be noted that throwing a bomb(or any throwing item) is the fastest way to start momentum canceling, faster than Bair.

 

[_Saint_]

I still like Zair the best... If you're hit horizontally you can save yourself by grabbing the edge with it... And if you're hit vertically it saves you from watching the dying animations. I mean who can argue with that? It's the most broken move in the game lololololol

 

[Capuchon]

I still like Zair the best... If you're hit horizontally you can save yourself by grabbing the edge with it...

I've look that, and apparently, we can survive the most of the Fsmash, or attack like snake's filt or Peach' AFA, but this trick is REALLY hard to do, cause have the reflex is too hard.

Basically, Link must just DI perpendicular, as usual, but in reverse. So if you DI for the exemple, Wario Fsmash, you don't DI left diagonal up, but left diagonal down.

Link, with this technique, can survive for a long time, but it's really too hard, you must have a perfect DI for not go too high or low.

 

[Rizen]

^ It's an AT called whiplash. In hitstun the grab button makes Link airdodge and Zair cancels airdodges. Zair's attack starts frame 10. How Zair knows to tether a ledge instead is during the first 5 frames it has AI that searches for ledges so if it finds one during those frames it will try to tether it. If Link is launched fast than these 5 frames cover a large distance and tethering a ledge cancels all momentum.
To whiplash DI strait down after a low sideways launch and mash grab, this airdodges>tether searches>ledge tethers ASAP.
The trick is to predict low angled launches because if a ledge is not close enough to tether Link will Zair normally which has a lot of lag. Certain characters have predictable low side launches: Zelda's Dtilt lock>Dsmash, Jiggz rollout, Wolf/MK/Yoshi's (and several other character's) Dsmash which are more common if you're near the stage edge, floor skidding Dthrows like Wolf/Sonic's, sideB 'missiles' like Pika/Luigi have, ZSS' suit pieces, etc.
Also whiplashing is easier if the ledge is a little above your level.

Norfair was an incredibly good stage for Link for many reasons. Whiplash was a big one.

 

[Capuchon]

MK Dthrow near of edge, is easy to Whiplash, and generally, is more safe than DI Up or something, no ? I do that often.

Norfair was an incredibly good stage for Link for many reasons. Whiplash was a big one.

I hope this stage wiil back =/

 

[_Saint_]

Everybody here saw Deva's super awesome whiplash on Norfair vs a Wario right? I forget who he was playing but it was a sick move... Maybe that was Legan... :S I don't really remember very well

 

[Huggles828]

It was Legan. He got his shield broken by the lava wave and took a mostly fully charged Wario fsmash at like 170% and survived it LIKE A BOSS. Then he got up, dusted himself off, was presumably immediately surrounded by a group of hot girls, and became a hero for life.

 

[Rizen]

If it was a brawl tourney, when you say 'group of hot girls' it means two girls. The rest of the room is full of guys. :/

Technically Link has no superarmor. It was the intangibility from airdodging and invulnerability of grabbing the ledge. /unimportant Brawl 'PC' terminology.

Edit response to Huggles' post below:
I was in a hurry and read super awesome as super armor, lol.

Everybody here saw Deva's super awesome whiplash on Norfair vs a Wario right?

 

[Huggles828]

Technically Link has no superarmor. It was the intangibility from airdodging and invulnerability of grabbing the ledge. /unimportant Brawl 'PC' terminology.

...Huh? Where'd super armor come from?

 

[_Saint_]

It was Legan. He got his shield broken by the lava wave and took a mostly fully charged Wario fsmash at like 170% and survived it LIKE A BOSS. Then he got up, dusted himself off, was presumably immediately surrounded by a group of hot girls, and became a hero for life.

Aha! So it was Legan... We need him back

 

[escro]

If link is holding a bomb and it explodes as he is meteor smashed, what happens to his momentum?
Thinking of ways to help against cg-spike deaths

 

[Rizen]

Bomb explosions cancel all momentum and create their own. So they will stop spikes and other launch momentum.

 

[escro]

Thanks.
This q/a thread needs more activity imo, seeing as its so helpful.

 

[Rayboy]

This q/a thread needs more activity

Here is your activity!
Is there a difference (of lag) if i make a ledgehop-arrow on the stage with cancel or without?
I don't know how to calculate or whatever...

 

[Rizen]

^Link's second jump has little height (the 2nd shortest in the game, Peach's is shortest) so if you successfully ledgehop an arrow without charging it Link will always quickdraw (start the arrow just before landing to eliminate most of the windup lag). Charged arrows at any charge level will not get the quickdraw boost.
Quickdrawing does reduce uncharged arrow lag enough to be useful. It's good to cover landings if the opponent isn't close enough to Zair.

 

[escro]

Personally i wouldnt suggest ledgehopped arrows as a ledge option tho.

 

[Rizen]

Personally i wouldnt suggest ledgehopped arrows as a ledge option tho.

This is a good point. Arrows have very little hitstun and Link is in a bad spot for punishment. Link can ledgehop his boomerang and bombpulls too which are better options if the opponent's far enough.

 

[Rayboy]

Thought of this...
I guessed the cancel makes it more useful but okay then

 

[Beat11]

Hey guys, short question, what are all the safe ways you guys pull bombs if you have any? I know about certain ones like dropping through a platform and pulling, short hop and pull while going offstage and tether the ledge, full hopping a bomb pull to be able to drop it and jump against ground approaches,etc. I know how to pull bombs very well (many have called me a bomb master) I just would like to know more methods of doing so to expand my options. If you have any, please share as I think it is vital to know how to pull bombs properly.

 

[Capuchon]

I don't know if the animation is longer on the floor or in the air for pull out bomb, someone know ?

 

[Beat11]

There actually is no real difference between them at all but for some reason it feels longer when ground. I know there is no real difference because he keeps the same drawing speed if you were to pull a bomb and then land in the middle of the animation.

 

[Rizen]

Bomb pulls last 40 frames. I assume that applies to ground or air.

Good times to pull bombs:
Anytime Link is moving in the air (including dropping) without risk of being hit or missing a recovery and is not doing anything else (like attacking).

Anytime Link is in the air and might land into a chain grabber's grab.

The only time it's better to ground bomb pull is if the opponent is recovering and you want to throw the bomb from the ground, like up throw at them or bomb slides etc. Basically when Link jumping will add lag frames and not help his spacing/positioning ground bomb pulls are better.
A situational time to ground pull is if you want to spam several bombs in a row. Holding down and rapidly tapping 'B' will make Link pull>throw>pull>throw etc as fast as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cd5GYvHEQlE#t=155s
Spaced right (so the bomb barely touches the ledge tip and explodes) this can be very dangerous to many plankers but if they're frame perfect the planker can avoid bombs alone but not with arrows and boomerang thrown in.

Specifics (all these only apply when it's safe, obviously):
on the ledge, drop>2nd jump>bomb pull>regrab the ledge.

traveling upward from a launch that won't kill you

platform drops

retreating SHs

falling back down to the stage from above

when Link's boomerang and maybe arrows are already spamming the screen

platform hopping

...as much as safely possible. Link's Bombs, Dair and Zair are some of the best moves in the game.