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Ike's Matchups

Commander

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So, it's been a while since I've been on here or smashboards in general. I'm slowly working my way up to the top of ranks in my region (Ontario, Canada), my best placing being third. There is a Lucario playing who is starting to improve and take me to last stock, and I can't have that happening. Any general matchup tips? I feel like I outplay him in the neutral, but he gets 50% combos off every time he lands a hit grounded. Outside of MU tips, how should I handle his pressure and which way should I be DIing his combos? (outwards just doesn't feel like it gets me out, unless subconsciously I've been DIing up)
Challenging Lucario on the ground is very difficult. He moves much faster and landing jab is very difficult. I would just try to focus on outspacing with fair. Whenever I play the Lucario I know I just switch to Marth because he has a mental block against Marth, but I don't think that would solve your problems.
 

xBlitz

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Challenging Lucario on the ground is very difficult. He moves much faster and landing jab is very difficult. I would just try to focus on outspacing with fair. Whenever I play the Lucario I know I just switch to Marth because he has a mental block against Marth, but I don't think that would solve your problems.
Well, outside of the fact that I would prefer to stand my ground with Ike, how do you handle his pressure and combo game? The one I play against has the dumbest combos I've ever seen
 

xBlitz

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*** smashboards double posted ***

on a side note, my only problems are knowing which way to DI his random combos and how I should interact with my shield vs his pressure. I'm thinking nair and roll are my best options, since I can outplay him in the neutral but lack the MU knowledge to have proper DI when hit
 
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metroid1117

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For Lucario, I try buffing rolls and spotdodges with the C-stick when he hits my shield; his shield pressure is escapable, so once you get him to whiff an attack you can reset the situation. When you're getting combo'd, try SDI'ing or just DI'ing away and down, since "away" should put you farther from Lucario and "down" can hopefully put you on the ground where you can tech. At low %s, you can also CC his attacks and buffer a roll to get away, since Ike doesn't have particularly strong CC options outside of CC -> grab/jab. As for the neutral game, Lucario is pretty difficult to deal with because of the reasons Commander has already stated. FAir is good if you can catch him mis-spacing his dashdancing, but it's otherwise a challenge to space around his dash attack and down+B mix-up. Retreating NAir is a good way to catch him as he down+Bs, but if he's at low enough % then he can CC and punish from there. He can be combo'd from UThrow at low %s and then F/B/DThrow from middle to high %s like any other floaty, but you won't get much outside from tech chases if they know how to DI properly.
 
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xBlitz

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Awesome; thanks you two, hopefully with this I won't be struggling tomorrow. If anyone has the chance, I may be playing on stream tomorrow twitch.tv/acgamesonline I'm expecting top 5 tomorrow with a 50+ turnout; it'll be starting around 12:30 EST, with bracket around 5 pm or so. Wish me luck buds :p
 

Y-L

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How do you guys feel about the Yoshi MU? I personally think it's not very good for Ike. He's very difficult to edgeguard, nair OoS is ridiculously good, and dsmash sends at an angle that say no no no to Ike's recovery at low percents.
 

WhinoTheRhino

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Yesterday I went to my second tournament (The playforkeeps monthly in BC). I did face one yoshi there and although he wasn't that great, I did find one useful trick where counter beats yoshi's side-b egg roll. If you knock yoshi off stage and yoshi starts his double jump, don't bother trying to edgeguard off stage cause yoshi will just go right through your attacks with his super armor.

Anyways, the main reason why I posted was to ask about the toon link and sheik matchup. I lost to both these characters yesterday. Toon link would just throw out bombs, boomerangs, arrows, and nairs and I couldn't get in at all. The sheik player was just better than me in general but I was wondering how do I get out of sheiks combos?
 

Y-L

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Yesterday I went to my second tournament (The playforkeeps monthly in BC). I did face one yoshi there and although he wasn't that great, I did find one useful trick where counter beats yoshi's side-b egg roll. If you knock yoshi off stage and yoshi starts his double jump, don't bother trying to edgeguard off stage cause yoshi will just go right through your attacks with his super armor.

Anyways, the main reason why I posted was to ask about the toon link and sheik matchup. I lost to both these characters yesterday. Toon link would just throw out bombs, boomerangs, arrows, and nairs and I couldn't get in at all. The sheik player was just better than me in general but I was wondering how do I get out of sheiks combos?
I've played a good toon link and what I can tell you is that you can't give him any room to set up. You have to go in and stay in. His projectiles take awhile to send out so if you stay close he won't feel comfortable sending them out. I tend to pick small platform stages against him like Yoshi's or Battlefield. For edgeguarding try to go out there and interrupt him, not when he's in a position to agt a bomb at you though. I'm not sure how metroid does it but I've seen him ledgehop dair and dunk link's up b recovery.

For shiek you just gotta di down and away. I don't like the shiek mu because of his tilt combos and because he can needle your Aether.
 

WhinoTheRhino

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Yeah getting in is definitely good but once he knocks you away for one sec a boomerang instantly comes out. Especially if he knocks you off stage. I guess it's just a bad matchup in general. Thanks though.
 

Y-L

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Yeah getting in is definitely good but once he knocks you away for one sec a boomerang instantly comes out. Especially if he knocks you off stage. I guess it's just a bad matchup in general. Thanks though.
With his boomerang try to understand that he has a choice of angling it or throwing it forward so if you can predict where you think he will predict you will go you wont get hit. It's a lot of preemptive thinking and yeah I agree it's a bad matchup. What problems are you having off stage?
 

WhinoTheRhino

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Once I get knocked off stage toon link has plenty of time to continue his wall of projectiles, making it hard to get back from the ledge. Getting to the ledge isn't too difficult, it's just getting on stage that's difficult.
 

Y-L

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Once I get knocked off stage toon link has plenty of time to continue his wall of projectiles, making it hard to get back from the ledge. Getting to the ledge isn't too difficult, it's just getting on stage that's difficult.
Fortunately Ike has many ledge options. All his aerials are viable as ledgehop attacks for different situations, he has qd to get onstage too. Now this is only if he's close enough to the ledge to use this options. If he's just center stage throwing projectiles then you have to try to wd on stage or ledge jump and waveland on a platform. I tend to go when his boomerang is retreating.
 

PyroTakun

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Can we re-visit the Diddy matchup? I was playing against SmashGod and Junebug's Diddys yesterday and to say it felt one-sided would be an understatement. The bananas honestly weren't that bad, it was the fact that Diddy would just get one hit in and then it was combo to death. I also got my butt kicked by Llod's Lucas, but that matchup felt way more do-able than Diddy.

Wish I had vids to show you guys :/
 

metroid1117

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Can we re-visit the Diddy matchup? I was playing against SmashGod and Junebug's Diddys yesterday and to say it felt one-sided would be an understatement. The bananas honestly weren't that bad, it was the fact that Diddy would just get one hit in and then it was combo to death. I also got my butt kicked by Llod's Lucas, but that matchup felt way more do-able than Diddy.

Wish I had vids to show you guys :/
I got bopped by DLA's Diddy yesterday (2-0 in pools and 2-1 in LR4); we both think it's not a good match-up for Ike, but it's manageable. Diddy's neutral game is really hard to get around, considering that bananas can neutralize QD shenanigans, he's very mobile on the ground, and dash attack is a strong approach, so you need to be in the air a lot and use Ike's momentum from grounded jumps to your advantage; short-hop NAir/FAir can be used to get the occasional poke on Diddy until you get a grab, from which you can use UThrow at low/mid %s to combo into pretty much any aerial except DAir. However, Diddy's punish game is similarly strong and both late UAir and FAir are great at putting Ike in bad positions; Ike has a hard time defending against late UAir in particular if you don't NAir early enough, so be on the lookout for that if you're ever above and behind Diddy. As for edgeguarding, the safest way is to hit Diddy out of side+B instead of challenging his up+B, which can sometimes "Sakurai combo" like Fox's up+B. Much like intercepting Ganon's down+B, you can jump out and FAir where Diddy will side+B if he does it too close to the stage. Edgeguarding up+B is more difficult, but you can try getting invincibility from the edge and then edgehop BAir'ing it or, if he goes low, DAir him from the stage. Again, it's by no means an easy match-up, but it's manageable if you manage to win the neutral and punish him as hard as you can.
 
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Badwolf

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I don't remember if Snake was mentioned already, but I face 4 different Snakes consistently at the weekly tourneys I go to. What's a good way to handle that match-up? Also, any tips fighting against Wario would help. :bee:
 

metroid1117

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I don't remember if Snake was mentioned already, but I face 4 different Snakes consistently at the weekly tourneys I go to. What's a good way to handle that match-up? Also, any tips fighting against Wario would help. :bee:
I can't give you advice against Wario because I go Charizard in that match-up and haven't played it as Ike for a while, but I can say stuff about Snake after playing Sago for some time. The key is to get in close enough where he can't safely pull out a grenade, but not to telegraph your approach to the point where you get tranquilized and stickied; Snake has a pretty poor approach game except for grenade, claymores (DSmash), C4, and tranquilizer, so getting in hampers his ability to set up. Be especially wary of relying on QD and short-hop FAirs to approach, since tranquilizer (especially B-reversed tranquilizer) will stop you in your tracks. However, tranquilizer can't affect you in the air, so you're safe if they fire too early and you haven't landed yet. Another thing to look out for is Snake's crouch - he can't be grabbed while he's crouching and CC'ing negates Ike's jab, so you'll have to nick him with aerials. In addition, Snake's grenades are also a powerful defensive option both in the air and on the ground; if Snake shields while holding a grenade, it's safer to let it detonate and see how Snake reacts under the shield stun rather than to challenge it and possible get set up into a sticky. You can challenge aerial grenade pulls by hitting Snake's lower body, but I wouldn't recommend NAir'ing his upper body since you can generally wait to see where he throws it or let it blow up on himself. Last but not least, don't let your guard down and keep track of where Snake lays his traps, otherwise bad things will happen to you.

Because of Snake's poor aerial mobility, he's really susceptible to juggles - outside of trying to DAir and B-reverse grenades or C4s, there's not really much he can do if you shark under him with UAir, NAir, and UTilts (UTilt is especially good for beating out DAir because Ike's arm is intangible). If you read a grenade pull, you can meet him with UAir since it covers a wide horizontal range while avoiding Snake's grenade. Snake is also floaty enough to get QD combos out of FThrow and BThrow, so those options are also available to you if you don't feel like juggling him. Once you get him offstage, edgeguarding him isn't too hard because of Ike's massive range; jumping out and FAiring covers any high recoveries while walk-off FAir and edge grab -> edgehop BAir/DAir covers low recoveries. If Snake tries to blow himself up with C4, you can try throwing out an aerial in the place where you think he'll try to tech.

Overall, IMO this is a fun match-up because of how punishing both characters can be to each other and how tactical you have to be when approaching. However, if you can get through the traps and keep yourself at arm's reach to prevent Snake from setting up anything, then it's pretty one-sided.
 
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Badwolf

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I can't give you advice against Wario because I go Charizard in that match-up and haven't played it as Ike for a while, but I can say stuff about Snake after playing Sago for some time. The key is to get in close enough where he can't safely pull out a grenade, but not to telegraph your approach to the point where you get tranquilized and stickied; Snake has a pretty poor approach game except for grenade, claymores (DSmash), C4, and tranquilizer, so getting in hampers his ability to set up. Be especially wary of relying on QD and short-hop FAirs to approach, since tranquilizer (especially B-reversed tranquilizer) will stop you in your tracks. However, tranquilizer can't affect you in the air, so you're safe if they fire too early and you haven't landed yet. Another thing to look out for is Snake's crouch - he can't be grabbed while he's crouching and CC'ing negates Ike's jab, so you'll have to nick him with aerials. In addition, Snake's grenades are also a powerful defensive option both in the air and on the ground; if Snake shields while holding a grenade, it's safer to let it detonate and see how Snake reacts under the shield stun rather than to challenge it and possible get set up into a sticky. You can challenge aerial grenade pulls by hitting Snake's lower body, but I wouldn't recommend NAir'ing his upper body since you can generally wait to see where he throws it or let it blow up on himself. Last but not least, don't let your guard down and keep track of where Snake lays his traps, otherwise bad things will happen to you.

Because of Snake's poor aerial mobility, he's really susceptible to juggles - outside of trying to DAir and B-reverse grenades or C4s, there's not really much he can do if you shark under him with UAir, NAir, and UTilts (UTilt is especially good for beating out DAir because Ike's arm is intangible). If you read a grenade pull, you can meet him with UAir since it covers a wide horizontal range while avoiding Snake's grenade. Snake is also floaty enough to get QD combos out of FThrow and BThrow, so those options are also available to you if you don't feel like juggling him. Once you get him offstage, edgeguarding him isn't too hard because of Ike's massive range; jumping out and FAiring covers any high recoveries while walk-off FAir and edge grab -> edgehop BAir/DAir covers low recoveries. If Snake tries to blow himself up with C4, you can try throwing out an aerial in the place where you think he'll try to tech.

Overall, IMO this is a fun match-up because of how punishing both characters can be to each other and how tactical you have to be when approaching. However, if you can get through the traps and keep yourself at arm's reach to prevent Snake from setting up anything, then it's pretty one-sided.

I'll have to test this out, but can you Dtilt his CC and knock Snake in the air for combos? Since I'm guessing he can't get up without Ike getting an attack in there. Also which way do you DI Snake's Up throw as Ike?
 

Y-L

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I'll have to test this out, but can you Dtilt his CC and knock Snake in the air for combos? Since I'm guessing he can't get up without Ike getting an attack in there. Also which way do you DI Snake's Up throw as Ike?
Horizontally, but if you're stickied RIP
 

metroid1117

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I'll have to test this out, but can you Dtilt his CC and knock Snake in the air for combos? Since I'm guessing he can't get up without Ike getting an attack in there. Also which way do you DI Snake's Up throw as Ike?
DTilt hits on frame 14, so it's not particularly good as a CC option. I generally DI away, but Snake can follow up anyway; although it's kind of the "no duh" answer, but try to not get grabbed since it leads to stickies and combos. Thankfully, if Snake stickies, you'll typically be out of hitstun before he can act, so you can sometimes punish him for it instead of jumping out of the combo.

Ok, how do you feel about the Falcon MU?
Personally, I generally dislike playing against Falcons - although QD and QD attack can be used to force confrontation, his dashdance and shffl NAir are very powerful approach options that make it hard for Ike to get in if he spaces right. You can do nasty stuff to him in terms of juggling (especially if you catch him out of a full-hop DAir with UTilt), but he can combo you back pretty easily. In general, I'd say that both are even in terms of the combo game, but Ike has the edge at edgeguarding and Falcon has the edge in the neutral game.
 
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MLGF

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Hah, hah.
No.

Falcon has decent hitboxes and good pressure (and Ike does pressure like ass) and isn't combo'd to death like the spacies when Ike gets in. He wins pretty hard actually (60:40 IMO), especially in the neutral. Nothing unwinnable, but bad enough that I find other characters to be far better.

Now then, how's that Sonic matchup going?
 
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xBlitz

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If you think Ike Falcon is easy, you aren't playing a good Falcon. Good spacing and timing with nair out of his dash dance is nasty, his combos and reads are a little more reliable for killing, and his dash dance in general is further and faster, making it hard to properly approach. You'd have to bait an approach and either nair or tilt. Being stuck in shield against a character with an amazing grab game is not enjoyable, yet getting caught my the nair itself can lead to your death. 55-45 in favour of Falcon, in my opinion.
 

Y-L

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Hah, hah.
No.

Falcon has decent hitboxes and good pressure (and Ike does pressure like ***) and isn't combo'd to death like the spacies when Ike gets in. He wins pretty hard actually (60:40 IMO), especially in the neutral. Nothing unwinnable, but bad enough that I find other characters to be far better.

Now then, how's that Sonic matchup going?
Wtf there's no way it's in Falcon's favor. If the Falcon is just throwing out hitboxes it's your fault for getting hit any of Ike's attacks will outspace them, nair/utilt juggles him hard, his terrible tech roll and lack of OoS options lets Ike easily follow up on him especially on platforms where you can get qd/DACUS->usmash, and because of Ike's power it's easy to get him off stage. Any time Falcon is off stage he should be dead because there are so many ways to edgeguard. Fsmash/ftilt/fair if he recovers high/misses sweetspot, walk off fair or dair depending on where he is if he recovers low. He literally has no way to come back. Ike can counter Falcon's grab speed with his mobility and has much better approach options than Falcon. You're crazy. If anything it's 60:40 Ike's favor.
 

MLGF

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Of course the Falcon isn't throwing out hitboxes, but Falcon is able to pressure Ike and get him in bad situations.
Honest to god, I think it comes down to the neutral and I personally think Falcon does win in this situation.

And Ike:Marth feels 50:50. QD mixups are vital however. I think simply baiting marth to do things ends up working great for Ike in the matchup.

And getting Marth offstage can be really bad for the man.
 
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Y-L

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Ike vs Marth matchup? Marth seems to be the favored swordsman, anybody know how to beat Marth's ***?
I think it's basically 50:50. Marth probably has an upper hand in the neutral game but Marth it's essentially a battle of spacing. Dthrow is pretty effective against Marth and you have to try not to get above him. Make sure you DI his chaingrab at 0% right, down/away and try to tech ASAP. Ike's effective ledge options (drop, up b and get your sword to go as far onto stage as possible, ledgehop aerials, quickdraw onto stage ect) do pretty well against his edgeguards. I find walk off dair very very very effective for edgeguarding Marth so that helps, or just wait on stage if he doesn't sweetspot and fsmash/ftilt/dilt.
 

Y-L

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Of course the Falcon isn't throwing out hitboxes, but Falcon is able to pressure Ike and get him in bad situations.
Honest to god, I think it comes down to the neutral and I personally think Falcon does win in this situation.

And Ike:Marth feels 50:50. QD mixups are vital however.
Care to elaborate on bad situations? Ike puts Falcon in much worse situations, like any time Falcon is above Ike, or on a platform, or off stage.
 

MLGF

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When Falcon is right next to Ike.
If Falcon gets through Ike's range, it's extremely difficult for Ike to escape. Granted, I suppose that's how Ike is meant to play it, but I think Ike gets extremely punished for messing up. The matchup essentially plays like Marth:Falcon, but Ike get's punished much harder then Marth, and the marth:falcon itself is considered "even".
 
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Y-L

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When Falcon is right next to Ike.
If Falcon gets through Ike's range, it's extremely difficult for Ike to escape. Granted, I suppose that's how Ike is meant to play it, but I think Ike gets extremely punished for messing up. The matchup essentially plays like Marth:Falcon, but Ike get's punished much harder then Marth, and that itself is considered "even".
How does Ike get punished harder than Marth? He's heavier and has a much better recovery. On a platform you can shield drop nair easily while on the ground true that it's not a good situation but it's not too bad. Basically you either WD OoS, jump to a platform or roll (ike fortunately has a good roll). I don't think it's fair to say a matchup is in Falcon's favor because you "mess up" and get punished. Ike has a lot of safe pressure against Falcon. Falcon gets punished way harder for making mistakes (i.e. off the ledge).
 
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MLGF

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Ike is much bigger combo food for Falcon. He's slightly larger then Marth and has a easier combo weight, so I do find that Falcon gets more off on Ike then Marth. I mean, offstage I agree that Ike is better off, but Falcon does better onstage. And yeah, Ike is good at edgeguarding Falcon, we both know that's... not surprising.

And Ike does have good spaced pressure, I'm not denying that. I simply feel that Falcon gets a large reward off an opening and Ike gets significantly less. Metroid summed it up, Falcon wins the neutral and Ike wins the offstage, I just think the offstage is not as important and I'd give Falcon the edge. Granted, I think my previous statement of 60:40 may be a bit skewed (Exaggerating via numbers is a bad habit of mine) but Falcon does win based off his rewards on punishes. They both have good mobility for sure, but I think Falcon just beats Ike better in the neutral based off his rewards.
 

metroid1117

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In terms of "out-spacing" as in "out-ranging," then yes, Ike wins in the sense that FAir has more reach than Falcon's NAir. However, range is slightly misleading since in practice, Falcon's NAir comes out so much faster than Ike's FAir (7 versus 17) that it's very difficult to shut out Falcon's shffl' NAir without adequate positioning (at which point Falcon shouldn't have NAir'd in the first place and should've continued to dashdance). On the other hand, Ike doesn't really have any good answers to counter Falcon's dashdance, since Falcon can dash in and shieldgrab sloppily spaced aerials or CC QD attack. In addition, it's much easier for Falcon to keep Ike in bad positions than the other way around, since once Ike is in the air, Falcon can proceed to combo with UAirs whereas Ike's inferior mobility requires him to shark under Falcon instead of comboing out-right. Although I don't think this match-up is in Ike's favor, I also don't think it's impossible to manage - it's reminiscent of Marth-Falcon, except Falcon wins the neutral game against Ike and Ike has an easier time killing Falcon than Marth does.
 
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MLGF

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Here I am, giving really convoluted and vague explanations and Metroid is able to actually explain things properly.
BRB, going back to English 101.

No, but really that sums it up well. Thanks for making me realize how poorly I explain things... and how to consider the matchup.

And just wondering, shouldn't nair cover Ike better then fair? I dunno, I'm much more reliant on that in the neutral against Falcon.
 

metroid1117

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And just wondering, shouldn't nair cover Ike better then fair? I dunno, I'm much more reliant on that in the neutral against Falcon.
NAir works well too, I was too caught up on comparing range to talk about NAir. NAir's initial hit comes out on frame 7 like Falcon's NAir, but I wouldn't rely on it to beat out his attacks since it takes a few more frames to get in front of Ike. You're right though, it's a good tool to cover the areas below and behind you in neutral and gives something for Falcon to watch out for if he plans on sharking with dashdances.
 

Y-L

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Well yeah I don't really agree with challenging his nair with fair because of the startup on fair, nair does a really good job of challenging it with proper timing though.
 
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