Ike's Matchups

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ike is very similar to Marth in how he deals with projectiles. Both can use counter to effectively deal with things like Falco's lasers(Falco is my current favorite matchup),

... You're serious.

You ACTUALLY do this?

The fact that it works is more a testament to your opponents' lack of a punish game than it is to Counter's ability to "deal with projectiles", because it really doesn't.

Ike's nair can be used to swat away most projectiles just like Marth's fair.

Except for the part where Marth's is much quicker, less punishable and overall requires less commitment.

Ike's falling speed is actually really close to Marth's

This is just objectively false. Marth is a significantly floatier character, which is a huge factor in making him harder to combo and giving him a much better recovery than Roy's.

and it just requires good DI to get out of combos.

That is a statement that can be applied to every character, but doesn't take into account what makes characters more susceptible to combos than others. You could tell a Fox player that he just needs good DI to get out of Marth's Uthrow chaingrab, and he will probably tell you to sod off. Ike is a good mix of high enough fall speed, high enough weight and big enough target to be combo'd by a good portion of the cast; their combo moves are able to keep him in hitstun while keeping him close enough to follow up with ease. Falco and the other spacies absolutely go to town on Ike, and even Ganondorf has a Dthrow chaingrab on him. Marth is a combination of lighter and floatier without being too frail that puts him in a far better position in terms of escaping combos - not to mention a side-special that changes his aerial momentum without sending him into freefall. Ike is combo fodder once you get in - this is objective fact.

How intuitive Ike's combo game is depends on he person playing him, for me Ike is the single most natural character in all of smash and is really the only reason I play P:M. If Ike was in Melee I would have no reason to play P:M.

Great. Same here. The fact still remains that Ike is an anti-combo character, by which I mean that outside of jab, he lacks quick or weaker moves with less knockback that keep the opponent close enough for follow-ups and attack strings. Nair is his best combo starter and it is still fairly slow and unsafe on block unless immaculately spaced. Most of Ike's hits send too far unless properly sourspotted, and even then the man packs enough power and range that without Quick-Draw, you're hard pressed for a follow-up besides a pretty situational dash attack.

I actually don't use quick draw in my combos very often because a lot of the people I play against have projectiles or big disjoints that help them camp it out, instead I use it to jump into nairs mostly.

... You're not getting what it means to use Quick-Draw for combos.

Quick-Draw enables Ike to cover ground and reach places with moves he can't reach normally. Re-grabbing floaties or nailing them with reverse bair out of QD is how you use QD in combos - to follow up with an attack while they are still in hitstun. It shouldn't matter if they're holding Falchion or the Blade of Evil's Bane or Galaxia, when using QD for follow-ups involves doing it at times when they can't use those disjoints or projectiles to stuff Quick-Draw.

Your post is also a bit contradictory. You don't use QD for combos, you say, and saying that people camp out QD with their projectiles or disjoints implies that you don't approach with it because you can't. So then, when do you "jump into nairs" with it? After hitting them, while they're in hitstun? ... That's a combo. When you spot an opportunity to start an attack? ... That's an approach.

The point being, Quick-Draw is a very important tool in Ike's combo game, without which his beefy hits are a lot more escapable, with far fewer follow-ups. Without QD, Ike is just a faster version of his Brawl incarnation, which doesn't cut it.

FYI, yes, you're right in that QD is a linear and subpar approach because disjoints, projectiles and other hits can stuff it. Hence why it's not an approach tool, or a situational one at best. It's more used for conditioning and baiting - WD'ing out to bait a reaction to punish, conditioning people to expect QD attack follow-ups so you can grab their shield, etc. Its use in combos can't be disputed, however.

I don't really consider mixups and conditioning in the same vein as reading but that would be a semantical argument which isn't worth discussing.

You need to read your opponent after you try to condition them in order to capitalize on their reactions.

I never feel more committed to Ike's moves than I am with Roy's or Marth's. In fact I feel like I can do less in any given situation with those two than I can with Ike.

Great. Personal feel with a character is totally a thing, yes. It doesn't mean that Ike's moves aren't slower to start-up and aren't more punishable than most of Roy and Marth's options. They can double-fair in a single short-hop, have far lower land-lag and end lag on their moves and in Marth's case, together with his speed, floatiness and lighter weight is far less susceptible to punishment from a wrong move. If Ike mis-spaces against a Falco, he eats 40% or dies. The point is not to compare how limited you feel with a character, but some characters played by players at equivalent levels enjoy a much higher margin of error due to inherent nature of their moveset.

This is a reality with all incarnations of Ike. (Except 2.1)

 

[Commander]

... You're serious.

You ACTUALLY do this?

The fact that it works is more a testament to your opponents' lack of a punish game than it is to Counter's ability to "deal with projectiles", because it really doesn't.

It worked against 3 different Falco's in my last tournament. SoCal is not a weak scene either. You just need to get the distances right when countering.

Except for the part where Marth's is much quicker, less punishable and overall requires less commitment.

I've never once been punished for Nair, not even by top level players. Nair is out for ever and is incredibly safe against projectiles.

This is just objectively false. Marth is a significantly floatier character, which is a huge factor in making him harder to combo and giving him a much better recovery than Roy's.

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1u57q8/database_project_m_30_database/ This lists all the characters fall speeds, walk speeds, grab ranges, etc.. The PMBR supported this list by making it quickly accessible in the SSBPM subreddit. If you take a look at it you can see Ike actually falls slower than Marth and has the same fast fall as Roy.

That is a statement that can be applied to every character, but doesn't take into account what makes characters more susceptible to combos than others. You could tell a Fox player that he just needs good DI to get out of Marth's Uthrow chaingrab, and he will probably tell you to sod off. Ike is a good mix of high enough fall speed, high enough weight and big enough target to be combo'd by a good portion of the cast; their combo moves are able to keep him in hitstun while keeping him close enough to follow up with ease. Falco and the other spacies absolutely go to town on Ike, and even Ganondorf has a Dthrow chaingrab on him. Marth is a combination of lighter and floatier without being too frail that puts him in a far better position in terms of escaping combos - not to mention a side-special that changes his aerial momentum without sending him into freefall. Ike is combo fodder once you get in - this is objective fact.

I've had much worse experiences being combo'd as Marth than I have as Ike. Spacies go to town on everyone and Ike goes to town on them too. I've gotten out of more combos in better positions as Ike than I have as Marth. Marth is just as much combo fodder as Ike is once an opponent gets in and can't do anymore than Ike can in those situations. Ike actually has eruption to help him out of juggles while Marth doesn't.

Great. Same here. The fact still remains that Ike is an anti-combo character, by which I mean that outside of jab, he lacks quick or weaker moves with less knockback that keep the opponent close enough for follow-ups and attack strings. Nair is his best combo starter and it is still fairly slow and unsafe on block unless immaculately spaced. Most of Ike's hits send too far unless properly sourspotted, and even then the man packs enough power and range that without Quick-Draw, you're hard pressed for a follow-up besides a pretty situational dash attack.[/quick]
Nair, jab, dair, throws, tilts, and QD are all great combo starters and have many great follow ups into his other moves. I'm fairly certain I end up using Ike's entire moveset in ever match I play now and find a way to link the overwhelming majority of moves together. Try hitting with the tip of nair or uair if you want weaker moves that combo well.

Great. Personal feel with a character is totally a thing, yes. It doesn't mean that Ike's moves aren't slower to start-up and aren't more punishable than most of Roy and Marth's options. They can double-fair in a single short-hop, have far lower land-lag and end lag on their moves and in Marth's case, together with his speed, floatiness and lighter weight is far less susceptible to punishment from a wrong move. If Ike mis-spaces against a Falco, he eats 40% or dies. The point is not to compare how limited you feel with a character, but some characters played by players at equivalent levels enjoy a much higher margin of error due to inherent nature of their moveset.

I simply do not see the limits on Ike in this situation. The short hop double fair only allows for a little bit more damage to be tacked onto an opponent, damage Ike already gives out. End lag is easy to deal with just correct spacing, which is easy with Ike because unlike Marth or Roy, you don't really need to aim for the sweetspot or anything, you just need to land a hit in and you can start from there. Roy and Marth get ****ed up against perfect Falco's too so I don't see how Ike is more limited.

 

[BlinkIV]

So, guys. What's up with the Olimar MU? I'm almost positive no one else here has played against an Olimar. A good one, at that. I just had the chance to play Oracle's last night, and Olimar actually seems pretty scary.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The first time I played Olimar I blinked. And suddenly I was over 100%.

He can do some pretty nuts things. For what it's worth I thought you adapted pretty well later on in the video.

Also, kudos on showing how low you can go with the QD walljump and still survive on FoD and PS2 o.O

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

The first time I played Olimar I blinked. And suddenly I was over 100%.

He can do some pretty nuts things. For what it's worth I thought you adapted pretty well later on in the video.

Also, kudos on showing how low you can go with the QD walljump and still survive on FoD and PS2 o.O

I love Ike's QD. It went from one of his most useless offensive moves in Brawl to being one of his best in PM. It allows you to chase our opponents with high speed, surprising them with a grab, Nair, Bair, and so many other things. I think it's his single best buff, and probably his best move, not on it's own, but because it allows his best moves like his Nair to be so much more flexible.

 

[BlinkIV]

Ike can go soooo low on stages, it's crazy.

But from what I realize and from studying the videos. Olimar has a pretty strong neutral game. Great grab/pivot grab (Which wrecks Ike's approach if timed right), amazing damage output as well (Esp Purple). I'll try and get some more games in with Oracle's Olimar sometime.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I played a really good link, and the matchup made me sad. Even when I got through the projectile wall, I would just get poked and kept at a far enough distance to not get to be able to do any fast attacks, and close enough so that ground approach options and aerial attacks were constantly interrupted.

 

[BlinkIV]

Definitely Links favor imo. He can zone Ike out really well. Ike's best tool to break Link's defense is the QDA. (Quick Draw Attack). Link isn't too hard to edgeguard either. Most times you want to chase him off-stage and interrupt his glide toss shenanigans.

 

[Ultima777]

Anyone got advice on Ike vs Sonic matchup?

 

[Commander]

Dthrow, Fthrow, and Bthrow into ****. Also hit him with your sword.

 

[metroid1117]

Anyone got advice on Ike vs Sonic matchup?

If you see him spinning at you, you can try clanking it out with QD auto attack. IMO it's an annoying match-up for Ike though, since Sonic's up+B and DAir give him the ability to escape combos and he's really difficult to catch while he's on the ground.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Agreed. He is hard to edgeguard except in specific scenarios where he is knocked low without a jump, and even then your spacing needs to be impeccable. Grabbing a good Sonic is beyond difficult and he has good options to stuff your recovery as well as to juggle Ike. Sonic can go way out there and dunk you with his Fair, so you need to be extremely careful when recovering with Quick Draw. Your best best will be to try to get a good read into QD attack and see how far you can carry that hit. It is an uphill battle for certain.

 

[Commander]

Does anyone have experience with Diddy Kong and Squirtle? They really just ruin the game for me.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Does anyone have experience with Diddy Kong and Squirtle? They really just ruin the game for me.

Diddy kong is really annoying, but for some reason, peanuts will not affect you at all while you're using the QD. He is combod very easily, and grabs are especially effective against him. QD can sometimes be helpful in this matchup, but not too often because of the bananas. you really need to use the bananas back at diddy in 3.0, now that they always cause slipping they are pretty much god tier. As for squirtle, he isnt terribly bad to play against. If its the withdraw thats bugging you, try acting out of shield with a bair or uair to punish.

 

[King of Hoboz]

Squirte, I've found two things that almost always mess up Squirtle. One, counter is super easy to do against his withdrawl. Two, Neutral B is actually really easy/useful to use on Squirtle recovering. His up-b is slow enough to react and armor through/kill Squirtle.

Diddy, this is like a Fox match-up where you just have to try your hardest to swat the Diddy away before he gets on your shield. I need to play my buddy more to really get this match-up solved. Last time, I told him the secret to beating Ike so I could try to learn the match-up better and I was losing/winning by barely without getting any discoveries.

 

[Commander]

Diddy kong is really annoying, but for some reason, peanuts will not affect you at all while you're using the QD. He is combod very easily, and grabs are especially effective against him. QD can sometimes be helpful in this match up, but not too often because of the bananas. you really need to use the bananas back at diddy in 3.0, now that they always cause slipping they are pretty much god tier. As for squirtle, he isnt terribly bad to play against. If its the withdraw thats bugging you, try acting out of shield with a bair or uair to punish.

How am I supposed to use his bananas against Diddy especially when Ike is moving much slower than him and I have little control of where they are initially placed? Can Wario eat his bananas and is that a viable strategy? I'd be fine with learning Wario for just that match up.

 

[King of Hoboz]

QD is useful against Bananas, you have to QD->WD onto them and its really easy to grab them. Ike also has a pretty good Aerial Glide Toss you could experiment with in the match-up. I've recovered about twice thanks to bananas.

 

[Commander]

I feel if I spend my time trying to WD onto the bananas I will get punished for them. I there a video for Aerial Glide Tossing?

 

[King of Hoboz]

Its a simple enough input if that's what you need to know. Its airdodge + c-stick. Airdodge dictates which way you move, c-stick which way you throw.

And that depends on the situation, just see what you can and can't get away with. I tend to get away with it and my Diddy loves just making my shield uncomfortable.

 

[metroid1117]

I feel if I spend my time trying to WD onto the bananas I will get punished for them. I there a video for Aerial Glide Tossing?

You can try catching the bananas while you recover and AGT off of them, kinda like what you can do with Peach's turnips . The only problem is that if you mess up then you die, so...

Ike also has an abnormally long boost toss aka DACIT (dash attack canceled item toss); if you input a DACUS while holding an item, then you'll slide about the length of a DACUS except you'll throw the item instead. If you hit up+A then you'll throw it straight up, but if you throw it diagonally forward + A then you'll throw it in the direction you're facing.

In general though, I would recommend that you either go for banana control when you can or pressure Diddy to the point where he can't put out a banana; control of the ground is very important since it allows you to utilize QD and you having possession of the banana prevents Diddy from moving as freely as he wants to. Diddy is pretty nice combo food since it seems like he's more of a fastfaller than a floaty, so you can use UThrow -> BAir or UThrow -> UAir at low %s. His up+B can be annoying to edgeguard because it has pretty low landing lag afterwards; I'm not that good at edgeguarding him, but it seems like your best bet would be to try swatting him before he lands with FAir and then watching out for the barrels that fly off.

 

[Commander]

I don't have problems with banana's in the air. They bother me on the ground when they've been placed. It seems like only other FE characters know how to edge guard Ike, of course that probably won't be the case for ever. I think I'll try the hyper-aggro route before I try playing around with bananas.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What are opinions on MK? I've figured out some decent combos on him, but I haven't played a good Meta Knight at all.

 

[Commander]

I think the speed of his attacks may give Ike trouble but he is a good combo and kill weight for Ike. I may have only played one once though and it would have been on wifi which doesn't count.

 

[metroid1117]

What are opinions on MK? I've figured out some decent combos on him, but I haven't played a good Meta Knight at all.

I kinda treat MK like a combination of Marth and Sheik - he has Sheik's pressure game and Marth's sword, but he's incredibly easy to combo and light enough that he can't crouch-cancel QD attack or NAir that easily. However, since he's smaller and faster than Marth, it's hard to get in on him unless he messes up; keeping your distance and baiting reactions with QD -> wavedash backward can give you an idea of the options that your opponent prefers, thus letting you know what's best to do against them. Don't QD too close to them though, otherwise you give them the opportunity to come in with dash attack, DTilt, or grab. I haven't fought a good MK in a while, but overall I'd say is difficult due to how mobile he is but manageable because of his weight and lack of a projectile.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

So, can someone lend me some help with the Zelda match-up?

Pop all of her dins fires with nair so she can't set up. Then force her to approach. Since she can't approach, you're golden as soon as she stops trying to throw out dins.

If you pop the dins then she'll change gears and op for teledashing, this is bad for Ike, but not THAT bad. He can cover alot of space with attacks but the best thing for him to do is SH dair. When teledashing and dins doesn't work, she will finally use normal moves that Ike can easily outrange.

What does the MU look like for Ike vs. Falcon?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If you pop the dins then she'll change gears and op for teledashing, this is bad for Ike, but not THAT bad. He can cover alot of space with attacks but the best thing for him to do is SH dair. When teledashing and dins doesn't work, she will finally use normal moves that Ike can easily outrange.

What does the MU look like for Ike vs. Falcon?

SH Dair is literally Ike's worst option for cancelling Din's. SH Nair clanks out any Din's Dair could, plus more, and has far less lag. Being able to act quickly after Nair combined with Zelda's start - up on teleport easily makes it the go-to aerial in the Zelda match-up. (My training partner uses Zelda almost exclusively and I've improved at the match-up a lot since I posted that.)

Ike v/s Falcon is even. Ike wins if he keeps him out, Falcon wins if he can get in. Both combo each other hard but Ike has the edge in recovery and edgeguarding, while Falcon arguably can punish Ike much harder for mistakes and sloppy spaces.

 

[Commander]

Throw Falcon off the edge. If he tries raptor boost, use fsmash. If he tries to use his up special, use eruption. I doubt that the matchup is close to even. I'm sure its in Ike's favor. Falcon is also comboed easily due to being a fast faller.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You forgot the essential first step of 'grab Falcon'.

If you're fighting a Falcon worth his salt, this is not easy.

 

[Commander]

Then hit him with your sword. Suddenly he is off stage.

 

[metroid1117]

You forgot the essential first step of 'grab Falcon'.

If you're fighting a Falcon worth his salt, this is not easy.

I agree. I think this match-up is doable, but as you said, winning the neutral game is not easy. Falcon's punish game is also slightly more lenient than Ike's, since it's much easier for Falcon to keep combos going on Ike at low %s than it is for Ike to keep combos going on Falcon at low %s.

Then hit him with your sword. Suddenly he is off stage.

Falcon is much better at Super Left-Right Bros than Ike is; it's difficult to successfully out-space a Falcon who's good at dash-dancing.

 

[BlinkIV]

Falcon is definitely doable with Ike. I kind of like the MU actually. I think it can be Falcon's favor though, he can play a much more lame game against Ike. Dash Dancing, and baiting you to act all the time, while being faster, and. Having better options in situations.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

SH Dair is literally Ike's worst option for cancelling Din's. SH Nair clanks out any Din's Dair could, plus more, and has far less lag. Being able to act quickly after Nair combined with Zelda's start - up on teleport easily makes it the go-to aerial in the Zelda match-up. (My training partner uses Zelda almost exclusively and I've improved at the match-up a lot since I posted that.)

Ike v/s Falcon is even. Ike wins if he keeps him out, Falcon wins if he can get in. Both combo each other hard but Ike has the edge in recovery and edgeguarding, while Falcon arguably can punish Ike much harder for mistakes and sloppy spaces.

Not SH dair against dins, against the teledash.

 

[Commander]

How do you deal with Marth? I'm starting to consider picking up a secondary just for that match up.

 

[metroid1117]

How do you deal with Marth? I'm starting to consider picking up a secondary just for that match up.

I haven't played in a while, but I think my previous posts about this match-up are still valid:

Marth-Ike is really hard when Marth is in close range and on the ground; it's not really safe to FAir or NAir at that range because Marth can dashdance into a grab to punish it and it's hard to get in with QD because Marth can either DTilt or CC it. IMO, Ike does best in this match-up when Marth is in the air at arm's length, where he can't use DTilt to stop QD and where he can't simply dashdance into a grab. Personally, I don't feel like this is in Ike's favor, but it's doable.

For Marth, you want to avoid challenging his air game unless you are out of range of his FAir or NAir; it's best to either dash away from his aerials and counter with QD attack, retreating FAir, or NAiring from above if you see him using NAir. Marth's dash dance is very scary because he can punish atttoempts to approach with grabs and stop approaches with DTilts, but thankfully he's not that heavy, so he can't CC QD at mid %s. If you're interested, you can reference this close set I had with Dart.

If you still need help with the match-up, you should try posting some matches in the video thread so that we can take a look.

 

[Commander]

If you still need help with the match-up, you should try posting some matches in the video thread so that we can take a look.

Unfortunately I have no access to recording equipment. Hopefully I will be placed on stream with a Marth player at my next tourney though.

 

[Takeshi245]

What is everyone's take on the Ike vs. Mario match-up? I personally think it's close to even because Mario's fireeball pressure forces Ike into being wary about using Quick Draw as an approach. A fireball can lead into a free D-Smash or throw if Mario's close enough. Mario also has some solid mobility and can combo and gimp Ike pretty well thanks to his cape along with his d-throw can lead to some nasty chaingrabs/f-air set-ups. However, Ike does have his amazing range both on the ground and in the air which outclasses Mario's and can also edgeguard Mario well because of how predictable his recovery is.

That's what I have to say so far so any input would be appreciated! :D

 

[MLGF]

Hey...
So I'm just gonna go ask, how the "HECK DO I DEAL WITH FALCON"?

I went to a tourney yesterday and had to fight a Falcon at loser's semi's and Ike just couldn't do anything. Once Ike got in it was good, but Falcon just had so many pressure options that it was impossible for that to happen.

 

[BlinkIV]

Just came back from my first tournament in a while. I lost to a Shiek, the set was really close. Each game was last stock last hit. I always had a solid lead, and then Shiek would happen (get gimped) which is fair. What do you normally do to combat Shiek? I was just focusing on outplaying in neutral, tech chasing, and using every throw as a DI mixup for a combo/kill. As far as punishing Shiek's recovery, I just stayed on the ledge, then got up and D-Smash to punish it each time.

 

[Commander]

What is everyone's take on the Ike vs. Mario match-up? I personally think it's close to even because Mario's fireeball pressure forces Ike into being wary about using Quick Draw as an approach. A fireball can lead into a free D-Smash or throw if Mario's close enough. Mario also has some solid mobility and can combo and gimp Ike pretty well thanks to his cape along with his d-throw can lead to some nasty chaingrabs/f-air set-ups. However, Ike does have his amazing range both on the ground and in the air which outclasses Mario's and can also edgeguard Mario well because of how predictable his recovery is.

That's what I have to say so far so any input would be appreciated! :D

The only projectiles that really gets in Ike's way are Shiek's needle, Falco's laser, or anything else that is really fast. Mario's fireball is too slow to affect quick draw. At worst I jump out and nair you and combo you from there. Fire balls are also stupidly easy to jab through. Cape doesn't do **** in the Ike match up. Ike grabs the ledge from behind very easily and Ike recovers directly at the ledge so cape can't send him away. Ike's weight keeps Mario's fair from killing him easily. Mario's weight is easy for Ike to combo and work with. Mario loses to all characters with large disjointed hitboxes. That's just what happens because of his lack of range.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Work on your spacing. That's really the only advice that applies to characters like Sheik and Falcon. The sword is all that is keeping you from picked up and tossed off, never to come back, but it's hard to properly space against characters who can cross distances like Sheik and Falcon do (and in Sheik's case, have a projectile as well to control space.)

In most match-ups what tends to happen is that Ike has both reach and range advantage - QD opens up a lot of punishment and combo options for Ike, and allows him much more stage presence. This however is nullified by characters with a certain type of projectile - Sheik and Falco being the more egregious examples, with Mario and Link being problematic yet less severe. It's basically about how fast that projectile comes out and how well you can react to it and in Sheik and Falco's cases the answer is "fast" and "not very well".

Crouch cancelling is decent versus Sheik's dash attack and Down Smash is better than Down Tilt for punishing, it is quick enough and can be followed up better imo. Sheik also happens to be a nice combo weight for Ike, so that's good, but her nair, fair and bair are very good 'swat' options. You want to space well against a Sheik that you juggle and keep an eye out for those moves - bair in particular can be punished by a meaty Forward Air from Ike. You want Sheik in the air at nairing distance, and it's also possible to get a couple sourspot Uairs -> Sweetspot Bair/Uair on her. Ike's grab combos all work but its getting the grab that's the problem. Also Fthrow -> DJ Fair is a risky proposition for a kill as Shiek can fair or nair you hard if you go for the hilt, or otherwise space poorly.

Edgeguarding is a matter of grabbig the edge, waiting to see where Sheik lands and then choosing the proper aerial from the ledgehop. Usually fair, but a close enough Sheik should be dair -> sweetspot bair'd and then cha-ching. Usually though you fair her off the other side of the stage and repeat, so work on crossing stages to get to a ledge quickly. Don't bother going too far out versus Sheik unless you're really sure of what you're doing, you don't want HER onstage while you're off, because that usually means death. Recovering her isn't any more painful than other characters with good edgeguarding games; though her downsmash is quick enough that if you Aether onstage, she can shield, drop shield on final hit and then DSmash you. So try to sweetspot if she isn't on the edge. A well-timed Fsmash from Ike can make quick work of a Sheik going for the edge, as there are at least a few frames of vulnerability before she grabs it (unless super perfect) and isn't too punishable if spaced right. Only go for this if you can't get to the ledge in time though.

Here's the big one, though, spaced QD -> Nair actually eats up needles. You have to anticipate it and jump early though, and space in a manner that crouch-cancelled nair won't be punished. Besides that, neutral is a certifiable b*tch.

Don't get hit, in essence. Nothing quite drills that into your mind as fighting Sheik and Falcon.