Ike's AAA(jab)-combo sucks and here is why...

[Yuna]

This is probably not new but I haven't seen anyone mention it and I still see tons of Ike-players spam AAA (though I haven't seen any videos of really, really good Ike-players), but here goes:
At a tournament this past weekend, I was facing an Ike.

As expected, he was spamming AAA. I was Marth. One time when he used AAA (I think it was between the 1st and 2nd hits), I blocked the 1st jab and then shieldshorthopped a Nair. It hit him and he didn't have enough time to hit me.

There you have it. Not only does AAA leave you open long enough for people to shieldgrab you, they leave you open long enough for them to Nair you!

In Melee, Marth's frame data was 4 frames for shorthopping and 3 frames for starting up the nair IIRC. His Brawl-data is probably the same. So you're open for at least 8 frames (though I doubt I was frame-perfect so it's most probably much bigger than that).

And if he can do that, then he can reverse Up B Ike in the face!

Could someone test if you can Nair/Up B/whatever Ike even if he only does the 1st jab and then shields?

Cry, Ike! Cry!

 

[suzuki brawl]

all atks can be grabed,ike AAA combo has super armor frames, good knockback and it's one of his fastest moves.
I don't no why you are so happy,anyway there many ike's players arround be carefull

 

[Yuna]

all atks can be grabed,ike AAA combo has super armor frames, good knockback and it's one of his fastest moves.
I don't no why you are so happy,anyway there many ike's players arround be carefull

Grabbed =/= Getting aerialed in the face.

For most characters, aerials are much stronger and devastating (and can KO much better) than grabs. In order to be grabbable, you only need to be slightly unsafe. If you're getting aerialed in the face, you're being very unsafe.

Imagine jabbing Marth. Now imagine eating a reverse Up B out of it. Serious stuff.

The superarmor frames can't really be that good if I managed to actually Nair him in his face inbetween jabs without being hit myself.

 

[xYz]

i usually never finish a AAA cambo. I do a single jab to other moves, cuz ima "G".

 

[zapdose]

But AAA is one of the only options Ike has (as a relatively fast attack). The rest of his attacks are horribly slow and are very hard to land.

 

[Empy]

LoL, Ikes should just use A and nair comes out pretty quick zapdose. Anyway, just use A and jab cancelling.

Except online, there you should charge your fsmash and wait for someone to lag into it.

 

[Yuna]

i usually never finish a AAA cambo. I do a single jab to other moves, cuz ima "G".

The question remains:
If you do just one jab into shield/running away/spotdodge, can people still shieldhop nair him (if you do a jab into another move, they most probably can)?

And Marth will most probably still be able to Up B your face after a single jab (not tested). So there goes jabbing Marth.

 

[Whiteface]

The question remains:
If you do just one jab into shield/running away/spotdodge, can people still shieldhop nair him (if you do a jab into another move, they most probably can)?

And Marth will most probably still be able to Up B your face after a single jab (not tested). So there goes jabbing Marth.

Well there's the jab cancelling as an option. Pressing down after the jab does reduce lag significantly, thus enabling a fast block, spotdodge or another attack.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

The question remains:
If you do just one jab into shield/running away/spotdodge, can people still shieldhop nair him (if you do a jab into another move, they most probably can)?

And Marth will most probably still be able to Up B your face after a single jab (not tested). So there goes jabbing Marth.

Can't Marth Up-B out of just about any move because of the invincibility frames/fast start up combined with ridiculously low hitstun times? xD

As for Nairing me in the face... *cries*

The jab combo is Ike's bread and butter for anti aggression. I'm *hoping* that only Marth has enough speed/range to do this, but I'm probably wrong, considering almost every Nair in the game is incredibly fast. >.>

Oh humbug, I was REALLY hoping I wouldn't have to pick up Marth to use a realistic swordsman character competitively. Link and Ike just don't have enough going for them. *sigh*

 

[xYz]

The question remains:
If you do just one jab into shield/running away/spotdodge, can people still shieldhop nair him (if you do a jab into another move, they most probably can)?

And Marth will most probably still be able to Up B your face after a single jab (not tested). So there goes jabbing Marth.

i usually jab to grab, and do the forward throw... you know... the one where Ike kicks you in YOUR face.

but no yuna, I haven't had a marth do it to me yet, i'll ask my friend to try it out on me, i'll let you know the results.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Ike's AAA has some pretty effing high priority though. So are these supposed shorthop neutral airs going to even connect, should the Ike choose to continue his AAA after the first hit is shielded, or will they just get stuffed by the kick? Marth's will, sure...but then again he's Marth.

 

[Yuna]

Well there's the jab cancelling as an option. Pressing down after the jab does reduce lag significantly, thus enabling a fast block, spotdodge or another attack.

The question remains: Is it fast enough? Could someone test this? The soonest I can test it is on Friday. If you try to go from a jab to another attack, I can guarantee you you'll be eating a Nair in the face as that's even slower than a jab into another jab.

This still cuts down Ike's options by a lot. After the 1st jab, he has to cancel it unless he wants to eat a shieldgrab or a Nair. If he goes into the 2nd jab, then all hope is lost as he can't cancel it.

Can't Marth Up-B out of just about any move because of the invincibility frames/fast start up combined with ridiculously low hitstun times? xD

No. Not everything.

As for Nairing me in the face... *cries*

Yes, cry those sweet tears!

The jab combo is Ike's bread and butter for anti aggression. I'm *hoping* that only Marth has enough speed/range to do this, but I'm probably wrong, considering almost every Nair in the game is incredibly fast. >.>

No, pretty much everyone can do it. Most Nairs are around as fast as Marth's (3 frames of startup) and his shorthop should still be around 4 frames (which is also quite common unless you're a slow character). If they're close enough when you jab them, they should be able to Nair you in the face (or Nair/Dair/Fair depending on who they are).

Oh humbug, I was REALLY hoping I wouldn't have to pick up Marth to use a realistic swordsman character competitively. Link and Ike just don't have enough going for them. *sigh*

That's what you get when the game is unbalanced and badly designed .

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

So...anyone got an answer to my question here?

Ike's AAA has some pretty effing high priority though. So are these supposed shorthop neutral airs going to even connect, should the Ike choose to continue his AAA after the first hit is shielded, or will they just get stuffed by the kick? Marth's will, sure...but then again he's Marth.

 

[Yuna]

So...anyone got an answer to my question here?

The answer to that can be very long if I have to go through just what priority is in this game. But if they're close enough for the hitbox of their Nair (or other fast aerial) to actually hit Ike, then, yes, Ike take a nair to the face!

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

So...anyone got an answer to my question here?

I'm going to assume Yuna's right about everyone being able to do it.

Not because of the post count, but because he probably went to the trouble of testing it, or has the experience to back up his words. He always does. xD

 

[Eddy01741]

Um, how about jab cancel?

It's like this with the AAA combo:

A
press down on control stick (or press shield, but down on CS is a lot easier)
A
ditto
A

Yeah, makes it a bit faster, dunno if it's fast "enough" becauase I can't really test it (weekday+no friends over), so somebody else can try.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No. Not everything.

Almost everything. 6 frame startup with invincibility means anytime he's not in stun. It doesn't matter how fast your attack is if he's able to move at all. He can up B out of Marth's side B combo (as in, the one people keep saying is too good).

No, pretty much everyone can do it. Most Nairs are around as fast as Marth's (3 frames of startup) and his shorthop should still be around 4 frames (which is also quite common unless you're a slow character). If they're close enough when you jab them, they should be able to Nair you in the face (or Nair/Dair/Fair depending on who they are).

This is true. It's not just Marth that can do this, but Marth can do so much more. I actually want to test if Marth can up B out of the jab combo even if he get's hit. As long as there's at least 1 frame that he's not in stun he should be able to do it, and that window between the 2 and 3rd hit looks like a perfect spot.

 

[Yuna]

Almost everything. 6 frame startup with invincibility means anytime he's not in stun. It doesn't matter how fast your attack is if he's able to move at all. He can up B out of Marth's side B combo (as in, the one people keep saying is too good).

The question is not if Marth can do it, the question is if Marth can hit with it if people shield after their moves (as they should if he can Up B after them).

This is true. It's not just Marth that can do this, but Marth can do so much more. I actually want to test if Marth can up B out of the jab combo even if he get's hit. As long as there's at least 1 frame that he's not in stun he should be able to do it, and that window between the 2 and 3rd hit looks like a perfect spot.

I'll try to test this come Friday. Tell if me you test it before then.

 

[Trozz]

Good Ikes make use of f-air and u-tilt.
Lousy Ikes spam u-smash and our lovely jab combo.

 

[Yuna]

Good Ikes make use of f-air and u-tilt.
Lousy Ikes spam u-smash and our lovely jab combo.

How is that good? I'm not an Ike-expert since I just memorize what moves look like and not what their inputs are most of the time but I'm fairly sure Fair and U-tilt are hella slow and much more unsafe. I mean, you Fair me, I Fair/Nair you out of shield. You U-tilt me, I can even shielddrop smash you if I have a smash that's fast enough (IIRC).

 

[DraginHikari]

Good Ikes make use of f-air and u-tilt.
Lousy Ikes spam u-smash and our lovely jab combo.

Fair makes a better spacer when used in fast falling and short hopping and not so much a straight in your face combo like people tend to use the jab for if you use fair alot or in the wrong way it very easy to get knocked around.

U-tilt seems to have very few uses, at least that I've noticed, you sometimes can follow it up with something, but due to my lousy reflexes it doesn't work too well anyway

U-smash is fine but requires a ridculious amount of timing to actually use in 1 v 1. In my online matches it's a godsend because of the range of the around completely around Ike.

As far as this issue I have seen it happen but usually no one seems to bother to actually attack out of it, most people just seem to dodge or move back when it happens and I usually end up scatch-free.

I suppose for someone who rarely faces someone extremely good or is unable to travel the tournments, this probably is a moot point for me because I've never seen anyone utilize the 'I'M OPEN' in that particular situation.

 

[Whiteface]

I woldn't lie, this is somewhat a downer. People need to test this right away as well.

That said if this is proven then yes, Ike's jab is probably near obsolete, unless you catch someone off-guard and they don't respond in time.

Sigh, the more people dig deeper into this game, the more it's becoming an insult to serious gamers. I guess every franchise has to go through this right? :-( I mean even Tekken survived part 4 right? Right?

*someone please pat me on the back*

 

[Yuna]

Fair makes a better spacer when used in fast falling and short hopping and not so much a straight in your face combo like people tend to use the jab for if you use fair alot or in the wrong way it very easy to get knocked around.

We're talking about on block here, not on hit. We're talking how ridiculously unsafe Ike is on block since even AAA can earn him aerials in the face.

U-tilt seems to have very few uses, at least that I've noticed, you sometimes can follow it up with something, but due to my lousy reflexes it doesn't work too well anyway

Same as above.

U-smash is fine but requires a ridculious amount of timing to actually use in 1 v 1. In my online matches it's a godsend because of the range of the around completely around Ike.

If the opponent is close enough, they can actually shieldgrab Ike out of shield. And it's not hard to spotdodge on reaction.

As far as this issue I have seen it happen but usually no one seems to bother to actually attack out of it, most people just seem to dodge or move back when it happens and I usually end up scatch-free.

They just don't wanna risk it with a mistimed spotdodge.

 

[DraginHikari]

If the opponent is close enough, they can actually shieldgrab Ike out of shield. And it's not hard to spotdodge on reaction.

It depends on who your talking to I suppose. Believe it not some people actaully have trouble with that.

 

[Black Waltz]

all atks can be grabed,ike AAA combo has super armor frames, good knockback and it's one of his fastest moves.
I don't no why you are so happy,anyway there many ike's players arround be carefull

FALSE. do not question yuna's authoritay.
and btw, ike's AAA does NOT have super armor.

 

[Yuna]

And not all attacks can be grabbed if spaced properly or if they have sufficient shield knockback. The fact that even if Ike spaces his AAA-jab combo, he can still get faired/naired in the face just makes it extremely unsafe.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The question is not if Marth can do it, the question is if Marth can hit with it if people shield after their moves (as they should if he can Up B after them).

Well that depends. Marth can up B out of any attempts at jab combos because he's invincible all the way until the attack actually comes out (which it comes out in 5 frames btw. 6 is with the jump cancel from shield). However, if they're only doing the first jab and then shielding I think they're safe (if they hit you that is. If you shield it I think you might still be able to up B them).

I wouldn't be able to test this until saturday myself, so...have fun Yuna.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Even if this is true, how many people are going to actually be able to see A and, IF THEY BLOCK, short hop nair on reaction? That's very few frames to execute. Were you able to consistently do that? I just don't see how the gap in between the first A and the second is big enough for even an elite player to pull off enough to gimp one of Ike's best moves.

Up Tilt is far from useless. Great for chasing after a down/up throw and has pretty good priority upclose and isn't too unsafe on block.

Fair is probably Ike's second best move besides Jab. On contrary to what you may think, if spaced properly the move is pretty much unpunishable.

Oh, and just spamming jab is pretty crappy. I do jab to punish, beat out spot dodging and air dodging, and if I anticipate someone getting outpriotized by it. Jabbing when the opponent blocks is not something a good Ike should do a lot. Sometimes your Jab will be blocked, but if it's constantly being blocked you arent using it properly.

 

[Yuna]

Even if this is true, how many people are going to actually be able to see A and, IF THEY BLOCK, short hop nair on reaction? That's very few frames to execute. Were you able to consistently do that? I just don't see how the gap in between the first A and the second is big enough for even an elite player to pull off enough to gimp one of Ike's best moves.

Let's see... I can do it. So I'd wager any Marth worth his salt.

His A is fast, sure. Too fast to perfect shield on reaction perhaps (I don't know, I don't have the frame data). But it's not fast enough for people not to be able to SH Nair on reaction if they block it and he As again. Let's not forget that Marth's (and a lot of people's) full jump is only 1 frame longer (I think). I'm gonna test if that works as well but I can't see why not since Ike lags quite a bit.

Ike has a noticable pause inbetween the 1st and 2nd As.

Up Tilt is far from useless. Great for chasing after a down/up throw and has pretty good priority upclose and isn't too unsafe on block.

U-tilt is not useless. It's just really, really unsafe in my book. The poster I quoted was speaking of it as if it were a great move to approach with/shieldpressure/poke with.

Fair is probably Ike's second best move besides Jab. On contrary to what you may think, if spaced properly the move is pretty much unpunishable.

If you land and shield after, yeah, most of the time. So it's basically an approach-move that forces you to shield afterwards.

Oh, and just spamming jab is pretty crappy. I do jab to punish, beat out spot dodging and air dodging, and if I anticipate someone getting outpriotized by it. Jabbing when the opponent blocks is not something a good Ike should do a lot. Sometimes your Jab will be blocked, but if it's constantly being blocked you arent using it properly.

"Jab to punish"? What the heck is that? Jab to another move other than the 2nd jab? That's even more unsafe than simply jabbing twice (and it'll most definitely earn you a Nair/Fair to the face).

This game promotes shieldcamping. Unless people are leaving themselves open a lot, you're not gonna get a lot of jabs in. And I'm not 100% sure but I might've actually been able to Nair Ike as Marth on hit when he jabbed me. I'll have to test that out as well come Friday.

 

[Eddy01741]

Well, anybody wanna try using jab cancel as I described at the top of the page? Seriously, it actually works, makes the lag between jab and kick about half as long (which isn't very long anyways). Anyhow, just to tell you, the utilt is actually a really underrated move, it comes up actually decently quick (not as quick as the jab, but faster than most of Ike's other moves), the only problem I have with it is, whenever I try to do a utilt, I end up doing a usmash because I smash the control stick up, but when I do get it right (at the right situation) it's very useful.

 

[VersatileBJN]

- You intentionally and consistently punished the Ike player with SH nair for blocking the first Jab? Thats pretty crazy

- One thing that must be pointed out is that there are STILL Ike players who AAA combo via tapping rather than holding. While I have not tested your situation out yet, and won't be able to do for a while, most of the time if Ike HOLDS jab and they are in the air he will keep shuffling back and forth between initial jab and 2nd jab until the engine feels they are close enough to the ground for the 3rd hit to connect. Make sure to test AAA(held) when you do it. It might help the Ike.

- Jab to punish..lolz. Im surprised you dont know what punishing is since you play other fighting games. Its probably how I worded it. You probably think I mean "jab into a punishing move". No, I mean that Ike's jab is his best overall punisher due to it's speed.

If I'm Lucas and you up smash me with Fox and I shield, I can punish you hard with forward smash. Ike has no move with that kind of power and speed(down smash is very good, but isn't as quick), so most of the time using Jab is the best option to punish things.

I was simply stating Ike players should really only "spam" Jab in order to punish blocked moves, beat out spot dodging(as in hold A if you anticipate a spot dodge, Ike will finish the jab combo as soon as the opponent stops spot dodging most of the time), to punish an air dodge close to ground, and to bail out of laggy moves that the opponent is too slow to punish.

- Actually, Fair is safe if spaced properly even if Ike does not block. When I said Jab is his best move overall, I take that back. A short hop fair with momentum floating away from the opponent is his best move. If they block, dodge,whatever they are too far away to hurt him. If they try to rush in, doing it again, blocking,spot dodging, jabbing, etc all work well.

- Ike's best pure approach move isn't fair, but nair. If spaced properly it cannot be shield grabbed and he also recovers really quick from it upon landing.

SH nair, AAA

SH nair, spot dodge

SH nair, SH back fair

SH nair, block
etc

 

[Eddy01741]

Well, it could be argued that his best approach is the RAR+Bair, because of it's awesome power, but it's a bit harder to target (horizontal slash vs. a HUGE vertical slash as with the Fair or Nair), but it comes out really fast, and is plenty powerful.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Bair is a great move, but a better APPROACH than nair? I don't see how. Nair is so versatile and has a much bigger hit box

 

[KosukeKGA]

I bet Yuna is mad that he lost the tournament to this Ike.

 

[bigafromusclekid]

Jab canceling is fast enough.

Fairing and uptilting maximizes in range and priority, so if you're good at hitting your attacks, it shouldn't be a problem using it. also, grand viper is another suitable approach against most characters.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Grand Viper is such a stupid name! QD bruh! Quick Draw.

QD is good vs everyone, just to different extents. AAA, QD is good to increase your options when following up rather than dashing and being forced to come to a halt before u can anything but a dash attack.

 

[Eddy01741]

Bair is a great move, but a better APPROACH than nair? I don't see how. Nair is so versatile and has a much bigger hit box

That's exactly what I'm saying, with the RAR+Bair, your chances of hitting the opponent are a lot lower, since it's a horizontal slash vs. a vertical slash (in the fair and nair), so if you screw up, you'll be punished 9 times out of 10. Against smaler character like Olimar, it's not even worth trying to do the RAR+Bair though, your chances of hitting are almost none unless they happen to jump as well. Here's my opinion on each of the approaches:

Fair: Slow pre and post lag, but good damage and knock back, huge range (hits from above you to slightly behind you) spaces out if used correctly

Nair: Very little pre and post lag, decent damage but sub-par knock back (compared to all of Ikes moves at least), REDICULOUS range, it's like 270 degree swipe, also sort of spaces out

RAR+bair: Very little pre lag, low post lag, very good damage (for an aerial) and very good knock back (higher than the fair), tiny range though, it's a horizontal slash, but you have to be in the air to do it, so it's hard to put on the target as an approach

QD-> Utilt/AAA/Grab: Large pre lag, but it's a ranged move, so it doesn't matter, post lag is very little if you don't hit, a pretty long post lag if hit (including dodge and shield), the objective is to land right next to them, and continue up with a grab, utilt, or AAA, defintely the hardest to master, have to have the timing just right to make sure you stop right before the opponent.

 

[Dark Sonic]

- You intentionally and consistently punished the Ike player with SH nair for blocking the first Jab? Thats pretty crazy

No it's not. Especially if you up B instead of Nair, as you have a bigger window to pull that off (7 frames larger to be precise). It's pretty easy to do that on reaction/

- One thing that must be pointed out is that there are STILL Ike players who AAA combo via tapping rather than holding. While I have not tested your situation out yet, and won't be able to do for a while, most of the time if Ike HOLDS jab and they are in the air he will keep shuffling back and forth between initial jab and 2nd jab until the engine feels they are close enough to the ground for the 3rd hit to connect. Make sure to test AAA(held) when you do it. It might help the Ike.

That's not the problem. The problem is that if the first jab is shielded and Ike goes to do the second, he can be hit out of it. Since we are assuming the person shielded the first jab, that means they are automatically in range for the second jab.

- I was simply stating Ike players should really only "spam" Jab in order to punish blocked moves, beat out spot dodging(as in hold A if you anticipate a spot dodge, Ike will finish the jab combo as soon as the opponent stops spot dodging most of the time), to punish an air dodge close to ground, and to bail out of laggy moves that the opponent is too slow to punish.

This is true. We're just saying that QD->Jab is no longer a legitamate approach.

Also, Marth can up B out of the jab combo even if he is hit. Wow, Marth is just getting even more of an advantage in this matchup.

But seriously, just know that if your jab is shielded you are in for some punishment. I still want to see if they can drop their shield and tilt you before you can jab cancel (that would suck).

 

[bananaman]

well who were you, did they have a big grab reach? it's one of ike's quicker attacks and i never have a problem using it

 

[Dark Sonic]

well who were you, did they have a big grab reach? it's one of ike's quicker attacks and i never have a problem using it

He was Marth. And he didn't grab him out of it, he Nair'd them out of it. That's a big difference, considering Nair is one of Marth's kill moves (when tipped).