if you were part of the buff/nerf patch team, what changes will you give megaman

[Knight Dude]

Yeah. I'm happy with Mega Man. He's a pretty good character overall. Nice to see him as a mid-tier fighter at the very least. However, seeing that he could easily have his few flaws fixed by making one or two move have less lag. Particularly Flame Sword and Charge Shot. That'd make him decently better already. So, yeah, it's a bit annoying when other characters get some of their moves buffed that needed it. Still, I can't complain too much. Many other mains got it worse than staying the same for a good while.

I don't know if we'll see another patch, but who knows.

 

[Greward]

Wow, way to sell Megs short. The updates this time felt... random, and apart from Marth and Lucina getting a couple of things, not much was changed. Besides, we don't know if there will be any balance updates in the future.

It was just an obvious example that there are worse characters who don't get buffs either. Rock is clearly better than jigglypuff.

And being mid tier isn't all that great, I'd love for Mega Man to be a national-level threat character. Is it that bad to wish for a buff in a character with not outstanding viability?

It's not like he would become broken if fair did 1% more damage or fsmash had a bit less startup or endlag.

 

[Mega-Spider]

It was just an obvious example that there are worse characters who don't get buffs either. Rock is clearly better than jigglypuff.

And being mid tier isn't all that great, I'd love for Mega Man to be a national-level threat character. Is it that bad to wish for a buff in a character with not outstanding viability?

It's not like he would become broken if fair did 1% more damage or fsmash had a bit less startup or endlag.

No, it's not bad at all. We still don't know if balance updates are coming. The main thing I want to know is how buffs and nerfs are decided. There are characters like Sheik that are hailed as "too good" yet she has gotten off scott free, and characters like Samus that needs buffs yet she's barely gotten anything. This update was the most random, so at this point, the team just probably picks at random to see what needs to be changed.

 

[Greward]

No, it's not bad at all. We still don't know if balance updates are coming. The main thing I want to know is how buffs and nerfs are decided. There are characters like Sheik that are hailed as "too good" yet she has gotten off scott free, and characters like Samus that needs buffs yet she's barely gotten anything. This update was the most random, so at this point, the team just probably picks at random to see what needs to be changed.

The team should disband, sakurai has said that the team can't be kept together forever, and he also said he has to work onto his next project (unknown as of now).

Since they stopped doing DLC, most probably the team will disband since they have nothing to do and so there shouldn't be anyone left to do the balance patches.

Unless Sakurai's next project is Smash 4 NX I think it's unlikely that we get another balance patch.

 

[Sorichuudo]

No, it's not bad at all. We still don't know if balance updates are coming. The main thing I want to know is how buffs and nerfs are decided. There are characters like Sheik that are hailed as "too good" yet she has gotten off scott free, and characters like Samus that needs buffs yet she's barely gotten anything. This update was the most random, so at this point, the team just probably picks at random to see what needs to be changed.

This has been a problem since The first balance patch. No one knows what the team is thinking when balancing the game. They dont look only at the ffa gameplay, after all Luigi and Diddy lost their dthrow BS,so they must take 1v1 into consideration as well.
But you still have stuff like Rosalina killing off the top at super early %, sheik with her recovery that you cannot challenge and her frame data wich is one big middle finger to almost the entire roster. And despite both being used a lot, they still managed to evade nerfa for the most part.
You really cant tell what they are thinking.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Yeah. I'm happy with Mega Man. He's a pretty good character overall. Nice to see him as a mid-tier fighter at the very least. However, seeing that he could easily have his few flaws fixed by making one or two move have less lag. Particularly Flame Sword and Charge Shot. That'd make him decently better already. So, yeah, it's a bit annoying when other characters get some of their moves buffed that needed it. Still, I can't complain too much. Many other mains got it worse than staying the same for a good while.

I don't know if we'll see another patch, but who knows.

Yeah, those are simple fixes, yet we haven't gotten those yet. Then again, characters like Samus need many more fixes, and that N-air buff didn't help her much. Then again, our Leaf Shield buff was a great one, so even if we don't get massively buffed, that one buff we did get is at the very least solid, especially since I use Leaf Shield for extra pummel damage and occasionally, gimping.
We still don't know if we're getting patch updates, so who knows? Maybe we'll get something pretty good? I know it's wishful thinking at this point, but I don't think we should resort to pessimism as a first response. Disappointment is fine, but it's not like we're low or even garbage tier. Don't get me wrong, I too want to see Megs be considered a national threat, but it's not like Megs can't be played well at all. Greward is ranked 1 on the Spanish Smash 4 Power Rankings, and if he's not right now, he was at one point, and he's one of us. That's a pretty big feat if you ask me.

 

[TheQtoAllAs]

The least Mega could get now is a huge decrease on Charge Shot's ending lag (since both Bayonetta and Corrin have overall faster and stronger f-smashes with just about the same range while dealing more shieldstun and generally being safer on shield without danger of being reflected ) so it keeps its niche as a projectile long ranged smash attack.

That and I'd like to see Crash Bomber becoming a viable kill option at ~150%or so since its knockback becomes more or less useless at higher percentages except for occasionally gaining stage control. Crash Bomber could use a lot of buffs, but above all it needs to threaten the opponent to act at higher percentages with something dangerous.

Mega is a very balanced character on his own but it feels like he's falling behind on a couple of areas with each update.

 

[nedskii-]

Ever go to cover yourself with a metal blade and your opponent catches it because they did an aerial or dash attack at that MAGICAL moment? so then you get combo'd and lose stage control, etc. I think if only mega man could have his metal blade it would be huge. This would prevent sheik's just camping me with needles with my metal blade. Such a small change with large benefits

 

[Sorichuudo]

So, there is that new Famitsu article or whatever about sakurai taking (some much needed) vacations.
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/02/09/famitsu499/
You guys think its the end for balance updates then??

It would make sense since the creator would be no longer there, guess the team will disband as well, like with Kid Icarus Uprising.

If so, well, sucks, but guess we will just have to make due with what we have and stand no chance against sheik.

Still, i would like at least one more in order to tone down the new DLC's down B, and considering that in this patch they actually gave relevant buffs to Marth, maybe there was hope for Mega and other characters.

 

[Knight Dude]

So, there is that new Famitsu article or whatever about sakurai taking (some much needed) vacations.
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/02/09/famitsu499/
You guys think its the end for balance updates then??

It would make sense since the creator would be no longer there, guess the team will disband as well, like with Kid Icarus Uprising.

If so, well, sucks, but guess we will just have to make due with what we have and stand no chance against sheik.

Still, i would like at least one more in order to tone down the new DLC's down B, and considering that in this patch they actually gave relevant buffs to Marth, maybe there was hope for Mega and other characters.

Probably. But you never know, we might have something happen again. Doubt it though.

Still happy with what we got. Just wish my 3DS wasn't busted at the moment.

 

[TheGlove]

Disclaimer I have no professional training in game balance nor am I a particularly high level player at the moment.

I think the main issue of mega man is an imbalance in his playstyle. Mega man's design seems to be that he is a very safe character with a relatively low damage output but is able to somewhat mitigate this with some burst damage conversions and clever projectile and item play. His flaw is supposed to be that he struggles at killing, most of his strong moves have either high cool down or startup, and while he does have some kill confirms that have not yet been fully implemented into his game plan, they are not particularly easy to do consistently.

My issue for mega man is that his safety and killing issue do not seem totally in balance. Mega man should have trouble with character who can penetrate his defenses, but in the case of sheik he worse match up, it is especially annoying that she is in general safer, has a higher damage output due to having very reliable combos, and has an easier time killing in general.

Safety.

Mega man's forward air does not due very much damage, is not super fast, and does not have good landing lag. Some part of this should be touched. Due to what I believe his design philosophy to be, landing lag would be the most likely target for a reduction. I personally feel that making this move come out on frame 7 instead of 9 would also not be a bad change either.

Damage

We all know that mega man's smashes are a little lack luster. Fsmash and Dsmash are the offenders here.

Fsmash

I believe that this move should have much less startup and maybe the projectile should move faster. The endlag should remain the same. Fsmash is not a particularly powerful move, but it is really annoying when someone whiffs a smash attack, and its faster to run up and upsmash rather that attempt to fsmash them. By reducing the startup, this move may be usable in certain setups as well as useful as a surprise attack, pivot fsmash anybody? With the end lag intact, however, if you whiff this move or they predict and powershield, you will still get punished for it.

DSmash

This move in my opinion should just be re purposed. At the moment its strong but slow, frame 17 for the strong hitbox, and way to laggy to throw out in most situations. Worst of all, however, is that it kills off the top. Up Smash and Up Tilt do that already. I think this move should come out earlier, but instead of being a early kill move it should be a damage dealer with little knock back growth. I believe that early demos have this move being a multi hit that lasts the entire animation, that's what I would make this move do.

Those are the biggest things I think would be good quality of life changes that wouldn't upset his design much. I didn't add anything that would help his disadvantage state much because I think Mega is supposed to be punished for letting someone get in on him, and I think our landing mix ups are reasonable.

Buffs that I think would just be cool. Dair auto cancels out of a rising full hop, acting out of neutral special faster, acting out of up special faster.

 

[jchaosmaster]

Only thing I would buff would be adding a small knock if you are point blank when landing the third walking and and air attacks. Not enough to combo just to give him added insintive to land all three lemons at super close range.

 

[Megamang]

The air attack (nair) already does that, and any hit does that if you start standing still (making it a jab).

The good thing about that buff is that with improved pellet practice you can make it a reality yourself =D

 

[Mega-Spider]

Okay, so after looking at the MU thread (which BTW, I love reading what you guys have to post), I can say that Megs is in a solid place and is a pretty good character. While reading the MU thread, I noticed that a couple of people were talking about what Megs' position is right now.

First of all: Are you saying Mega Man is not viable right now? I mean, considering Scatt's decent results and the fact the characters is not really "checked" by any other (Maaaaaybe Mario to an extended, and even then having more damage against Mario is not going to cause anything) makes me think it doesn't feel quite right to consider him "not viable".

Do you probably need a second? Yes, that's probably true, but in this game there's hardly characters that are totally viable without the need of a second, even some of the top tiers are in need of them(Rosa probably needs a second against Cloud for example).

Second: If Mega Man did more damage, that would not make him viable, that would make him more polarizing. And you do not want that for the health of the game.

Remember: Damage means both Knockback AND hitstun are increased. Do you want to deal against lemons that you can't shield if you eat the first one? A frame 4 BAir that kills even earlier and might possibly combo into itself? UAirs that do some disgusting damage with you unable to escape from them?

Even if somehow he remains the same against some of the top tiers, imagine being a low tier character against him. Imagine MUs like Luigi (Which is already a pain for him) being even harder because all the Mega Man player has to do is press Jab 3 times and he gets not only some space, but that also do a decent ammount of damage while being EXTREMELY safe. Not fun. At all. You do not want that.

I feel like right now, Mega Man is in an almost perfect balance spot. The risk-reward ratio and skill required for him is a pretty good example of balance, since while he is unique, is not unique enough to shut down everyone else, nor is he way too differents that somehow makes him useless.

And he feels exactly like playing a Mega Man game. Some thinking, some shooting, some risk and some reward. Just how I like my MM games.

The only thing that maaaaybe he's undertuned are Smashes, but it's something that I can honestly deal with.
_________________________________________________________________________________
I'll post my thoughts in the Cloud MU later, I tend to practice with some Cloud users so it might be useful.

@Drarky mentions that Mega Man is almost balanced completely. I agree that Mega Man is one of the most balanced characters in the game, but his smash attacks could be better, and by better, I mean have less ending lag. That alone would make them that much better.

Well put. We see that Scatt can put in work, even against Anti.

That means this character is only held back by its players, which is a good thing and can reasonably be said about most of the cast. Unless you are playing a character with almost all bad MU (you'd know who you are) then you are more than likely tournament viable. Especially at the local or regional level, Megaman is a good choice. He actually, at least from what I've seen, does better than 42nd in results. Especially in Japan.


Yes they often have 2ndaries, but Megaman himself is a powerful secondary. I personally like opening with Mewtwo or Greninja sometimes, just because they are safer picks against some characters... But nothing makes me smile more than a Diddy or (god bless them) a luigi/villager player, not ready for my 2ndary doom at all.

Mega is in a good place.

The thing with Mega Man is that his strategies and means of success are so different from the majority of the cast, it's not surprising (and yet it hurts to look at every time) to see people play him the way you aren't supposed to play him. Megs is someone that requires time, patience, and supreme knowledge of his mechanics to be successful with. This is basically how Classic Mega Man works. Sure, you may get the basic idea of what to do, but if you don't know how far Mega Man can jump, how to use the weapons to your advantage, or his limitations to what he could do, you're not getting very far. This is why you see less Mega Men and more Mario's or Cloud's since they require a lot less knowledge to be successful with, and are easy to pick up. Mega Man is the antithesis to that, and in all honesty, winning with Mega Man is far more satisfying than winning with the aforementioned characters. There's nothing wrong with winning with Mario or Cloud, but seeing as how the majority of the cast falls to them, it doesn't feel rewarding, as much as it does feel like it was expected. With Mega Man, since he has a solid MU spread with most characters being even with him, it feels more fair to win with Megs because of his more balanced MU spread.

I do agree with the general opinion that Megs should get either an increase in damage output or have reduced endlag on his Smash attacks. I'm fine if either one of those makes the cut. I feel this is why Megs doesn't get buffs. He wasn't in a position Mewtwo or Samus were in; characters that were so bad that they HAD to be buffed. Rather, Mega Man has a lot of hidden potential that's going to take a lot of time to figure out, and ScAtt is one of the first to discover what Mega Man is truly capable of. Getting buffs would definitely help, and I'm hoping we do get addressed at some point.

 

[Megamang]

The issue with buffing a zoning based character, is that some characters already have massive trouble with him, and that would only get worse if he became better, or even more prevalent.

From a balancing team's standpoint, it is frustrating to buff Ganon/D3/Kirby/Insert low mobility character here, and see that they still simply cannot deal with lemons at all. Imagine if lemons were better? That'd be broken against low mobility characters.

And, imagine, if instead of having to break through the lemon salvo, it was a lemon + Fsmash salvo? Fsmash is ridiculously laggy because it is a projectile that does massive damage and knockback. If it were safe in any MU, we would just see lots and lots of fsmashes.

That said, I wish it was a little safer. I think a fair trade off, and something that could be made a reality, is for our smashes to be safe if they are charged. This creates a little mixup game, where the opponent has to guess whether you are charging or not. Otherwise, shield beats both options.

Mario's usmash works this way, where if he does get some charge off, he does enough shield stun/shield knockback that he is safe.

 

[Meistermayo]

Now that i think about it, i just want bair to connect more consistently, and usmash to have either better kill power or less endlag.

I dont see why the bairs 3% hit should have to send them so far...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

They could just buff metal blade to 14% damage or higher. That move is super interactive and is already one of mega man's most useful moves

 

[Lord Horatio]

His KO moves need to be safer and his lemons need more range.

 

[p1ay6ack]

i agree. he needs safer kill moves

 

[TheQtoAllAs]

Fsmash is ridiculously laggy because it is a projectile that does massive damage and knockback. If it were safe in any MU, we would just see lots and lots of fsmashes.

To be fair, both Bayonetta and Corrin have F-Smashes with more or less as much range as Charge Shot while being much safer on shield due to their higher knockback / damage. Being disjoints and not projectiles, there's no danger of reflection at any time and Counters can be evaded with spacing. The way things are, their F-Smashes completely overshadow what Mega's Charge Shot was supposed to be in the first place.

Considering that, the least Mega could get is a decrease in endlag to make the move safer (it is a projectile, after all) or an increase in knockback / damage to make it comparable to other Smash attacks. It's easy to forget that Charge Shot is pretty weak as far as F-Smashes are concerned.

But yes, pretty much all of Mega's kill moves aren't safe because of enormous endlag, little shieldstun or both.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Mega Man's fsmash isn't worth using most of the time because it is so weak when uncharged. It does 11.5% uncharged (in fact, I can't find another fsmash that does less except Robin's without a Levin Sword) and the knockback is puny. If used at max uncharged range, people can still easily react to it and punish you.

The damage goes up to a whopping 19.5% at full charge but good luck getting there.

 

[Megamang]

Its one of those moves that can't be super powerful because it is broken in a FFA environment, or would be if it was any better. It would at least centralize a lot of for glory teams to needing a reflector, although that is already almost the case.

Source: Playing FG with girlfriend, megaman's F-smash is amusingly powerful with team attack off.

with team attack on, it is best used for ledge traps... one of which, I have my partner stand on the ledge as corrin, and use counter on the full charged f-smash. Super evil, huuuuge killing hitbox.

---

Anyways, I thought of a really cool buff off the top of my head a few days ago, while watching a stream. What gave me the idea, was some poor lad really didn't know the megaman MU, and was avoiding downed metal blades on the ground....

Imagine how cool it would be if they sat on the ground with a constant hitbox! We'd have another way to control ground space, which is something our character should (and does in many MU's) excel at. This wouldn't even be that broken in FFA, just another hitbox out and it would do either 5% or 3% (3% if 5% proved to controlling). It wouldn't really betray megaman's design, while the original metal blade may not stick on the wall, he certainly doesn't have a lack of weapons that do that in his games.

It'd also give him Luma/Gordo'esque hitbox traps on the edge, which would be really cool too =D

I'm too into this buff.

 

[Meistermayo]

That buff sounds so gooood... :DDDDD

If Nintendo wanted to do something similar but didnt want to go that far, they could instead have crash bomb deflect to the ground instead of ending on a shield. That way it is less usefull on a shield but isnt a wasted effort. Also, we rarely see crash bomb grounded, so thatd be cool

 

[TheQtoAllAs]

Agreed. That sort of function seems a perfect fit for Crash Bomber considering its utility in MM2.

Considering that any character / opponent has time and options to avoid the explosion (shield, dodge, pass it back, reflect / absorb, etc) I'd like more reward out of it. It should deal at the very least 12% damage and kill at higher percentages or always stick to an opponent after being we land a grab, which could lead to creative follow-ups or a kill set-up with Up-Throw.

 

[Meistermayo]

I would like dsmash to have better antiair hutboxes, and have the hitboxes last longer...

And for usmash, have hitboxes be tighter together so that an opponent coming up from the ledge cant just shield it if he gets lucky.

 

[Megamang]

That is just the nature of ledge getups in this game unfortunately. On average, they have like 1 frame of recovery!

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/LedgeGetup

 

[smasher1001]

Yeah, for best ledge coverage your longer lasting nonstop hitboxes are what work best. Mega doesn't seem to have any great moves for this, f-smash can work but its super laggy so if you don't hit..uptilts actually got pretty good active frames as well, same issue in doing it too late though. Super punishable.

 

[Meistermayo]

Yeah, for best ledge coverage your longer lasting nonstop hitboxes are what work best. Mega doesn't seem to have any great moves for this, f-smash can work but its super laggy so if you don't hit..uptilts actually got pretty good active frames as well, same issue in doing it too late though. Super punishable.

Mb can be good for covering ledge, especially since we can learn to multidrop, getting shield pressure instead of a punish if we dont get the hit

 

[TheQtoAllAs]

I find that shielding at the edge while Leaf Shield is up works well enough as pressure. It's not a particularly rewarding method unless you land a grab for a Back-Throw KO at higher percents and characters with command grabs may be able to take advantage of it, but it does wonders pressuring an opponent into choosing a getup option fast. A thrown Leaf Shield works better than Charge Shot, but it's much less rewarding, naturally.

 

[Mythzotick]

I think Mega Man is fine the way he is for the most part, but there are 4 moves in his toolkit that I personally feel that really need to either get buffed or changed and I'll go over on why I believe it is necessary for these changes to happen.

• Flame Sword/Fair​
• Charge Shot/F-Smash
• Flame Blast/D-Smash​
• Crash Bomber/Side-B​

Flame sword is a move while far from being bad due to being a disjoint and can really put your opponent at a bad angle at a certain percent on the ground if you space it correctly, it's also nothing spectacular compared to the slash claw and it should be one of Mega Man's more viable options in the neutral. It doesn't come out fast enough, doesn't do enough damage or hit stun, has weird hit boxes, and isn't safe on shield. If this move were to at least come out 2 frames sooner and have less ending lag or even auto cancel, that's more than good enough for me.


Charge shot might just possibly be the worst f-smash in the whole game. Its' damage output is pitiful, has really low knock back, takes forever to come out along with the projectile itself, isn't safe on shield regardless of how close your opponent is, and it's a projectile, meaning it's even more risky against reflectors. It's only really good against characters that can't recover and/or can't auto snap the ledge like or , and in team doubles when paired with characters like .


As bad as the charge shot is, it's not his worst move. That honor goes to flame blast. In all seriousness, this move needs to have different functions so it can be more unique and useful rather than be a poor man's mega upper or spark shot when those moves already kill off the top and are a lot more viable. I'm thinking the move should be something like a higher risk/higher reward version of 's d-smash or 's PK fire.


Crash Bomber irks me the most because like the flame sword, it isn't a bad move. It's just that this move has so much potential and the way it currently is, it's almost impractical at a high level for really cool and creative combos. I don't mind its' damage output or start up all that much and it would be really nice if the move didn't hurt you either. All I'm really asking for is if the crash bomber didn't stick right back to you when you come into contact with the one that has it stuck to them and the hit box of the explosion lasted a little longer. These 2 changes alone would make this move so much more fun and practical than it currently is right now.


It would also be nice if his b-throw killed a little earlier, but it already does its' job so I'm good. The only nerf that I think he deserves is a damage reduction for air shooter. For a move that has a gigantic hit box, does it really need 21% damage? Like I said, Mega Man is fine the way he is and is a really good character with a sky for a ceiling thanks to lemons and metal blades. It's just that if they ever do another balance patch and plan on to buff Mega Man, they should address those 4 moves before anything else regarding him.

 

[Megamang]

I'm personally fine with fair and crash bomber the way they are.

fair is actually a good hitbox, and the fact that Megaman has insanely good air acceleration makes weaving with it pretty solid and hard to punish. At mid percentages, you can fall backwards over the with a flame sword and itll cross up their shield, and if it hits gives you a solid combo into usmash.

Yea, its kinda meh, but you can't have a great disjointed fair + lemons or else lots of characters would get absolutely wrecked by megaman. As it is, it can compete with pretty much anyone in the air except Ike and Mewtwo.

Crash bomber is great for setups, but yea its annoying when it sticks to you. Mess around with different throws, they have different properties with how they switch around the bomb so you can pretty much always throw someone into an explosion then usually a free bair or fair or uair.


Uair nerfs? Nooo, I love that move. How else would I do 60% out of the gate for someone trying to jump lemons =P. Its also amazing for ruining peeps for panic airdodging.


I agree completely with the smash stuff, yet I think they have to be that way. Fsmash being safe would be ludicrous in some MUs, since its already a good trap. If they have a crash bomber stuck and they shield, you start charging a fsmash and you have a free trap.If they shield, you can break it, and anything else you can time a shot to hit them. Projectile Fsmashes are weak for a reason.

I totally agree with Dsmash though. It is nice when it hits, but that is pretty rare. That said, it can keep mega sliding out of a DICIT so it isn't completely useless.

Oh, zdrop MB -> Dsmash will outright break some shields =P

 

[Mythzotick]

I'm personally fine with fair and crash bomber the way they are.

fair is actually a good hitbox, and the fact that Megaman has insanely good air acceleration makes weaving with it pretty solid and hard to punish. At mid percentages, you can fall backwards over the with a flame sword and itll cross up their shield, and if it hits gives you a solid combo into usmash.

Yea, its kinda meh, but you can't have a great disjointed fair + lemons or else lots of characters would get absolutely wrecked by megaman. As it is, it can compete with pretty much anyone in the air except Ike and Mewtwo.

Crash bomber is great for setups, but yea its annoying when it sticks to you. Mess around with different throws, they have different properties with how they switch around the bomb so you can pretty much always throw someone into an explosion then usually a free bair or fair or uair.


Uair nerfs? Nooo, I love that move. How else would I do 60% out of the gate for someone trying to jump lemons =P. Its also amazing for ruining peeps for panic airdodging.


I agree completely with the smash stuff, yet I think they have to be that way. Fsmash being safe would be ludicrous in some MUs, since its already a good trap. If they have a crash bomber stuck and they shield, you start charging a fsmash and you have a free trap.If they shield, you can break it, and anything else you can time a shot to hit them. Projectile Fsmashes are weak for a reason.

I totally agree with Dsmash though. It is nice when it hits, but that is pretty rare. That said, it can keep mega sliding out of a DICIT so it isn't completely useless.

Oh, zdrop MB -> Dsmash will outright break some shields =P

His fair does have a good hitbox, but it also has some bad hitboxes as well. That was what I meant by him having weird hitboxes and you have to be really precise in order to land the sweet spot. It's not that he just has fantastic air acceleration, he also has fantastic air deceleration, which is the combination of both making him weave in and out with ease. I don't think trimming a couple of frames on start up and end lag will break his fair, just making it better that's all.

I kind of disagree with the crash bomber being great for setups. Don't get me wrong, it puts the opponent in an awkward situation because they have to do something or else they'll be put in a disadvantage state, but if they know how to time the explosion correctly and manage to stay away from you, they can simply spot dodge, air dodge, roll, or shield in time before you can get to them. If the crash bomber were to stay stuck to whoever you attach it to and you're able to get a grab, do a b-throw, and then follow up with uair after the explosion, that's a lot of damage.

I'm with you. I don't want uair to get nerfed. I don't want anything involving the blue bomber to get nerfed, but I also want to be a little fair, and that would be my pick for a nerf and even then, it would probably be a minor nerf like a 2-3% damage nerf. The absolute most I would allow would be a 6% damage nerf. Anymore than that would not sit well with me.

I get where you're coming from with f-smash being really tricky to balance because there is also doubles and ffa to consider, but when you have a move that has terrible frame data, terrible damage output, and it leaves you vulnerable to reflectors if used willy-nilly, that's not a good thing. Going back to the crash bomber and f-smash combination. They're not going to want to just stand there and shield. They'll either try to dodge or punish you for it. They should either give tiny buffs to all 3 areas, or focus on buffing 1 key area so it can at least be some what respectable.

There is also the fact that his d-smash is one of the strongest smashes in the game and can be used to for a fully charged smash attack on those who have a broken shield. Other than that, I can't really think of a good reason to use it other than anticipating a roll and able to connect it and even then, it's extremely risky.

I'm going to try out z-drop MB into d-smash for a broken shield a shot the next time I'm back at the lab.

 

[Mythzotick]

TheGlove I just realized that my post earlier was almost identical to yours. lol

 

[Megamang]

I don't even know if I'd take those trades; the high damage of air shooter is super important for shield pressure, in my experience.

 

[Mythzotick]

Well if it were to get a slight damage nerf, what do you think would compensate it?

 

[CopShowGuy]

Well if it were to get a slight damage nerf, what do you think would compensate it?

Being able to have more than one out would work.

 

[Mythzotick]

Being able to have more than one out would work.

That's kind of overkill if you ask me, but I'll take it.

 

[CopShowGuy]

That's kind of overkill if you ask me, but I'll take it.

Not really. You'd be able to get maybe 3 out at a time at most.

 

[Megamang]

Oooh, that'd be pretty deadly.

As it is, I find nice utility in forcing shields with crash bomber. Sure, if they have good timing they only shield for a few frames and nothing happens, but that is something when you can call a landing cross screen, or get a good hit standing closeish to the ledge (where you would utilt someone on reaction for rolling. This combination is meant to encourage ledge jumps that Bair so evilly loves).

I also find it somewhat useful because it can be shot when holding a metal blade. This is the main thing, since CB => MB is actually pretty strong on your shield, and you can go straight into a pellet salvo after that. You force them to have either no shield or try and time an airdodge, and they may become hesitant to try to airdodge if you always bair it. And yea, they can retreat a lot and get out of harms way, but giving up the stage whenever you land a CB is a reward in itself. Mega thrives on stage control, so taking it whenever you land a stick is pretty good reward in itself. If they go into a dodging spasm every time you stick one, you are making great progress with a lead. If they run when they are ahead, then you are still setting yourself up for some sort of trap. Being forced to take a defensive option at one particular moment is actually pretty rough,, especially vs someone like Mega who can trap you hardcore for going to the platforms.

 

[Sleek Media]

At this point, I'll settle for having our kit fixed:

- uSmash always chains properly, consistent hitbox size and a frame gap that doesn't allow power shielding in the middle
- dSmash does...something that makes it not waste a move slot?
- fSmash gets any number of buffs that could fix it. I'd love to store charges and be able to put them out in midair, but that's fantasy
- hard knuckle is transcendent. It takes a full second to throw this move. There's no reason a recovery hurt box should be able to cancel it out if they fail to avoid it.
- fAir is not unsafe on hit. Maybe some reason to use it over bAir?
- uAir has its final windbox fixed. Sometimes it can kill at 150%, other times people just fall out.
- crash bomb explosion cannot be interrupted with shield, has some kind of increased reward for actually landing the explosion
- metal blade (global change) items are caught with grab, not attack

These aren't crazy overpowering buffs. It would just allow us to fully utilize the variety of our kit without getting robbed half the time.