If you could change 1 thing...

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Reallistically, you only get one of these per stock.
Proof. 3 sweetspots + 2 balloons in the first match, which was dominated by Ivysaur, 4 sweetspots + 1 baloon in the second match, which was close-ish. And this is a fast faller, so Ivy could set up some guaranteed sweetspots like uthrow uair, which she can't do as easily in other matchups (she does get nair-usmash on Marth and people in that range of falling speeds, but it can be DIed so that it doesn't sweetspot, or CC'd to force Ivy to do something other than an usmash at lower percents). And he does get a sweetspot while he's already at 0% at one point, so no healing there.
Or perhaps are you going to tell me that Denti was doing something very, very wrong here.

I could be wrong but healing half a stock per match is still amazing. I'll look at some more vids.

Try Marth, I think he holds the crown for auto-est combos in the game thanks to this matchup.

Tiara tyvm. c:

And though he's just the icing on the cake, the rest of the cake can combo Ivy pretty hard too.

I really don't think so. Ivy has a pretty good weight/fall speed for not getting combo'd too hard.

I don't know where you are getting that she is combo fodder, maybe your DI is off? Maybe marth can combo her well since he is probably the best juggler in the game. Buuuut in general a character being heavier, bigger, and falling faster leads them to get combo'd easier, longer, and more frequently. See how badly fast fallers like the spacies and falcon get combo'd. See how much worse Roy gets combo'd than Marth. See how badly DK, DDD, Bowser, etc get combo'd. Compare this to how little Mario and floaties like peach/luigi get combo'd.

Yes, you're right, not being combo fodder anymore would already be more than enough compensation for the loss in survivability :stares at you with a troll face:

My only point here is that you assumed the only possible change would be to make him heavier. I'm merely saying there are plenty of other things to change/balance. This was not meant to be sarcastic, sorry lol :<

If your character is combo fodder, yes it is a better idea. In Brawl, a common strategy against Falco is camp him, even though he typically outcamps everyone, until you get to 40%, because his chaingrab and its followup deal 70% in total, and puts you on the ledge from which it is hard to get back (unless you're MK). It is clearly benificial to just wait until you are at a higher percentage than going in at zero and risking a devastating combo.

This does not apply here. There is nothing similar to Falco's CG in PM. You are saying that you might as well not heal since you'll be combo'd easier. This is not taking into account the extra survivability. Being at 0% is ALWAYS better than being at 50%. Being able to crouch cancel is HUUUGE in PM/melee. You are assuming that you will be combo'd and even though every % you heal increases the chance that you will get another combo/opportunity/kill.

 

[TreK]

I could be wrong but healing half a stock per match is still amazing. I'll look at some more vids.

It sounds good when you put it that way, but it doesn't sound as good when you say 'heal 12% per stock'.

I really don't think so. Ivy has a pretty good weight/fall speed for not getting combo'd too hard.

The advantage of being a floatie is that you get too far to be followed up. However it is counteracted by her weight, which makes her initial velocity lower. All in all, even though she gets less hitstun than light fastfallers, her being a pretty heavy floatie means she doesn't get too far for combos and pretty much is a stationary target in hitstun. It's a different flavor of combo meat, but it's still combo meat.
And it adds up that her horizontal air speed is very low, and all her aerials except nair, which has the least range, have a high startup. But that is kind of out of the point.
(you seem to think she's a lightweight, it's not really the case. Compared to other floaties at least, she's pretty heavy)

This does not apply here. There is nothing similar to Falco's CG in PM. You are saying that you might as well not heal since you'll be combo'd easier. This is not taking into account the extra survivability. Being at 0% is ALWAYS better than being at 50%. Being able to crouch cancel is HUUUGE in PM/melee.

So you're telling me there are less combos in Melee ?
jkjk I know what you meant. But whether or not the combo is DI dependent or not doesn't matter, it's going to happen either way.
That CC point is fair though. It's just that as I said, you're not going to be at 0 instead of 50 on one stock, you're going to be at 40 instead of 50 for 4 stocks (assuming the best case scenario and everything). That kind of reduces the impact of the mechanic in terms of CC.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

It sounds good when you put it that way, but it doesn't sound as good when you say 'heal 12% per stock'.

The advantage of being a floatie is that you get too far to be followed up. However it is counteracted by her weight, which makes her initial velocity lower. All in all, even though she gets less hitstun than light fastfallers, her being a pretty heavy floatie means she doesn't get too far for combos and pretty much is a stationary target in hitstun. It's a different flavor of combo meat, but it's still combo meat.
And it adds up that her horizontal air speed is very low, and all her aerials except nair, which has the least range, have a high startup. But that is kind of out of the point.
(you seem to think she's a lightweight, it's not really the case. Compared to other floaties at least, she's pretty heavy)

So you're telling me there are less combos in Melee ?
jkjk I know what you meant. But whether or not the combo is DI dependent or not doesn't matter, it's going to happen either way.
That CC point is fair though. It's just that as I said, you're not going to be at 0 instead of 50 on one stock, you're going to be at 40 instead of 50 for 4 stocks (assuming the best case scenario and everything). That kind of reduces the impact of the mechanic in terms of CC.

Yess yess yess. Healing 12% per stock sounds amazing to me. Like you said, instead of being at 50, you'll be at 40 which means for the next 1-2 approaches you can CC you're opponent. This also means your opponent has to pay double attention to your %. Instead of being at 150% where every stray hit will kill you, you'll be at 138 where they need to hit you with 1-2 more attacks to actually kill.

I agree its not huuge but it certainly does help and its pretty broken considering no character has anything remotely similar. It'd be like if one character could CC and no one else could (not quite that big of an advantage lol).

Yeah I get the feeling that she is a weird weight but I still don't think her weight is nearly as bad as like Sheik/Roy's.

 

[TreK]

Weight and falling speed are separate stats, check out the PSA files for the complete list of stats. Weight influences your initial velocity when you get hit, falling speed influences the speed at which this velocity decreases. It's not a ruler from Roy to Jiggs, it's more like a 2d graph.

I don't buy into the "no one else can do that" argument. No one else can trip opponents like Diddy. No one else can steal the opponent's neutral B like Kirby. It doesn't mean we should suppress these mechanics.

 

[Daftatt]

Weight and falling speed are separate stats, check out the PSA files for the complete list of stats. Weight influences your initial velocity when you get hit, falling speed influences the speed at which this velocity decreases. It's not a ruler from Roy to Jiggs, it's more like a 2d graph.

I don't buy into the "no one else can do that" argument. No one else can trip opponents like Diddy. No one else can steal the opponent's neutral B like Kirby. It doesn't mean we should suppress these mechanics.

Lol hadn't thought about this, basic fact of physics, if weight and falling speed were the same stat, then calculations on falling speed would yield the same falling speeds on each character since gravity would be a universal constant in the game. Bowser and kirby would fall at the same speeds (neglecting air resistance) in the real world. So intuitively, there HAS to be individual falling speed values for each character and it can't possibly be a function of their weight.

Also, I revise my earlier opinion. If I could change one thing about P:M, it would be to add replay compatibility to the full set. It would be SO MUCH EASIER to share tips and tricks with people on the forum instead of having to practice it on my 360 controller and recreate it on dolphin. Also, I can't make HD combo videos

 

[shairn]

There's nothing really intuitive about characters having different fall speeds, really. Not the way it's done in smash, at least.

 

[TreK]

Lol hadn't thought about this, basic fact of physics, if weight and falling speed were the same stat, then calculations on falling speed would yield the same falling speeds on each character since gravity would be a universal constant in the game. Bowser and kirby would fall at the same speeds (neglecting air resistance) in the real world. So intuitively, there HAS to be individual falling speed values for each character and it can't possibly be a function of their weight.

That's assuming that Nintendo cares about the laws of physics, haha
Check out this brilliant post if you want to know the full roles of both of these stats.
Assuming P:M uses the same data structure as Brawl, falling speed is not a single stat but a combination of two : downwards acceleration, and terminal velocity (and duplicates of these for the fast fall iirc). The more you know :V

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Vs any character that has projectiles?

I don't think projectile spam has a big impact on a character with as many jumps as Jiggs.
Couple that with her air movement speed, and...there's still no need to approach with Jiggs.

If you are trying to approach with Jiggs, you're doing it wrong.
It's that simple.

Jiggs does need a VERY slight buff in this environment, though.
I'd suggest they give her Rest the Lightning kick treatment.
Having a second hitbox that covers her body and kills at maybe 110% with the smaller OHKO hitbox overlapping it.

This way, Jiggs still has a fighting chance if she whiffs the OHKO, but the sour spot can rarely ever be used to KO.

 

[Mera Mera]

ladies and gentlemen i propose this.

If diddy kong's itty bitty kick can power through projectiles seamlessly then gannondorf and captain falcon's respective kicks should not clank but tank the heck through it!

I mean come on guys on what earth does this make sense?

in fact i'm behind any change that gannondorf could get to him.

Jiggs - make sing a projectile pretty please? a slow moving projectile with a long distance would work very well for her.

Ness - make his pk thunder transcendant, like a laser. it can't power through people like lucas' so at least make it so he can't get screwed over by projectiles.

or give him another cannon moe and give him warp.

I think you misunderstand how priority works in this game. Air moves don't clank ever and are only beaten by projectiles or ground moves that hit for 9% or more damage than it. The same hold true for ground moves except they clank unless they overpower something by 9% or more or they straight up lose if they are 9% or more weaker.

Check this link out for an explanation on priority. It's Brawl, but aside from some of the weird Metaknight and Zero Suit exceptions, I believe priority works the same in PM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCpxfUlkWwI

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

Weight and falling speed are separate stats, check out the PSA files for the complete list of stats. Weight influences your initial velocity when you get hit, falling speed influences the speed at which this velocity decreases. It's not a ruler from Roy to Jiggs, it's more like a 2d graph.

I don't buy into the "no one else can do that" argument. No one else can trip opponents like Diddy. No one else can steal the opponent's neutral B like Kirby. It doesn't mean we should suppress these mechanics.

Yeah I shoulda said weight/falling speed. I understand the difference with knockback/vertical kills etc. I still stand by my point, Ivy has a better weight/fallspeed combination than Sheik/roy/many others. And yeah I get what you're saying but to me, healing takes it to far. Its something in none of the smash games and pretty much goes against the rules of smash. I'd rather all the healing be removed except synthesis. There is no canonical reason for any of the other moves to heal and hitting your opponent should be enough reward for hitting your opponent lmao.

 

[PastLink]

I think you misunderstand how priority works in this game. Air moves don't clank ever and are only beaten by projectiles or ground moves that hit for 9% or more damage than it. The same hold true for ground moves except they clank unless they overpower something by 9% or more or they straight up lose if they are 9% or more weaker.

Check this link out for an explanation on priority. It's Brawl, but aside from some of the weird Metaknight and Zero Suit exceptions, I believe priority works the same in PM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCpxfUlkWwI

hm, you learn something new every day, thanks for showing me that, it's something i never knew i'm not gonna lie. but with diddy, there's still a "clang" box when he hits projectiles like mario's fireballs, samus' missles, but he just keeps going through them. so is this (from my new understanding) because diddy's kick does more damage than them? (and falcon kick and wizard foot fall within that 9% interval?) if that's the case then i'm guessing the obvious trade off is that the two previously mentioned kicks trade damage for knockback?
i'd like to say, i don't main cap or gannon but when i play around and see it happen i go "ok, something's strange here." but forgive my lack of knowledge if you will.

 

[Satoru Iwata]

Make snake all around faster. Make Sonic Faster. (Your Too Slow!) Make Falcon say YES after every hit for every move while holding up taunt.

>Sonic is not fast enough
How can this be?

 

[Satoru Iwata]

Add slightly more hitstun across the board. Combos are too easy to break out of.

How can this be?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

>Sonic is not fast enough
How can this be?

I came in here expecting you to say "I want to add tripping back in!"

(laughs)

EDIT: And then I realize that you are not Sakurai...

 

[Satoru Iwata]

I say change Lucas's down air, cause that sh]t is insane. The shield pressuring on that dair is insane!

How can this be?

 

[Daftatt]

How I'm feeling right now:

 

[MechWarriorNY]

*trying to defend Diddy's kicks being > Dorfs and my Captain's*

I think there's something here that YOU don't understand, but it should be obvious fairly shortly.

 

[Tryst]

>Sonic is not fast enough
How can this be?

How can this not be?

 

[Terotrous]

There's nothing really intuitive about characters having different fall speeds, really. Not the way it's done in smash, at least.

Smash Bros finally answers the age-old question "what falls fastest: a pound of bricks, a pound of feathers, or a pound of rubber?"

The order is bricks (Kirby Down B), feathers (Falco), rubber (Jigglypuff). Thank you Smash Bros. I can only assume this was empirically tested.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Easy, easy, easy.

1: universal: remove every single free throw>KO move against non-spacies. This includes: mario, kirby, link, ivy, pit, fox, ganny, etc. Exceptions may include Falcon and a few others that actually need these things. The solution to this is to stop getting grabbed so easily

2: Sheik. She can't kill (LITERALLY kills at ~140% with bair/fair, 150% wwith dsmash on castlevania with NO DI, which is lower than 90% of the cast including ivy, squirtle, zard, lucas, link, ness, MK, mario, kirby, pika, GW, zelda, diddy, snake, yoshi, pit, wario, oli, ROB, lucas, etc who all are nowhere near heavy hitters). Her kill moves literally kill later than most characters secondary and tertiary kill moves. She cant recover: quite literally she has one of the worst recoveries in the game. She has a few up b gimmicks which are NOT mixups (all options can be covered). Fix 1-2 of these. She also can't gimp the majority of the new characters (non melee characters). The only reason people lose to her is because people would lose to that same person in melee. I don't know man, she does have the best down-b in the game.

3. Fox: fundamentally broken. Implement Unbreon changes/nerf initial dash speed. Usmash and uthrow uair nerf would help but NOT solve the problem. There is no reason for a floatie to always die at 40-60% to uthrow uair/usmash.

4. Falco: see above. PAL changes or change dair to always a meteor and adjust hitstun to retain combos. Hitstun cannot be adjusted separately from knockback. A move sending a character at a certain angle with a certain knockback strength always produces the same amount of hitstun.

5. Ivy: completely remove all healing mechanics other than perhaps synthesis. There is no reason for a character to be able to heal, especially a character as good as ivy. The redesign is absolutely great and cool but healing makes 0 sense on anything but synthesis. Its completely broken to get 9% healed off of a sweetspot in addition to charging an extremely powerful move. Does samus get healed for charging b? or lucas/lucario/M2/ etc or does anyone heal for hitting a sweetspot? the combo is enough reward. It's part of her character. What's so wrong about healing? The sweetspots generally require some kind of set-up to land. Healing off of static stage hurtboxes is silly I think, but besides that the character is fine, unless you're a space animal and get juggled by uair for free charges/heals for ivy AND a good combo move. In which case you're a spacie, do spacie things.

6. Ganny: remove the 100% free CG>basically death against the majority of the cast. He is an amazing character and its hysterical how low the majority of the tier lists put him. He may need buffs later. It's not at all 100% free, certain characters throw and fall fast enough that you have o predict DI because reacting is too slow. And it doesn't lead to death on that many characters. Not to mention he's got **** for grab range, he's not exactly dominating with that CG considering how difficult it is for him to land grabs in the first place.

7. Wolf: AMAZING CHARACTER WELL DONE. I do not think he is as powerful as the other spacies. He is significantly more fair. While his recovery is significantly better than the other spacies, I do not see the M2K opinion of him being 3rd best being valid. I would like to see his utilt being buffed to spacie lv or the others being nerfed.

8. Link: way too easy and way too good. Boomerang and zair are waaaaaay to free. A zair should not guarantee a kill/combo. No other zair gives free combos. Not sure if I agree with this. I hate how ridiculous Link's Rang/Zair are, but I'm still considering the fact that maybe I need to explore that matchup more. Such as considering giving Link less space. He's a zoning character, he thrives on space, so I have a hard time convincing myself that Rang/Zair shouldn't reward Link for the opponent being inexperienced enough to GIVE him that space.

9. General changes: remove xfactor moves like solarbeam/fart. Replace them with something else. Both of these moves can be COMBO'd into and guarantee a kill >100%. Both these characters are already good and do not need these "OHKOs." I would also say remove GW's 9's even t hough they are staple. The less random kills the better. GW is also strong w/o the 9's though I severely doubt it will happen as it is a staple. How the **** is "guaranteed kills >100%" a OHKO? do you realize what you're saying there? Even at fifty percent? Bowser's fsmash kills almost anyone anywhere at fifty percent, should we remove that, is that a OHKO? Or is it better than those other moves because it can be used any time?

I hate responding like that but you made it difficult

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ DrinkingFood
HE'S MAKING IT DIFFICULT?
If I could change one thing...
RIGHT NOW
It'd be that you'd be doing this crap with people you meet face-to-face; I can't tell if you sure if you are trolling
or genuinely in a bad mood, but I'm leaning towards the latter.

 

[shairn]

Sheik's fair kills often below 100% when used correctly. He doesn't need to be able to kill from the center of the stage at that percentage. Nearly every one of his moves combo into themselves or many of his other moves, so racking up the damage isn't a problem. Plus fair comes out so fast and has such good reach for what it is.

@ DrinkingFood : I disagree about Sheik having the best DownB in the game, that'd be Zelda. Sheik should get his own Down B.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So it's really bothering me (in a "Stop using 'your' way") that you kept referring to "Sheik" as male, when it's kind of established that Sheik is ... Zelda.

Any particular reason for doing so?

 

[TreK]

So it's really bothering me (in a "Stop using 'your' way") that you kept referring to "Sheik" as male, when it's kind of established that Sheik is ... Zelda.

Any particular reason for doing so?

Shh, don't tell Ganondorf !

 

[shairn]

I just find arguments towards Sheik being Zelda in a guy's body are more convincing than otherwise.

Alternatively I can use the neutral plural pronouns, if you prefer.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

I hate responding like that but you made it difficult

I'm sorry lol? I'm with mech, idrk what you mean by that/if you're trolling. I thought you responded effectively.

1) I realize that not getting grabbed is a pretty good suggestion but thats about as meaningful as saying "don't get hit by sonic/ike/other previously broken characters." My problem is that several characters are heavily rewarded for grabs while other characters actually have to work/mindgame for damage/kills. It wouldn't be much of a problem if only characters like ganny/falcon/etc had guaranteed kill setups with throws since their grabs are pretty terrible and they do not have many easy setups for them (like needle/jab/fireball to grab). The problem is characters like mario and link who have good setups to get grabs, get free damage at low % aaaand get kills at high %.

IMO this breaks the general model of throws set up by melee. Throws are great, they give you positioning and reward you with damage if you can get your opponent to DI wrong. That seems like good design to me: you actually have a chance to survive if you are grabbed. There are a few exceptions of course: Fox's uthrow uair on literally everyone but bowser/other irrelevant characters (This is easily one of the most controversial things based on the number of times I have seen it suggested that it get nerfed), Falcon has pretty guaranteed setups on everyone but fastfallers (other than techchases), everyone basically has some fast faller technology which is necessary to balance spacies, and finally sheik. Most characters (who she doesn't have a guaranteed CG on) can escape dthrow with good DI and good SDI on the ftilt so that she just gets some damage instead of a kill (yes she gets free aerials on floaties but she kinda needs that).

Now Mario gets free usmash(es) and/or uairs off of dthrow against literally everyone I can think of (except fast fallers he gets uthrow stuff). He also gets a free early kill with dthrow/uthrow to fair against everyone(?). Link gets utilts/usmashes at low % and kill moves. You CAN DI well and SDI link's utilts to minimize the damage but the kill moves are just about inescapable. Now why do these characters deserve this when they are already very good? A similar line of reasoning can be applied to ROB's free usmashes/boost uairs from grabs, snakes free sticks/CGs, PIts free kill moves/aerials, etc. Somewhat related are Kirby's 0>death CG on floaties (wtfman).

To me, it seems pretty unfair that the rest of the cast has to mix their opponents up to get rewarded. I think thats an excellent design: it promotes good DI, makes you feel like you can actually do something, and promotes mindgames. If the BR thinks its good design to give everyone free kills off of throws then ok i guess but it seems pretty silly to just give that to some characters.


2) She literally kills (pretty sure) the latest in the cast. She kills later than most character's secondary and tertiary kill moves/throws.

4) I was wondering that: I never got a straight answer, thanks for clarifying.

5) I agree that it is not majory/gamebreaking. IMO it breaks the rules of smash. From what I can see she gets at least 12% a stock (one sweet spot + charging synthesis after a kill). Its not major but its basically getting an extra half stock every match and a loot more against fast fallers. Thats not to mention that she also charges an extremely powerful move with it. Also healing off of any move other than synthesis makes 0 sense canonically. My knowledge of ivy is a bit limited as far as what she can get free off grabs and such so I'll defer to you guys.

6) "its not all 100% free" lmao so that makes it OK? I recognize he had it in melee against some of the cast but it was CONSIDERABLY harder. I find it hillarious how low on the proposed tier lists/tourney winnings he is. He is very strong character. Just because his grab is small compared to other grabs but that does not mean its bad. It has decent recovery and grabs are a STRONG option. One can expect several grabs in a match. If those grabs result in a stock against that character or at least 50+% how on earth is that fair lol. That is not to mention it is not FD only, it works on EVERY stage. The only times it could be difficult is if the grab is done at a stage/platform edge or on an uneven stage like skyloft.

8) I like the idea of all the link redesigns but zair and rang are over the top. Both of these pop you up for an incredible amount of time comparable to something silly like ganny/falcon dair. You are able to throw the rang safely and get followups WITHOUT commitment. Tink's bombos at least require quick reactions/some commitment.

A main problem is there is no good way to deal with the rang for many characters other than PS or wait and try to charge in before he gets another out. The shield stun is so immense that it sets up for easy frame traps (rang to zair on reaction if you shield the rang, if you drop shield, WD out/roll you usually get hit by the zair. Even if you don't get hit you've given link space). Another major problem is most characters cannot clank with the rang since it does so much damage (jabs/ftilts lost to it in general). Zair is good enough on its own as a zoning/keep away tool like other zairs. Similar moves are nowhere near as good. Tink/Lucas' require you to be in close and result in frame traps not free combos and they are not good on shield. Samus' is just a keepaway tool. Even ZSS's side b doesn't put the opponent in that much hitstun (and I believe it can be punished on shield with WD grab etc). It also has significant ending lag but Link's zair can autocancel(?).

9. Sorry lol. Calm you're ****. I realize they are by no means "OHKOs" which is why I put them in quotes, think air quotes Dr. Evil style. I did not put xfactor moves in quotes. They are crazy powerful moves that are crazy comeback mechanics which don't necessarily require good play, just a throw/uair/reacting correctly reacting to DI. GW's 9 (and maybe some of the others) can actually be an OHKO depending on stage/character and they certainly can be with bad DI lol. (I also didn't say they would be an OHKO at every % lol, no need to jump down my throat).

How on earth is Bowser's Fsmash at all comparable? Please not the capatalized "can be COMBO'd into." Can Bowser's fsmash be combo'd into? No. It requires a haaard read or the opponent to make a huge mistake. Waft/Solarbeam reliably kill at 40% in the situations they're commonly used in on normal stages (60% AFTER the the move hits). Yes, these combos are character dependent and many of them are not always free. It does take skill to now what moves will set up where but the majority of the time you can do it on REACTION. ex: an ivy player can see bad throw DI and react with a solarbeam/vinewhip or a wario player can realize when they got the right hit of uair and jump waft.

Now if these moves required horrible di (dthrow>rest), using a really limited move (utilt>rest), or just a really solid read, they would not be nearly as much of an issue.

Sheik's fair kills often below 100% when used correctly. He doesn't need to be able to kill from the center of the stage at that percentage. Nearly every one of his moves combo into themselves or many of his other moves, so racking up the damage isn't a problem. Plus fair comes out so fast and has such good reach for what it is.

The average stage is CONSIDERABLY wider in PM than in Melee. Outright killing someone is extremely important in PM when the majority of the cast has better recovery than Melee Fox and can return from the edge of the blast zone and from well under the stage. There is no reason for Mario's bthrow, squirtle's fair, all of rob's aerials, most of the links aerials, diddy's fair, to kill earlier than Sheik's fair/bair (I can go on. She literally kills later than peach). You might say she can gimp and shes already super good. Yes, she gimps the melee cast fine and NEEDS that. She is way outclassed by quite a few characters off stage and roughly half of the roster can survive needles and several aerials.

I just find arguments towards Sheik being Zelda in a guy's body are more convincing than otherwise.

Alternatively I can use the neutral plural pronouns, if you prefer.

Nope, still a girl http://sheik3ds.webs.com/

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

This thread is giving me a hernia.
I'm outties.

 

[DrinkingFood]

not gonna lie redeyeswhiteswaggin just looks like a lot of johns

 

[MechWarriorNY]

not gonna lie redeyeswhiteswaggin just looks like a lot of johns

Well, for this entire thread, "not gonna lie", you've just been looking like a lot of whining for no good reason. Get lost and come back when you're out of this.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well, for this entire thread, "not gonna lie", you've just been looking like a lot of winning for no good reason.

Fixed that for you

Spoiler

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think projectile spam has a big impact on a character with as many jumps as Jiggs.
Couple that with her air movement speed, and...there's still no need to approach with Jiggs.

If you are trying to approach with Jiggs, you're doing it wrong.
It's that simple.

It's obviously not that simple. Even if you could dodge all projectiles forever, which you can't (at some point you have to land), if you ever get down a stock, you either have to approach or lose by timeout.


Also note that some projectile users, like Link, want you to go to the air to avoid their projectiles. If you go really high, you're just Uair bait, and Link Uair easily beats Jiggs Dair.

Jiggs does need a VERY slight buff in this environment, though.
I'd suggest they give her Rest the Lightning kick treatment.
Having a second hitbox that covers her body and kills at maybe 110% with the smaller OHKO hitbox overlapping it.

This way, Jiggs still has a fighting chance if she whiffs the OHKO, but the sour spot can rarely ever be used to KO.

An interesting compromise, though whiffing the sweetspot on a low % enemy would result in a big punish (as it currently does), so I feel like it'd be the smart move to just go for the reliable KO unless a perfect opportunity presents itself.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

If I could change anything, it would be to go all out and have them make EVERYTHING Project M

Im talking about even more Project M- ified menus, adding that neat Project M stage to the official stage roster, their own official theme. They deserve to show off more than they are, they did great!

Oh, and maybe change the announcer voice for Mewtwo and Roy, it sounds..off.. haha

 

[Joe73191]

Yoshi: Tongue tether recovery.

Shiek: Whip tether recover.

Lucario: Aura system for damage, knockback and range increases as he deals damage. (opposite from brawl.) Replace the on-hit-cancel system.

 

[yoyowoodchuckguy]

Make Sonic's up-smash better. Either more powerful, or faster. Or both.

 

[Empyrean]

Ganondorf: Make Flame choke slightly faster and cover a bit more distance.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi: Tongue tether recovery.

I considered asking for this, because I think it would be hilarious, but it'd probably be really hard to add into the game and might make Yoshi OP.

 

[Daftatt]

I considered asking for this, because I think it would be hilarious, but it'd probably be really hard to add into the game and might make Yoshi OP.

Hmm... Can the PMBR even add tethers into the game??? I know they can't add in projectiles, I wonder if tethers have their own module in the fighter PAC files.

I shouldn't keep posting more stuff in this thread, but..

Sqirtle's waterfall up-b should not instantly stop his vertical ascension when the move finishes, it makes it ridiculously hard to sweetspot with.
Also, there are a bunch of clone-moves like bowser and Charizard's fire breath. It probably can't even be done but I think bowser should get a different kind of flame attack, in the mario games he always has fireballs not a flamethrower.

 

[Baky]

I would revert lucario back to Brawl lucario and start from scratch.

 

[Mera Mera]

Damn... accidental double post.

 

[Mera Mera]

hm, you learn something new every day, thanks for showing me that, it's something i never knew i'm not gonna lie. but with diddy, there's still a "clang" box when he hits projectiles like mario's fireballs, samus' missles, but he just keeps going through them. so is this (from my new understanding) because diddy's kick does more damage than them? (and falcon kick and wizard foot fall within that 9% interval?) if that's the case then i'm guessing the obvious trade off is that the two previously mentioned kicks trade damage for knockback?
i'd like to say, i don't main cap or gannon but when i play around and see it happen i go "ok, something's strange here." but forgive my lack of knowledge if you will.

No, that's not quite right.

For one, aerial can't clang in the sense that the move doesn't stop if it runs into another hitbox, vut grounded moves DO stop when they run into another hitbox (unless that grounded move is 9% more damage than the other hitbox). A projectile can ignore a hitbox if it is 9% higher, and so technically Diddy's side B kick has LESS priority than Ganon's Wizard Kick or Captain Falcon's Falcon kick. Since all three moves tie (being within 9%) with most projectiles, and since an aerial tie with projectiles (your move stays out) is better than a ground tie with projectiles (it stops your move), aerials are better against projectiles (unless you just want just to quick stop them, since if you're not approaching your opponent you probably don't want to needlessly put yourself in the air, since it's generally a worse position than being on the ground). Also, just so you know, the aerial versions of falcon kick and wizzard kick will not be stopped by projectiles.

tldr: it's more to do with the fact that aerial moves deal with projectiles better than ground moves.

As for aerial to ground and aerial to aerial encounters, hitboxes ignore each other so it's all about disjoint. Disjoint is a hitbox that comes outside of a hurtbox. Most of the time with kicks and punches the feet and fists cannot be hit, but they can hit the opponent. This is disjoint. All swords are all disjoint as well. When you use a more disjointed move, you will hit the opponent first, assuming you timed and positioned your attack well, giving the illusion of priority. In most cases what people think is priority is really just a move hitting first because of disjoint. (This is admittedly not applicable to what you're talking about, just letting you know).

I think there's something here that YOU don't understand, but it should be obvious fairly shortly.

I'm not defending it. Just explaining it. If you read the above ^ ganon's kick DOES have more priority than Diddy's kicks. Ganon'll beat samus's super missle and maybe even the charged shot with wizzard kick. Diddy's side B will lose to both for sure. It's just that there are plenty of projectiles that tie with both moves and when ground moves tie they stop (which can be useful), when aerial moves tie they continue, and when projectiles tie they fizzle out.