Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
There's always someone ...
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
If you could change 1 thing...
- Thread starter JOE!
- Start date
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
I say change Lucas's down air, cause that sh]t is insane. The shield pressuring on that dair is insane!
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
I say change Lucas's down air, cause that sh]t is insane. The shield pressuring on that dair is insane!
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
SDI. Another, less optimal solution: Buffering rolls with the C-Stick.
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
I just find it annoying as all hell
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
There are no ATs to counter thatI just find it annoying as all hell
If only Marth could taunt-cancel.
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
I hate how Marth can't taunt cancel cause everytime I taunt I get punished for it.There are no ATs to counter that
Kally Wally
Smash Ace
He can definitely cancel down taunt.
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
He can?
Kally Wally
Smash Ace
Down taunt is the one where he talks, right? He can cancel that one. The timing might not be as easy as Falcon or Sonic, but it can be done.
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
Oh snap thanks.
Toxicroaker
Smash Lord
Make Ganondorf's flame choke grab you if you are on the ledge and you don't have invincibility. That would be epic.
Last edited:
JOE!
Smash Hero
Lot of neat stuff so far, gonna start compiling the community thought sin the OP soon. Should be interesting..
Crezyte
Smash Apprentice
Agreed!!!!
For my changes:
ZSS and Ivysaur - Something to make their grappling only slightly less effective... Maybe ever so slightly less range, maybe some xtra lag if someone is edge hogging... I dunno I just find their tethers infuriating.
Wario - Refer to quote
Falco - D-air starts off as a spike but diminishes in strength the longer the move is out.
Meta Knight - Dies too easily at or less than 100% against pretty much all characters and has pretty laggy/not very usable kill moves against most characters (save well placed/comboed N-air)... So slight weight increase.
Charizard - better glide speed? Not too sure about this though...
DDD - slightly less mobility with waddledashing in air (the guy has a bunch of jumps already)
Donkey Kong - Down-Spec has insane/godlike hitstun and not that much lag which leads to grab easily and death combos easily
Marth - F-thrown to Tipper wayy too easy and too good... nerf plzz
Last edited:
Kally Wally
Smash Ace
Tethers are already fairly punishable on edgehog, because they're forced into a laggy, Melee-esque ledge jump. Unless you want even more lag on top of that...?
This'll be hard, because for a lot of characters I want more than one thing, and for others I don't really know what I want.
Mario - Slightly more recovery on fireball
Luigi - Dash attack links better
Bowser - Can jump cancel Bowser Bomb a bit later than is currently possible.
Sheik - Restore tether.
Ganondorf - Replace Warlock Punch with some kind of projectile.
Fox - Reduce knockback on USmash. Should kill ~120%, not 100%.
Falco - Dair requires sweetspot hit to spike, otherwise does little damage.
Lucas - No longer retains charge on successful smash hit.
Lucario - Cancelling Up B with super restores Up B.
Jigglypuff - Rest does significantly less damage (kills around 90%), but the hitbox is her entire body.
Olimar - +1 to pikmin capacity
Marth - Revert Shield Breaker to Brawl
Game and Watch - Revert Dair to Brawl
Mario - Slightly more recovery on fireball
Luigi - Dash attack links better
Bowser - Can jump cancel Bowser Bomb a bit later than is currently possible.
Sheik - Restore tether.
Ganondorf - Replace Warlock Punch with some kind of projectile.
Fox - Reduce knockback on USmash. Should kill ~120%, not 100%.
Falco - Dair requires sweetspot hit to spike, otherwise does little damage.
Lucas - No longer retains charge on successful smash hit.
Lucario - Cancelling Up B with super restores Up B.
Jigglypuff - Rest does significantly less damage (kills around 90%), but the hitbox is her entire body.
Olimar - +1 to pikmin capacity
Marth - Revert Shield Breaker to Brawl
Game and Watch - Revert Dair to Brawl
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
...Her Rest hitbox already is her entire body.
This would essentially make the move completely useless.
Why wait til 90% for a Rest when you could Up/F-Smash for the same result at a much, much lower risk.
No it isn't, it's nowhere close. It's a tiny circle in the dead middle of her body and that's it. See here:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Jigglypuff_(SSBM)/Hitboxes
Search for "Down special (hitbox location)". It's that tiny red circle.
This is why Rest combos are so hard to land. If it was her whole body, every Rest setup would be 100% reliable. Instead almost every Rest combo requires a good read on DI.
Also F-Smash is harder to combo into, and USmash doesn't kill at 90%. Rest is still sometimes punishable when it kills though (they come back before you recover and hit you), so that's still a drawback.
Last edited:
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
It's not like Rest combos are integral to Jigg's success. She's not called the queen of the air for nothing.
Changing Rest at this point would be pretty pointless IMO.
Jiggs has a lot of trouble with people who control space in front of them effectively, like Marth. She has to work real hard to get in, so when she does get in, she needs to make it count. Just landing one Fair isn't good enough, she takes more than that getting in, she needs those rest combos to be on point to win that match.
I think that my proposed Jiggs would basically just be a floatier Captain Falcon. If he gets in, you're probably dead, but most characters have tools for keeping him out.
Also, I think you can definitely make the case that Ivysaur is king of the air. Ivy will have Bair wars with Jiggs all day. Short Hop Razor Leaf + Bair basically shuts down all forms of approach for Jiggs.
Last edited:
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
That's the thing, though.
When has a good Jiggs player ever needed to approach anyone?
Approaching isn't even in her vocabulary.
Perish the thought.
She's all defense, and thrives on HARD punishes, which is why a Rest that kills at 90 is bad.
If the small hitbox was such a handicap, Jiggs wouldn't be top 5 in Melee.
(Some still argue that she's top 5 material in PM)
Last edited:
SSS
Smash Ace
Make Kirby's fthrow combo like it did in Brawl. I understand that Kirby's dthrow is already great at comboing, but only at certain percents on certain weights. Giving that fthrow option expands his grab game so that you can use it in more situations (you would just have to know which to use, Forward or Down).
But really dthrow has so many options based on DI that it isn't completely necessary. Still, Fthrow should still combo a little bit. Fthrow to uair to grab to fthrow to uair to grab to fthrow to hammer was 2gud in brawl. Of course, that's all that was good about Brawl Kirby. . .Still the fthrow to uair could be nice for some combo starters.
But really dthrow has so many options based on DI that it isn't completely necessary. Still, Fthrow should still combo a little bit. Fthrow to uair to grab to fthrow to uair to grab to fthrow to hammer was 2gud in brawl. Of course, that's all that was good about Brawl Kirby. . .Still the fthrow to uair could be nice for some combo starters.
ItsRainingGravy
Smash Ace
Unfortunately, in order for this to happen, increasing the amount of frames needed for DACUS Smashes directly links the amount of Jump Start frames a character has, as well. The more frames you have for DACUS Smashes, the longer it takes for your character to jump off the ground.
Additionally, pressing the Z button for DACUS Smashes takes 1 frame longer than pressing the A button. I am unaware if this can be fixed, however. Though if it is, this would also affect every other character's DACUS Smashes...and potentially every single grab in the game.
I will post my thoughts on this topic later, when my computer decides to work properly.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Change one thing eh...well I wouldn't really change much about wario, he's pretty much perfect now. If I had to nitpick though, I'd trim down the grab box behind the bite, lol that's pretty much it. As for the other character I play, mario, well I've come up 3 possible things I would change about him. For the sake of this thread though, I'll say the first one, but I'll leave the other two on here in case anyone's interested in looking at them. They get a little wordy, so I'll put them in spoiler tags, and before anyone gets the wrong idea, no I don't think mario is broken or OP. I just don't find him very thought provoking, and if I had the means too, I'd change that.
The return of the old mario fair, but with the pm speed increase.
Pm mario's fair actually comes out on frame 16, two frames faster than both doc and mario in melee. Because of this, the point when the hitbox comes out is around when his fist first starts to swing, as opposed to melee, which comes out at about midway into the swing. This, for those that are curious, is the reason why down throw to fair is so effective in this game, and works on so many characters. As those first 2 frames are when the punch hitbox has only doc stats, which makes it very easy to land from the angle his down throw sends. With his old fair though, he wouldn't get his easy kill confirms from down throw or his uair strings, but in exchange, his tech chase game would see an increase, and his gimping potential would get even better, which is something he excels at. Overall I think an improved melee mario fair has more natural synergy with his existing kit than the pm one, and I feel like it would make the character feel more satisfying overall.
Pm mario's fair actually comes out on frame 16, two frames faster than both doc and mario in melee. Because of this, the point when the hitbox comes out is around when his fist first starts to swing, as opposed to melee, which comes out at about midway into the swing. This, for those that are curious, is the reason why down throw to fair is so effective in this game, and works on so many characters. As those first 2 frames are when the punch hitbox has only doc stats, which makes it very easy to land from the angle his down throw sends. With his old fair though, he wouldn't get his easy kill confirms from down throw or his uair strings, but in exchange, his tech chase game would see an increase, and his gimping potential would get even better, which is something he excels at. Overall I think an improved melee mario fair has more natural synergy with his existing kit than the pm one, and I feel like it would make the character feel more satisfying overall.
Fireball recovery in-between pm and melee.
Not much to say on this one, as its pretty much cut and dry. The current version of mario's fireballs aren't very thought provoking. Mainly due to how fast they come out, which is 9 frames earlier than melee. A four frame increase instead of nine is a fair alternative, makes them faster, but not ridiculously so.
Not much to say on this one, as its pretty much cut and dry. The current version of mario's fireballs aren't very thought provoking. Mainly due to how fast they come out, which is 9 frames earlier than melee. A four frame increase instead of nine is a fair alternative, makes them faster, but not ridiculously so.
Wall jump out of up b removed or an increase in difficulty in performing it.
As it stands now, mario's recovery doesn't engage either player mentally, you either have to hope that the mario doesn't know what he is doing and messes up, or you have to flat out kill him. Mario's recovery is already pretty decent, with well placed fireballs, cape shenanigans (like stalling, or turning around midair to allow for better hitbox coverage with bair), downb's height when used properly, and up b's natural disjoint, all lead to a pretty decent recovery when used properly. With the up b walljump however, the mario player doesn't have to think all that hard when recovering, as long as he can get in contact with a part of the stage, he stands a very good chance getting back to the stage, and with very little technical demand on his part. Removing it or increasing its difficulty however, would put a greater emphasis on the player's decisions off stage, which would promote more thoughtful gameplay.
As it stands now, mario's recovery doesn't engage either player mentally, you either have to hope that the mario doesn't know what he is doing and messes up, or you have to flat out kill him. Mario's recovery is already pretty decent, with well placed fireballs, cape shenanigans (like stalling, or turning around midair to allow for better hitbox coverage with bair), downb's height when used properly, and up b's natural disjoint, all lead to a pretty decent recovery when used properly. With the up b walljump however, the mario player doesn't have to think all that hard when recovering, as long as he can get in contact with a part of the stage, he stands a very good chance getting back to the stage, and with very little technical demand on his part. Removing it or increasing its difficulty however, would put a greater emphasis on the player's decisions off stage, which would promote more thoughtful gameplay.
RedEyesWhiteSwaggin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 94
Easy, easy, easy.
1: universal: remove every single free throw>KO move against non-spacies. This includes: mario, kirby, link, ivy, pit, fox, ganny, etc. Exceptions may include Falcon and a few others that actually need these things.
2: Sheik. She can't kill (LITERALLY kills at ~140% with bair/fair, 150% wwith dsmash on castlevania with NO DI, which is lower than 90% of the cast including ivy, squirtle, zard, lucas, link, ness, MK, mario, kirby, pika, GW, zelda, diddy, snake, yoshi, pit, wario, oli, ROB, lucas, etc who all are nowhere near heavy hitters). Her kill moves literally kill later than most characters secondary and tertiary kill moves. She cant recover: quite literally she has one of the worst recoveries in the game. She has a few up b gimmicks which are NOT mixups (all options can be covered). Fix 1-2 of these. She also can't gimp the majority of the new characters (non melee characters). The only reason people lose to her is because people would lose to that same person in melee.
3. Fox: fundamentally broken. Implement Unbreon changes/nerf initial dash speed. Usmash and uthrow uair nerf would help but NOT solve the problem. There is no reason for a floatie to always die at 40-60% to uthrow uair/usmash.
4. Falco: see above. PAL changes or change dair to always a meteor and adjust hitstun to retain combos.
5. Ivy: completely remove all healing mechanics other than perhaps synthesis. There is no reason for a character to be able to heal, especially a character as good as ivy. The redesign is absolutely great and cool but healing makes 0 sense on anything but synthesis. Its completely broken to get 9% healed off of a sweetspot in addition to charging an extremely powerful move. Does samus get healed for charging b? or lucas/lucario/M2/ etc or does anyone heal for hitting a sweetspot? the combo is enough reward.
6. Ganny: remove the 100% free CG>basically death against the majority of the cast. He is an amazing character and its hysterical how low the majority of the tier lists put him. He may need buffs later.
7. Wolf: AMAZING CHARACTER WELL DONE. I do not think he is as powerful as the other spacies. He is significantly more fair. While his recovery is significantly better than the other spacies, I do not see the M2K opinion of him being 3rd best being valid. I would like to see his utilt being buffed to spacie lv or the others being nerfed.
8. Link: way too easy and way too good. Boomerang and zair are waaaaaay to free. A zair should not guarantee a kill/combo. No other zair gives free combos.
9. General changes: remove xfactor moves like solarbeam/fart. Replace them with something else. Both of these moves can be COMBO'd into and guarantee a kill >100%. Both these characters are already good and do not need these "OHKOs." I would also say remove GW's 9's even t hough they are staple. The less random kills the better. GW is also strong w/o the 9's though I severely doubt it will happen as it is a staple.
1: universal: remove every single free throw>KO move against non-spacies. This includes: mario, kirby, link, ivy, pit, fox, ganny, etc. Exceptions may include Falcon and a few others that actually need these things.
2: Sheik. She can't kill (LITERALLY kills at ~140% with bair/fair, 150% wwith dsmash on castlevania with NO DI, which is lower than 90% of the cast including ivy, squirtle, zard, lucas, link, ness, MK, mario, kirby, pika, GW, zelda, diddy, snake, yoshi, pit, wario, oli, ROB, lucas, etc who all are nowhere near heavy hitters). Her kill moves literally kill later than most characters secondary and tertiary kill moves. She cant recover: quite literally she has one of the worst recoveries in the game. She has a few up b gimmicks which are NOT mixups (all options can be covered). Fix 1-2 of these. She also can't gimp the majority of the new characters (non melee characters). The only reason people lose to her is because people would lose to that same person in melee.
3. Fox: fundamentally broken. Implement Unbreon changes/nerf initial dash speed. Usmash and uthrow uair nerf would help but NOT solve the problem. There is no reason for a floatie to always die at 40-60% to uthrow uair/usmash.
4. Falco: see above. PAL changes or change dair to always a meteor and adjust hitstun to retain combos.
5. Ivy: completely remove all healing mechanics other than perhaps synthesis. There is no reason for a character to be able to heal, especially a character as good as ivy. The redesign is absolutely great and cool but healing makes 0 sense on anything but synthesis. Its completely broken to get 9% healed off of a sweetspot in addition to charging an extremely powerful move. Does samus get healed for charging b? or lucas/lucario/M2/ etc or does anyone heal for hitting a sweetspot? the combo is enough reward.
6. Ganny: remove the 100% free CG>basically death against the majority of the cast. He is an amazing character and its hysterical how low the majority of the tier lists put him. He may need buffs later.
7. Wolf: AMAZING CHARACTER WELL DONE. I do not think he is as powerful as the other spacies. He is significantly more fair. While his recovery is significantly better than the other spacies, I do not see the M2K opinion of him being 3rd best being valid. I would like to see his utilt being buffed to spacie lv or the others being nerfed.
8. Link: way too easy and way too good. Boomerang and zair are waaaaaay to free. A zair should not guarantee a kill/combo. No other zair gives free combos.
9. General changes: remove xfactor moves like solarbeam/fart. Replace them with something else. Both of these moves can be COMBO'd into and guarantee a kill >100%. Both these characters are already good and do not need these "OHKOs." I would also say remove GW's 9's even t hough they are staple. The less random kills the better. GW is also strong w/o the 9's though I severely doubt it will happen as it is a staple.
ItsRainingGravy
Smash Ace
My thoughts:
Wario - The ability to cancel his aerial Shoulder Bash by holding B instead of holding back.
Mario - Slightly more startup/cooldown lag for his fireballs.
Luigi - Slightly LESS startup/cooldown lag for his fireballs.
Peach - None
Bowser - Removing the little shockwave as Bowser rises with his Down B. It looks unnatural. (Aesthetic Change)
Yoshi - Aerial Egg Toss can now throw eggs straight down. When this happens, Yoshi gets a very small amount of vertical recovery immediately after he throws the egg downwards. He can only do this once, and it will put him in a special fall state afterwards. Done by holding down (or tapping B twice) when using Aerial Egg Toss.
DK - None
Diddy - Thrown bananas don't trip a grounded opponent unless they walk/run over it (again). Bananas instead cause knockback identical to bananas that hit aerial opponents.
C.Falcon - Up Smash is replaced by the Up Smash he had in Smash 64.
Wolf - None
Fox - PAL Up Smash.
Falco - Dair spike lasts during the initial frames, then goes away during the later part of the animation.
Ice C. - Up Smash has a larger hitbox in front of them, allowing them to hit smaller opponents on the ground with it.
Zelda - None
Shiek - None
Link - The ability to Glide Toss his bombs on the ground, even if only slightly.
T.Link - Same as Link. Glide Tossing his bombs on the ground would be nice.
Ganondorf - Light Armor during his dash attack, to help him with approaching against projectile characters. Additionally, I would also like Ganondorf to have the ability to hover.
Mewtwo - Aerial Confusion no longer "pops" Mewtwo up, and instead Mewtwo uses his Aerial Confusion with his natural momentum at the time. This would allow Aerial Confusion to be a better option to use against characters who are shielding on the ground.
Lucario - None
Pikachu - None
Jigglypuff - Rollout is given armor whenever she has sparkles around her. Preferably Heavy Armor, though any sort of Armor would do. Having Light Armor on the initial frames of her Pound would also be nice.
Squirtle - None
Ivysaur - Reducing the amount of damage he heals outside of using Synthesis. Additionally, fixing the aerial Side B sound effect when Ivysaur doesn't throw a Razor Leaf. (Aesthetic Change)
Charizard - His aerial down B not taking away his jumps after he uses it would be very nice, considering Pit can do that...
Samus - None
ZSS - None
Lucas - No longer retains Offense Up charge upon successful smash hit. Either that, or a slight damage % nerf on his Offense Up smashes. The later option might be better, as knockback can be increased to compensate for lost damage.
Ness - Aerial PK Fire, upon contact with the ground, would make a pillar of fire. This will allow Ness to set up traps to help with zoning and approaching. To compensate, only one pillar of fire can be on the screen at one time (One per Ness player anyways). Credit goes to EdgeTheLucas for posting this wonderful idea on the Ness board.
Pit - None
Kirby - The upwards swing at the very end of Horizontal Cutter would hit people instead of just missing. (Mostly an Aesthetic Change)
Meta Knight - None
King DDD - Grounded Waddle Tosses aimed downward would throw Waddle Dees closer to DeDeDe. This would allow him more opportunities for Waddle Dashing.
Ike - None
Marth - Giving Marth a backward's stab during his Dancing Blade, similar to Roy's. It just feels odd for one character to have it, and not the other.
Roy - None
Olimar - None
ROB - None
G&W - Holding B during Judgement would allow G&W to "hold" the Judgement in a similar manner to how he holds his bucket special. During this time, G&W can turn left/right at will (like with Bucket), but in a stationary position. He cannot cancel this animation through any means besides being hit by an opponent, or by releasing the Judgement.
Snake - Giving him the ability to move left/right while inside his Box taunt. (lol)
Sonic - None
Wario - The ability to cancel his aerial Shoulder Bash by holding B instead of holding back.
Mario - Slightly more startup/cooldown lag for his fireballs.
Luigi - Slightly LESS startup/cooldown lag for his fireballs.
Peach - None
Bowser - Removing the little shockwave as Bowser rises with his Down B. It looks unnatural. (Aesthetic Change)
Yoshi - Aerial Egg Toss can now throw eggs straight down. When this happens, Yoshi gets a very small amount of vertical recovery immediately after he throws the egg downwards. He can only do this once, and it will put him in a special fall state afterwards. Done by holding down (or tapping B twice) when using Aerial Egg Toss.
DK - None
Diddy - Thrown bananas don't trip a grounded opponent unless they walk/run over it (again). Bananas instead cause knockback identical to bananas that hit aerial opponents.
C.Falcon - Up Smash is replaced by the Up Smash he had in Smash 64.
Wolf - None
Fox - PAL Up Smash.
Falco - Dair spike lasts during the initial frames, then goes away during the later part of the animation.
Ice C. - Up Smash has a larger hitbox in front of them, allowing them to hit smaller opponents on the ground with it.
Zelda - None
Shiek - None
Link - The ability to Glide Toss his bombs on the ground, even if only slightly.
T.Link - Same as Link. Glide Tossing his bombs on the ground would be nice.
Ganondorf - Light Armor during his dash attack, to help him with approaching against projectile characters. Additionally, I would also like Ganondorf to have the ability to hover.
Mewtwo - Aerial Confusion no longer "pops" Mewtwo up, and instead Mewtwo uses his Aerial Confusion with his natural momentum at the time. This would allow Aerial Confusion to be a better option to use against characters who are shielding on the ground.
Lucario - None
Pikachu - None
Jigglypuff - Rollout is given armor whenever she has sparkles around her. Preferably Heavy Armor, though any sort of Armor would do. Having Light Armor on the initial frames of her Pound would also be nice.
Squirtle - None
Ivysaur - Reducing the amount of damage he heals outside of using Synthesis. Additionally, fixing the aerial Side B sound effect when Ivysaur doesn't throw a Razor Leaf. (Aesthetic Change)
Charizard - His aerial down B not taking away his jumps after he uses it would be very nice, considering Pit can do that...
Samus - None
ZSS - None
Lucas - No longer retains Offense Up charge upon successful smash hit. Either that, or a slight damage % nerf on his Offense Up smashes. The later option might be better, as knockback can be increased to compensate for lost damage.
Ness - Aerial PK Fire, upon contact with the ground, would make a pillar of fire. This will allow Ness to set up traps to help with zoning and approaching. To compensate, only one pillar of fire can be on the screen at one time (One per Ness player anyways). Credit goes to EdgeTheLucas for posting this wonderful idea on the Ness board.
Pit - None
Kirby - The upwards swing at the very end of Horizontal Cutter would hit people instead of just missing. (Mostly an Aesthetic Change)
Meta Knight - None
King DDD - Grounded Waddle Tosses aimed downward would throw Waddle Dees closer to DeDeDe. This would allow him more opportunities for Waddle Dashing.
Ike - None
Marth - Giving Marth a backward's stab during his Dancing Blade, similar to Roy's. It just feels odd for one character to have it, and not the other.
Roy - None
Olimar - None
ROB - None
G&W - Holding B during Judgement would allow G&W to "hold" the Judgement in a similar manner to how he holds his bucket special. During this time, G&W can turn left/right at will (like with Bucket), but in a stationary position. He cannot cancel this animation through any means besides being hit by an opponent, or by releasing the Judgement.
Snake - Giving him the ability to move left/right while inside his Box taunt. (lol)
Sonic - None
Last edited:
EdgeTheLucas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2013
- Messages
- 1,695
Regarding that Ness buff you credited me for, thanks! It'd certainly help against Marth, who'd have to jump over the pillar or shield dodge through it, leaving him open for many of his useful aerials.
Still, at the time I made that post, The_NZA later replied to me and said that it wouldn't single-handedly solve all of his problems, especially against characters like Marth. IIRC he'd rather have more reach in lots of his moves. Since he's a pro Ness player and I'm not (I'm trying to main Lucas, as you can see), I think his opinion is more valid.
Dat Lucas nerf you suggest tho
it's supposed to be a reward for successfully connecting with a move, why do you want it gone? It encouraged precision and getting good imo
Last edited:
I don't agree that Ivysaur's healing helps her. Healing puts you back at a percentage where you can be comboed harder, and we're talking about a character whose main weakness is being juggled here. Besides, if the healing got away, it would have to be traded for a heavier weight in order to keep the survivability in check.
All in all, a not healing Ivysaur would be a better character in many aspects.
Besides, it's not like you can heal 200% in a match like you make it sound. The average, from what I can tell, is between 50 and 60% per match, that is, a little more than 10% per stock.
Last edited:
Vs any character that has projectiles?
I'd be willing to drop the healing effect as long as the solarbeam power charge is retained. As that other poster said, however, I'm not sure this is actually a significant nerf. Ivy has quite good longevity if she lives past 130% or so, because her recovery is so good.
I definitely disagree with this, these two attacks are easily among the most fun and exciting kill moves in the game (I would also put Wolf Side B on this list). While balance is obviously important, we also want the game to be fun to play, so I would always lean towards giving characters more options and tools rather than less.
Crezyte
Smash Apprentice
I was a tad misinformed about tether recovery's IASA... didn't realize they changed that in 3.0.
I figured as much... Funny how quickly I adapted to using A instead of Z just by manning up..
Last edited:
RedEyesWhiteSwaggin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 94
You know sweet spot dair/uair heals 7% and usmash heals 9% right? Thats not to mention the ~5% she gets every time she kills her opponent. If you are only getting one sweet spot aerial per stock, you are doing something very, very wrong. At the very least, assuming 2 uair/usmashes/dair and a kill were talking 20% a stock. Realistically you will get more than two of those aerials per stock. In that range we're talking about healing an ENTIRE stock per game.
Are you trolling about healing being bad? Of course lowering your percent increases the chances that you will be combo'd hard (NOT that Ivy is at a weight that she gets combo'd hard), but lowering your % significantly decreases the chance that you'll be killed lol. By your reasoning we might as well allow maxim tomatoes/heart containers/food in competitive play. Only fools would use those items.
Also @ "if the healing got away, it would have to be traded for a heavier weight in order to keep the survivability in check." I don't know where you're getting this weird assumption, it would not "have" to be traded for anything but it could also be traded for anything else lol.
Sorry if I come off as mean, it just seems pretty ridiculous to suggest that being at a higher percent is better in a smash game. I mean, being above a certain % might help in some matchups like being above the % where uthrow uair works against fox so fox would need a clean hit to kill you instead of a grab.
Last edited:
RedEyesWhiteSwaggin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 94
Hype they may be but they are waaay too strong for how easily they can be combo'd into. Its like giving Puff a guaranteed rest every game. Maybe just nerf them in power significantly. It seems pretty bad design to give two characters the equivalent of a fully charged smash attack that can be combo'd into. Of course these moves would be replaced with another tool, no one is suggesting making ivy's neutral b do nothing lol.
I don't know, are you also suggesting that, say, Falco and Marth's Dairs should be nerfed? You can combo into them too and they kill at almost any percentage. You don't even have to build them up in any way, so if you whiff them it's no big deal.
Waft and Solarbeam have a super satisfying "kaboom!" to them that makes them seem absurdly powerful, but to be honest I don't think they're especially broken in the grand scheme of things.
The heal might be more of an issue. If Ivy proves to be OP that'd be one of the first things I'd look at.
Justkallmekai
Smash Apprentice
Totally agree with you on Ivysaur.
RedEyesWhiteSwaggin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 94
The Ken Combo is NOT guaranteed, its DI dependent. Yes Falco's dair is broken but his weight/gimpability balance him out. They are both absurdly powerful. They can both easily kill well below 100%.
Well you can DI out of some Solarbeam and Waft combos too, of course, and if they whiff that's a big loss. And like you said, these moves don't exist in a vacuum, each is only one part of a character. Falcon's Knee is also super powerful, but it's balanced out by the fact that Falcon himself has some significant weaknesses.
So I don't think the issue would ever be "Solarbeam is broke", it might be "Ivy is broke", which would be a result of Ivy having too many strong options and not enough weaknesses. If that is the case, I'd rather give up some other stuff (like perhaps a nerf to Bair, it's kind of bonkers) rather than lose Solarbeam, because Solarbeam is so fun.
Crezyte
Smash Apprentice
Reallistically, you only get one of these per stock.
Proof. 3 sweetspots + 2 balloons in the first match, which was dominated by Ivysaur, 4 sweetspots + 1 baloon in the second match, which was close-ish. And this is a fast faller, so Ivy could set up some guaranteed sweetspots like uthrow uair, which she can't do as easily in other matchups (she does get nair-usmash on Marth and people in that range of falling speeds, but it can be DIed so that it doesn't sweetspot, or CC'd to force Ivy to do something other than an usmash at lower percents). And he does get a sweetspot while he's already at 0% at one point, so no healing there.
Or perhaps are you going to tell me that Denti was doing something very, very wrong here.
Not trolling, no. You're only thinking about the survivability, I'm taking the whole picture into account.
And once again, Ivy IS combo fodder. Try Marth, I think he holds the crown for auto-est combos in the game thanks to this matchup. And though he's just the icing on the cake, the rest of the cake can combo Ivy pretty hard too.
Yes, you're right, not being combo fodder anymore would already be more than enough compensation for the loss in survivability :stares at you with a troll face:
If your character is combo fodder, yes it is a better idea. In Brawl, a common strategy against Falco is camp him, even though he typically outcamps everyone, until you get to 40%, because his chaingrab and its followup deal 70% in total, and puts you on the ledge from which it is hard to get back (unless you're MK). It is clearly benificial to just wait until you are at a higher percentage than going in at zero and risking a devastating combo.
RedEyesWhiteSwaggin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 94
See the next page for full response. idk how to delete in new forum :x
Last edited: