If Wavedash did not Exist- Trying to create a new Tier with that in mind

[Xx GuNz xX]

Aniki's a special case. Ken and he are the only pro players I've seen that don't WD much (although, they're 2 of the best =S). Almost ALL the rest of the smash community uses WD for Samus, and other chars that have been mentioned. We know Samus can still be good without it, but the vast majority of Samus players have incorporated WD into their gameplay and strats.

But that doesn't mean that she's useless without it. If Aniki can be effective without wavedashing, everyone else can, too. It just takes practice.

 

[Ixninjax]

While aniki IS good without wavedashing, most likely he'd be even better with it more incorporated into his gameplay. With his samus at least. No matter how you look at it, if you have another method of movement (especially one that replaces samus's horrid roll) then you automatically gave yourself another advantage. Don't use aniki as a reason not to wavedash, a especially since some noobs will listen and not want to enhance their gameplay with wavedashing. When you watch the top smashers and you want to get good like them, you don't watch for what they do different, but what they do the same. What they do the same are pre-requisites for being good (shining after aerial for example), what they do different are simply their added style. And their style works for THEM, not always you.

 

[the_air_up_there7]

Im pretty sure there won't be any wavedash in brawl.

 

[Pose]

You know i wouldn't really care. I personally dont use it. Wavedashing i think would really effect each character differently, by say like frequency of use.

 

[RPK]

just wondering though. What would the tier list look like if there was no L-canceling either? Since L-canceling is such a big part of a players game, what it be like without L-cancels?

 

[MaskedMarth]

Why does Marth move down on that tier list? It would seem to me that the absense of wavedashing would only make Marth fly up the tier list. Marth dashdances, doesn't wavedash. Sheik, Fox and Falco use wavedash a lot more than he, and they'd all get worse. As somebody mentioned, wd from shielded fsmash would no longer be an option, allowing Marth to use fsmash a lot more safely (Marth, on the other hand, doesn't have much use of wd from shield because a short hop fair or a grab works just as well).

 

[Razed]

just wondering though. What would the tier list look like if there was no L-canceling either? Since L-canceling is such a big part of a players game, what it be like without L-cancels?

True, the tier would change alot and shiek would be on top. But the reason to this thread is, there might not be WD in brawl =(

Why does Marth move down on that tier list? It would seem to me that the absense of wavedashing would only make Marth fly up the tier list. Marth dashdances, doesn't wavedash. Sheik, Fox and Falco use wavedash a lot more than he, and they'd all get worse. As somebody mentioned, wd from shielded fsmash would no longer be an option, allowing Marth to use fsmash a lot more safely (Marth, on the other hand, doesn't have much use of wd from shield because a short hop fair or a grab works just as well).

The truth

Editing

 

[RPK]

Actually, samus may move up since samus still has her super wavedash since that only involves her bombs

 

[Sensai]

No, RPK. Samus's WD is essential to her gameplay...unless you're Aniki.

MaskedMarth, I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit. While I don't think Marth would be that affected by the lack of WD, the fact that it would hurt him is indisputable. There are only a few characters who would be unaltered by the taking out of the WD. They are, IMO, as follows:

Link
Zelda
Peach
Jiggly (maybe?)
Bowser

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, although all of those are argueable. You could even make a case for C. Falcon being added to that list....

 

[pdk]

how much bearing has SWD had on tiers ever, though?

 

[RPK]

Yeah thats true. Oh well I dont know much about Samus, but Im just saying, I would think it would switch up a little bit since Samus still has her SWD, but I dont know much about Samus since I was just assuming which I should have stated earlier. Oh well

 

[Razed]

It's been said before somewhere, but this tier also doesn't let samus have her SWD, because that will most likely be taken out in brawl too. That's what really inspired this thread, the prospect of WD being taken out in brawls.

 

[Honors]

The best place to start would be to review the history of smash on when wavedashing was discovered and used in tournaments and compare it with the old tier lists before the discovery. It may not reflect today's metagame, but it is a good place to start. There is one topic somewhere that has all the tierlists created.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

If your reasoning is because brawl will have no wding, keep in mind that many things are likely to change on everyone, so the whole tier list will probably change considerably. It's a new game, they'll probably nerf some of the top tiers and make some of the bottom tiers better, while the new characters will fill the bottom and top of the tier list.

 

[bladeofapollo]

Link, Samus, and Bowser would be bottom tier w/o L-canceling. Link and Bowser due to their mad-high lag. Samus cuz her grab is so slow she might not be able to shield-grab.

 

[MaskedMarth]

MaskedMarth, I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit. While I don't think Marth would be that affected by the lack of WD, the fact that it would hurt him is indisputable. There are only a few characters who would be unaltered by the taking out of the WD. They are, IMO, as follows: [not Marth]

I said "Marth dashdances, doesn't wavedash." Well, I was exaggerating. I agree with you, in fact. I agree that Marth is indisputably hurt, compared to his wavedashing self. But he is not hurt on the tier list, because he needs wavedashing less than other characters. For most things wavedashing does for Marth, dashdancing serves as an alternative, usually just as good. This is not the case for Fox (who needs the wavedash to shine combo) and Sheik (who needs the wavedash for short-range maneuvering, since she lacks a good dashdance and short hop), two of the three characters above him in the tier list. I don't know how much Falco needs wavedashing, but I imagine it's indispensible in Falco vs. Fox, whereas it's always dispensible in any Marth matchup.

 

[Sensai]

Good point, MaskedMarth. And I think I'd go farther to say that if the WD was taken out, out of the upper-tiered characters, Marth would do the best (save Peach, maybe).

My fear (since this is somewhat Brawl oriented) is that Metaknight will be a Marth that can fly. Ouch.

 

[Razed]

Link, Samus, and Bowser would be bottom tier w/o L-canceling. Link and Bowser due to their mad-high lag. Samus cuz her grab is so slow she might not be able to shield-grab.

Who said anything about L canceling? And it wouldn't even affect samus as much as others, given that she has litte-no short hop

 

[TheSavageBlueBoy]

Link would be higher than he is now on that list on the first page, If you factor in all the link players that dont us WD already, and you take or WD for all the other characters, Link would get a giant jump on the tear list. like he'd be closer to the top of mid or even pushed up out of mid tear. If there was no L-canceling then link would be in the very bottom next to pichu and mewtwo sadlly......

 

[Sensai]

I don't agree, SavageBlueBoy. Sure, he's not a huge user of the WD, but to say that he'd 'get a giant jump on the tear [tier*] list' is just fallacious reasoning. The fact of the matter is that Peach doesn't use the WD much, nor does Marth necessarily need to. Nor do Ganon or Falcon.

Maybe up a little, but not much.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I never wavedash with Falco. Before I picked him up as a main, I wavedashed with every other character. I suppose waveshining could help eat up my opponent's shield, but meh.

 

[DP's Mario]

As long as there's an air-dodge, there's a wavedash. Unless the character stops to a complete halt when it makes contact with the ground right after landing from an air-dodge.

 

[Ensee]

Luigi should be bottom tier in this list.

 

[Wayland]

Luigi should be bottom tier in this list.

Wrong. Luigi does wavedash heavily in competitive play. Have you ever dash cancelled with luigi, though? It's not as long or as fast as his wavedash, but it provides a slide longer than anyone else's wavedash. If the wavedash didn't exist, luigi's would dcsmash, dctilt, dcgrab, whatever they do from wavedashing now. Luigi would be slower than he is now, but his aerial combos (basically what make him so good) would remain largely the same. He'd lack the defensive cababilities of the wavedash (so would everyone else, dosen't matter), and he'd lack the wavedashing approach (which isn't exactly bulletproof to begin with). Luigi would be completely different, but he'd be at least at the middle of low tier.

 

[thatsmybutta]

if there was no wavedash it'd be the n64 version, and that game is fun as hell.

 

[Reioumu]

Top tier? It could still be Falco and Fox -_-... The only thing they lose is waveshine, though they still have JC shine, but Fox can still drillshine. Falco heavily relies on lasers and pillaring, meaning since you can still jump cancel, you can pillar. Falco is almost unchanged, but it affects Fox in a way where he can't waveshine people across the stage

 

[Sjakmachien]

Fox isn't in the right place, he needs to be higher.

 

[mario-man]

Alright guys, let's use our brains here. (not saying that you weren't before)
What are the chances really, that they take out WDing. Think about it. If they use the same physics engine, then there is no way to remove it unless you remove air dodging, which would be an absolutely stupid thing to do. Plus, it adds a higher level of play to the game, because you have to think faster to react to your opponent who is about to release a fully charged fire blade with Roy. (if you don't wavedash immediately, you are going to get KO'd)
Without WDing this game would have nearly no level of serious gameplay. All you could do is master dashing into a grab and u-throwing your opponent so that you can u-tilt into an
u-smash, then f-smash combo. Pretty boring isn't it!!!!

 

[KevinM]

i agree with mario-man i think he hit the nail on the hammer for IMO of WD

on the topic... it's obvious with all the debates that my tier list would go like this

God Tier
G and W
Boozer
Pichu

Bottemest Tier
All of them besides aforementioned three

Any thoughts?

 

[Rohins]

Removing the WD wouldn't ruin the game. It would still be just as competitive. WD is just a means of moving, not the source of competition. Sure, it adds more options, mindgames, etc. but to say this game wouldn't be competitive without it is just incorrect.

 

[mario-man]

KevinM, don't you mean hammer on the nail, or nail on the head?? lol lol

Now I didn't say that it wouldn't be competitive, I said there would be no SERIOUS level of competition, because mindgames are the core of every pro's game.

 

[purekorea]

You don't need to WD for mindgames. Most peaches don't wavedash and if they do it's only a small amount.

As other's said watch Aniki's matches. I think I've seen him WD once to edge hog out of about 10 vids. The WD is so situational it can't really be considered the main part of mindgames.

In short WD helps mindgames but the removal of WD doesn't mean a removal of mindgames.

 

[mario-man]

It doesn't remove mindgames, but are you saying that you would rather take away from the mindgames, and thus make the game easier and more boring. As far as Aniki, it depends on what character you are using. Realize that peach has the worst WD in the game, so there is probably no benefit to using it.

 

[purekorea]

It doesn't remove mindgames, but are you saying that you would rather take away from the mindgames, and thus make the game easier and more boring. As far as Aniki, it depends on what character you are using.

Aniki uses samus and I believe WD is a important part of her playstyle and yet Aniki plays her just fine without, not like he's getting 4 stoked and such without WD.

It would take away the WD aspect of the game but WD isn't the reason this game is hard or fun.
(Shffling combos with captain falcon is hard and fun enough)

Realize that peach has the worst WD in the game, so there is probably no benefit to using it.

I agree with peach WD sucks but someone like shiek has a decent one but I've only seen it be use sparingly.

 

[Joner]

The funny thing is that the tier lists are based on who wins in tourneys and it is quite possible that very different people would win if wd didn't exist.
The logic of this topic fails.