If Wavedash did not Exist- Trying to create a new Tier with that in mind

[Razed]

Hey,
We've all looked at the terrible possibility that there will be no wavedash in brawl. Wavedashing helps so many characters, is so fun to use, and has so much incorperated with it. Take the ICs for example; without wavedash they're slowcakes. They have terrible speed, and would have almost no potential.

Thus, I thought it would be a good idea to try and create a tier for SSBM of how the characters would fair if WD didn't exist. I will need help with this, this draft might and probably will be very far off. Please help with it.

Top Tier:
Sheik
Peach
Marth

High Tier:
Falco
Captain Falcon
Fox

Middle Tier:

Jiggly Puff
Ganondorf
Samus
Link
Mario
Doc
Ice Climbers

Low Tier:
Young Link
Roy
Ness
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Luigi

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Zelda
Bowser
Kirby
G&W
Pichu
Mewtwo

LMK what you think

 

[pdk]

ICs still have infinites and usmash **** to go with, and no way luigi can fare THAT bad with his nice aerials

 

[Zeee]

IMO means "in my opinion"

and IC would be bottom mid tier.

Falcon would be high thier.

Fox would suck hard.

 

[Mcscruff]

fox without waveshine would suck, put him lower.

 

[Razed]

**Updated based on those posts. Keep in mind that you can still JC... so Fox wouldnt suck COMPLETELY.

Thanks

 

[FastFox]

The wavedash is something common to all characters, therefore the absence of it would not effect a matchup, as both characters would lack wavedashing. The case is different, however, for a move that is unique to each character, such as Fox and Falco's shine, and Peaches D-smash. If a character lacked a move unique to it, it would effect how the match progresses and the outcome.

I guess I'm trying to say that this tier list means nothing at all.

 

[Mcscruff]

fast fox i disagree. for example lets take the fox vs. luigi matchup. with wavedashing its already a horrible matchup. but if there was no wavedashing, luigi would have to run instead of wavedash. it wouldnt effect fox as much, so the matchup is made even worse than it already is.

 

[Dash_Fox]

fox can do fine without waveshine :D he's still got the speed!

 

[metroid1117]

The wavedash is something common to all characters, therefore the absence of it would not effect a matchup, as both characters would lack wavedashing. The case is different, however, for a move that is unique to each character, such as Fox and Falco's shine, and Peaches D-smash. If a character lacked a move unique to it, it would effect how the match progresses and the outcome.

I guess I'm trying to say that this tier list means nothing at all.

If it was a match between a Roy and Marth with no wavedashing, that would be understandable. However, what if it was a match between Zelda and Luigi? Zelda is tied with Peach for the worst wavedash in the game, and I rarely see a wavedash from either characters. Luigi's ground game, on the other hand, would be severely limited due to his normal running speed. Without wavedashing his ground game would be too sluggish to be used effectively. Granted, you can use down+B to spin towards your opponent, but wavesmashing and waveshielding would be an aspect of his game that would be sorely missed. Also, what about Link vs. Fox? Without waveshining, the match is now almost even.

I feel that G&W needs to be lowered even more; without wavedashing, the only good things he has are FSmash, the occasional 9, FAir, NAir, and recovery, all of which are counter-balanced by his horrendous shield and dodging abilities.

I also feel that Ness should be raised higher up; the only reason he's so low is because of his extremely brutal learning curve; a good Ness player is rare but formidable.

You should keep in mind that the tier list is based on tournament placings; the only way to come up with a 100% accurate list is to hold tournaments with no wavedashing, rather than speculation and opinion.

 

[Razed]

The wavedash is something common to all characters, therefore the absence of it would not effect a matchup, as both characters would lack wavedashing. The case is different, however, for a move that is unique to each character, such as Fox and Falco's shine, and Peaches D-smash. If a character lacked a move unique to it, it would effect how the match progresses and the outcome.

I guess I'm trying to say that this tier list means nothing at all.

You didn't really read my post did you :/.

Look at the ICs, they'd be slow as hell! a fox could just spam lasers, run to the other side of FD and continue to spam and they'd never reach him! Or luigi. Where as, you don't really need peach's WD, and falcon is still awesome without it.

WD affects different characters very differently

Edit: Thanks for the helpful post, metroid

 

[Wak]

In my opinion (IMO sucks), every character but ~ICs and Luigi wouldn't move in the list. Why?

For a simple reason. The wavedash is not necessary to be good at this game. It's something that everybody do but it's not REALLY **** IMPORTANT. Look at Aniki, he doesn't wavedash, even with Samus!

So if wavedash didn't exist, we all would have played the same way... but with no wavedash... and that is all. Because there is no character (except IC and luigi) that needs to wavedash.

I don't know if you understand my point of view, anyway. I believe you should make a tier list if L cancel didn't exists, or DI

my two cent.

 

[Razed]

But what about fox >.>

 

[Wak]

But what about fox >.>

masashi = no wavedash after a shine. He still stays the best fox in japan.

... EDIT: c'est où que t'habite au québec? XD

 

[Razed]

masashi = no wavedash after a shine. He still stays the best fox in japan.

Look at M2K though... best (I think?) fox in US.

But at the prospect of there being no WD in brawl, do you think I should get into the habit of Wding less? I do it almost all the time.

EDIT: Ouais, je n'est pas bonne en la francaise quand meme xD! J'habite en les Eastern Townships =)
<<I can't do accents on my comp =X>>

 

[Sensai]

Wow. Great topic. Seriously, lovin' it.

I don't think Fox would move down as much you guys are thinking. The waveshine, while applicable in certain cases, is not nearly as useful as you guys make it out to be. He'd be bumped down a spot or two, but not much....

 

[Rohins]

I think Marth would be more powerful. You would not be able to wavedash out of shield against Marth's fmash making fmash less punishable. Marth can also space very well without wavedash (dashdancing and pivoting).

Also, where's Samus on your list?

 

[1048576]

So without wavedashing, what would happen when you airdodge into the ground? Would you just go through the stage? That would suck. Anyway, actually Link has the worst wavedash in the game, not Peach/Zelda. Projectiles would become a lot gayer without wavedashing, as there would be no efficient way to block camping. Zelda would move way up, in my opinion, because her WD sucks anyway, and she can reflect projectiles.

 

[Scintillatedseed]

fox and falco wouldn't relaly move down on the list much at all. All the top tiers would probably stay top tiers, because if you watch ken, he doesn't really use wavedash very often. It's there to help him of course, but it's not essential to his game. Masashi is another example of a fox that didn't need wavedash to get himself up there. in fact, he barely even uses low-jump, i don't know how he manages to get as high as he does, but it's probably mindgames. If you watch ken's fox, he's one that barely uses fox's wavedash, and even still if wavedash didn't exist, fox STILL has his jc shine spike and all of his ridiculously overpowered upsmash which still makes him a formiddable opponent to deal with.

The same can go for shiek, peach(who doesn't even really use wave-dash). If anything, wave-dash probably helps manage the imbalance of the tiers in the hands of a good player. It adds potential to character's who'd otherwise would have very little. Those characters are mario, mewtwo, luigi, g&W, IC, Samus, etc.

But wave-dash wouldn't be tkaen out, it's not just wave-dash that add's to the game, it's the act of really just moving and landing on a plane with a slide that adds complexity to the game, left or right, staying on the platform or falling off? IT's part of the physics, though I suppose that can be adjusted.

 

[technomancer]

:/ this topic is silly, but if you want, I'll add my two cents.

Falco for top of the list; he doesn't lose his shine combos, and without WD out of shield, SHL is broken. Sheik, Marth, and Peach are next, in that order, with most other characters staying as they were.

Luigi doesn't have problems without wavedashing, nor do the IC's with their high priority aerials and smashes, as well as chainthrows.

Fox gets destroyed by Peach, Marth, CF, DK, and anyone else who can chainthrow him without the waveshine, he should be low middle tier (Link, anyone?), just because he has so many bad matchups in the top echelon w/o wavedashing.

 

[Ixninjax]

fox doesn't need wavedash to own, all he needs is up-throw to up-air. lmao if you think link would be an even match without wavedash. Link is still TOO SLOW to keep up with fox. And luigi is way too slow without wavedash, marth owns a luigi that doesn't wavedash. The marth could probably stand still and f-smash ftw, luigi is slow and he also falls slow. In my opinion, falco, marth, fox and peach for top tier. well, not much of a change in my opinion. And mewtwo would suck more. imo of course, lol.

 

[falco_4_life]

Ganondorf should be higher up. aint like his wavedash really matters anyway

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

Ganondorf should be higher up. aint like his wavedash really matters anyway

Ganondorf needs wavelanding.

 

[marthsword]

I wouldn't put Falco at the top, he can't waveshine or pillar well without it. It may be short, but he needs it more than other characters. Ganondorf should be a little higher, he needs wavelanding, and wavejabbing is always fun but not necessary. Peach should be top IMO, she has a terrible WD, and it doesn't really affect her if she doesn't have it.


1048576: Link's wd is just slightly better than Zelda's.

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

I wouldn't put Falco at the top, he can't waveshine or pillar well without it. It may be short, but he needs it more than other characters. Ganondorf should be a little higher, he needs wavelanding, and wavejabbing is always fun but not necessary. Peach should be top IMO, she has a terrible WD, and it doesn't really affect her if she doesn't have it.


1048576: Link's wd is just slightly better than Zelda's.

Pillaring doesn't require waveshining, lol.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Uh, pillar combos do require WS if your opponent knows how to DI.

Put Fox back up higher, waveshine isn't a large part of his play in a lot of matchups. He can still **** with usmash, uair and uthrow etc.

 

[marthsword]

Pillaring doesn't require waveshining, lol.

It can......

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

Uh, pillar combos do require WS if your opponent knows how to DI.

Put Fox back up higher, waveshine isn't a large part of his play in a lot of matchups. He can still **** with usmash, uair and uthrow etc.

You mean shine combos. Pillar is just d-air -> shine -> d-air -> shine on someone's shield.

I just wanted to poke some fun, but I do agree though, Falco would be less valuable without his waveshine. He does still have SHLs, though.

 

[Razed]

IMO, I think falco's waveshine wouldn't be that big of a loss, cause he can still JC. But yeah, peach would be tops. I'm getting many mixed oppinions on fox, so I'll just try and put him somewhere good.
Someone mentioned the ICs being almost just as good. That's BS. ICs need wavedash, they're slower than a grandma on stilts without it.

Thanks all

EDIT: Thanks @ Sensai for complementing my topic idea =)
Thanks @ Rohins for being the only one to notice that I forgot samus 8)

EDIT #2: "What would happen if you air dodged at the ground?"
In SSBM, You'd probably just land normally, like a JC.
In SSBB, people are saying that you might go into a crouch. I don't like the crouch idea in general :/

 

[BrTarolg]

i think the tier list would be *exactly* the same, except for ice climbers and luigi.

*maybe* fox might go down a bit, but only a little.

 

[Vall3y]

interesting topic
the chars would be effected the most if wavedash didnt exist are probably mewtwo, fox, falco, luigi, and ice climbers.
with mewtwo it doesnt really matter. he sux anyway lol.
falco shouldnt be effected much too. no wavedash means no waveshining, so its harder for him to combo fast fallers (where his waveshine works the most). fox's waveshien is probably more important for him but not that much of a big deal too.
luigi heavly relies on wavedashing to move, and to attack and grab, but he'll probably manage without it just as a much worse char
ic on the other hand... i cant imagine ice climbers without wavedash. no wavesmashing, no wavedash out of shield... almost unplayable. their smashes shouldnt be that effective without the wavedash, and wavedashing into grabs is how they grab most of the time.

 

[pdk]

It can......

but doesn't really need to

and why is link higher than samus? she's still all-around more mobile, has better recovery, decent dash attack and ftilt to compensate for the lack of wavesmash, can easily play keepaway against most chars to compensate for lost mobility, etc.

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

Aniki can play a great Samus without wavedashing. Samus does have a great wavedash, but it's possible to an extent without wavedashing.

 

[pdk]

and are we assuming SWD still exists or not?

 

[Razed]

and are we assuming SWD still exists or not?

Yes, because it is very likely that samus won't have a SWD in brawl. Although, SWD isn't the same as WD at all.

**bumps samus up**

 

[Problem2]

I guess this list if ok. We really don't know exactly how much wavedashing affects the peak meta-game.

But are you really worried Wavedashing will be taken out? If you've ever been into competitive Mario Kart racing, then you probably know about Snaking. Snaking has been around since Mario Kart 64, and Nintendo has purposely kept the ability in the game, all the way up to Mario Kart DS (except for Super Circuit, which was based off the SNES MK).

My point. Nintendo isn't the type to take away mechanics, being originally intended or other wise. Infact, Nintendo might add to Wavedashing, making it a more important factor in the game. They did that with Snaking.

 

[Sensai]

Aniki's a god, though. Aniki is some random outlier that defies every bit of knowledge that we have about the game. And he does WD...I saw him do it one (1) time. I have no idea why he did it, because his opponent was dead when he did it.

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

Aniki's a god, though. Aniki is some random outlier that defies every bit of knowledge that we have about the game. And he does WD...I saw him do it one (1) time. I have no idea why he did it, because his opponent was dead when he did it.

I demand a video...

 

[Fletch]

I demand a video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XNkcRa-2yg

Around 1:12

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

Weird, but now we're getting off topic. As I was saying, Aniki can still play Samus without wavedashing, which proves it's Samus is pretty good even without her wavedash.

 

[Razed]

I guess this list if ok. We really don't know exactly how much wavedashing affects the peak meta-game.

But are you really worried Wavedashing will be taken out? If you've ever been into competitive Mario Kart racing, then you probably know about Snaking. Snaking has been around since Mario Kart 64, and Nintendo has purposely kept the ability in the game, all the way up to Mario Kart DS (except for Super Circuit, which was based off the SNES MK).

My point. Nintendo isn't the type to take away mechanics, being originally intended or other wise. Infact, Nintendo might add to Wavedashing, making it a more important factor in the game. They did that with Snaking.

I haven't really played MK64 and as a result have no idea what you're talking about >.>. If it means WD has a better chance at getting in though, woot! o.o

Weird, but now we're getting off topic. As I was saying, Aniki can still play Samus without wavedashing, which proves it's Samus is pretty good even without her wavedash.

Aniki's a special case. Ken and he are the only pro players I've seen that don't WD much (although, they're 2 of the best =S). Almost ALL the rest of the smash community uses WD for Samus, and other chars that have been mentioned. We know Samus can still be good without it, but the vast majority of Samus players have incorporated WD into their gameplay and strats.