If Update Patches didn't exist

[WwwWario]

Imagine Smash 4 suffering the same fate as its 3 previous games - no update patches. The game we buy is what we will have. That will be the definite game. If updates existed before, Brawl, Melee and 64 would be entirely different. But what if Smash 4 didn't have them? What if the game we bought would be the definite Smash 4?

-What glitches/bugs/exploits would be in the game now?
-How would the meta be?
-What characters would dominate, who would be very different, who would be at the bottom?
-Would the Hoo Hah be banned?

Questions like this. Pretty fascinating to think about, and how much updates changes the game.

 

[Frizz]

I'd rather have Diddy's Hoo-Hahs than Sheik's easy-to-bake, easy-to-serve fair x10000 and bouncing fish combo.
A Sheik main could prove me wrong here, but that's just how I like to interpret it. Just like how DyllonStej Gaming did.
Also, Robin would be worse than he is now, having people less confident to play him. Which is good; I want to have as little competition as possible with Robin.
On the downside, rolls and dodges would be much more spammable, especially on For Glory. But you could always read them, or at least try to.
No update patch means no DLC, which means no Ryu. Ryu is by far my favorite character to come out of DLC. Mewtwo and Lucas are cool, but Roy is just... something else. It's not my intention to bash on other people's likings, so I'm sorry if I had offended anyone.
So basically, No-Update Smash 4 would just be okay with me, I suppose.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I'd rather have Diddy's Hoo-Hahs than Sheik's easy-to-bake, easy-to-serve fair x10000 and bouncing fish combo.
A Sheik main could prove me wrong here, but that's just how I like to interpret it. Just like how DyllonStej Gaming did.
Also, Robin would be worse than he is now, having people less confident to play him. Which is good; I want to have as little competition as possible with Robin.
On the downside, rolls and dodges would be much more spammable, especially on For Glory. But you could always read them, or at least try to.
No update patch means no DLC, which means no Ryu. Ryu is by far my favorite character to come out of DLC. Mewtwo and Lucas are cool, but Roy is just... something else. It's not my intention to bash on other people's likings, so I'm sorry if I had offended anyone.
So basically, No-Update Smash 4 would just be okay with me, I suppose.

Hoo-Hah over Sheik? I think we quickly forget now that it's gone, but Diddy's Hoo-Hah required almost no skill whatsoever. It was basically the best move for dealing damage and the best move for killing. I'm more happier with Sheik, which actually requires you to be good to win with. (You call Sheik's f-air an easy bake combo, but it's laughable how little each one does after her nerfs.)

 

[Frizz]

Hoo-Hah over Sheik? I think we quickly forget now that it's gone, but Diddy's Hoo-Hah required almost no skill whatsoever. It was basically the best move for dealing damage and the best move for killing. I'm more happier with Sheik, which actually requires you to be good to win with. (You call Sheik's f-air an easy bake combo, but it's laughable how little each one does after her nerfs.)

Perhaps. I don't have that much knowledge in competitive play or in other characters besides Robin.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

We'd have Greninja KOing at 30% lol XD

 

[Rinku リンク]

It honestly just be slightly better game than Brawl if that were the case.

 

[David Viran]

Are we talking 1.0.0 3ds version original? If that's the case we would have sheik's stupidly strong BF and uair. Vectoring changed a lot of characters it just wasn't noticed really because the game hadn't been out for that long. Like for instance diddy's hoo hah and luigi's throw combos were less reliable with vectoring.

 

[Sari]

Wario would still be able to fly through the heavens

 

[Deleted member]

Wario would still be able to fly through the heavens

How is that even possible???

 

[Sari]

How is that even possible???

Wectoring (caused by a glitch relating to DI).

 

[CrazyPerson]

It is hard to say.

We probably wouldn't have Ryu... but would Roy, Lucas, and Mewtwo been in the base game if patches and DLC weren't planned/didn't exist at all in some parallel universe?

Diddy may end up being the next Brawl Meta Knight... or close to it. Likely his own tier... though maybe He and Shiek would share that.

The back room likely would have made a match up table and tier list right now. (Would be nice if those experts could get one made... even if by old standards it feels rushed.)

EDIT:

Wectoring (caused by a glitch relating to DI).

Hmm... maybe Wario ends up with them as well... if people had a year of practice with this, Wario may be impossible to kill without an outright KO that never let's him out of hit stun...

 

[Newtonjar]

I remember greninja's up smash, *sigh those were good days.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Remember how "op" Rosalina was, making her the best character, before she became the most nerfed character in the game(maybe even of all time...17 nerfs is a bad thing).

 

[MarioMeteor]

Wario would still be an auditionee for Team Rocket, Mario would be doing 5% per up tilt, the wonderful nerf Greninja jokes wouldn't exist, Rosalina would be absolutely broken, Sheik, Diddy and Sonic would somehow be even more braindead than they are now, Luigi would still be fun to play, the game would be short four characters, Mewtwo fans would still cry their sodium-infused tiers, and many more.

To sum it up in short, this game and community would be several times worse off, there'd be ****storms and salt waves aplenty, and in terms of game balance, it'd be Melee all over again. So yeah, I suppose "not good" just about covers it.

 

[Zeekfox]

How bad was original Greninja? I didn't play the 3DS version, and trying to search gives me too many current results for videos.

 

[MarioMeteor]

How bad was original Greninja? I didn't play the 3DS version, and trying to search gives me too many current results for videos.

Original Greninja was pretty damn amazing. I think some people were calling him top tier.

 

[FieryRebirth]

I'm familiar with the series to know what happens in the Meta game for Smash games to not get patches(See: Brawl, Melee).

 

[Newtonjar]

Also luigi mains wouldn't have to be nearly as creative as they do now. Talking about broken characters I do definately agree that the top tier would include Diddy Kong, rosalina and luma, and shiek. Does anybody remember the regeneration time of luma when the first game came out?

 

[iVoltage]

Greninja would still be the god of gimps

 

[FalKoopa]

Mac's attacks would be safer. Luigi's grab game has been weakened in the new patches, apparently.

Though I'm remembering the pre-release no items, Bowser only, Spirit Train thing. That was good.

Also luigi mains wouldn't have to be nearly as creative as they do now. Talking about broken characters I do definately agree that the top tier would include Diddy Kong, rosalina and luma, and shiek. Does anybody remember the regeneration time of luma when the first game came out?

I think it was 7 seconds or so.

 

[ChikoLad]

Remember how "op" Rosalina was, making her the best character, before she became the most nerfed character in the game(maybe even of all time...17 nerfs is a bad thing).

Rosalina definitely has not received 17 nerfs.

I'd actually argue she got better since launch. She's worse in some ways, but overall, she's better and there is more you can do with her.

 

[Bedoop]

If we had 0.0.1;

• No DLC
• Hoo-Hah
• Greninja un-nerfed
• No DLC
• No Balancing
• Wario being near-impossible to kill
• No Smash Ballot
• No DLC

*cries*

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Rosalina definitely has not received 17 nerfs.

I'd actually argue she got better since launch. She's worse in some ways, but overall, she's better and there is more you can do with her.

...yet she has actually and most definitely had 17 nerfs.

 

[Newtonjar]

Rosalina definitely has not received 17 nerfs.

I'd actually argue she got better since launch. She's worse in some ways, but overall, she's better and there is more you can do with her.

I legitimately want to know why you think she is better now.

 

[Bedoop]

I legitimately want to know why you think she is better now.

She's better in every way.
To deal with, that is.

 

[ChikoLad]

I legitimately want to know why you think she is better now.

Luma is faster at getting around now, her moves have been better tweaked to give her more options (N-air was originally a subpar KO move which she didn't need because all of her other aerials are better KO moves, now it's a combo linker with it's reduced knockback that greatly improved her combo potential), her rapid jab is now better (doesn't lose it's "grip" on opponents as easily), Guardian Luma and Floaty Star Bit are better.

And the new shield mechanics benefit Rosalina more than most other characters. She can now perform an inescapable shield lock on ledges, and she can confirm grabs on opponents using stuff like Lunar Landing much easier now. She can also play some cool mind games involving hitting a characters shield and having Luma follow up the moment the opponent tries to retaliate. And overall her moves are safer on shield now.

Yes she saw a few nerfs, but most of them are inconsequential altogether (Luma has 50HP now as opposed to 52 at launch...oh wow dats such a hewg nurf meng), or are mitigated by a good player (the extension to Luma's respawn timer doesn't effect me much because I make it a point to preserve Luma and I can still fight as SoRo anyway).

At this point, her buffs outweigh the nerfs. She's harder to use now, but there are certain techniques she can perform now that she couldn't originally.

Pre-patch Rosalina was a little too easy to use and dominated in the early meta but people would have gotten used to her and she wouldn't have as many tricks up her sleeve to retaliate, and would have inevitably dropped significantly. Post-patch Rosalina is harder to use but has way more things she can do so she's harder to read and it's easy to develop new strategies for her compared to pre-patch Rosalina.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

ChikoLad Every nerf Rosaluma has gotten

1.0.4
•Luma respawn time: 8 seconds → 13 seconds
•Lumas can no longer attack if Rosalina is being thrown (though it still can during grabs).
•Down tilt timing: hits on 4-8 → hits on 5-8
•Down tilt hitbox 1 radius: 3.5 → 3.2
•Down tilt hitbox 2 radius: 3 → 2.5
•Forward smash knockback scaling: 115 → 111
•Up smash knockback scaling: 100 → 90
•Up smash hitbox 0 radius: 5.0 → 4.0
•Neutral aerial damage: 6% (early), 10% (late) → 5% (early), 7.5% (late)
•Neutral aerial hitbox radii: 5.0, 3.5 → 4.2, 3.0
•Forward aerial loop hit base knockback: 20/35 → 55
•Forward aerial last hit base knockback: 60 → 50
•Forward throw base knockback: 85 → 76
•Back throw base knockback: 70 → 60

1.0.6
•Luma health: 52 HP → 47 HP

1.0.8
•Rapid jab end knockback scaling: 170 → 150

1.1.1

•Looping hits of jab deal less damage: 2% → 1.7%.

 

[Tino]

We would still have all our very first replays saved.

 

[pikazz]

basically everyone have said what I wanted to say.

but I will add:
no change Jr (except for B which Jr doesnt use) and no change Jigglypuff.

however, -1% on everything on shulk on 0.0.1 version ;-;

 

[ChikoLad]

ChikoLad Every nerf Rosaluma has gotten

1.0.4
•Luma respawn time: 8 seconds → 13 seconds
•Lumas can no longer attack if Rosalina is being thrown (though it still can during grabs).
•Down tilt timing: hits on 4-8 → hits on 5-8
•Down tilt hitbox 1 radius: 3.5 → 3.2
•Down tilt hitbox 2 radius: 3 → 2.5
•Forward smash knockback scaling: 115 → 111
•Up smash knockback scaling: 100 → 90
•Up smash hitbox 0 radius: 5.0 → 4.0
•Neutral aerial damage: 6% (early), 10% (late) → 5% (early), 7.5% (late)
•Neutral aerial hitbox radii: 5.0, 3.5 → 4.2, 3.0
•Forward aerial loop hit base knockback: 20/35 → 55
•Forward aerial last hit base knockback: 60 → 50
•Forward throw base knockback: 85 → 76
•Back throw base knockback: 70 → 60

1.0.6
•Luma health: 52 HP → 47 HP

1.0.8
•Rapid jab end knockback scaling: 170 → 150

1.1.1

•Looping hits of jab deal less damage: 2% → 1.7%.

Half of those aren't technically nerfs though.

Like yeah, the N-air has less knockback now, but as I said before, that just gives Rosalina a better combo move. Similar case with her rapid jab, it doesn't let opponents slip out anymore as the damage reduction also equates to a slight knockback reduction (Fox and Falco have received similar improvements to their jabs over patches, IIRC). This in hindsight actually results in the move doing more damage than it used to, as the hits connect better. Same thing with her forward air, they reduced the knockback of some hits to make sure all of the hits connect.

Also this is the first I've heard of some of those so I question their legitimacy in some cases. That list is actually missing an old nerf/glitch fix to Guardian Luma too, from the first balance patch.

A nerf refers to something that makes the character blatantly worse in some aspect, but a slight damage or knockback reduction can actually make an otherwise subpar move a great combo move or fix a multihit move that didn't always connect properly. You're reading these changes in too black and white a fashion. Reductions to values =/= nerfs.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Half of those aren't technically nerfs though.

Like yeah, the N-air has less knockback now, but as I said before, that just gives Rosalina a better combo move. Similar case with her rapid jab, it doesn't let opponents slip out anymore as the damage reduction also equates to a slight knockback reduction (Fox and Falco have received similar improvements to their jabs over patches, IIRC). This in hindsight actually results in the move doing more damage than it used to, as the hits connect better. Same thing with her forward air, they reduced the knockback of some hits to make sure all of the hits connect.

Also this is the first I've heard of some of those so I question their legitimacy in some cases. That list is actually missing an old nerf/glitch fix to Guardian Luma too, from the first balance patch.

A nerf refers to something that makes the character blatantly worse in some aspect, but a slight damage or knockback reduction can actually make an otherwise subpar move a great combo move or fix a multihit move that didn't always connect properly. You're reading these changes in too black and white a fashion. Reductions to values =/= nerfs.

A nerf is a nerf none the less

 

[ChikoLad]

A nerf is a nerf none the less

That's my point though. Half of those things you listed aren't nerfs. It's a not a nerf if the reduced variable makes the character better (most obvious example being reducing a character's landing lag on some moves, or again, reducing knockback to provide a move that combos better).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That's my point though. Half of those things you listed aren't nerfs. It's a not a nerf if the reduced variable makes the character better (most obvious example being reducing a character's landing lag on some moves, or again, reducing knockback to provide a move that combos better).

That doesn't work out for everything. Whatever you say or claim, in the end it's still a nerf. Anything weakened or reduced is still a nerf.

 

[David Viran]

That doesn't work out for everything. Whatever you say or claim, in the end it's still a nerf. Anything weakened or reduced is still a nerf.

A nerf to what?

 

[ChikoLad]

That doesn't work out for everything. Whatever you say or claim, in the end it's still a nerf. Anything weakened or reduced is still a nerf.

No, a nerf is something that makes the character worse. Not just a reduction of a value (I mean not all nerfs ARE reductions of values so it doesn't make sense to say a reduction of a value is synonymous with a nerf).

Like Diddy had his Hoo-Hah nerfed to the point where it isn't really a thing anymore, which is an obvious nerf as without it he is not as good, but doing that required both reducing knockback on his U-air, and increasing knockback on his Down Throw. Notice how both a reduction and an increase of a value make up that nerf, not just a reduction.

So once again, nerfs and buffs are not as black and white as value reductions and increases. When people think "buff" or "nerf", they think of something that makes the character better or worse. For example, to say Rosalina's rapid jab was nerfed because of a .3% damage reduction is incredibly misleading. Calling it a nerf implies the move is worse, but that .3% damage reduction reduced the knockback of the rapid jab by a little bit too, which is a good thing, as you don't want rapid multi-hit moves to have too high a knockback or else the opponent gets out of them too easily and before you get the finisher in, which leaves you open. This was a huge annoyance with Rosalina's rapid jab before for those who played the character, but now that the move does a tiny bit less damage per hit and by extension, a little less knockback, the opponents don't escape so easily and by extension of that, you get more hits in, and therefore, MORE total damage from the multiple hits than you would have before. That's very clearly a move that's been slightly improved to be more effective than before, which is a buff. But you're listing that change as a nerf just because it had a reduction of a value, which misleads players, and also doesn't match the definition of the word:

In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that makes something less effective or desirable. The word can be used as a verb to describe that change.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

A nerf to what?

Anything

No, a nerf is something that makes the character worse. Not just a reduction of a value (I mean not all nerfs ARE reductions of values so it doesn't make sense to say a reduction of a value is synonymous with a nerf).

Like Diddy had his Hoo-Hah nerfed to the point where it isn't really a thing anymore, which is an obvious nerf as without it he is not as good, but doing that required both reducing knockback on his U-air, and increasing knockback on his Down Throw. Notice how both a reduction and an increase of a value make up that nerf, not just a reduction.

So once again, nerfs and buffs are not as black and white as value reductions and increases. When people think "buff" or "nerf", they think of something that makes the character better or worse. For example, to say Rosalina's rapid jab was nerfed because of a .3% damage reduction is incredibly misleading. Calling it a nerf implies the move is worse, but that .3% damage reduction reduced the knockback of the rapid jab by a little bit too, which is a good thing, as you don't want rapid multi-hit moves to have too high a knockback or else the opponent gets out of them too easily and before you get the finisher in, which leaves you open. This was a huge annoyance with Rosalina's rapid jab before for those who played the character, but now that the move does a tiny bit less damage per hit and by extension, a little less knockback, the opponents don't escape so easily and by extension of that, you get more hits in, and therefore, MORE total damage from the multiple hits than you would have before. That's very clearly a move that's been slightly improved to be more effective than before, which is a buff. But you're listing that change as a nerf just because it had a reduction of a value, which misleads players, and also doesn't match the definition of the word:

Well considering people don't think Rosalina's the 1st or 2nd best, the nerfs are affecting her. Look at Geninja or Sonic for example, they've been nerfed many times and they went down aswell. I respect you for backing up your main, but still doesn't mean she hasn't been lowered down, nerfed, or whatever you want to call it.

Well I'm done with my argument now, so game over I guess

 

[ChikoLad]

Anything

Well considering people don't think Rosalina's the 1st or 2nd best, the nerfs are affecting her. Look at Geninja or Sonic for example, they've been nerfed many times and they went down aswell. I respect you for backing up your main, but still doesn't mean she hasn't been lowered down, nerfed, or whatever you want to call it.

Well I'm done with my argument now, so game over I guess

Most people do agree Rosalina's second best though. Rosalina was also the second most used character within the Top 8 (behind Sheik) in the most recent big Smash tournament (Big House 5).

And since she was only BUFFED in the latest patch (buff to her rapid jab, new shield mechanics benefit her more than most other characters, and two of her customs were buffed), that really has no reason to change.

And that's only tier wise, if we go by objective potential wise, Rosalina is quite obviously the character who could be taken the farthest, but a lot of people just aren't bothered with that right now because characters like Sheik and ZSS are easier to get into and are more familiar to long time Smash players, and are frankly all you need in the current meta since it's in such a state of infancy.

Also "most people" thinking she isn't second on the tier list (but most people do anyway) wouldn't change my view anyway, since most people misinterpret Rosalina as a pure defense character, which limits their own potential with the character from the get go.

Something tells me you're just saying this stuff without really thinking about it and expect everything to be formulaic when it really doesn't work that way. Try thinking on your own instead of relying on what Smash Wiki patch notes say or a few vocal forum goers say.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Most people do agree Rosalina's second best though. Rosalina was also the second most used character within the Top 8 (behind Sheik) in the most recent big Smash tournament (Big House 5).

And since she was only BUFFED in the latest patch (buff to her rapid jab, new shield mechanics benefit her more than most other characters, and two of her customs were buffed), that really has no reason to change.

And that's only tier wise, if we go by objective potential wise, Rosalina is quite obviously the character who could be taken the farthest, but a lot of people just aren't bothered with that right now because characters like Sheik and ZSS are easier to get into and are more familiar to long time Smash players, and are frankly all you need in the current meta since it's in such a state of infancy.

Also "most people" thinking she isn't second on the tier list (but most people do anyway) wouldn't change my view anyway, since most people misinterpret Rosalina as a pure defense character, which limits their own potential with the character from the get go.

Something tells me you're just saying this stuff without really thinking about it and expect everything to be formulaic when it really doesn't work that way. Try thinking on your own instead of relying on what Smash Wiki patch notes say or a few vocal forum goers say.

Ike and Robin had alot of representation at Big House aswell, your point?

All buffs...and 1 nerf, not all buffs then.

Something tells me that you're gonna overly defend Rosalina no matter what. Also, in order to tell someone to think for themselves, you'd need to actually understand their side instead of being all like "you're formulaic". I don't call you a pervert when you talk about Rosalina's panties or women. Besides, I even test a character I like every patch, so don't try to be original and say to think for yourself if you know nothing about that person.

Well, I'm done

 

[ChikoLad]

Ike and Robin had alot of representation at Big House aswell, your point?

All buffs...and 1 nerf, not all buffs then.

Something tells me that you're gonna overly defend Rosalina no matter what. Also, in order to tell someone to think for themselves, you'd need to actually understand their side instead of being all like "you're formulaic". I don't call you a pervert when you talk about Rosalina's panties or women. Besides, I even test a character I like every patch, so don't try to be original and say to think for yourself if you know nothing about that person.

Well, I'm done

My point is that Rosalina is consistently one of the most common characters in high profile tourneys up to even the most recent tourney, and a lot of people are of the mindset that she IS the 2nd best in the game, so I don't know why you're implying she "isn't even top 3".

No, all buffs. Her rapid jab got buffed. Again, read the definition of the word "nerf", the move was not made less effective, it was made more effective. That's called a buff, not a nerf.

This isn't even me defending Rosalina, I am trying to correct your fundamental misunderstanding of a word you are misusing. If you misuse it with Rosalina, you will misuse it with other characters, maybe even in relation to other games. You're the one trying to make things personal and getting over defensive just because you don't want to admit to a mistake (that won't even be used to belittle you, I was only correcting you, not trying to attack you), going as far as to say I've to accuse me of talking about things I never have (for the record, I headcanon that Rosalina doesn't even WEAR panties due to the whole "cosmos beneath her gown" thing she has going on here in Smash, so I definitely haven't talked about panties :V). It's also completely off-topic and you had no reason to bring it up. I was saying you were looking at things in an overly formulaic, and black-and-white manner, because from what you've been displaying so far, you are.

So don't bother replying if you're gonna keep that poor attitude up. Nobody was attacking you, so you don't need to get nasty.

 

[David Viran]

My point is that Rosalina is consistently one of the most common characters in high profile tourneys up to even the most recent tourney, and a lot of people are of the mindset that she IS the 2nd best in the game,

Sorry to nitpick but the common consensus for second best in the game right now is zss.