If Update Patches didn't exist

[ChikoLad]

Sorry to nitpick but the common consensus for second best in the game right now is zss.

It differs. Most places I see say Rosalina. And most people put Pikachu above ZSS anyway. Sheik and Rosalina are the two S tiers though, with Pikachu and ZSS being at the top of A tier.

Which I'm inclined to agree with. ZSS is great but her weaknesses are much easier to exploit than Rosalina's and Pikachu's, and her strengths aren't as great. There's also the fact that Rosalina actually has a positive MU against Sheik, while ZSS has a negative one, which makes a world of difference in the tournament scene. ZSS also doesn't outright shut down as many characters as Rosalina.

 

[David Viran]

It differs. Most places I see say Rosalina. And most people put Pikachu above ZSS anyway. Sheik and Rosalina are the two S tiers though, with Pikachu and ZSS being at the top of A tier.

Which I'm inclined to agree with. ZSS is great but her weaknesses are much easier to exploit than Rosalina's and Pikachu's, and her strengths aren't as great. There's also the fact that Rosalina actually has a positive MU against Sheik, while ZSS has a negative one, which makes a world of difference in the tournament scene. ZSS also doesn't outright shut down as many characters as Rosalina.

Most of the japanese top players think she's number 2. Maybe zero, but he's always changing his mind, Larry lurr does, a lot of people on these boards, and even tho I don't particularly like reddit they think that too.

 

[ChikoLad]

Most of the japanese top players think she's number 2. Maybe zero, but he's always changing his mind, Larry lurr does, a lot of people on these boards, and even tho I don't particularly like reddit they think that too.

A lot of people on forums doesn't mean much because like I said a lot of people believe Rosalina is second too.

I can see ZSS being second on a tier list LATELY due to her being used more and her being easier to get into than Rosalina, but as far as potential goes, she's definitely not above Rosalina. Again, Rosalina is like, 1 of about 2 or 3 characters in the game that actually has a positive MU against Sheik, the perceived best character in the game, while ZSS has a negative MU against her. Considering how many people use Sheik, if you took a Rosalina player and a ZSS player of equal mastery with their characters, the Rosalina player would most likely go further because Rosalina is better equipped to handle that MU.

Rosalina also has an advantage against ZSS too. So it's only natural that ZSS would place below both Sheik and Rosalina. That's how I see it.

 

[David Viran]

A lot of people on forums doesn't mean much because like I said a lot of people believe Rosalina is second too.

I can see ZSS being second on a tier list LATELY due to her being used more and her being easier to get into than Rosalina, but as far as potential goes, she's definitely not above Rosalina. Again, Rosalina is like, 1 of about 2 or 3 characters in the game that actually has a positive MU against Sheik, the perceived best character in the game, while ZSS has a negative MU against her. Considering how many people use Sheik, if you took a Rosalina player and a ZSS player of equal mastery with their characters, the Rosalina player would most likely go further because Rosalina is better equipped to handle that MU.

Rosalina also has an advantage against ZSS too. So it's only natural that ZSS would place below both Sheik and Rosalina. That's how I see it.

Ok last thing i'm going to say. I may not know rosa but I have never heard of rosa winning the MU against sheik, ever. Rosa beating zss is very debatable. Dabuz has not beaten nairo's zss yet and it's not like them playing each other is uncommon, but you do you.

 

[ChikoLad]

Ok last thing i'm going to say. I may not know rosa but I have never heard of rosa winning the MU against sheik, ever. Rosa beating zss is very debatable. Dabuz has not beaten nairo's zss yet and it's not like them playing each other is uncommon, but you do you.

ZeRo himself has actually gone on record saying he thinks the Rosalina VS Sheik MU is "even or in Rosalina's favour, but not in Sheik's favour".

And ZSS isn't going to have a positive MU against Rosalina if Sheik doesn't, since Sheik is basically a better ZSS.

Also Dabuz is Dabuz. His biggest downfall is that he plays the character way too defensively and won't take risks, which screws him over. That's a Dabuz problem, not a Rosalina problem.

I'm tired now though so I'd really rather not start another tangent.

 

[Dabuz]

And ZSS isn't going to have a positive MU against Rosalina if Sheik doesn't, since Sheik is basically a better ZSS.

The character with the best punishes but a bad (for top tier neutral) is a worse version of the character with the best neutral but a mediocre punish game...? Ok

 

[ChikoLad]

The character with the best punishes but a bad (for top tier neutral) is a worse version of the character with the best neutral but a mediocre punish game...? Ok

Pretty much, because the latter goes farther than the former.

 

[Deleted member]

Holy hell, this game would be completely unbalanced.
If we didn't have balance patches, I guarantee the amount of Diddy Kongs would increase tenfold. Certain characters would be very overwhelming or even more overwhelming, such as Sheik or Rosalina. Maybe we might even see more Greninjas since was once able to cancel his landing lag from his aerials with his side B.
...In hindsight, I am glad that we are getting balance patches. I just wish that they addressed what makes some bad characters bad.

 

[Foxus]

The thing about the updates patches, specifically with the characters, is a bit unsettling to me. The updates can continuously improve the game, but at the same time keep it unbalanced in MU's. A update can come and make one character stronger and one weaker in a attempt to equalize the characters.

It worries me that Fox is weaker in SSB4 than in Brawl or Melee.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario would not have some of his awesome stuff he has now, namely his GOAT UpSmash and Fair that actually works even if the move is still not that great overall.

Ganon's aerial landing lag would still suck, DK wouldn't be able to take stocks as good, Marth would still be bad......Ike would be a good deal less potent....

Crazy how much patches have done for this game!

 

[TheJolteon]

Sheik and DIddy would be in SS tier, Rosalina, sonic and luigi would be considered really brain dead, characters like Ike, robin, marth,meta knight, and donkey kong would recieve no representation, wario woould not be able to die, people would use the pac-man glitch in doubles all the time, vectoring would still be a thing, Bowser would still be a thing, no better nerf greninja jokes, and little mac would also still be a thing. Yea we totally need patches. BTW rosalina is like 4th in the game.

 

[TheJolteon]

ZeRo himself has actually gone on record saying he thinks the Rosalina VS Sheik MU is "even or in Rosalina's favour, but not in Sheik's favour".

And ZSS isn't going to have a positive MU against Rosalina if Sheik doesn't, since Sheik is basically a better ZSS.

Also Dabuz is Dabuz. His biggest downfall is that he plays the character way too defensively and won't take risks, which screws him over. That's a Dabuz problem, not a Rosalina problem.

I'm tired now though so I'd really rather not start another tangent.

ZeRo said that like 8 months ago so I bet his opinion has changed considering all the times ZeRo has dominated Dabuz

 

[ChikoLad]

ZeRo said that like 8 months ago so I bet his opinion has changed considering all the times ZeRo has dominated Dabuz

That definitely wasn't 8 months ago. It was 4 months ago, actually. This was also after ZeRo's trash talk fest with Dabuz on Twitter.

It's not hard to see why though, if you know the match up. Also, Sheik has been slightly nerfed and Rosalina slightly buffed since then, and in terms of strategies people use in the MU, not much has changed.

 

[TheJolteon]

That definitely wasn't 8 months ago. It was 4 months ago, actually. This was also after ZeRo's trash talk fest with Dabuz on Twitter.

It's not hard to see why though, if you know the match up. Also, Sheik has been slightly nerfed and Rosalina slightly buffed since then, and in terms of strategies people use in the MU, not much has changed.

I can only think of 1 time when Rosalina was buffed and many times where she has been nerfed and correction it was 4 months ago

 

[David Viran]

5 months and the game has only been out for a year, if we count the 3ds, so that's almost half the games life.

 

[TheJolteon]

5 months and the game has only been out for a year, if we count the 3ds, so that's almost half the games life.

Checked and it said 4 months ago

 

[David Viran]

It came out 5/20/15 and it's now 10/15/15. Only 5 days off from being 5 months.

 

[ChikoLad]

I can only think of 1 time when Rosalina was buffed and many times where she has been nerfed and correction it was 4 months ago

I literally listed 3 buffs she got in patch 1.1.1 in this very topic.

 

[TheJolteon]

I literally listed 3 buffs she got in patch 1.1.1 in this very topic.

How about we say that she is just top 5 and call it a day.

 

[Egg.]

We would still have GIGA YOSHI and teleggporting! The second one was really weird and justifiably removed, but why did they have to take my giant yoshi away... T_T

 

[Kevandre]

Man I used to kick so much ass as in the early days. But not since patches, unfortunately.

Still, they're #worth. Losing in exchange for & is absolutely worth it

 

[LancerStaff]

To be honest... The game wouldn't of been as rushed. I don't think we've ever had a bug as major and obvious as Wectoring slip into a Smash. I'd also bet our top tiers would of been much more conservatively built from the beginning.

 

[Raijinken]

To be honest... The game wouldn't of been as rushed. I don't think we've ever had a bug as major and obvious as Wectoring slip into a Smash. I'd also bet our top tiers would of been much more conservatively built from the beginning.

Past games strongly suggest that neither of these are necessarily true. Crazy bugs (Link's boomerang things in Melee, infinite Dimensional Cape, wobbling) are rather staples of the series at this point. To say nothing of Meta Knight.

 

[LancerStaff]

Past games strongly suggest that neither of these are necessarily true. Crazy bugs (Link's boomerang things in Melee, infinite Dimensional Cape, wobbling) are rather staples of the series at this point. To say nothing of Meta Knight.

I imagine Sakurai's learned his lesson by this point... Which is why he went with Namco in the first place. Still not saying it'd be as balanced as it is now of course, but it seems like there was a lot of experimental things in the beginning too. Like WFT's air dodge having half the normal landing lag.

 

[CrazyPerson]

I imagine Sakurai's learned his lesson by this point... Which is why he went with Namco in the first place. Still not saying it'd be as balanced as it is now of course, but it seems like there was a lot of experimental things in the beginning too. Like WFT's air dodge having half the normal landing lag.

Expletive Glitches will exist in just about every game.

As hard as game testers and developers will try... within a day of release the player base has put more hours into it than testers and designers have put into it... and that gab grows exponentially from there. (though does slow down after a while, as games have more players when new.) Furthermore, there are people in the player base that are a heck a lot more motivated to find any small advantage that they can... and a large one is even better. Doubtful there will ever be a glitch free game, even more doubtful one that is competitive, even more doubtful a competitive one at launch.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Pac-Man would still have trampolines that send you to the Shadow Realm upon contact.

 

[Solutionme]

Gordo would actually be a good tool. Cut that, a better tool.

 

[W.A.C.]

Yoshi and Diddy Kong would still be godlike, but Meta Knight would suck. Top 12 at MLG would've been completely different and ZeRo's win streak probably would've lasted way longer because of how amazing he is with Diddy Kong.

 

[TurboLink]

Are we talking 1.0.0 3ds version original? If that's the case we would have sheik's stupidly strong BF and uair. Vectoring changed a lot of characters it just wasn't noticed really because the game hadn't been out for that long. Like for instance diddy's hoo hah and luigi's throw combos were less reliable with vectoring.

Just how strong were Sheik's Bouncing fish and uair in the past? I've always seen people say she's always had bad kill power.

 

[David Viran]

Just how strong were Sheik's Bouncing fish and uair in the past? I've always seen people say she's always had bad kill power.

BF used to kill Mario near the ledge at 100% without rage. Now it doesn't kill Mario at 120. Dthrow uair killed at percents like 100-110 reliably with out rage.

 

[Simperheve]

If we still had no patches I'd be trolling my brother with Luigi's d-throw -> up-b combo. Those were the days!

 

[Newtonjar]

If we still had no patches I'd be trolling my brother with Luigi's d-throw -> up-b combo. Those were the days!

That's still works at certain percentages.

 

[TriforceOfAura]

Well, we can gripe about balance patches all we want *laughs*, but if we look as if there were never any... we could actually work on developing a solid meta, and not have whiny scrubs complaining about this character or another. "Oh, Little Mac's too powerful. Nerf him, and the game will be fair". "Now Diddy and Greninja are too overpowered. Nerf them, and the game will be fair." You may as well remove Luma from the game, give a huge knockback to all of Sheik's moves, cripple ZSS's paralyzer, destroy Pikachu's killing moves, remove Sonic's combo game, give Roy recoil damage for all his moves, remove Lucario's Aura mechanic, remove the Knee of Justice, kill Ness's back-throw, up-air, and side smash, and completely trash Lucas's up and down smashes and remove his bair meteor. *sighs* Why don't we just nerf the crap out of everyone?

 

[Newtonjar]

Yoshi and Diddy Kong would still be godlike, but Meta Knight would suck. Top 12 at MLG would've been completely different and ZeRo's win streak probably would've lasted way longer because of how amazing he is with Diddy Kong.

I don't recall yoshi getting any nerfs of any significance in fact I think yoshi has been one of the least touched characters.

 

[Solutionme]

I don't recall yoshi getting any nerfs of any significance in fact I think yoshi has been one of the least touched characters.

Glitch fixes mostly.

 

[VPTurnip]

That doesn't work out for everything. Whatever you say or claim, in the end it's still a nerf. Anything weakened or reduced is still a nerf.

That makes absolutely no logical sense. What? Reducing something to make a character better = nerf. Okay. Whatever lol. Not trying to be rude but try taking that argument over to a Tekken or Street Fighter forum for a moment and see how it goes xD

Also I miss flying Wario. God that was hilarious.

I don't miss pre-patch Greninja or Little Mac, however.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That makes absolutely no logical sense. What? Reducing something to make a character better = nerf. Okay. Whatever lol. Not trying to be rude but try taking that argument over to a Tekken or Street Fighter forum for a moment and see how it goes xD

Also I miss flying Wario. God that was hilarious.

I don't miss pre-patch Greninja or Little Mac, however.

Why bring back up a topic that already ended? Besides, if it's called a nerf...it's a nerf. I ain't going through this again, so it dies now.

 

[W.A.C.]

I don't recall yoshi getting any nerfs of any significance in fact I think yoshi has been one of the least touched characters.

Yoshi had more end lag add to his down air and dash attack, plus more startup was added to Yoshi's neutral special. All three of these nerfs hurt Yoshi badly. His dash attack used to true combo into itself and true combo into up air, which made his juggling game godlike. The additional startup to Yoshi's neutral special made his lackluster grab game more of a problem than it was before and the added end lag to down air made that move more punishable. Yoshi also used to be able to do some egg sliding shenanigans near the ledge that was patched out with 1.0.8. Patches hurt Yoshi way more than a lot of people realize, but at least 1.10 and 1.11 were good patches for Yoshi. Having his back air auto-link better made the move much better and the additional hit-stun to shields helped to makes his fair and dair considerably safer on shield.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

If the game were realized the same way as it was at launch.. I don't know if it would last or not honestly, it was slower than now.. Diddy Kong and Sheik reigned supreme.. I'd probably just give up on it and go back to Project M honestly, haha.

I don't recall yoshi getting any nerfs of any significance in fact I think yoshi has been one of the least touched characters.

No, they #rekt Yoshi with certain patch(es)...

 

[Cylent]

Meta : Hoo-hah!